Is Salisu overrated and is Bednarek unfairly blamed?

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

OK - it's obvious to state the fact that Bednarek had a really poor end to the season. It is also true to say that at the start of the season Salisu did do some good stuff and showed some solid improvement...

However....

• While Salisu has great potential, he is still young and still very inexperienced; he is still prone to far too many errors for a first choice Premier League defender. He has a very annoying tendency to get himself out of position and is slow to get back in position when he does; and like many of the central defenders we have had in recent years, he has a tendency to ball watch at times.
• Bednarek is the experienced central defender who has done well in the past but has been expected to cover for the others; and that is a hugely demanding role when we play both full-backs as wing back and when Salisu also loves to charge forwards! It leaves Bednarek exposed and struggling to cover everyone else. The result has been that he hasn't been able to do that - after all he is only human and cannot be expected to do the job of four players!

I think some of the finger pointing that has been aimed at Bednarek should also be pointed at Salisu. I also think that some of scapegoating of Bednarek has not been great for his confidence and he has always struck me as a confidence player.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that Bednarek is without blame, but I do wonder if we would see much better from him if paired with a higher quality central defensive partner; and maybe in the future when Salisu has reached the required quality, then maybe Bednarek and Salisu will be able to form a decent defensive partnership in the way they have failed to do this season.

I would personally be happy for Bednarek to be kept on - either as the second CB in a partnership with a new quality CB, or as a quality reserve option to bring in when another CB is injured. I hope that if that happens, our fans will stop lambasting and blaming him for any and every mistake - even ones that are not his fault - and will give him the confidence to shine.

[Saint_clark]

Too complicated a subject for me to get into right now, but one thing I will say in Bednareks defence is I think he is actually much better suited to playing left sided CB, he always looks better for us when he's there and he plays there for Poland too.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Too complicated a subject for me to get into right now, but one thing I will say in Bednareks defence is I think he is actually much better suited to playing left sided CB, he always looks better for us when he's there and he plays there for Poland too.

This is a very good point! What we need is a right-sided centre back (or two) and then let Salisu and Bednarek fight it out for the left centre-back berth.

[saintscottofthenortham]

Salisu has it in him to be a very good defender. He just needs time for me, as his decision making is seriously lacking. Still very young, and only this season has really got a run of games. With a good CB next to him, I think he'll come on rapidly.

Bednarek, is woeful. 

[HarvSFC]

Salisu is still very raw, had an excellent game against a world class opposition in Man City, but then has also had some shockers, like against Tottenham where he was trying too much and ended up getting a red for a couple of mistimed tackles. He's just inconsistent at the moment, which you can forgive for his age, but Van Dijk and Lovren were 23 when they joined us and were of a higher level. I don't think he's too great on the ball either, which given the way modern football is heading could hamper him. His throw-ins... yeah, pretty shit.

Bednarek, there isn't a lot between him and Stephens and weirdly their best form in a Southampton shirt came when they were paired up during lockdown football, although was quickly ripped up following a couple of heavy defeats. Following the City cup game, I'm not sure Bednarek's a player I'd want if we do get pulled into a relegation fight. Did not realise he was 26 until now, either.

[miserableoldgit]

I thought that before his injury, Salisu was immense but since coming back he seems off the pace with his decision making. I think that given time he will be outstanding. As for Bednarek, he certainly isn't anywhere near as bad as some on here make out. I think that he is decent, but average CB.

[Teddeer]

1 hour ago, SaintJackoInHurworth said:

OK - it's obvious to state the fact that Bednarek had a really poor end to the season. It is also true to say that at the start of the season Salisu did do some good stuff and showed some solid improvement...

However....

• While Salisu has great potential, he is still young and still very inexperienced; he is still prone to far too many errors for a first choice Premier League defender. He has a very annoying tendency to get himself out of position and is slow to get back in position when he does; and like many of the central defenders we have had in recent years, he has a tendency to ball watch at times.
• Bednarek is the experienced central defender who has done well in the past but has been expected to cover for the others; and that is a hugely demanding role when we play both full-backs as wing back and when Salisu also loves to charge forwards! It leaves Bednarek exposed and struggling to cover everyone else. The result has been that he hasn't been able to do that - after all he is only human and cannot be expected to do the job of four players!

