Women’s Football

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

Bizarre when you think about it. If we want him (which is a prerequisite for us to be "beaten" to him), I presume we would then also meet the release clause... 

Or is it some kind of tricksy before to unheard of release clause that only applies for the first offer recieved 😱😅

Indeed, if we haven’t bid or won’t pay the release clause then they haven’t really beaten us. Probably one of a number of players we’ve enquired about which is pretty normal. Although that’s the second striker today we’ve been reported as missing out on so must be actively looking for at least one, thankfully 

[woodsaint1]

5 hours ago, Turkish said:

Looks like we missed out on this guy although I don’t remember seeing any links at all

 

Thank god for that. We have a temendous record with south american signings

[Convict Colony]

4 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Is it me or are women 50% of the population?

I am talking about meritocracy, report actual newsworthy info without being gender,race bias etc, write interesting articles and i will read them.

Also in russia there is an actual surplus of women v men and that is not a pun on ukraine war.

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, Convict Colony said:

I am talking about meritocracy, report actual newsworthy info without being gender,race bias etc, write interesting articles and i will read them.

Also in russia there is an actual surplus of women v men and that is not a pun on ukraine war.

I think it’s funny. The endless force feeding of womens football is hilarious. The sky sports breaking news alerts of someone you’ve never heard of, the celebration of a top flight womens team getting a record attendance which is half of what some teams get for youth games as being a momentous occasion. If people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think they should do. Obviously that will upset the likes of sue whistle but that’s the reality as much as they might not like it.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

1 hour ago, Convict Colony said:

I am talking about meritocracy, report actual newsworthy info without being gender,race bias etc, write interesting articles and i will read them.

Also in russia there is an actual surplus of women v men and that is not a pun on ukraine war.

Women's football is only where it is because the FA banned it for decades. There's no reason it shouldn't be like tennis with broadly equal interest, it just needs a push so more people get to know the players and so that more young girls start playing and raising the standard.

I find it hilarious that people get so butthurt about it - it really doesn't impinge on you if you decide not to click on the articles

[BILLY]

53 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I think it’s funny. The endless force feeding of womens football is hilarious. The sky sports breaking news alerts of someone you’ve never heard of, the celebration of a top flight womens team getting a record attendance which is half of what some teams get for youth games as being a momentous occasion. If people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think they should do. Obviously that will upset the likes of sue whistle but that’s the reality as much as they might not like it.

Totally agree, no interest in womens football whatsoever, feed up with it being continuously forced on us by social media, Sky Sports etc including our own club.  

[ant]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

I think it’s funny. The endless force feeding of womens football is hilarious. The sky sports breaking news alerts of someone you’ve never heard of, the celebration of a top flight womens team getting a record attendance which is half of what some teams get for youth games as being a momentous occasion. If people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think they should do. Obviously that will upset the likes of sue whistle but that’s the reality as much as they might not like it.

As opposed to the men's game, where most only tend to know so much about it (and have heard of XYZ player) because year-on-year there's ever more coverage and reporting.

Not sure this is the slam dunk you think it is.

[Turkish]

20 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Women's football is only where it is because the FA banned it for decades. There's no reason it shouldn't be like tennis with broadly equal interest, it just needs a push so more people get to know the players and so that more young girls start playing and raising the standard.

I find it hilarious that people get so butthurt about it - it really doesn't impinge on you if you decide not to click on the articles

Do you honestly believe people are “butthole hurt about it”?
 

 

[John D]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

I think it’s funny. The endless force feeding of womens football is hilarious. The sky sports breaking news alerts of someone you’ve never heard of, the celebration of a top flight womens team getting a record attendance which is half of what some teams get for youth games as being a momentous occasion. If people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think they should do. Obviously that will upset the likes of sue whistle but that’s the reality as much as they might not like it.

Oh dear, what utter rubbish!

Yes, the coverage may currently be disproportionate but to suggest that people only support women's football because they think they have to is pathetic.

 

 

[djharvey]

Just now, Turkish said:

Do you honestly believe people are “butthole hurt about it”?
 

 

By the look on your face and the way you walk, Yes!

