Tyler Dibling

[Barsiem]

4 hours ago, skintsaint said:

since Yan Valery...or Smallbone, not as good as Shaw granted but both part of the first team squad.

Not what I would call a first teamer, but obvs that’s up for interpretation.   Compared to players like Mount, James, Tomori, Sancho, Foden and others though it’s clear to me which academies offer the better option for a player to develop currently

[Charlie Wayman]

19 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

Not what I would call a first teamer, but obvs that’s up for interpretation.   Compared to players like Mount, James, Tomori, Sancho, Foden and others though it’s clear to me which academies offer the better option for a player to develop currently

Yeah but everything has changed at Staplewood and Britannia Road since then, that was then this is now.

[The Cat]

49 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

Not what I would call a first teamer, but obvs that’s up for interpretation.   Compared to players like Mount, James, Tomori, Sancho, Foden and others though it’s clear to me which academies offer the better option for a player to develop currently

The difference with Man City and Chelsea academies to ours are that the hoover up an enormous amount of talent at a young age because they have the resources to throw loads of money into scouting and offering the kids parents houses etc.

Then when the players get to 16 they offer them silly money to stay, whereas Saints lose players to them like Dibling this year and the kid last year who went to City (sorry, forgot his name) because of the money on offer.

There's no doubt our academy went through a lull and has failed to produce regular first team players for a while but this has been rectified by appointing good people at the top and better recruitment which means we now have an exciting group of players at U18 and plenty more behind them to come.

We have kids regularly representing their national sides at young age groups and successful youth sides for the first time since the days of Reed, Gallagher, Sims, Hesketh etc. Fingers crossed we see a lot more academy players in and around the first team this season.

 

 

[Barsiem]

26 minutes ago, The Cat said:

The difference with Man City and Chelsea academies to ours are that the hoover up an enormous amount of talent at a young age because they have the resources to throw loads of money into scouting and offering the kids parents houses etc.

Then when the players get to 16 they offer them silly money to stay, whereas Saints lose players to them like Dibling this year and the kid last year who went to City (sorry, forgot his name) because of the money on offer.

There's no doubt our academy went through a lull and has failed to produce regular first team players for a while but this has been rectified by appointing good people at the top and better recruitment which means we now have an exciting group of players at U18 and plenty more behind them to come.

We have kids regularly representing their national sides at young age groups and successful youth sides for the first time since the days of Reed, Gallagher, Sims, Hesketh etc. Fingers crossed we see a lot more academy players in and around the first team this season.

 

 

Don’t get me wrong, I do rate our academy - the likes of Dibling prove it’s worth.  However it is just another world where we can aim to be best of the rest, but cannot afford to compete with the likes of Chelsea and City who pay the best rates for both coaches and players, as well as facilities.  Sadly for me it’s a no brainier for a player to join one of those two over Saints

[Daft Kerplunk]

53 minutes ago, Barsiem said:

Don’t get me wrong, I do rate our academy - the likes of Dibling prove it’s worth.  However it is just another world where we can aim to be best of the rest, but cannot afford to compete with the likes of Chelsea and City who pay the best rates for both coaches and players, as well as facilities.  Sadly for me it’s a no brainier for a player to join one of those two over Saints

Paying players (and parents) is something we would struggle to compete with but coaches, not so. There is no reason why we can’t attract the best youth coaches, we just have to be willing to do so. Facilities, similar but ours are good enough for what is needed. 

[Saint Troy]

15 minutes ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

Paying players (and parents) is something we would struggle to compete with but coaches, not so. There is no reason why we can’t attract the best youth coaches, we just have to be willing to do so. Facilities, similar but ours are good enough for what is needed. 

