Are Saints funds being used to fund a Turkish Div 2 club?

[once_bitterne]

With the news that both Lis and Lyanco could be off to the 2nd division Turkish club our owners are in the process of buying you have to think if this is a good thing for our club or is PL money being used to improve the net worth of the owner's other assets?

There is no way a Turkish lower league club could afford the wages either player are on and players of their age/experience will not be gaining anything from playing at this low level. However, if both contribute to the club getting promoted to the Turkish PL then the owners will be left with an asset worth far more than their purchase price.

The Lis deal seemed off from the start. Why sign an out of contract 25 year old player when we already have 3 senior keepers and our number 1 keeper is a lot younger than 25. Lis can't exactly be said to be one for the future. It's very likely he'll never even play for us and was signed specifically to play for the owners's other club.

Given we are the poorest PL club should we be spending what little funds we have in this way?

[Wurzel]

Well  it works for Man City ....

Quote

• Our Clubs
•  
• Manchester City
• New York City
• Melbourne City
• Yokohama F. Marinos
• Montevideo City Torque 
• Girona FC
• Sichuan Jiuniu
• Mumbai City FC
• Lommel SK
• Esperance Sportive Troyes Aube Champagne (ESTAC)
• Club Bolivar - Partner Club

Admittedly their overall owners have a helluva lot more to splash around. And I'd imagine buying a player through one club and loaning him out to another in your group is a sneaky way of getting around some of the FFP rules. Plus sometimes we want a player for the future who needs to build up his points for a work permit, so sending him somewhere for guaranteed game time now can go towards that. Not to mention getting experience at higher levels than loans to the like of Ross County.

Admittedly the Lis one was a strange one but has our - I mean SR's - purchase of the Turkish club even completed yet? It may be the only way of ensuring we got his registration for now . Lyanco going there again guarantees game time, yes at a relatively low quality but who knows what other clubs at what levels will end up in our "group". Probably still a lotmore competitive for him every week than turning out for the U23s.

And are we the "poorest premier league club" ?

Edited 27 June, 2022 by Wurzel

[Toussaint]

I'm generally very  concerned regarding the new regime. Until now I've kept it to myself, I didn't want to be seen as the one one peeing on everyone's chips..

[The Kraken]

The Lis one doesn’t bother me. He’s not going to be on big wages and there’s a potential he goes there for a season then next season he’s a cheap number three keeper for us (like a Harry Lewis but might actually get trusted with some game time).

The Lyanco link is extremely strange and I’m not sure I buy it. No way would the loan club be able to supplement anywhere close to his wages. And it’s hardly a personal development step for Lyanco either, i could see that it would damage his career opportunities rather than enhance them.

Both only rumours at this stage anyway. I simply can’t see the Lyanco one happening, but Lis has its merits.

[DT]

Looks to me like creating a pool of players around a number of European clubs. Red Bull-lite?

[Toadhall Saint]

3 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

I'm generally very  concerned regarding the new regime. Until now I've kept it to myself, I didn't want to be seen as the one one peeing on everyone's chips..

Apart from this - what else is making you very concerned - best to get it out now.

[MarkSFC]

Presumably not, really. SR are a separate company to all the others who are in themselves separate companies. 

SR can place their funds wherever they see fit.  Each company can have arrangements between themselves as they see fit.

 

We need to give it 2 or 3 seasons to see how it's operating fully.  

[once_bitterne]

2 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Apart from this - what else is making you very concerned - best to get it out now.

They are no different to Gao.  Zero funds from owner, club can only spend what the club generates.  Wholly reliant on a spreadsheet to sign 'highly rated' 'prospects' in the hope that they can be sold on at huge profits even though with Hoedt, Ely, Carillo, Lemina, etc, etc this prospect has only failed foro us in the past.

And we seem to be using club money to buy players for other clubs now.

Edited 27 June, 2022 by once_bitterne

[Toadhall Saint]

1 minute ago, once_bitterne said:

They are n

??

[S-Clarke]

3 minutes ago, once_bitterne said:

They are no different to Gao.  Zero funds from owner, club can only spend what the club generates.  Wholly reliant on a spreadsheet to sign 'highly rated' 'prospects' in the hope that they can be sold on at huge profits even though with Hoedt, Ely, Carillo, Lemina, etc, etc this prospect has only failed foro us in the past.

And we seem to be using club money to buy players for other clubs now.