I think some of the finger pointing that has been aimed at Bednarek should also be pointed at Salisu. I also think that some of scapegoating of Bednarek has not been great for his confidence and he has always struck me as a confidence player.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that Bednarek is without blame, but I do wonder if we would see much better from him if paired with a higher quality central defensive partner; and maybe in the future when Salisu has reached the required quality, then maybe Bednarek and Salisu will be able to form a decent defensive partnership in the way they have failed to do this season.

I would personally be happy for Bednarek to be kept on - either as the second CB in a partnership with a new quality CB, or as a quality reserve option to bring in when another CB is injured. I hope that if that happens, our fans will stop lambasting and blaming him for any and every mistake - even ones that are not his fault - and will give him the confidence to shine.

I'd be more than happy if Bednarek could do the job of one player - his own.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

15 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

I'd be more than happy if Bednarek could do the job of one player - his own.

The problem is that he rarely gets the chance to do just his own job as he ends up covering for others. Whether that is his own fault or whether that is what has been asked for him, who knows? Even so we would probably criticise him even more if he didn't make the effort to cover for Salisu, Stephens or Lyanco when they go missing. Which leaves him as the mug who is always blamed; and when he is the one being continually blamed his confidence drops and he begins to just look desparate - which is where he has ended up.

I just have to ask the question: why, when he plays with a decent defensive partner (e.g. for Poland) has he always looked a much better player? He is never going to be a world beater and I am not for a moment claiming he is a GREAT defender, but I definitely think that at his best he can be semi-decent and that some of the criticism he recieves is over-the-top.

[Smirking_Saint]

Salisu is a very good defender and Id say Bednarek is generally better than he gets portrayed on here, but both suffered behind what eventually became a double pivot that wasn’t effective from February onwards and tactics that left us too open, too often

[Bad Wolf]

Salisu has had more good games in a year than Begnerak has had in 5 years.

[HKsaint]

I remember Salisu was a beast in our defence and we all resigned to losing him to a big club for a big fee during the summer. But all out of sudden, he turned to another person in the last 10 games. The up side is that he will not go anywhere. If we can sign a new long term contract with him and turn him back to what he was, he will resolve our defence problem. 

[austsaint]

1 hour ago, HKsaint said:

I remember Salisu was a beast in our defence and we all resigned to losing him to a big club for a big fee during the summer. But all out of sudden, he turned to another person in the last 10 games. The up side is that he will not go anywhere. If we can sign a new long term contract with him and turn him back to what he was, he will resolve our defence problem. 

Yes, the silver lining in Salisu's loss of form post injury is he likely stays and hopefully signs a new contract.   He's going to be a top flight defender and has every attribute already except sharp decision making and a long throw technique.    Bednarek is not an awful player but if the opportunity for a sale is there this Summer it's a no brainer to offload and replace.

 

[saintwbu]

Bednarek has been terrible since the United 9-0, and before that he was average. He spends far too much time wrestling with strikers for me, and loses the battle every time. Every physical centre forward targets him, look at the Wolves goal at St Mary’s this season where Jimenez does it. He’s become a liability, and the suggestion that he didn’t fancy playing the FA Cup game against City should’ve been the end of his time here.

[Paulwantsapint81]

Van dyke & loveren both played next to Fonte who was experienced in being the organiser 

Currently none of the team are organisers 

[S-Clarke]

Bednarek is pretty much as average as you get, he was 23/24 when Ralph came in and he probably saw potential but sadly he just hasn't progressed at all.

The way we play does leave the back 4 quite exposed, certainly when the press gets played through, but that just shows me that we need a better CB and Number 6 who can nullify those threats.