Agree to a point but its not easy to attract the best youth coaches if you cant hold on to the best youth, how do you think the youth team coaches feel about Diblings imminent departure, id imagine gutted and not wanting to be in a position where the best talent leaves

[daldridge7]

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-newcastle-and-chelsea-in-race-to-sign-southampton-sensation-tyler-dibling/

Edited 11 July, 2022 by daldridge7

[Ken Tone]

It's always a shame to see a promising youngster leave, but it's pretty hypocritical of us to complain when we do the same to other, smaller, clubs, signing their promising youngsters  -   eg that Cheltenham player this year. Even Jack Stephens was taken from Plymouth as a 16 (?) year old I think.

Besides, who knows if Dibling will fulfill his promise?  So many "next top players" don't.  Its not long since Callum Slattery was supposedly going to be a top top player. 

Come day, go day.

[Daft Kerplunk]

12 hours ago, Saint Troy said:

Agree to a point but its not easy to attract the best youth coaches if you cant hold on to the best youth, how do you think the youth team coaches feel about Diblings imminent departure, id imagine gutted and not wanting to be in a position where the best talent leaves

Can’t disagree but I reckon they’ll be happy to know they have got the players that far…if they make it of course 😎

[Katalinic]

13 hours ago, Saint Troy said:

Agree to a point but its not easy to attract the best youth coaches if you cant hold on to the best youth, how do you think the youth team coaches feel about Diblings imminent departure, id imagine gutted and not wanting to be in a position where the best talent leaves

They want players to stay for the right reasons. Players or parents of, chasing money at 16 don't necessarily have the attitude to development that the club are looking for.  I think the fans are gnashing their teeth rather than the staff who are more pragmatic.

Edited 11 July, 2022 by Katalinic

[Dusic]

Chelsea's record of getting talent through their academy and into their first team and/or other top level teams is pretty unrivalled in recent years:

James, Mount, Chalobah, Hudson-Odoi, Abraham, Broja, Tomori, Guehi, Livramento, Gallagher, Lamptey without mentioning Ake and Christensen and soon to be the likes of Colwill, Maatsen etc.

Easy to argue if you are a top talent like Dibling then Chelsea is a great place to go and kick on to a top career.

 

Edited 11 July, 2022 by Dusic

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, Katalinic said:

They want players to stay for the right reasons. Players or parents of, chasing money at 16 don't necessarily have the attitude to development that the club are looking for.  I think the fans are gnashing their teeth rather than the staff who are more pragmatic.

How come leaving means chasing the money, but staying does not?

being at a premier league academy in the first place probably comes with a level of riches. 
 

unless you think he is at Saints out of charity?

Edited 11 July, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Katalinic]

5 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

How come leaving means chasing the money, but staying does not?

being at a premier league academy in the first place probably comes with a level of riches. 
 

unless you think he is at Saints out of charity?

He has been offered a relative fortune at 16, significantly more than Saints pay at that age - most people in that position would do the same so no judgement here. The question the poster posed was how the youth coaches feel about it.

[tajjuk]

9 hours ago, Dusic said:

Chelsea's record of getting talent through their academy and into their first team and/or other top level teams is pretty unrivalled in recent years:

James, Mount, Chalobah, Hudson-Odoi, Abraham, Broja, Tomori, Guehi, Livramento, Gallagher, Lamptey without mentioning Ake and Christensen and soon to be the likes of Colwill, Maatsen etc.

Easy to argue if you are a top talent like Dibling then Chelsea is a great place to go and kick on to a top career.

 

Most of those came through because of their transfer ban. 

Hudson-Odoi is not playing and seemingly wants to leave for more football, Lamptey left, Tino left for more football, Broja wants more football, Guehi left for more football, Tomori and Abraham had both established themselves, done well and then basically got dumped for foreign imports and then got sold to get more football. Colwill wants to leave if there isn't a pathway. 

I think all it shows is Chelsea hoover up a lot of talent (plus there is a huge talent pool in London), it doesn't show it's a good place to actually develop and get a chance in the first team. They had that forced onto them and as soon as the transfer ban was over they went out and spent like £200 million. Chalobah only got into the team last year because they had a mass injury crisis. 

