Are Saints funds being used to fund a Turkish Div 2 club?

[Nolan]

13 hours ago, rallyboy said:

I've never been convinced by the idea of buying players from clubs that have just proved that they weren't good enough - for every jewel there must be 50 Championship players who will get relegated again.

Searching through bins for a tasty snack is a slightly flawed approach.

Issue with this argument is that Goztepe have just released so many players that pretty much none playing there this upcoming season would have been involved in the relegated Squad.

they're apparently planning on 11-14 incomings.

[SuperSAINT]

2 minutes ago, Nolan said:

Issue with this argument is that Goztepe have just released so many players that pretty much none playing there this upcoming season would have been involved in the relegated Squad.

they're apparently planning on 11-14 incomings.

Nolan, any idea of the comparable quality of that league?  I wonder if any academy lads might go there?

[Nolan]

32 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

Nolan, any idea of the comparable quality of that league?  I wonder if any academy lads might go there?

looking at values of players you're hard pressed to find a Turkish 2nd division club with a value much higher of £12 million for the entirety of the Squad

[Dman]

8 hours ago, Chez said:

I don't think there's been any in recent years, but if you go back there have been a few plucked from relegation sides that have done OK afterwards

Jonny Evans, Fabianski, Jordan Ayew, Shaquiri, Sessegnon, Pickford, Maguire, Robertson, Adama Traore, Wijnaldum, Townsend, Ings, Trippier, McCarthy...

 

 

You could also add Ake, Wilson and Bundia to that list… there has been loads. 
 

Such a stupid sweeping statement. 

[tajjuk]

16 hours ago, The Kraken said:

Ok, let’s have a little look at the players from teams who were relegated from the premier league in 2021 and have since gone on to ‘do something’ or have been snapped up / attracted interest. And let’s be clear here, literally nobody (sensible)is saying that relegated clubs are packed with players who will do well in the premier league. The question is, do relegated clubs have at least 1 or 2 players who would prosper in a premier league club? The answer is yes, they do.

Sheffield United: Aaron Ramsadle (in fact two relegations in a row for him), Morgan Gibbs White, Sander Berge (available but overpriced).

Fulham: Ruben Loftus Cheek, Mitrovic (limited in the PL but has scored more in one PL season (11) than Che Adams has in any of his, and level with Che’s best season (9) is Mitro’s second best.

WBA: Sam Johnstone, Conor Gallagher(loan).

So, yes, I’d say every relegated club has at least one or two players who PL clubs should be very interested in. Beyond that there’s potentially another few who are very interesting candidates. Ruling them out just because they got relegated is too simplistic.

 

Loans don't see how they get counted seeing as they are usually at good clubs and are highly rated at those clubs.  So Gibbs-white, Gallagher, Loftus-Cheek those are people who have played PL level before in the case of RLC or GW for much better clubs (also GIbbs-White didn't get relegated with Sheff Utd, he is on loan from Wolves this season). 

Mitrovic is a meh one because he's consistently not done great at PL level. You say he has scored more PL goals than Che, but for a start to my recollection he took pens (it's like saying Toney has done much better than Che this year, but he hasn't, same amount of open play goals from the same amount of games) and really aren't we looking to improve on Che? 

Ramsdale yeh, but then everyone thought it was a hilarious signing by Arsenal and most people weren't seeing it. Pickford I'll give you. Both young players though, who had been highly rated, played at England youth levels etc. so I'll come back to that in a minute. 

Sander Berge is yet to prove anything at PL level, he's still young so could come good, but seems massively overpriced. 

The ones that maybe you could say might be worth a go are the young players,  at least there is potential there, especially if they have shown signs of talent, have England youth caps etc. but people were talking about like Tarkowski or Mee etc. people in their late 20s, if not 30s. 

 

15 hours ago, Chez said:

I don't think there's been any in recent years, but if you go back there have been a few plucked from relegation sides that have done OK afterwards

Jonny Evans, Fabianski, Jordan Ayew, Shaquiri, Sessegnon, Pickford, Maguire, Robertson, Adama Traore, Wijnaldum, Townsend, Ings, Trippier, McCarthy...

 

 

Jonny Evans yes. 

Ayew? hardly done much for Palace 14 PL goals 121 games proving that hes probably not PL quality right there.

Shaqiri was a waste of space for a lot of his time at Stoke, bench warmed at Liverpool and is now in the retirement home that is the MLS at just 30 years old......

Sessegnon is a Spurs bench warmer, he was also like 18 when Fulham got relegated. 

Troare is not wanted by Wolves. He also got relegated twice before he became semi-decent and even now at 26 hasn't really proven himself to be PL quality IMO, didn't he spend a whole season not scoring and not getting an assist? He only managed 2 assists and no goals in 17 games for Barcelona FFS,  I mean our fans despair over Redmond but he's way more productive than that. 

Townsend? He's really not that good, he scores the odd banger now and then but that is about it.

 

Robertson, Maguire, Pickford, Ings, and Trippier yes, but all were pretty young when they got relegated and to much knowledge most had played some international football, Ings iirc even got capped for England. 

Feel a lot of those are a stretch to say they are 'Good' players and I feel many prove they were not in fact good enough. 