There's nothing that really stands out about him. He's not strong and gets out muscled very easily, he's slow as all hell and can get turned on the break, he's poor on the ball and is prone to brain fart passes out of the defence and mentally he's not a 'leader' type, he wilts when the going gets tough.

Salisu is young, very young. Inexperienced and learning a new league. The difference with Salisu are his raw attributes, he has pace, he has strength and power so immediately he offers us more than Bednarek. But as he's inexperienced he will dip and waiver, that's where he needs a Fonte type figure to see him through which we don't have. 

So Salisu is our future, we just need to ensure we compliment him with a much better CB who can help his game. No problem with Bednarek being relegated as a squad player, which is what he was signed for in the first place, but we do need to do much better than him. He's been one of the consistent factors in our pitiful defence for 3 years.

[nta786]

33 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Bednarek is pretty much as average as you get, he was 23/24 when Ralph came in and he probably saw potential but sadly he just hasn't progressed at all.

See I think he has progressed and reached his potential, which is a lower/bottom-half PL player, and I don't think he will get better than that. 

Not every young player will reach Van Dijk or Mane levels, but will likelier just top off at being an average PL player. 

https://www.allsoccer.co.uk/news/ive-scored-lots-of-goals-against-premier-league-top-clubs-i-dont-feel-the-need-to-prove-myself-in-the-league-robert-lewandoski/

“I feel like I have scored a lot of goals against Premier league top clubs while playing for a Bundesliga club. Now what sense will it make for me to move to England to prove myself against Southampton? I saw Cavani moving from the French Ligue 1 saving Manchester United last season multiple times. So why didn’t he fail? Because they say to me come prove yourself in Premier League. Cavani was a top striker despite not playing in Premier League before and he will be forever be top striker like other strikers around the world. Stay where you are happy, for me the only place to prove your worth is in the Champions League because you only play against Champions.”

Lewandowski's comments above made me laugh, because what he says it true. He must see his compatriot Bednarek during the internationals and think "how is he is good enough to start for a PL team?"

[Saint_clark]

Interesting to note that Salisu made more interceptions than any other player in the league, and second in that list...was Bednarek. Clearly they're instructed to be more aggressive in trying to win the ball back, and when it works it works well but when it doesn't it leaves us massively exposed. 

This makes me feel more and more that we'd be suited to a 3-4-3 style formation, so when a centreback steps up and presses for the ball there's still two more to cover. Less risk when the fullbacks bomb forward, our midfield two sitting and transitioning the ball without needing to be too mobile and a front three ready to press the defense at multiple points.

Hypothetical line up to follow...

------------Dragowski

-----Tarkowski  Salisu Bednarek

KWP------JWP-----Romeu-----Perraud

----S. Armstrong Adams Nketiah

 

Another CB out of contract we should be looking at is Jason Denayer.

[StrangelyBrown]

I'm never really sure at what bednarek is really good at - he's not particularly physical (for a CB), he's not great with the ball, not great at reading the game, prone to occasional lapses of concentration that leave him out of position and tend to lead to goals, ... I guess he gets a few goals from corners.

Salisu on the other hand is a beast physically, is quick and reads the game well, is decent enough with the ball, but seemingly suffers from confidence problems and moments of sheer recklessness.

I can see salisu's potential beyond our level. Bednarek on the other hand has reached his which is lower end of the PL.

[SaintJackoInHurworth]

5 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

I'm never really sure at what bednarek is really good at - he's not particularly physical (for a CB), he's not great with the ball, not great at reading the game, prone to occasional lapses of concentration that leave him out of position and tend to lead to goals, ... I guess he gets a few goals from corners.

Salisu on the other hand is a beast physically, is quick and reads the game well, is decent enough with the ball, but seemingly suffers from confidence problems and moments of sheer recklessness.

I can see salisu's potential beyond our level. Bednarek on the other hand has reached his which is lower end of the PL.