They also have a previous record of signing young players and despite being extremely talented completely wasting them. Salah and De Bruyne being two high profile examples. 

If he's going then he's going for money, he's not getting near that Chelsea team any time soon and will likely end up on bunch of loans farmed out all over the place, and will probably in 2-3 years time be looking to move on because there is no pathway to the first team. If he wants to play then he has a much better chance here, we have a much better record of giving young players chances and he has already been involved with the first team. He'd likely be training with the first team here if he stayed and would probably get some chances to play. At Chelsea he will at best get into their U23s and probably won't get a sniff near their first team for the whole of the contract he is about to sign. 

Edited 12 July, 2022 by tajjuk

[Turkish]

10 hours ago, Katalinic said:

They want players to stay for the right reasons. Players or parents of, chasing money at 16 don't necessarily have the attitude to development that the club are looking for.  I think the fans are gnashing their teeth rather than the staff who are more pragmatic.

Or  alternatively they want to play and be coached at the highest level possible and they back him to be a success at a club more successful than we will ever be.

Welcome to the layer cake son.

Edited 12 July, 2022 by Turkish

[Dman]

5 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Most of those came through because of their transfer ban. 

Hudson-Odoi is not playing and seemingly wants to leave for more football, Lamptey left, Tino left for more football, Broja wants more football, Guehi left for more football, Tomori and Abraham had both established themselves, done well and then basically got dumped for foreign imports and then got sold to get more football. Colwill wants to leave if there isn't a pathway. 

I think all it shows is Chelsea hoover up a lot of talent (plus there is a huge talent pool in London), it doesn't show it's a good place to actually develop and get a chance in the first team. They had that forced onto them and as soon as the transfer ban was over they went out and spent like £200 million. Chalobah only got into the team last year because they had a mass injury crisis. 

They also have a previous record of signing young players and despite being extremely talented completely wasting them. Salah and De Bruyne being two high profile examples. 

If he's going then he's going for money, he's not getting near that Chelsea team any time soon and will likely end up on bunch of loans farmed out all over the place, and will probably in 2-3 years time be looking to move on because there is no pathway to the first team. If he wants to play then he has a much better chance here, we have a much better record of giving young players chances and he has already been involved with the first team. He'd likely be training with the first team here if he stayed and would probably get some chances to play. At Chelsea he will at best get into their U23s and probably won't get a sniff near their first team for the whole of the contract he is about to sign. 

There may not be a pathway at Chelsea, however all of those examples are playing for Mid table PL clubs or higher. 

With us, you either make it in the first team or end up L2 or lower. 

In recent years, Chelsea’s success rate of bringing through PL standard players is significantly better than ours. 

 

[Barsiem]

8 minutes ago, Dman said:

There may not be a pathway at Chelsea, however all of those examples are playing for Mid table PL clubs or higher. 

With us, you either make it in the first team or end up L2 or lower. 

In recent years, Chelsea’s success rate of bringing through PL standard players is significantly better than ours. 

 

Was just about to post something similar.  The main goal for Dibling is to make it as a professional footballer at the highest possible level, not to break into the Chelsea first team - that would just be a bonus and a sign he’s a really great player.  Playing with the best paid, and therefore likely much better than average, coaches - as well as alongside some of the best players in his age bracket gives him the best chance of this.  The money thing is just a bonus

 

[Saint86]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

There may not be a pathway at Chelsea, however all of those examples are playing for Mid table PL clubs or higher. 

With us, you either make it in the first team or end up L2 or lower. 

In recent years, Chelsea’s success rate of bringing through PL standard players is significantly better than ours. 

 

That is a very negative way to view it. I'd argue its more nuanced - we're now coming out of the back end of our league 1 youth recruitment for u8s etc, and what was a period where the academy was underfunded and the coachingf setup etc was picked apart by other clubs such as Fulham (who then went through a top quality academy setup). 10years ago we had only just returned to the prem, and it's after this that money started being put back into the academy, the facilities, the coaches, player recruitment etc.