[ant]

17 minutes ago, BILLY said:

Totally agree, no interest in womens football whatsoever, feed up with it being continuously forced on us by social media, Sky Sports etc including our own club.  

Of the 24 things you can currently click through to from the OS homepage, 4 relate to womens football.

4 mentions of the womens team on Facebook from about 30 posts this week.

We've tweeted about 70 times this week; there's 10 tweets directly or tangentially linked to womens football.

It's 4 from 36 on the BBC Football homepage.

6 from 26 on the Sky Sports Football homepage (albeit 3 on Bronze - and 2 link to the same interview).

And let's not ignore that on virtually any website worth its salt you can filter news, and/or view by specific league.

If we're going to talk about things being "forced" upon us, shall we at least speak in facts?

[Ralph Fastenbüttl]

I'm a leftie and I'm feminist - and I mean in that the truest sense in that I believe males and females should be treated equally. I'm all for women's football, and think the quality of the women's game has increased exponentially in recent years. I'm pleased about the growth of the women's game, and am all for female commentators and officials when said individuals are suitably qualified/talented to do the job (I could listen/watch Alex Scott all day long).

But at the same time, I do not follow the women's game so it's a right pain the arse that the women's football news is intermingled with men's.

It's not uncommon for me to click a link only to find that the news I'm reading is of no interest to me. Surely the clear differentiation and segregation of men's/women's football news is in the interest of absolutely everybody because everyone wants to be able to quickly identify what they are and are not interested in? 

[ant]

30 minutes ago, Ralph Fastenbüttl said:

It's not uncommon for me to click a link only to find that the news I'm reading is of no interest to me. Surely the clear differentiation and segregation of men's/women's football news is in the interest of absolutely everybody because everyone wants to be able to quickly identify what they are and are not interested in? 

If you click onto the Football homepage/landing page of any website, funnily enough you'll see literally everything relating to football.

The separation/segmentation you describe if available on just about any relevant news site I can think of.

Want to see content about a specific League? Cup? Team? All possible - and then you can indiscriminately click through subsequent links to your heart's content.

Is this just a misunderstanding of how categorisation works? Lack of Internet savvy? Or is there a more pig-headed stubbornness at play?

[Ralph Fastenbüttl]

18 minutes ago, ant said:

If you click onto the Football homepage/landing page of any website, funnily enough you'll see literally everything relating to football.

The separation/segmentation you describe if available on just about any relevant news site I can think of.

Want to see content about a specific League? Cup? Team? All possible - and then you can indiscriminately click through subsequent links to your heart's content.

Is this just a misunderstanding of how categorisation works? Lack of Internet savvy? Or is there a more pig-headed stubbornness at play?

Not that I need to explain myself to you, but I was mainly referring to headline links on social media. Oddly enough I am indeed familiar with the internet and am capable of choosing categories, but even then it's not ideal because my interests aren't limited to a single league or indeed a single country. But for all my ideological support of the women's game, I'm yet to encounter a site that allows you to broadly isolate men's and women's football news from one another.

There's no need to bite my head off, son - we're on the same side. All I'm saying is that from a consumer news perspective, I understand the gripes.

[skintsaint]

2 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

it really doesn't impinge on you if you decide not to click on the articles

Unfortunately websites use click bait titles to get you to click on them, presumably to boost 'clicks'. Take this recent one for example, it wasn't until you clicked it that you knew it was a woman player, as on the main page it said Buchanan to take Terry's shirt number. Why they mix the game records as well I don't know, for example some woman beating Rooney's goal scoring record, or more appearances than Shilton.

To be honest they should just ditch men's and women's and have mixed. Same with all sports seeing as its all about equality and same pay now.

[Saint_clark]

1 hour ago, ant said:

If you click onto the Football homepage/landing page of any website, funnily enough you'll see literally everything relating to football.

The separation/segmentation you describe if available on just about any relevant news site I can think of.

Want to see content about a specific League? Cup? Team? All possible - and then you can indiscriminately click through subsequent links to your heart's content.

Is this just a misunderstanding of how categorisation works? Lack of Internet savvy? Or is there a more pig-headed stubbornness at play?