Baffling response.

Have a look at the date. It's not even July and we've signed 3 players without having to sell anyone to do so. That didn't happen under Gao, we immediately have more flexibility in the market.

In terms of our model and who we scout, where do you expect us to go? We can't buy proven because they're too expensive and out of our reach. The up-and-coming talent not yet poached by a big club is absolutely the right way for us to go, there's no other way we can really go. Do it right and it'll work.

Selling and looking at future profit is also the way clubs like us work, Dortmund, RB, Monaco etc. They spend fee's with an eye on what they'll get on a resale, it's just how football works for the clubs that aren't run by state countries. I really don't know what you expect.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

Baffling response.

Have a look at the date. It's not even July and we've signed 3 players without having to sell anyone to do so. That didn't happen under Gao, we immediately have more flexibility in the market.

In terms of our model and who we scout, where do you expect us to go? We can't buy proven because they're too expensive and out of our reach. The up-and-coming talent not yet poached by a big club is absolutely the right way for us to go, there's no other way we can really go. Do it right and it'll work.

Selling and looking at future profit is also the way clubs like us work, Dortmund, RB, Monaco etc. They spend fee's with an eye on what they'll get on a resale, it's just how football works for the clubs that aren't run by state countries. I really don't know what you expect.

Why are proven players too expensive for us? Is Ben Mee too expensive? If so, why?

[Saint Garrett]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Why are proven players too expensive for us? Is Ben Mee too expensive? If so, why?

I don't even think we'd want him.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why are proven players too expensive for us? Is Ben Mee too expensive? If so, why?

Is he really any better than Bednarek?

[once_bitterne]

18 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Baffling response.

Have a look at the date. It's not even July and we've signed 3 players without having to sell anyone to do so. That didn't happen under Gao, we immediately have more flexibility in the market.

In terms of our model and who we scout, where do you expect us to go? We can't buy proven because they're too expensive and out of our reach. The up-and-coming talent not yet poached by a big club is absolutely the right way for us to go, there's no other way we can really go. Do it right and it'll work.

Selling and looking at future profit is also the way clubs like us work, Dortmund, RB, Monaco etc. They spend fee's with an eye on what they'll get on a resale, it's just how football works for the clubs that aren't run by state countries. I really don't know what you expect.

What does more flexibility even mean?  We have the same finances.  Not a single penny from the new owners the same as with Gao.  The only reason we have more money to spend this window is that most of the Gao liabilities like Hoedt, Lemina, etc have now finally been shifted from the books but if the new cohort signed by SR can't be flogged on for a profit and we are trying to hawk them around Europe in a couple of years time while paying all of their wages then our future windows will be as frugal as Gao's last.

Why are experienced players out of our reach?  Forest have signed Awoniyi who is 25 next month and Henderson from Man U.  I wouldn't have minded those 2 with us.

Why don't we sign players to improve the team on the pitch rather than ones that will improve the bank balance in a couple of years time as history has shown us the opposite is true and instead of assets we can sell to Liverpool we are left with worthless players we can't actually get rid of until their contracts expire.

 

@ErwinK1961  based on companies house, etc.  No money from the owner has been put into the club.  They have pretty much admitted that no owner money ever will and the club has to be self-sufficient.  Do you have anything to say that the owners have put even 1p of their personal money into the club other than the purchase price? 

Edited 27 June, 2022 by once_bitterne

[ErwinK1961]

3 minutes ago, once_bitterne said:

What does more flexibility even mean?  We have the same finances.  Not a single penny from the new owners the same as with Gao.  The only reason we have more money to spend this window is that most of the Gao liabilities like Hoedt, Lemina, etc have now finally been shifted from the books but if the new cohort signed by SR can't be flogged on for a profit and we are trying to hawk them around Europe in a couple of years time while paying all of their wages then our future windows will be as frugal as Gao's last.

Why are experienced players out of our reach?  Forest have signed Awoniyi who is 25 next month and Henderson from Man U.  I wouldn't have minded those 2 with us.

Why don't we sign players to improve the team on the pitch rather than ones that will improve the bank balance in a couple of years time as history has shown us the opposite is true and instead of assets we can sell to Liverpool we are left with worthless players we can't actually get rid of until their contracts expire.

Based on what?

[S-Clarke]

24 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why are proven players too expensive for us? Is Ben Mee too expensive? If so, why?