Fast forward 10years, and we're back to having one of the best u18s sides in the country. So to say that our u18s just end up in league 2 ignores entirely our track record going back decades and focuses largely on the end product of a team crashing down the league's, in administration, and of a 3rd tier teams player / coaching recruitment setup. We are only really shaking up coaching properly this summer for the first team etc. 

I have little doubt that the academy sides will be of a much better standard going forward. 

Edited 12 July, 2022 by Saint86

[tajjuk]

17 hours ago, Dman said:

There may not be a pathway at Chelsea, however all of those examples are playing for Mid table PL clubs or higher. 

With us, you either make it in the first team or end up L2 or lower. 

In recent years, Chelsea’s success rate of bringing through PL standard players is significantly better than ours. 

 

Not really, like I said they just hoover up a lot of talent and then don't use it very well. A lot of those players only got a chance (and thus their subsequent moves in many cases) because of the transfer ban, without that who knows whether they would have made the step up or the step up that early. 

If you are stealing some of the best young talent around then of course you will have more players make it through to a higher level, it's just simple numbers. In Chelsea's catchment area there are probably 10+ million people. 

How many good players made it through in the Mourinho years? Not that many. You are just focusing on the very recent where they have had a decent crop and that is in itself lucky, and many of those got there chances to impress because of the transfer ban. Saying they bring through 'PL player' is a massive oversimplification, not saying Chelsea don't have a good academy but the level of training you get is going to be very good at any category 1 academy. What makes a PL player is getting that playing time to develop and learn, which Chelsea consistently doesn't offer. 

All academies go through peaks and troughs in talent, sometimes the players just aren't there which is the case with us but its looking more likely some talent is coming through considering the performances of our youth teams, as mentioned above. Man Utd haven't in recent times brought through a lot of players, despite being a great talent factory in the past. Chelsea are just having one of those peaks, but saying go to Chelsea you'll have a higher chance to make it a PL player is just nonsense IMO. 

[stevy777_x]

I m surprised its taking so long to announce his departure. Maybe he hasn t made his mind up and still debating on whether to stay?

[S-Clarke]

10 minutes ago, stevy777_x said:

I m surprised its taking so long to announce his departure. Maybe he hasn t made his mind up and still debating on whether to stay?

Do we often announce kids leaving? Wouldn't be unusual for this to have already happened and the first we'd know about it would be Chelsea's or Newcastle's U18 team sheet next season.

[qwertyell]

54 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Do we often announce kids leaving? Wouldn't be unusual for this to have already happened and the first we'd know about it would be Chelsea's or Newcastle's U18 team sheet next season.

Don't recall us announcing Max Alleyne joining City from the academy last summer. Think he announced it himself on social media.

Pretty much the same scenario - turned down a scholarship because he got a better offer. 

[SaintLondon]

Confirmed to Chelsea according to Secret Scout

[Saint Matty 76]

A better move than Newcastle, the wage they’ve apparently offered is obscene so we were never going to compete on that front.

I said it before but even if he completely flops (which lots of promising players at this age do) he’s going to earn £2-3m minimum if they’ve handed him a 4 year deal. I can see why you’d do it but I’d struggle to say it’s a positive career move for him.

[AlexLaw76]

Probably gone to the best set up in the country at that level

Fair play to him

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

Not fussed. We will buy him back off Chelsea for £5m when he's 19 anyway.

[Fabrice29]

2 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

A better move than Newcastle, the wage they’ve apparently offered is obscene so we were never going to compete on that front.

I said it before but even if he completely flops (which lots of promising players at this age do) he’s going to earn £2-3m minimum if they’ve handed him a 4 year deal. I can see why you’d do it but I’d struggle to say it’s a positive career move for him.

