10 Years in the Premier League

[Saint Mikey]

So, 10 years completed in the PL. Apart from the COVID disrupted season, we've clearly been unable to recover from the poor transfer dealings and managerial appointments post 2017. It's disappointing that we achieved less points than our 1st season in three seasons. Guess the league has also changed in that time. The margins in the transfer markets have narrowed and that has been compounded by our own financial constraints. Other teams have also stepped up with more financial clout.

Should we be happy that we've stayed in the league the last 10 years, given our slump into League 1? Were the top-half finishes a result of a timely exploitation of market conditions, conditions that have now changed? Are we likely to post a sequence of top-half finishes anytime soon? Is any club 'our size' likely to?

[Piran]

Yes. Possibly. Probably not. Again, possibly,

[Green]

We really were useless in 2017/18. 

Edited 13 June, 2022 by Green
grammar/sp

[S-Clarke]

I think we've done bloody well to say in this league post 2017. We did invest big money but it all failed, like you said we've never recovered from that. Clubs like us cannot afford to make 1 big mistake, let alone 6+ of them. Incredible amount of failings really.

It feels like last summer and this summer has been the start of recovering from that and building a fresher team. Investment is important for sure and without that we'll continue to be stuck in this horrible loop, so I'm looking for an initial investment in the next couple of windows with the inevitable sale for profit mantra starting up again as the likes of Salisu/Tino etc continue to flourish.

Koemans seasons were successful due to spending money complimented with good scouting. Being able to invest in VVD, Tadic, Mane, Pele, Toby, Bertrand to supplement Fonte, Morgan, Wanyama etc created a very good team.

We were able to use the money from the sales to get those guys in that first window, we still made mistakes (Gardos, Elia, Djuricic, Taider) but the money gave us a little more leeway.

Edited 13 June, 2022 by S-Clarke

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I think we've done bloody well to say in this league post 2017. We did invest big money but it all failed, like you said we've never recovered from that. Clubs like us cannot afford to make 1 big mistake, let alone 6+ of them. Incredible amount of failings really.

It feels like last summer and this summer has been the start of recovering from that and building a fresher team. Investment is important for sure and without that we'll continue to be stuck in this horrible loop, so I'm looking for an initial investment in the next couple of windows with the inevitable sale for profit mantra starting up again as the likes of Salisu/Tino etc continue to flourish.

Koemans seasons were successful due to spending money complimented with good scouting. Being able to invest in VVD, Tadic, Mane, Pele, Toby, Bertrand to supplement Fonte, Morgan, Wanyama etc created a very good team.

We were able to use the money from the sales to get those guys in that first window, we still made mistakes (Gardos, Elia, Djuricic, Taider) but the money gave us a little more leeway.

3 of those were loans and Gardos was a cheap back up player whose career was ruined by injury, not really mistakes. 

We didnt really invest big money, it was big for us because we've been conditioned to think £20m is big money but we only spent what we made from sales and our transfer fees are still way below comparable clubs. 10 years of premier league football with most of it with a sell to buy strategy, pretty remarkable that we've stayed up and that we've ended up so skint.

[nta786]

Don't care what anyone says but I'm proud we have managed 10 seasons in the PL and 27 seasons in a row before that in our previous stint. 

A lot of clubs would rip your arm off for longevity in the PL and it puts us on the map.

I'd love trophies too as much as the next person and wish our cabinet had more but ultimately if we're gonna win any in the future then we'll have to stay in the PL to do that. 

 

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

I dunno, part of me enjoyed the Fizzy pop and L1 days when we could actually compete and expect to win a few games. If staying in the prem means this dreary slog to get to 40 points every season then maybe we're better off out of it. Just a thought

Edited 13 June, 2022 by Golac's Cunning Stunts

[S-Clarke]

37 minutes ago, Turkish said:

3 of those were loans and Gardos was a cheap back up player whose career was ruined by injury, not really mistakes. 

We didnt really invest big money, it was big for us because we've been conditioned to think £20m is big money but we only spent what we made from sales and our transfer fees are still way below comparable clubs. 10 years of premier league football with most of it with a sell to buy strategy, pretty remarkable that we've stayed up and that we've ended up so skint.

Yeah, that's true - it wasn't our money as such, it was all created from our sales. But it does demonstrate that you need to spend decent amounts to be successful in this league, if you can sell-to-buy like Leicester for example then it works well and you can keep the wheels revolving.

We tried to reinvest what we got from Mane, Tadic, Wanyama, Morgan, VVD etc and just spent it on a load of shite. Then we couldn't sell that shite to keep the sell to buy wheel rolling, so we were stuck with the crap trying to suck anything we could out of it.

I don't have a problem with the re-invest what you sell model as such, but the problem comes when you don't have anything to sell and the ownership is unwilling to put the initial investment up to start the wheels going again. I have confidence that we'll see that happening over the next two summers.