Why use Ben Mee as an example? You know what I mean.

Signing a proven 10-15 goal a season PL striker, or a proven PL midfielder like Tiliemans or Soucek, Bisoumma etc. Out of our reach. That's what I mean.

[S-Clarke]

24 minutes ago, once_bitterne said:

What does more flexibility even mean?  We have the same finances.  Not a single penny from the new owners the same as with Gao.  The only reason we have more money to spend this window is that most of the Gao liabilities like Hoedt, Lemina, etc have now finally been shifted from the books but if the new cohort signed by SR can't be flogged on for a profit and we are trying to hawk them around Europe in a couple of years time while paying all of their wages then our future windows will be as frugal as Gao's last.

Why are experienced players out of our reach?  Forest have signed Awoniyi who is 25 next month and Henderson from Man U.  I wouldn't have minded those 2 with us.

Why don't we sign players to improve the team on the pitch rather than ones that will improve the bank balance in a couple of years time as history has shown us the opposite is true and instead of assets we can sell to Liverpool we are left with worthless players we can't actually get rid of until their contracts expire.

 

@ErwinK1961  based on companies house, etc.  No money from the owner has been put into the club.  They have pretty much admitted that no owner money ever will and the club has to be self-sufficient.  Do you have anything to say that the owners have put even 1p of their personal money into the club other than the purchase price? 

What does more flexibility mean? Umm....signing players before you have to sell to generate the funds? We had to hang around for months trying to sell target so we had enough cash flow to sign Adams. We were in dire straights with zero flexibility in the market, we couldn't be proactive with our plans and we had to be reactive to everything.

I didn't say experienced players were out of our reach, I said proven players. Proven PL players. We have to work in different areas to sign players who have the potential to become proven PL players. Awoniyi is one in the remit of someone we look to sign, I think the fee is a bit too high though in this instance. Awoniyi is not proven at the top level at all, so you've just agreed with what I said.

We do sign players who will improve the team on the pitch. I think it's safe to say KWP, Tino, Salisu improved us on the pitch. I'd expect Bazunu and ABK to do the same too, then the same people will be jumping up and down in a few years time when they get linked away for mega money. But if that happens, we've been a success and the model has been a success.

Under Gao was pointless, we had no money for improvements we had to generate everything. It's clear that there is a bit more positive cash flow to play with this summer and it's not just because Lemina and Hoedt aren't here. 

Edited 27 June, 2022 by S-Clarke

[saintwbu]

Personally I just wonder if the news outlet reporting about Lyanco going there just made a mistake and meant to write about Valery. There’s been a number of reports about us sending Valery over there.  

[Toussaint]

1 hour ago, Toadhall Saint said:

Apart from this - what else is making you very concerned - best to get it out now.

"This" is a big thing in itself. The multiple ownership makes me uneasy, i do not understand the principle buying an inferior player to loan to an inferior team, I do not understand the Lyanco situation either . I think Ralph should have gone,the rest depends on the squad rebuild before the start of the season. 

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Is he really any better than Bednarek?

Yes, easily.  

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

Is he really any better than Bednarek?

Yes he absolutely is and I can't believe that's a serious question.

In regards to the topic of the thread, no we're not being used to finance them. Has this model actually failed anywhere? RB, City owners etc all seem to do pretty well out of it.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Interesting debate. 
The new owners have yet to impress that they are much of an improvement on Gao. 
It’s still early days of course but I would rather they got their feet securely under the boardroom table at St Mary’s before they started looking at other clubs. But I am speaking as a fan of course while they are business men first and foremost. 

[Chez]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

It's clear that there is a bit more positive cash flow to play with this summer and it's not just because Lemina and Hoedt aren't here. 

yes, but didn't we have £26m of the loan left unspent in the bank, so cash flow was perhaps never going to be as big a problem this summer as it was previously. Not sure that has anything to do with the new owners.

When it comes to paying that loan off, things will get interesting.

[Ldnsaint]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why are proven players too expensive for us? Is Ben Mee too expensive? If so, why?

no, he's just not very good 

[VectisSaint]

Lyanco isn't going.

[richardc]

17 minutes ago, VectisSaint said:

Lyanco isn't going.

OOh confidently stated - is there any ITK there or just gut feel?

[Matthew Le God]

 

[egg]

Interesting discussion. 