Really? Bigger club, bigger platform and therefore a bigger ceiling. He'll back himself to be good enough to make the step up in 3 years at Chelsea, if it doesn't happen he'll be just as relevant as Tino, Colwill, Lampety etc etc and back himself to be good enough to get a similar move that they all did. if he stayed here and got himself in the first team in say 2 years? Okay he's made a name for himself a little earlier but he's also needing Chelsea or whoever to pay out much bigger money for him and he's just one of many kids in the world. He's got his move to the big club early and can make his move on his own terms and from within. Presuming he and his advisors believe in his ability and they're not just cashing in now, then I see it as a pretty ideal move and relatively risk free (injuries etc aside).

[Saint Matty 76]

8 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Really? Bigger club, bigger platform and therefore a bigger ceiling. He'll back himself to be good enough to make the step up in 3 years at Chelsea, if it doesn't happen he'll be just as relevant as Tino, Colwill, Lampety etc etc and back himself to be good enough to get a similar move that they all did. if he stayed here and got himself in the first team in say 2 years? Okay he's made a name for himself a little earlier but he's also needing Chelsea or whoever to pay out much bigger money for him and he's just one of many kids in the world. He's got his move to the big club early and can make his move on his own terms and from within. Presuming he and his advisors believe in his ability and they're not just cashing in now, then I see it as a pretty ideal move and relatively risk free (injuries etc aside).

Short term it’s a bad career move. Nothing more to it than that.

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

Short term it’s a bad career move. Nothing more to it than that.

Reality says otherwise.

[Saint Matty 76]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Reality says otherwise.

Their academy player of the year had to seek a move to keep his career moving along.

Dibling isn’t even to that level, he’ll have made money but on a professional level, talking about his footballing career, he’ll be finding a way out in a few years and trying to get back to a level where he could’ve been now.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Saint Matty 76 said:

Their academy player of the year had to seek a move to keep his career moving along.

Dibling isn’t even to that level, he’ll have made money but on a professional level, talking about his footballing career, he’ll be finding a way out in a few years and trying to get back to a level where he could’ve been now.

The goal is to play top level football.  Chelsea have an enormous number of players, who were part of their younger setups, doing just that.  Probably the most in England, and likely to be the world at this time.

Edited 13 July, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Saint Matty 76]

5 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The goal is to play top level football.  Chelsea have an enormous number of players, who were part of their younger setups, doing just that.  Probably the most in England, and likely to be the world at this time.

That doesn’t change the fact that he won’t be playing Premier League football in the next few years unless he moves again. 

I understand the ultimate goal is to end up at a club like Chelsea, but he could’ve done that as a better player.

Lots of hypothetical arguments regardless, but I imagine this will be a player we just forget about now.

[Dman]

2 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

That doesn’t change the fact that he won’t be playing Premier League football in the next few years unless he moves again. 

I understand the ultimate goal is to end up at a club like Chelsea, but he could’ve done that as a better player.

Lots of hypothetical arguments regardless, but I imagine this will be a player we just forget about now.

I’m sure people thought the same of Jamal Musiala when he left us for Chelsea….

[Suhari]

Apparently we have a good relationship with Chelsea. The write up about our young keeper moving there was interesting. So prefer Dibling to go there than Newcastle.

Maybe he'll become a regular first teamer for them; maybe he won't push on at all. Whatever: good luck to the young man.

[Saint Matty 76]

5 minutes ago, Dman said:

I’m sure people thought the same of Jamal Musiala when he left us for Chelsea….

I mean we can all pick out one example of thousands. 

Plus I don't think it's remotely comparable considering Musiala was here for a matter of months.

[Dman]

12 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

I mean we can all pick out one example of thousands. 

Plus I don't think it's remotely comparable considering Musiala was here for a matter of months.

1 out of a thousand… Chelsea, in recent years, have produced loads of players playing at the top level. All across Europe. 

[Saint Matty 76]

1 minute ago, Dman said:

1 out of a thousand… Chelsea, in recent years, have produced loads of players playing at the top level. All across Europe. 