I think it is a little bit unfair to say that Bednarek is prone to lapses of concentration. All of our centre backs are prone to that and if anything Bednarek is better than the others in that regard - though not perfect; and as I have said above, often the reason that he is found out of position is not entirely his own fault, because sometimes or even often the issue is that he is covering for others who are out of position!

On the other hand, as you have said, one issue with Bednarek may at times be his reading of the game and yes, he doesn't always look particularly happy with the ball, but that is not necessarily top of the criteria for judging a centre back - albeit it is something he needs to work on.

As for Salisu, I would agree he is physically strong and his speed is not too bad, though I don't think Bednarek does too badly in that regard either. I am not convinced his reading of the game is as good as you say at all though - he definitely needs to improve in that area and his recklessness is a result of that! Concentration is also a major concern. It is so frustrating seeing him suddenly realise that he is miles ahead of the play and needs to get back or that he is the nearest player to the ball and that the ball that is not being picked up behind him is the one that he should be getting!

While I agree that Salisu has potentially greater long term potential than Bednarek, I would still argue that at present Bednarek is, in some respects at least, still the better defender, though his form and confidence has been battered this season.

[East Kent Saint]

Perhaps they could watch the Real defence in the cup final every day before training , could pick up a few tips 😀

[suewhistle]

On 29/05/2022 at 06:25, East Kent Saint said:

Perhaps they could watch the Real defence in the cup final every day before training , could pick up a few tips 😀

And a few tips as to what to avoid in terms of back post defending from TAA. It very much reminded me of some of the goals we conceded..

[Christophenburg]

Salisu - no, absolutely not. We may not be capable of helping him realise his full potential, but he there is plenty there

Bednarek - maybe? He doesn't do himself any favours and when it goes wrong it goes very wrong, but he's probably not as bad as we all like to make out

[Smirking_Saint]

17 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

And a few tips as to what to avoid in terms of back post defending from TAA. It very much reminded me of some of the goals we conceded..

I didn’t understand that at all 😂

You even see him look over his shoulder, at the guy he has been defending against for 55 minutes… so he knows he is there

Awful defending 

[Nemi]

I’m sorry Bednarek gets caught diving in and over committing himself more than any defender I’ve ever seen. Salisu is pretty bad at doing it too but Bednarek has been doing it for 4/5 years now and has never once learnt. If Salisu is still doing the same thing in a few years then that’s the point to worry, but it’s his first season in the PL and he has time to develop.

Bednarek has consistently been making the same mistakes for years on end and it’s time to now bring in some more quality if we actually want to progress.

[tunit]

I saw that Salisu and Bednarek are number 1 and 2 on the most PL interceptions for last season. On the face of it this looks like a good thing but centre backs should not be needing to make that amount of interceptions. For example the rest of the top 5 are all midfielders. I think a lot of the errors they make are not due to their ability as players, but how we are defensively set up so I think its very unfair on them.

[Appy]

Bednarek is woeful, constantly gets drawn into physical battles with strikers, which is what they want, look at Zaha’s goal a few weeks ago, prime example, stupid amount of own goals too. 
 

Also didn’t want to play against City in the cup, shouldn’t have played again after that. 

[chuz]

2 hours ago, Appy said:

Also didn’t want to play against City in the cup, shouldn’t have played again after that. 

Personally I'm not a big fan of the way a comment made by Ralph after the Man City game has become indisputable fact that Bednarek didn't want to play (and that's not aimed at you @Appy but it seems to have become an accepted view that Bednarek was reluctant to play for us...

I read the situation as Ralph didn't think Bednarek would give 100 percent in the game and decided to drop him.  

We only ever heard from Ralph that: "He [Bednarek] is ok. He has a big game for Poland next week and it seems to me that he is not 100 per cent with his mind for us here today, so I didn't want to take a risk that perhaps in some moments he didn't want to take the last step to hurt himself. We need everyone in this game."