The new owners have essentially said that we'll continue to be a self sustaining club as we were under Gao. In that respect, nothing has changed. These guys are a bit more hipster though, and the Brentford link gives football legitimacy, but in reality they ain't much different and we haven't become Man City lite. 

Sure, we've signed players already, but we don't know how that's been structured or financed. 

Onto the original question, the answer is undoubtedly a no. 

 

[tajjuk]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Why are proven players too expensive for us? Is Ben Mee too expensive? If so, why?

Ben Mee is not very good, he's clearly the inferior partner to Tarkowski. 

Also he's a defender from a team that finished below us and got relegated, not to mention he's 32, so he's likely only to decline from here. He's also spent most of his professional career playing for a team that more often than not parks the bus in a low block and defends the box in numbers, completely different to how we play, so even if he was any good, and not 32, he wouldn't be suited to our style anyway.

And Yes, GOOD proven players are too expensive for us. Phillips has just gone to Man City for £45 million plus, with only two years left on his contract, from a team that only just escaped relegation. 

We are talking £70 million plus for someone like JWP, West Ham are talking over £100 million for Rice, Palace have wanted £60-70 million for Zaha. West Ham paid £35 million for Zouma who had spent most of his career being bang average on loan with Stoke and Everton. Established PL players in their mid 20s are not cheap, not cheap on transfer values or wages. If we went for another player from another PL team that would genuinely improve us, you are talking a £30-40 million transfer fee and probably north of £100k a week. Over a 5 year deal you are talking £60-70 million total outlay. We just can't afford that, nor is it good value in any sense, especially as with any transfer the person could just as easily flop and regress. 

 

Also Ben Mee being clear cut better than Bednerak? People are having a laugh IMO, Burnley defenders barely leave the 6 yard box, most defenders can look ok if their entire team is barely 10 yards away from them and all they have to do is head the ball away a lot. I mean let's look at the facts, for a start he just got relegated and secondly clubs have been able to sign him since January and for free, but so far none have. 

2 hours ago, once_bitterne said:

What does more flexibility even mean?  We have the same finances.  Not a single penny from the new owners the same as with Gao.  The only reason we have more money to spend this window is that most of the Gao liabilities like Hoedt, Lemina, etc have now finally been shifted from the books but if the new cohort signed by SR can't be flogged on for a profit and we are trying to hawk them around Europe in a couple of years time while paying all of their wages then our future windows will be as frugal as Gao's last.

Why are experienced players out of our reach?  Forest have signed Awoniyi who is 25 next month and Henderson from Man U.  I wouldn't have minded those 2 with us.

Why don't we sign players to improve the team on the pitch rather than ones that will improve the bank balance in a couple of years time as history has shown us the opposite is true and instead of assets we can sell to Liverpool we are left with worthless players we can't actually get rid of until their contracts expire.

 

@ErwinK1961  based on companies house, etc.  No money from the owner has been put into the club.  They have pretty much admitted that no owner money ever will and the club has to be self-sufficient.  Do you have anything to say that the owners have put even 1p of their personal money into the club other than the purchase price? 

How do you know money hasn't been added, they have only owned the club since Jan and the accounts won't be out until next year. We've gone out and signed players straight away without sales, something we haven't done for years. 

How is Awoniyi 'experienced', the guy is a Liverpool reject who has floated around on loan for most of his career, he's only played more than 30 games in a league season ONCE at 25 and that was last year. He's also from the Bundesliga, so has no experience in English football aside being in Liverpool's youth teams.

Henderson is a perennial back up keeper.  De Gea was in the worst form of his life for about two seasons and he couldn't dislodge him, he's had one full season in the PL, which was THREE years ago now and had a handful of Utd appearances here and there. Oh and he's on absurd wages IIRC, like £140k a week or something dumb. 

Hardly like they are proven PL players, both are clear transfer gambles, expensive ones.

As for the last comment it's complete nonsense. KWP has improved us on the pitch, so has Livramento, so has Salisu, so has Armstrong. Not every transfer is going to be a hit, we had a spell with more misses than hits, but lately the scouting department seems to be doing fine IMO.  Everything I have seen or read about Bazunu and Armel Bella-Kotchap suggest both will play a role in the first team, likely improve it and be very shrewd signings.  

At least Bazunu has actually been playing, Henderson has made like 3 appearances in the last 18 months, he's got every chance IMO of turning out to be about as good as McCarthy as he is becoming an actual top GK. 