Feel like I'm just going to keep repeating myself so I'll leave it there, hope the kid does alright.

[The Cat]

Sorry for the vague "he's not going to Newcastle" posts but I was asked not to say anything.

Apparently the offer he had from Chelsea was more than Newcastle, and staying in the South made it an easy decision once they came in for him.

Good luck to him.

[Dman]

22 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Sorry for the vague "he's not going to Newcastle" posts but I was asked not to say anything.

Apparently the offer he had from Chelsea was more than Newcastle, and staying in the South made it an easy decision once they came in for him.

Good luck to him.

Did we try and keep him? I.e match the offer at all? 
 

If he’s gone for c.7k, that’s not much for a first team player (if we rated him that highly). 

[The Cat]

Just now, Dman said:

Did we try and keep him? I.e match the offer at all? 
 

If he’s gone for c.7k, that’s not much for a first team player (if we rated him that highly). 

I don't know if we did or not.

Chelsea's offer was higher than Newcastle's and described to me as "insane" but I don't know how much.

[davefizzy14]

10 minutes ago, The Cat said:

I don't know if we did or not.

Chelsea's offer was higher than Newcastle's and described to me as "insane" but I don't know how much.

I'm still hoping this isn't true. He's a phenomenal talent. 

[Toadhall Saint]

37 minutes ago, The Cat said:

Sorry for the vague "he's not going to Newcastle" posts but I was asked not to say anything.

Apparently the offer he had from Chelsea was more than Newcastle, and staying in the South made it an easy decision once they came in for him.

Good luck to him.

Yep can’t keep them all.

[VectisSaint]

2 hours ago, Ivan Katalinic's 'tache said:

Not fussed. We will buy him back off Chelsea for £5m when he's 19 anyway.

This, as I said before if he goes to Chelsea there is a decent chance we will get him back. If he had gone to the hot bed of youth football that is Newcastle he would have just been lost.

[farawaysaint]

Good luck to the lad, always sad to lose a top prospect but they’re a great side for youngsters as well and we cannot compete financially.

 

[Crab Lungs]

4 hours ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

I mean we can all pick out one example of thousands. 

Plus I don't think it's remotely comparable considering Musiala was here for a matter of months.

Bloody hell… colwill, musiala, dibling… some talents in recent years I guess

[skintsaint]

Seems like Everton having a similar fate with one of their top prospects

https://www.footballinsider247.com/sources-man-city-set-to-beat-man-united-to-sign-everton-sensation-emilio-lawrence/

Wonder if this continues an adjustment of rules may happen.

[Dusic]

The two issues are:

1. Players can't sign pro deals until they are 17 so until then its a wild west.

2. Due to Brexit (sigh) its hard to sign foreign youngsters so the market for the best British lads is even more fierce.

Hopefully Kami Doyle agreed a pro deal when we signed his scholarship. We should find out when he turns 17 which I think is in August.

Bit of a strange situstion whereby you want to push these players on but also in some ways not give them too much exposure until they are signed to pro terms. Would Dibling still be a Saints plauer if we hadnt played him in the B team game at SJP?

Also wonder what impact only being in Div2 of the PL2 causes? These players are used to always playing against the other best kids of their age group and then all of a sudden get to the B team and are not playing Chelsea, City etc. Hopefully get promoted this season.

Great to see the academy win trophies but ultimately 12 or 13 of the U18s squad of 15 won't ever play first team football for us, so frustrating to lose one of the two or three who more likely would have done.

 

[Saint86]

Any indication of what compensation saints will get? Doubt it will be much (relative) if he's as good as rumoured and we end up watching him in the champions league and playing for england in 5 years time.

Feels like the developing club routinely get shafted in these deals.

Edited 14 July, 2022 by Saint86

[SuperSAINT]

Brighton getting raided… 

 

[Saint86]

Just seen we sold Beech to Chelsea for 250k? Surely not! Having our pants pulled down if that's what we're losing our best youngster for!