Duncan Edwards

[spyinthesky]

Not Saints related and forgive me for that but I have just finished reading a biography of Duncan Edwards by James Leighton.

I guess only the older Saints fans on here will remember his name and only a few will have seen him play prior to his death in the Munich Air Crash of 1958.

I can remember being off school ill when the tragedy was reported on our old valve radio and being particularly affected by the deaths, particularly of Duncan Edwards who had dominated the football headlines at the time.

Reading the book brought home to me the loss of Edwards, who was truly a giant in the game in every respect at the tender age of 21, as well as the likes of Tommy Taylor, Roger Byrne and a number of other young players who would likely to have been regulars in the England team going forward.

By common consent Duncan Edwards was, at 21, the greatest all rounder English football ever produced and he was earning £15 a week plus bonuses.

Puts a lot of things into perspective I think.

[cloggy saint]

But not as good as Phil Jones, according to Ferguson  😆

[Winnersaint]

Would have been England skipper in 1966, perhaps. The one footballer my late wife knew about as her dad took her to see a statue of him in Dudley when she was a kid.

[Pilchards]

Watched the babes thingy on Amazon/Netflix, can’t remember which but it was so clear he was a superstar back then.

Cocky too which made him stand out. Such a shame the FA forced them to fly that night otherwise they would forfeit the next league game.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

When my Dad died I was going through his old photos and I found one of him posing next to Duncan's grave. Was a big deal back in the day. Such a shame.

[Badger]

A good read also:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/Features/2021/08/16/short-but-glittering-career-of-midland-football-legend-duncan/

[Badger]

I remember an older relative speaking of him that he had tremendous potentail had he lived , but then described as a bit of a brylcream boy ! Seems had he lived he might have been one of football's first pin up type players, a few years before Best and co in the 1960's.

Similar to Winnersaint I'd read he was likely to have been England captain by 1962 WC.

[suewhistle]

My Dad was duty officer at Manchester for BEA the day it happened. He didn't say much about it, but they all had to line up on the tarmac when the bodies were returned. 

It's not a flying motto as far as I know, but it should be: "If in doubt, don't set out", however important your passengers are, and however much pressure is put on you.

[Nordic Saint]

31 minutes ago, Badger said:

I remember an older relative speaking of him that he had tremendous potentail had he lived , but then described as a bit of a brylcream boy ! Seems had he lived he might have been one of football's first pin up type players, a few years before Best and co in the 1960's.

Similar to Winnersaint I'd read he was likely to have been England captain by 1962 WC.

 But that ponytail would have been very uncomfortable even with just a bit of brylcreem on it.

[Victor]

His biography? Must be a slim book. Chapter 1: His childhood.  Chapter 2: Manchester United.  The end; or did he have a dark side?

[Charlie Wayman]

I saw him play at Fratton Park against Portsmouth in the late 50's.

It was the only League 1 football on offer in these parts in those days with Saints plying their trade in Div 2 & 3. 

[rooney]

Saw him at White Hart Lane and Chelsea when they had the dog track around the pitch. An outstanding player. 

[derry]

The Munich crash unfortunately was an accident waiting to happen. The circumstances conspired that day. The German investigation blamed the crew for ice on the wings. It has been proved since that the cause was slush on the runway. Very little was known at that time about the effect of slush on nosewheel aircraft as historically most aircraft had tailwheels after WW2. The two training Captain crew were unaware that when taking off in slush the drag on the nosewheel increased by the square of the speed. The faster the aircraft went the greater the drag until the aircraft reached the limit of its power and stopped accelerating. Too slow to take off and too late to stop the aircraft crashing off the end of the runway. The Captain was Captain Thain acting as co-pilot in the right hand seat, Captain Rayment was the designated co-pilot flying in the Captain's left hand seat and was killed.

Both Captains were checked out to fly in either seat but BEA sacked the surviving pilot because he was the designated (rostered) Captain and should have been in the left hand seat. Although it was and as far as I know still is the practice to fly alternate flights and swop duties. Captains checked out in either seat usually opted to fly from the left seat. Captain Thain fought BEA for the rest of his life but died about ten years later. Another tragedy.

Some years later my company bought BAC 1-11s and some of the Captains were to be checked out in both seats. I put the cat amongs the pigeons by refusing and as Chairman of the BALPA pilot's council and in accordance with our Pilot's contract refused the company permission to check out the pilots. I insisted the company inserted a clause into the operations manual that pilots could swop seats and the Captain occupying the left seat became the Commander and designated Captain of the flight. That meant the action taken against Captain Thain could not be repeated in our airline.