Edited 27 June, 2022 by tajjuk

[Puddings and Monkeys]

Is this clickbait?

I know it’s quiet (for all clubs) but not a shred of evidence that this is what SR are doing.

Someone putting 2 + 2 together and coming up with 40,000.

[tajjuk]

Also its entirely possible they (SR) are looking at basically setting up a loan farming system without relying fully on the loans. Chelsea (and this is common with lots of Serie A clubs as well who have in some cases like 50-60 players on loan in the past) have bought players that they likely knew would never get in their first team, but knew there was value there and they could re-sell them.

If you then add in the 'moneyball' system to transfers, finding value or talent where others don't see it, then the system makes potentially a lot of sense. 

Sign a player that they think is a raw talent, or late bloomer or is just good value who could become good with the right amount of games/good training. Said player won't be good enough for the PL, so goes to one of the other clubs, plays games, trains, improves. If the player explodes and shows really good talent then comes back to Saints (if on loan) or moves to Saints from the feeder club. If the player the player just improves a bit but not enough to PL ready maybe he moves to higher level club in the group or gets loaned somewhere else, potentially then being sold for a profit. 

So this Lis keeper, maybe they think he's a bit of a late bloomer and just needs to right environment to flourish. He's probably only be signed by us because the other club groups aren't owned yet. He gets loaned to Turkey, gets better, maybe gets another loan to say the French first division and 3 years down the line you have a player who could be a first team keeper for a middle club in a top 5 league and they sell him for £5 million or something or he really kicks on and challenges for a Saints team first place. Or at worst he flops, you don't lose much. You turn a low transfer and probably low wages into a decent return, which in turn allows for more signings which benefits the whole group. 

As I said Chelsea signed players that never got it into their first team squad and likely never were, but they loan farmed them about and made a profit on them.

IIRC Harrison went to New York City for a couple of seasons, then progressed through the group to Man City, the main club of the group, then had a couple of championship loans, one of which was to Leeds who bought him eventually for a decent fee. He never played for City. 

The big clubs have been doing this for years, even without the groups, to help supplement their income. Sign young players for cheaper fees, loan them out, sell them on, with UEFA (I think) cracking down on the loans, having lots of feeder clubs is an easier way to do it and gets around the loan rules. 

[SuperSAINT]

8 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Also its entirely possible they (SR) are looking at basically setting up a loan farming system without relying fully on the loans. Chelsea (and this is common with lots of Serie A clubs as well who have in some cases like 50-60 players on loan in the past) have bought players that they likely knew would never get in their first team, but knew there was value there and they could re-sell them.

If you then add in the 'moneyball' system to transfers, finding value or talent where others don't see it, then the system makes potentially a lot of sense. 

Sign a player that they think is a raw talent, or late bloomer or is just good value who could become good with the right amount of games/good training. Said player won't be good enough for the PL, so goes to one of the other clubs, plays games, trains, improves. If the player explodes and shows really good talent then comes back to Saints (if on loan) or moves to Saints from the feeder club. If the player the player just improves a bit but not enough to PL ready maybe he moves to higher level club in the group or gets loaned somewhere else, potentially then being sold for a profit. 

So this Lis keeper, maybe they think he's a bit of a late bloomer and just needs to right environment to flourish. He's probably only be signed by us because the other club groups aren't owned yet. He gets loaned to Turkey, gets better, maybe gets another loan to say the French first division and 3 years down the line you have a player who could be a first team keeper for a middle club in a top 5 league and they sell him for £5 million or something or he really kicks on and challenges for a Saints team first place. Or at worst he flops, you don't lose much. You turn a low transfer and probably low wages into a decent return, which in turn allows for more signings which benefits the whole group. 

As I said Chelsea signed players that never got it into their first team squad and likely never were, but they loan farmed them about and made a profit on them.

IIRC Harrison went to New York City for a couple of seasons, then progressed through the group to Man City, the main club of the group, then had a couple of championship loans, one of which was to Leeds who bought him eventually for a decent fee. He never played for City. 

The big clubs have been doing this for years, even without the groups, to help supplement their income. Sign young players for cheaper fees, loan them out, sell them on, with UEFA (I think) cracking down on the loans, having lots of feeder clubs is an easier way to do it and gets around the loan rules. 

A bloody good summary!

[Teddeer]

All this talk of new owners ambitions or lack of, player movement, other clubs have spent more than us etc etc.....I hadn't realised the transfer window had already closed. 