[Mr Nimbus]

I think it's only going to get harder to stay in the league.

With the increased spending power of the "middle tier clubs" and us likely to continue our model, all be it with possibly more finances available,  I think things may finally catch up on us.

I'm not sure we can continually get away with the runs we go on where we just lose game after game, especially away from home.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Mr Nimbus said:

I think it's only going to get harder to stay in the league.

With the increased spending power of the "middle tier clubs" and us likely to continue our model, all be it with possibly more finances available,  I think things may finally catch up on us.

I'm not sure we can continually get away with the runs we go on where we just lose game after game, especially away from home.

I think our model will work, if the scouting is better. As long as we're prepared to look in the 20m market with a view to at least double the money when they're sold, it could work or us. We just need that initial investment over the next couple of windows to restart that cycle.

Dortmund and RB do it perfectly. They invest when they need to invest, but primarily their income is from the large sales they get. There is mileage in the model, but it really does require the scouting to be totally on point.

[saintwbu]

10 years of safety and only one genuine relegation battle, with European football, 2 FA Cup semi finals and a League Cup final we should’ve won. Some fantastic players, some fantastic football, some really good managers and great moments. It’s had its downs but for a club running on probably the smallest budget in the league when averaged over that period, i’d say we’ve done pretty well. Hopefully we’re at the beginning of a bit of an up period again but time will tell.

[Mr Nimbus]

Just now, S-Clarke said:

I think our model will work, if the scouting is better. As long as we're prepared to look in the 20m market with a view to at least double the money when they're sold, it could work or us. We just need that initial investment over the next couple of windows to restart that cycle.

Dortmund and RB do it perfectly. They invest when they need to invest, but primarily their income is from the large sales they get. There is mileage in the model, but it really does require the scouting to be totally on point.

I agree in theory with the model. I also quite like that we "do it different" I guess Dortmund & RB can pick up a better quality of replacement due to money and CL football. 

[S-Clarke]

16 minutes ago, Mr Nimbus said:

I agree in theory with the model. I also quite like that we "do it different" I guess Dortmund & RB can pick up a better quality of replacement due to money and CL football. 

They do have an edge with regards to CL football, but I think we should also play on our unique selling point compared to those two - we're in the PL. Arguably the best league in the world, players would love to come here and test themselves against the best players. That has to be seen as attractive in my opinion.

If they want CL football, the notion is simple...they do well for us and get their move to a CL club in the PL in a season or two.

There's no reason why we can't be looking for the next Haaland or Nkunku before they get to Dortmund and RB.

Edited 13 June, 2022 by S-Clarke

[Sunglasses Ron]

1 hour ago, nta786 said:

Don't care what anyone says but I'm proud we have managed 10 seasons in the PL and 27 seasons in a row before that in our previous stint. 

A lot of clubs would rip your arm off for longevity in the PL and it puts us on the map.

I'd love trophies too as much as the next person and wish our cabinet had more but ultimately if we're gonna win any in the future then we'll have to stay in the PL to do that. 

 

Yup, I've argued this before.  10 years in the PL is a form of success, and we should celebrate it.

Whilst fun at times, languishing in the lower leagues will definitely not increase our chances of winning any silverware of note, so our best bet is to keep battling it out in the top flight, hope we can re-visit the heights of the Poch / Koeman years and maybe convert one of the previous 3 cup semi / finals into a long overdue victory.

[Saint Mikey]

5 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

They do have an edge with regards to CL football, but I think we should also play on our unique selling point compared to those two - we're in the PL. Arguably the best league in the world, players would love to come here and test themselves against the best players. That has to be seen as attractive in my opinion.

If they want CL football, the notion is simple...they do well for us and get their move to a CL club in the PL in a season or two.

There's no reason why we can't be looking for the next Haaland or Nkunku before they get to Dortmund and RB.

I'm hoping that the multi-club structure (if it happens) will be a huge plus for us. We can identify players early, pay smaller fees and allow them to develop away from the league, but within a framework that we influence. Brighton will start to reap the rewards of Union SG (Bloom's other club) in this way. They've had players on loan there and one (Undav) looks like he'll get a crack this year, in pre-season, at least.

[cloggy saint]

At the moment there are only seven clubs who have been in the top flight longer than us, the 'big six' and Everton. That alone tells you what an achievement it is for us.