 Not exactly a huge list especially as you are going back in some cases like 10 years to find examples. I think generally, aside the odd example, any established (i.e. non-youngster) in a team that gets relegated is not worth buying. Gambling on a young player coming good who's been part of a relegated team, especially if they have been rated elsewhere like getting England youth caps then yeh I can see it. But buying like Ben Mee equivalent, not seeing it.

People saying don't generalise, but the facts say otherwise, most players playing for relegated clubs clearly show they are not good enough and are not worth buying. If they have maybe been stand out in the team that got relegated, which both Ings and Wijnaldum were in those teams, but in recent years how many Burnley, Bournemouth, Sheff Utd, Norwich, Fulham etc. players have looked stand out in those teams? Basically none. 

We are talking about us as mid table PL club going shopping in the relegated teams and getting players that would improve us. Generally that won't be the case and rarely has been the case. 

[Chez]

4 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Jonny Evans yes. 

Ayew? hardly done much for Palace 14 PL goals 121 games proving that hes probably not PL quality right there.

Shaqiri was a waste of space for a lot of his time at Stoke, bench warmed at Liverpool and is now in the retirement home that is the MLS at just 30 years old......

Sessegnon is a Spurs bench warmer, he was also like 18 when Fulham got relegated. 

Troare is not wanted by Wolves. He also got relegated twice before he became semi-decent and even now at 26 hasn't really proven himself to be PL quality IMO, didn't he spend a whole season not scoring and not getting an assist? He only managed 2 assists and no goals in 17 games for Barcelona FFS,  I mean our fans despair over Redmond but he's way more productive than that. 

Townsend? He's really not that good, he scores the odd banger now and then but that is about it.

 

Robertson, Maguire, Pickford, Ings, and Trippier yes, but all were pretty young when they got relegated and to much knowledge most had played some international football, Ings iirc even got capped for England. 

Feel a lot of those are a stretch to say they are 'Good' players and I feel many prove they were not in fact good enough. 

So, apart from the ones that were without question successful, those that were young (the discussion was about whether any signed relegated players had done OK afterwards, not if any older relegated players had done well), those that Barcelona sign on loan and the ones that have played in the top flight for years after they were relegated/signed (is that not success?)...what have relegated players ever done for the Prem? 😉

You have a point though. Its not a huge list. Many more were signed and certainly didn't work out. Charlie Austin for starters (and some would say McCarthy). As with all signings, you have to pick the right ones. When West Ham went down in 2003, Joe Cole, Jemaine Defoe, Glenn Johnson and Carrick all were acquired. Sometimes teams have genuine talent AND go down. Even we had Peter Crouch...

I'm certainly not advocating signing Mee. I think Collins is the guy to get.

BTW Sessegnon has been first choice for Spurs since January. Seems to be doing OK. I'd certainly  have him here.

[The Kraken]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

As with all signings, you have to pick the right ones. When West Ham went down in 2003, Joe Cole, Jemaine Defoe, Glenn Johnson and Carrick all were acquired. Sometimes teams have genuine talent AND go down.

I'm certainly not advocating signing Mee. 

Exactly this. Literally nobody is suggesting looking to raid relegated sides for multiple of their star players at a a time. (If anybody is suggesting that, they’re mad). But there were comments by multiple posters to say that players from relegated clubs should be steered away from, or avoided at all costs.

It’s a fact that some relegated players have signed for a PL side and improved them. No, there’s not a huge amount of them. But there’s plenty more than none, that’s for absolutely sure, whether they’re young or old. Even loan players like Conor Gallagher, he did ok at West Brom and got himself a loan move to Palace, and Palace had one massive season out of him. That in itself is another reason to look to recruit that way, even for the loanees who may go back out on loan.

I don’t think Ben Mee is for us either. Jonny Evans is the ultimate find of that type and there’s not a great deal of them, but certainly enough to not rule out a whole category of player and keep looking. I think Tarkowski is a decent free for Everton, no fee but high wages can be offset and he’s certainly better than anything else Everton have got, including Godfrey ImO.

Edited 28 June, 2022 by The Kraken

[goodymatt]

On 27/06/2022 at 20:33, tajjuk said:

Are they? Based on what, you are talking about a main component of a Burnley side that got relegated and was a regular fixture in the relegation battle most years. 

Dennis a guy who has so far had about 6 months of decent PL form. 

Mitrovic who has consistently proven himself to be too good for the championship and not good enough for the PL, hence why he is still at Fulham.

Jao Pedro who, ok he's 20 and seems highly rated, but so far has not done much, getting relegated from the prem twice and hardly being on fire in the Championship. Plus pretty telling IMO that he has no Brazil youth caps seeing as half of Brazil seems to get an U20 cap. 

Berge who was Sheff Utds record transfer, got relegated with them and is still there.

Same with Lerma, still there. 

Gibbs-White to my knowledge hasn't been relegated he's a Wolves player on loan. 

But seems a common them to me, most of these players still seem to be at their relegated clubs, don't seem to be a lot of people queueing up to get them, the only ones that have moved so far Tarkowski and Pope, the former on free. 

Wouldn't a better argument be to list players signed from a relegated club who have gone on to be a success, because to my knowledge its a small list. 

 

Liverpool have done quite well with relegated players. Wijnaldum, Shaquiri and Robertson come to mind.