[John D]

2 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Also its entirely possible they (SR) are looking at basically setting up a loan farming system without relying fully on the loans. Chelsea (and this is common with lots of Serie A clubs as well who have in some cases like 50-60 players on loan in the past) have bought players that they likely knew would never get in their first team, but knew there was value there and they could re-sell them.

If you then add in the 'moneyball' system to transfers, finding value or talent where others don't see it, then the system makes potentially a lot of sense. 

Sign a player that they think is a raw talent, or late bloomer or is just good value who could become good with the right amount of games/good training. Said player won't be good enough for the PL, so goes to one of the other clubs, plays games, trains, improves. If the player explodes and shows really good talent then comes back to Saints (if on loan) or moves to Saints from the feeder club. If the player the player just improves a bit but not enough to PL ready maybe he moves to higher level club in the group or gets loaned somewhere else, potentially then being sold for a profit. 

So this Lis keeper, maybe they think he's a bit of a late bloomer and just needs to right environment to flourish. He's probably only be signed by us because the other club groups aren't owned yet. He gets loaned to Turkey, gets better, maybe gets another loan to say the French first division and 3 years down the line you have a player who could be a first team keeper for a middle club in a top 5 league and they sell him for £5 million or something or he really kicks on and challenges for a Saints team first place. Or at worst he flops, you don't lose much. You turn a low transfer and probably low wages into a decent return, which in turn allows for more signings which benefits the whole group. 

As I said Chelsea signed players that never got it into their first team squad and likely never were, but they loan farmed them about and made a profit on them.

IIRC Harrison went to New York City for a couple of seasons, then progressed through the group to Man City, the main club of the group, then had a couple of championship loans, one of which was to Leeds who bought him eventually for a decent fee. He never played for City. 

The big clubs have been doing this for years, even without the groups, to help supplement their income. Sign young players for cheaper fees, loan them out, sell them on, with UEFA (I think) cracking down on the loans, having lots of feeder clubs is an easier way to do it and gets around the loan rules. 

That approach will be impacted by the new rules on player loans - maximum of 8 allowed outward this season dropping to 6 by 2024.  So the multi club model may be away around that if ownership is spread around the group of clubs.

[AlexLaw76]

3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Ben Mee is not very good, he's clearly the inferior partner to Tarkowski. 

Also he's a defender from a team that finished below us and got relegated, not to mention he's 32, so he's likely only to decline from here. He's also spent most of his professional career playing for a team that more often than not parks the bus in a low block and defends the box in numbers, completely different to how we play, so even if he was any good, and not 32, he wouldn't be suited to our style anyway.

And Yes, GOOD proven players are too expensive for us. Phillips has just gone to Man City for £45 million plus, with only two years left on his contract, from a team that only just escaped relegation. 

 

Ok, Tarkowski, Pope, McNeill.  We would never be in for players who have established themselves in this league, it seems

[rallyboy]

I've never been convinced by the idea of buying players from clubs that have just proved that they weren't good enough - for every jewel there must be 50 Championship players who will get relegated again.

Searching through bins for a tasty snack is a slightly flawed approach.

[Matthew Le God]

16 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

I've never been convinced by the idea of buying players from clubs that have just proved that they weren't good enough - for every jewel there must be 50 Championship players who will get relegated again.

Searching through bins for a tasty snack is a slightly flawed approach.

It is problematic to write off players based on their team being relegated. Better to judge the player on their own merits, not that of the club they come from.

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, rallyboy said:

I've never been convinced by the idea of buying players from clubs that have just proved that they weren't good enough - for every jewel there must be 50 Championship players who will get relegated again.

Searching through bins for a tasty snack is a slightly flawed approach.

Plenty of players in relegated clubs are pretty good.

Off the top of my head from the last few years...

Tarkowski, McNeill, Pope, Dennis, Joao Pedro, Gibbs-White, Sander Berge, Mitrovic, Lerma, 

Edited 27 June, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[verlaine1979]

Presumably the financial flexibility is that the new owners are prepared to shoulder the risk of spending money on inbound transfers before it has been generated by outbound sales. If those sales don't pan out, they must be comfortable with the idea of covering the shortfall somehow (owner loan or new debt), whereas under Gao we clearly were not comfortable with that idea at all, as evidenced by the Target and Ings sales.