Personally I'm not a big fan of managers throwing players under the bus like this and I would have hoped Ralph had learned from doing so with McCarthy earlier in the season, which I believe he said he regretted later.  Bednarek has (again) to the best of my knowledge never mentioned this but perhaps wasn't especially pleased to be singled out for criticism in a game he didn't play in.

[The Left Back]

2 hours ago, Nemi said:

I’m sorry Bednarek gets caught diving in and over committing himself more than any defender I’ve ever seen. Salisu is pretty bad at doing it too but Bednarek has been doing it for 4/5 years now and has never once learnt. If Salisu is still doing the same thing in a few years then that’s the point to worry, but it’s his first season in the PL and he has time to develop.

Lyanco, Vestergard and Stephens also have this in their games, which makes me think it's less about capability and more about systems.  Ralph wants the CBs to get tight and press forwards rather than stand off; so sometimes they get caught out.  Salisu gets caught out the least cos he's fastest and similarly Vestergaard was terrible at this and he's the slowest.

Bednarek is a decent premier league CB who would be better suited to someone like West Ham than he would us, where high press and playing out with the ball are demanded.  So it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for a decent fee to a decent club and bought someone better suited to our style.

[Convict Colony]

[Toussaint]

Short answer, yes. But I would include Stephens in that as well. It has long been my opinion that our  defenders are made to look much more error prone than they would be were it not for our "style" which leaves them horribly exposed on a regular basis. Where Salisu scores over the others he has a burst of pace that allows him to recover situations, often of his own making. 

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Yes, Salisu is overrated but I don't think Bednarek is up to much either. 

In all honestly, neither are good enough.

[Matthew Le God]

11 minutes ago, Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd said:

Yes, Salisu is overrated but I don't think Bednarek is up to much either. 

In all honestly, neither are good enough.

Good enough for what?

[Toussaint]

42 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Good enough for what?

Sheep shearing. 

[Bailey]

Out of interest, has anyone yet commented on how our lack of midfield bite left our defence completely and utterly exposed during the recent poor run of form? Bednarek & Salisu both suffered as a result. All too often teams were able to make one relatively simple pass that took both JWP and Romeu out of the equation. It was particularly noticeable at Leeds (a) and was a common theme for the remainder of the season...we absolutely have to add pace & physicality in midfield this summer.

Edited 30 May, 2022 by Bailey
Spelling typo

[Professor]

The selectors for the Poland national team must be very poor at assessing the quality of players to keep picking a centre back who is as bad as the experts on the Saints' forum have declared Bednarek to be.  I wonder if some of the experts on here have applied for any of the coaching vacancies.  The club could do with some people who know it all.

[sydney_saint]

9 minutes ago, Professor said:

The selectors for the Poland national team must be very poor at assessing the quality of players to keep picking a centre back who is as bad as the experts on the Saints' forum have declared Bednarek to be.  I wonder if some of the experts on here have applied for any of the coaching vacancies.  The club could do with some people who know it all.

Bit of a rubbish argument. Outside the elite nations, most European countries have a handful of first team players that would struggle to play at EPL level. Bedareks CB partner in their last match plays in the Serie B. Just because you are good enough for Poland doesn't instantly mean you are good enough for the level we want to be playing at. 

[Nemi]

On 30/05/2022 at 14:09, The Left Back said:

Lyanco, Vestergard and Stephens also have this in their games, which makes me think it's less about capability and more about systems.  Ralph wants the CBs to get tight and press forwards rather than stand off; so sometimes they get caught out.  Salisu gets caught out the least cos he's fastest and similarly Vestergaard was terrible at this and he's the slowest.

Bednarek is a decent premier league CB who would be better suited to someone like West Ham than he would us, where high press and playing out with the ball are demanded.  So it wouldn't surprise me if we sold him for a decent fee to a decent club and bought someone better suited to our style.

Yeah fair enough, they are. But none of them are particularly great defenders either. All these players have had fairly unremarkable careers before (and after, if applicable) Southampton as they’re all pretty underwhelming players, probably not helped by poor tactics, but none of them will suddenly transform into good defenders in another team.