[Bad Wolf]

I'm pleased but quite bored of the PL now. As someone who started supporting Saints literally a few months before we we relegated, I always just really wanted us to come up even just for a season just to have supported Saints for a full season in the PL. The novelty has well and truly warn off and tbh I think most things were better in The Championship; Better fans, better atmosphere's, more unpredictability.`

[SNSUN]

I'm normally quite positive but I feel that If we're not careful we are slipping back to our 90's staple of being perrenial Relegation battlers, only this time we've traded the genius of MLT for the engine and set piece wizardry of JWP. We've seen the likes of Wolves, Villa, Newcastle, West Ham all come up and strengthen and next season we will have Fulham and Bournemouth, both who still have Premier League quality players, and a Forest side that will be determined to do well. Next season will be our toughest test yet since we've been back in the Prem - not only do we need to sort out the CB situation but we desperately need attacking players to come in and do well from the off. We don't really have any game changers in the ranks - that is what I'd like to see us bring in more than anything.

 

It has been a roller coaster ten years - we came up and upset the applecart with players that just kept getting better through the leagues (Morgan, Lallana, Lambert, Fonte), then strengthened under Pochettino and Koeman. I worry about next season - I await to see what transfer miracles we accomplish but I'm not holding my breath. I think we needed a fresh vision in management and decent investment in the squad. We're not getting the former but may yet get the latter but I'm not holding my breath.

[HarvSFC]

I like reminiscing and the other week I looked at the 2014-15 Premier League table to remind myself that we once finished 7th. I know we finished higher and did better the following season, but that's not relevant to this little tid bit. What is, is that the clubs who finished 8th and 9th in 2014-15 were Swansea and Stoke. Following this, Swansea and Stoke made a string of errors, appointing the wrong managers in Paul Clement, Paul Lambert and Bob Bradley, a number of costly transfers in Berahino, Bojan, Wimmer, Imbula, Borja Baston and Renato Sanches, while not replacing stars sufficiently like the one currently at Everton, Bony, Michu and Arnautovic. Now, both are firmly lodged in the mid-table mediocrity of the Championship. Just goes to show how quickly everything can fall apart up here and while we have made many mistakes over the last few years, we have also done extremely well to maintain our top tier status.

I know some say that they prefer when we were in the Championship and League One, but that was when we were winning most weeks. The seasons post the play-offs under George Burley and Jan Poortvliet were far worse than this when we tried to hype the signings of Lee Molyneux and Ryan Smith to name but a couple, and that's the danger that comes with relegation. Watford and Norwich, I'm sure are also sick of being yo-yo teams, despite having one season every other year of celebrations. It's very hard to come back up and establish yourselves these days, given the disparity in finances and while we're up here we still have the potential of signing the next superstar, or even bringing them through and not having to let them go at the first instance like we had to with Walcott, Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain before (although we still do give it a go).

The longer we're up here, the longer our gap against Portsmouth increases too, and that's what I take delight in. We're at the top table, yes we may lose to Arsenal, Leicester, West Ham, etc. But, it's a damn sight better than losing to Stevenage, Accrington and Harrogate.

Edited 13 June, 2022 by HarvSFC

[Jonnyboy]

Ooof those goal differences 🤦

[Bad Wolf]

1 hour ago, HarvSFC said:

I like reminiscing and the other week I looked at the 2014-15 Premier League table to remind myself that we once finished 7th. I know we finished higher and did better the following season, but that's not relevant to this little tid bit. What is, is that the clubs who finished 8th and 9th in 2014-15 were Swansea and Stoke. Following this, Swansea and Stoke made a string of errors, appointing the wrong managers in Paul Clement, Paul Lambert and Bob Bradley, a number of costly transfers in Berahino, Bojan, Wimmer, Imbula, Borja Baston and Renato Sanches, while not replacing stars sufficiently like the one currently at Everton, Bony, Michu and Arnautovic. Now, both are firmly lodged in the mid-table mediocrity of the Championship. Just goes to show how quickly everything can fall apart up here and while we have made many mistakes over the last few years, we have also done extremely well to maintain our top tier status.

I know some say that they prefer when we were in the Championship and League One, but that was when we were winning most weeks. The seasons post the play-offs under George Burley and Jan Poortvliet were far worse than this when we tried to hype the signings of Lee Molyneux and Ryan Smith to name but a couple, and that's the danger that comes with relegation. Watford and Norwich, I'm sure are also sick of being yo-yo teams, despite having one season every other year of celebrations. It's very hard to come back up and establish yourselves these days, given the disparity in finances and while we're up here we still have the potential of signing the next superstar, or even bringing them through and not having to let them go at the first instance like we had to with Walcott, Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain before (although we still do give it a go).

The longer we're up here, the longer our gap against Portsmouth increases too, and that's what I take delight in. We're at the top table, yes we may lose to Arsenal, Leicester, West Ham, etc. But, it's a damn sight better than losing to Stevenage, Accrington and Harrogate.

Excellent post

[Badger]

 

5 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Dortmund and RB do it perfectly. They invest when they need to invest, but primarily their income is from the large sales they get. There is mileage in the model, but it really does require the scouting to be totally on point.