Alright chief, calm down. What he was referring to was how websites will commonly post headlines such as "City V Chelsea match report" or "new Liverpool signing for record fee" and then you click on it and it's about the women's game. They know what they're doing, you know what they're doing, let's just be honest about it and say it's not ok. 

And I'm someone who has been calling for Saints to drastically improve their coverage of the women's team, go full time and watched them whenever they were streamed online. Don't try and flip this around because it just comes across as disingenuous.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

9 hours ago, Turkish said:

I think it’s funny. The endless force feeding of womens football is hilarious. The sky sports breaking news alerts of someone you’ve never heard of, the celebration of a top flight womens team getting a record attendance which is half of what some teams get for youth games as being a momentous occasion. If people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think they should do. Obviously that will upset the likes of sue whistle but that’s the reality as much as they might not like it.

For once I am am in 100% agreement with you. 

[Turkish]

7 hours ago, John D said:

Oh dear, what utter rubbish!

Yes, the coverage may currently be disproportionate but to suggest that people only support women's football because they think they have to is pathetic.

 

 

I see the social conditioning is working on you.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

8 hours ago, Turkish said:

Do you honestly believe people are “butthole hurt about it”?
 

 

You post about this sort of stuff a lot, it seems like you're pretty bothered by it

[Dorchester Saint]

9 hours ago, Turkish said:

I think it’s funny. The endless force feeding of womens football is hilarious. The sky sports breaking news alerts of someone you’ve never heard of, the celebration of a top flight womens team getting a record attendance which is half of what some teams get for youth games as being a momentous occasion. If people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think they should do. Obviously that will upset the likes of sue whistle but that’s the reality as much as they might not like it.

Agreed!! I tried watching it once, I gave up the first time a goal kick failed to reach the halfway line. Womens football is f*cking shit! 
 

Same with female commentators being forced onto our screens during mens games…..go and commentate on the womens game, we don’t want all that screeching ffs!! 

Edited 20 June, 2022 by Dorchester Saint

[Ex Lion Tamer]

5 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Unfortunately websites use click bait titles to get you to click on them, presumably to boost 'clicks'. Take this recent one for example, it wasn't until you clicked it that you knew it was a woman player, as on the main page it said Buchanan to take Terry's shirt number. Why they mix the game records as well I don't know, for example some woman beating Rooney's goal scoring record, or more appearances than Shilton.

To be honest they should just ditch men's and women's and have mixed. Same with all sports seeing as its all about equality and same pay now.

That must be so hard for you. Definitely worth throwing the women's game under the bus for

[Chewy]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I see the social conditioning is working on you.

Yep, far better to stick rigidly to the social norms you were born into. Then you can really grow into the stereotype grumpy old man with dinosaur views, stewing every more miserably about how it’s not like it used to be.

”Nothing makes sense any more”

Youre gonna be tonnes of fun in your old peoples home

[Dorchester Saint]

Just now, Chewy said:

Yep, far better to stick rigidly to the social norms you were born into. Then you can really grow into the stereotype grumpy old man with dinosaur views, stewing every more miserably about how it’s not like it used to be.

”Nothing makes sense any more”

Youre gonna be tonnes of fun in your old peoples home

I’m not sure that a dislike of turgid womens football is a dinosaur view….my kids think it’s shit as well?? 

 

[Barsiem]

Fwiw I love the women's game.  Can understand why some people don't, but cannot understand why they don't ignore and move on (notwithstanding the clickbait point, but the solution there is to ignore websites that engage in that practice).  There is a huge amount of media coverage of the men's game so it's not like you're missing out by the women getting more coverage.

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Dorchester Saint said:

Agreed!! I tried watching it once, I gave up the first time a goal kick failed to reach the halfway line. Womens football is f*cking shit! 
 

Same with female commentators being forced onto our screens during mens games…..go and commentate on the womens game, we don’t want all that screeching ffs!! 

I watched a bit of England v Latvia game because I’d seen them going on about how brilliant England were playing and on for a record breaking score. The Latvia team were embarrassingly shit. Their defenders could barely kick a ball, their clearances didn’t leave the penalty area, the u9s team j could could have put up better opposition.