Coincidentally the BALPA representative who represented Captain Thain at the subsequent enquiries was Captain Key who was killed in the Staines Trident crash in 1972.

[gsweet87]

My dad is a United fan and says he is the second best player he saw for United after George Best.

[Badger]

1 hour ago, derry said:

The Munich crash unfortunately was an accident waiting to happen. The circumstances conspired that day. The German investigation blamed the crew for ice on the wings. It has been proved since that the cause was slush on the runway. Very little was known at that time about the effect of slush on nosewheel aircraft as historically most aircraft had tailwheels after WW2. The two training Captain crew were unaware that when taking off in slush the drag on the nosewheel increased by the square of the speed. The faster the aircraft went the greater the drag until the aircraft reached the limit of its power and stopped accelerating. Too slow to take off and too late to stop the aircraft crashing off the end of the runway. The Captain was Captain Thain acting as co-pilot in the right hand seat, Captain Rayment was the designated co-pilot flying in the Captain's left hand seat and was killed.

Both Captains were checked out to fly in either seat but BEA sacked the surviving pilot because he was the designated (rostered) Captain and should have been in the left hand seat. Although it was and as far as I know still is the practice to fly alternate flights and swop duties. Captains checked out in either seat usually opted to fly from the left seat. Captain Thain fought BEA for the rest of his life but died about ten years later. Another tragedy.

Some years later my company bought BAC 1-11s and some of the Captains were to be checked out in both seats. I put the cat amongs the pigeons by refusing and as Chairman of the BALPA pilot's council and in accordance with our Pilot's contract refused the company permission to check out the pilots. I insisted the company inserted a clause into the operations manual that pilots could swop seats and the Captain occupying the left seat became the Commander and designated Captain of the flight. That meant the action taken against Captain Thain could not be repeated in our airline.

Coincidentally the BALPA representative who represented Captain Thain at the subsequent enquiries was Captain Key who was killed in the Staines Trident crash in 1972.

Very interesting post, thanks. 

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

7 minutes ago, Badger said:

Very interesting post, thanks. 

Agreed - wish there was more interesting stuff like this posted on here!

[spyinthesky]

7 hours ago, Pilchards said:

Watched the babes thingy on Amazon/Netflix, can’t remember which but it was so clear he was a superstar back then.

Cocky too which made him stand out. Such a shame the FA forced them to fly that night otherwise they would forfeit the next league game.

Pilchards,
Not quite true.
It was Alan Hardaker of the Football League who was against English Clubs entering the European Cup and Chelsea were banned from entering the first competition..
Matt Busby got Sir Stanley Rous, President of the FA, to back him up and persuade Hardaker to change his mind.
However Matt Busby was keen to return from their game in Belgrade asap to ensure they were able to play a League game on the Saturday.
The plane tried to take off twice from their fuelling stop in Munich but failed on the third attempt.

 

 

[spyinthesky]

1 hour ago, gsweet87 said:

My dad is a United fan and says he is the second best player he saw for United after George Best.

Your Dad was fortunate to see both Best and Edwards play.
Bobby Charlton who played with both of them reckoned Edwards was the best player ever in his opinion.
He reckoned Best was an outstanding forward but would have been useless as a central defender or full back or even as a typical centre forward.
In comparison Edwards could play anywhere in the team and be top rated.
He also had a thunderous shot in either foot which very few players I can think of who have that capability (Charlton was one)

[cambsaint]

He is probably the first time I took a real interest in football.

I can remember to this day the playground chat was all about him and Munich

I was at Western Primary School in Winchester at the annexe. I remember one morning a friend excitedly said that he was reported to be improving, unfortunately he passed away shortly afterwards, We were all in mourning.

We had not long had a TV a Bush in a massive walnut cabinet with a tiny 12 inch or so screen.

I think I saw him play in an England international on TV but I cannot be sure but to my amazement my Mum watched some of the following Cup Final in memory of the Babes, possibly the only football match she was ever interested in, ( she and my sister even went out during the 66 final leaving Dad and I to watch it alone}

[tpbury]

My mum got the same bus as him in Manchester, in the 50s.  She was completely star struck and remembered him very fondly, though I think she only had a couple of chats on the bus.