 

4 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

There's no reason why we can't be looking for the next Haaland or Nkunku before they get to Dortmund and RB.

This is the critical thing really, getting the players in before they go to the Bundesliga, PSV (Sangarre), or to some extent Serie A. Once fully established and proven in those leagues the players we want are mostly out of our reach.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

5 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

They do have an edge with regards to CL football, but I think we should also play on our unique selling point compared to those two - we're in the PL. Arguably the best league in the world, players would love to come here and test themselves against the best players. That has to be seen as attractive in my opinion.

If they want CL football, the notion is simple...they do well for us and get their move to a CL club in the PL in a season or two.

There's no reason why we can't be looking for the next Haaland or Nkunku before they get to Dortmund and RB.

I'm fairly sure someone at the club said that they were also looking at this as a recruitment strategy. Trying to get  a Sancho while at Watford or a Bellingham while at Birmingham, along with getting the top Academy talent from bigger clubs, and offering them a pathway too. 

Ankersen helping us use the Brighton/ Brentford method of recognising value/ particular traits in players adds another strand. With our own youth players and players already here, we've got the basis of a proactive, robust strategy.

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

I'm fairly sure someone at the club said that they were also looking at this as a recruitment strategy. Trying to get  a Sancho while at Watford or a Bellingham while at Birmingham, along with getting the top Academy talent from bigger clubs, and offering them a pathway too. 

Ankersen helping us use the Brighton/ Brentford method of recognising value/ particular traits in players adds another strand. With our own youth players and players already here, we've got the basis of a proactive, robust strategy.

It makes sense, it's kind of what we did with Tino really. I just don't think we can rely on that model for every single transfer, not whilst our established players - bar 1 or 2 - are very poor. So we need a bit of a leg me up in the next couple of windows to baulk out the quality of the squad, we can still find the gems and then let them flourish in a better team. That'll get us back on the right track.

[FarehamSaintJames]

I just remember how class our team was in the 2014-16 seasons.
Must’ve felt so good as attacking players knowing you had José Fonte, Virgil van Dijk and Fraser Forster (yes he was solid then) at the back, thus giving you the confidence and freedom to go out and attack the opposition.

Memories.. 😢

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

I just remember how class our team was in the 2014-16 seasons.
Must’ve felt so good as attacking players knowing you had José Fonte, Virgil van Dijk and Fraser Forster (yes he was solid then) at the back, thus giving you the confidence and freedom to go out and attack the opposition.

Memories.. 😢

Two good defenders, a solid defensive midfielder and a box to box midfielder, plus a vaguely competent keeper and guess what you don’t concede many, who’d have thought it 

🤯

[Dragon_man]

7 hours ago, SNSUN said:

I'm normally quite positive but I feel that If we're not careful we are slipping back to our 90's staple of being perrenial Relegation battlers, only this time we've traded the genius of MLT for the engine and set piece wizardry of JWP. We've seen the likes of Wolves, Villa, Newcastle, West Ham all come up and strengthen and next season we will have Fulham and Bournemouth, both who still have Premier League quality players, and a Forest side that will be determined to do well. Next season will be our toughest test yet since we've been back in the Prem - not only do we need to sort out the CB situation but we desperately need attacking players to come in and do well from the off. We don't really have any game changers in the ranks - that is what I'd like to see us bring in more than anything.

 

It has been a roller coaster ten years - we came up and upset the applecart with players that just kept getting better through the leagues (Morgan, Lallana, Lambert, Fonte), then strengthened under Pochettino and Koeman. I worry about next season - I await to see what transfer miracles we accomplish but I'm not holding my breath. I think we needed a fresh vision in management and decent investment in the squad. We're not getting the former but may yet get the latter but I'm not holding my breath.

This is so spot on. For a variety of reasons, many of which you've outlined, I think next season is going to be very very difficult. Have our new owners got their heads around it? I'm not sure they have. 

It won't be long before premiership clubs cannot be run as a viable businesses. They will be be playthings for large SWFs, individuals and other undesirables. A proxy competitive war between the uber wealthy. Eg PSG. 

Dragan's £90m 'investment' could so easily turn into a loss.

We should really praying for a buy-out!

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Dragon_man said:

This is so spot on. For a variety of reasons, many of which you've outlined, I think next season is going to be very very difficult. Have our new owners got their heads around it? I'm not sure they have. 

It won't be long before premiership clubs cannot be run as a viable businesses. They will be be playthings for large SWFs, individuals and other undesirables. A proxy competitive war between the uber wealthy. Eg PSG. 

Dragan's £90m 'investment' could so easily turn into a loss.

We should really praying for a buy-out!

I believe in rasmus he’s done a Ted talk and looks cool with his rolled up sleeves. Ticks every box for a modern leader