We have some girls in the team I coach, some of them are really keen and not bad players. I was pleased when saints team got promoted, but then I’d support anyone representing Southampton. I bet most people couldn’t name more than a three or for of England’s squad for the Euros, who and when they’re playing etc. if people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think it’s the right thing to be seen to do.

[SW11_Saint]

6 minutes ago, Dorchester Saint said:

I’m not sure that a dislike of turgid womens football is a dinosaur view….my kids think it’s shit as well?? 

 

So you’re saying they inherited your dinosaur views? Makes sense. 

[Dorchester Saint]

1 minute ago, SW11_Saint said:

So you’re saying they inherited your dinosaur views? Makes sense. 

Yeah and all their mates….🙄

[Turkish]

8 hours ago, ant said:

As opposed to the men's game, where most only tend to know so much about it (and have heard of XYZ player) because year-on-year there's ever more coverage and reporting.

Not sure this is the slam dunk you think it is.

Maybe that’s because in the mens game millions of people watching it every week in person with hundred of millions watching globally on TV. 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

So you’re saying they inherited your dinosaur views? Makes sense. 

Just out of interest How many womens games have you been to over the last 5 seasons?

[Big Ron fan]

Can someone please move this discussion on the relative merits of women's football to another thread?

 

[Turkish]

18 minutes ago, Chewy said:

Yep, far better to stick rigidly to the social norms you were born into. Then you can really grow into the stereotype grumpy old man with dinosaur views, stewing every more miserably about how it’s not like it used to be.

”Nothing makes sense any more”

Youre gonna be tonnes of fun in your old peoples home

As opposed to the stereotype response that if people don’t agree with something that’s currently fashionable they’re a miserable dinosaur without dated views. 🙄

[Ed Rooney]

I’m lost is our next signing a women, haven’t we enough of them in the squad anyway 

[Turkish]

14 minutes ago, Dorchester Saint said:

Yeah and all their mates….🙄

It makes me laugh that a lot of people about how they love to see saints in the premier league with one of the main reasons being the quality of football yet at the same time people will argue how amazing womens football is, despite the quality of football generally being really reallly poor. 

[SW11_Saint]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I watched a bit of England v Latvia game because I’d seen them going on about how brilliant England were playing and on for a record breaking score. The Latvia team were embarrassingly shit. Their defenders could barely kick a ball, their clearances didn’t leave the penalty area, the u9s team j could could have put up better opposition.

We have some girls in the team I coach, some of them are really keen and not bad players. I was pleased when saints team got promoted, but then I’d support anyone representing Southampton. I bet most people couldn’t name more than a three or for of England’s squad for the Euros, who and when they’re playing etc. if people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think it’s the right thing to be seen to do.

Incorrect. Hard as it clearly is for you to fathom, people enjoy the womens game. I certainly do. Have a season ticket for Saints women and go every Sunday. Last season was fantastic.

It’s a different game though - simply saying “it’s shit” means you are missing the point. Women’s athletics is different to men’s. What is better is the lack of ego and histrionics in women’s football, and there is much better sportsmanship, even at junior levels. I much prefer watching my daughter’s games to my son’s. 
 

if you don’t like it, or - oddly - it makes you angry, just don’t watch it. There are plenty of people who do like it, and it’s a very fast-growing sport. Can’t wait for the Euros…

[SW11_Saint]

21 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Just out of interest How many womens games have you been to over the last 5 seasons?

At a rough estimate, including my daughters games, I’d say about 150-200. 

[Badger]

43 minutes ago, Turkish said:

We have some girls in the team I coach, some of them are really keen and not bad players. I was pleased when saints team got promoted, but then I’d support anyone representing Southampton. I bet most people couldn’t name more than a three or for of England’s squad for the Euros, who and when they’re playing etc. if people are really honest with themselves they only really support it because they think it’s the right thing to be seen to do.

I don't take issue with the women's game, good luck to them, but the promotion of it, and the media - BBC in particular - looking to elevate it and talk of it as if at the same standard as the men's game is ridiculous.