[rallyboy]

31 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Plenty of players in relegated clubs are pretty good.

Off the top of my head from the last few years...

Tarkowski, McNeill, Pope, Dennis, Joao Pedro, Gibbs-White, Sander Berge, Mitrovic, Lerma, 

Yeah, and the overwhelming majority are not, as I said. 

[Matthew Le God]

46 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

Yeah, and the overwhelming majority are not, as I said. 

How about judging a player on his own merits rather than that of other players or his club being relegated?

[tajjuk]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Plenty of players in relegated clubs are pretty good.

Off the top of my head from the last few years...

Tarkowski, McNeill, Pope, Dennis, Joao Pedro, Gibbs-White, Sander Berge, Mitrovic, Lerma, 

Are they? Based on what, you are talking about a main component of a Burnley side that got relegated and was a regular fixture in the relegation battle most years. 

Dennis a guy who has so far had about 6 months of decent PL form. 

Mitrovic who has consistently proven himself to be too good for the championship and not good enough for the PL, hence why he is still at Fulham.

Jao Pedro who, ok he's 20 and seems highly rated, but so far has not done much, getting relegated from the prem twice and hardly being on fire in the Championship. Plus pretty telling IMO that he has no Brazil youth caps seeing as half of Brazil seems to get an U20 cap. 

Berge who was Sheff Utds record transfer, got relegated with them and is still there.

Same with Lerma, still there. 

Gibbs-White to my knowledge hasn't been relegated he's a Wolves player on loan. 

But seems a common them to me, most of these players still seem to be at their relegated clubs, don't seem to be a lot of people queueing up to get them, the only ones that have moved so far Tarkowski and Pope, the former on free. 

Wouldn't a better argument be to list players signed from a relegated club who have gone on to be a success, because to my knowledge its a small list. 

 

[Matthew Le God]

Lallana and Schneiderlin were relegated to League One, should they have been written off as no hopers due to the poor performance of their club? Sweeping generalisations aren't helpful.

Edited 27 June, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[Convict Colony]

20 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

 

Plus pretty telling IMO that he has no Brazil youth caps seeing as half of Brazil seems to get an U20 cap

 

Hahahaha this made me chuckle cos it's bloody true, give yourself a cool sounding name and your in.

Edited 27 June, 2022 by Convict Colony

[SuperSAINT]

21 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

Hahahaha this made me chuckle cos it's bloody true, give yourself a cool sounding name and your in.

SuperSAINTZinho

[Convict Colony]

1 minute ago, SuperSAINT said:

SuperSAINTZinho

Supersaintos

[The Kraken]

3 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Wouldn't a better argument be to list players signed from a relegated club who have gone on to be a success, because to my knowledge its a small list. 

 

Ok, let’s have a little look at the players from teams who were relegated from the premier league in 2021 and have since gone on to ‘do something’ or have been snapped up / attracted interest. And let’s be clear here, literally nobody (sensible)is saying that relegated clubs are packed with players who will do well in the premier league. The question is, do relegated clubs have at least 1 or 2 players who would prosper in a premier league club? The answer is yes, they do.

Sheffield United: Aaron Ramsadle (in fact two relegations in a row for him), Morgan Gibbs White, Sander Berge (available but overpriced).

Fulham: Ruben Loftus Cheek, Mitrovic (limited in the PL but has scored more in one PL season (11) than Che Adams has in any of his, and level with Che’s best season (9) is Mitro’s second best.

WBA: Sam Johnstone, Conor Gallagher(loan).

So, yes, I’d say every relegated club has at least one or two players who PL clubs should be very interested in. Beyond that there’s potentially another few who are very interesting candidates. Ruling them out just because they got relegated is too simplistic.

 

Edited 27 June, 2022 by The Kraken

[Chez]

2 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Wouldn't a better argument be to list players signed from a relegated club who have gone on to be a success, because to my knowledge its a small list. 

 

I don't think there's been any in recent years, but if you go back there have been a few plucked from relegation sides that have done OK afterwards

Jonny Evans, Fabianski, Jordan Ayew, Shaquiri, Sessegnon, Pickford, Maguire, Robertson, Adama Traore, Wijnaldum, Townsend, Ings, Trippier, McCarthy...

 

 

[The Kraken]

Not a bad list, that.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I stopped being apprehensive about relegated players when we brought in Paul Telfer and Paul Williams under Strachan.