Wonder what the fall out from all the media 'luvvies' will be when someone transitions to play Woman's football. Can imagine the interview with Pauline Pogba in a dress saying that "she's" really a woman and the fact "she" has transitioned hasn't given her any physical advantage over the others in the sport.

[Midlandsaint]

1 hour ago, Dorchester Saint said:

Agreed!! I tried watching it once, I gave up the first time a goal kick failed to reach the halfway line. Womens football is f*cking shit! 
 

Same with female commentators being forced onto our screens during mens games…..go and commentate on the womens game, we don’t want all that screeching ffs!! 

You’d rather listen to Michael Owen, Savage, Murphy, Carragher etc commentate? Now you’re just talking bollocks. Emma Hayes and Alex Scott will most definitely have a more valid opinion than you, whilst I agree womens football is sub par, the mens commentary is shite and biased, open your eyes and stop being a misogynistic bellpiece

[Miltonaggro]

11 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't take issue with the women's game, good luck to them, but the promotion of it, and the media - BBC in particular - looking to elevate it and talk of it as if at the same standard as the men's game is ridiculous.

Wonder what the fall out from all the media 'luvvies' will be when someone transitions to play Woman's football. Can imagine the interview with Pauline Pogba in a dress saying that "she's" really a woman and the fact "she" has transitioned hasn't given her any physical advantage over the others in the sport.

My money is on Janet Vestergaard. World class centre half. 

[Lighthouse]

Are there any women on this thread?
 

[Dman]

Wether you’re into it or not, no one can deny that the standard (even more so at the saints girls level), is nothing short of pathetic and inline with a Hampshire league team, if not lower. 
 

For that reason alone; it’s a massive no from me. 
 

Didn’t the USA women’s team, who are apparently deemed one of the best in the world, get spanked by an U-15’s team 😂😂😂

[egg]

51 minutes ago, SW11_Saint said:

Incorrect. Hard as it clearly is for you to fathom, people enjoy the womens game. I certainly do. Have a season ticket for Saints women and go every Sunday. Last season was fantastic.

It’s a different game though - simply saying “it’s shit” means you are missing the point. Women’s athletics is different to men’s. What is better is the lack of ego and histrionics in women’s football, and there is much better sportsmanship, even at junior levels. I much prefer watching my daughter’s games to my son’s. 
 

if you don’t like it, or - oddly - it makes you angry, just don’t watch it. There are plenty of people who do like it, and it’s a very fast-growing sport. Can’t wait for the Euros…

You're focusing on people choosing to follow the women's game. People can do that if they want, and you make some good points about the lack of ego etc. It's a different issue though to it featuring on the BBC webpage etc alongside men's football. As you say "it's a different game" so they could have separate sections for mens football and women's football so that those who have an interest in that game can check it out the news if they want to. 

[nta786]

22 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Are there any women on this thread?

Edited 20 June, 2022 by nta786

[The Cat]

38 minutes ago, egg said:

You're focusing on people choosing to follow the women's game. People can do that if they want, and you make some good points about the lack of ego etc. It's a different issue though to it featuring on the BBC webpage etc alongside men's football. As you say "it's a different game" so they could have separate sections for mens football and women's football so that those who have an interest in that game can check it out the news if they want to. 

Out of interest, do the BBC have separate pages for women's cricket, golf etc? Or are they lumped in with the men's too?

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

Wether you’re into it or not, no one can deny that the standard (even more so at the saints girls level), is nothing short of pathetic and inline with a Hampshire league team, if not lower. 
 

For that reason alone; it’s a massive no from me. 
 

Didn’t the USA women’s team, who are apparently deemed one of the best in the world, get spanked by an U-15’s team 😂😂😂

Yes they lost 5-2 to Dallas U15s boys team. They won the World Cup the last two times it’s been played. 

[egg]

2 hours ago, The Cat said:

Out of interest, do the BBC have separate pages for women's cricket, golf etc? Or are they lumped in with the men's too?

You mean sports with a much smaller fanbase?

[Fabrice29]

11 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Unfortunately websites use click bait titles to get you to click on them, presumably to boost 'clicks'. Take this recent one for example, it wasn't until you clicked it that you knew it was a woman player, as on the main page it said Buchanan to take Terry's shirt number. Why they mix the game records as well I don't know, for example some woman beating Rooney's goal scoring record, or more appearances than Shilton.

To be honest they should just ditch men's and women's and have mixed. Same with all sports seeing as its all about equality and same pay now.

Just on this, because the rest of the chat is utter drivel, you say ‘it wasn’t until you clicked on it that you knew it was a woman player’ but that’s more of a reflection on your ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding the mens game as well as the womens game.

For a start Kadeisha is a womans name. Secondly, she’s a top player in the woman’s game and thirdly even if you aren’t aware of the first two facts, you have to have a serious lack of mens football knowledge to be completely unaware of anyone Chelsea sign, not least because they rarely sign completely unknown players but also they rarely sign someone so out of the blue that you wouldn’t have been able to miss the speculation of it up to this point.
 

So clicking on that because you didn’t know who the person was isn’t catching you out deciptively at all, it’s just showing you up for a lack of knowledge and how easily influenced by click bait headlines you are.

[Micky]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Yes they lost 5-2 to Dallas U15s boys team. They won the World Cup the last two times it’s been played. 

But are quick to claim equality...!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/feb/22/us-womens-team-reach-landmark-24m-settlement-in-equal-pay-battle

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

Just on this, because the rest of the chat is utter drivel, you say ‘it wasn’t until you clicked on it that you knew it was a woman player’ but that’s more of a reflection on your ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding the mens game as well as the womens game.

For a start Kadeisha is a womans name. Secondly, she’s a top player in the woman’s game and thirdly even if you aren’t aware of the first two facts, you have to have a serious lack of mens football knowledge to be completely unaware of anyone Chelsea sign, not least because they rarely sign completely unknown players but also they rarely sign someone so out of the blue that you wouldn’t have been able to miss the speculation of it up to this point.
 

So clicking on that because you didn’t know who the person was isn’t catching you out deciptively at all, it’s just showing you up for a lack of knowledge and how easily influenced by click bait headlines you are.

TBF there has been numerous occasions where the BBC sport site has a headline similar to "Chelsea thrash Man City" and then I go to click on it and its actually women's football. Its not the end of the world but it is a bit irritating and I do suspect they are deliberately ambiguous. 

[Mystic Force]

The fact is that the top women's game does not currently have players of a similar skill level to that of the top men's game. I do not expect them to physically be the same. It is the attempt to make out that they should be considered equal in quality that is the problem. The women's game is improving, but it is like comparing MLS with the premier league. The games themselves can be fun to watch in their own context but I know watching Columbus Crew, this is not the same level as Watching Saints although the gap has closed in recent years. It should be enjoyed on it own merits and people should admit there is currently less interest. To pretend it is not is counter productive.

The US women's teams constant moaning is not really helping which seems to be more about pushing an agenda outside their sport, than their own game"s advance and the boasting of their achievements when really they have been beating up on under resourced chumps who will be knocking them off their pedestal soon enough as the rest of the women's game around the world catches up. Complaining about not making as much as the men for winning the world cup will look less relevant when they are unable to win it.

 

[Fabrice29]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

TBF there has been numerous occasions where the BBC sport site has a headline similar to "Chelsea thrash Man City" and then I go to click on it and its actually women's football. Its not the end of the world but it is a bit irritating and I do suspect they are deliberately ambiguous. 

Unless they’ve played the same day you will know it’s not the mens game though? They aren’t being ambiguous, they’re stating a headline just as they would if it was the mens game. Again, you clicking on it believing it to be for the mens game is down to you, not them. They’re certainly not being ambiguous if they’ve spent all week forcing it down your throat telling you the fixture is going to be played as everyone seems to be saying on here and then they tell you the result. 
 

If you really need everything sign posted with clear headlines stating ‘WOMENS GAME ALERT’ then my suggestion is you need educating in both forms of the game and that you aren’t taking in any of the coverage they’re forcing on you constantly.