Coaching shake up - confirmed

[Paulwantsapint81]

Mentioned 2 years ago that Jose Fonte cdajfu as player coach, 

Think a player coach would be useful to have on the bench as a sub, to coach around 18 yard box

[Baird of the land]

12 minutes ago, Paulwantsapint81 said:

Mentioned 2 years ago that Jose Fonte cdajfu as player coach, 

Think a player coach would be useful to have on the bench as a sub, to coach around 18 yard box

No thanks. Let’s get actual skilled coaches rather than someone because they were once a player for us.

[Smirking_Saint]

If this is true then Id say its very poor form, especially from a club that slways ‘sells’ itself as a friendly family club

 

[VectisSaint]

2 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

If this is true then Id say its very poor form, especially from a club that slways ‘sells’ itself as a friendly family club

 

No it isn't. Why would the owners be involved. Crocker and HR, that's how business works.

[suewhistle]

Well, as fans we know the reasons, and I don't think it's much of a surprise. When I was made redundant (actually I volunteered, pretty please!) I dealt with a fairly low level of HR even if in other situations I'd talked directly to the HR director.

[Smirking_Saint]

Just now, VectisSaint said:

No it isn't. Why would the owners be involved. Crocker and HR, that's how business works.

But these are effectively senior management, this isn’t middle or lower employees

You would imagine atleast Ralph was there ?

In all fairness I might have over reacted when I first looked at it and read it as if Semmens/Crocker wasn’t there

[Lighthouse]

I’ve been laid off in the past. It was a 5 minute phone call from the personnel guy at our contracting agency, not a word from our CEO, catering dept. Or any of the board members.

The message is the same, however it’s delivered. I wouldn’t be precious about receiving the news via phone or video call. If anything I’d be annoyed at getting dragged in to work for something they could have told me in two minutes over the phone.

[The Kraken]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ve been laid off in the past. It was a 5 minute phone call from the personnel guy at our contracting agency, not a word from our CEO, catering dept. Or any of the board members.

The message is the same, however it’s delivered. I wouldn’t be precious about receiving the news via phone or video call. If anything I’d be annoyed at getting dragged in to work for something they could have told me in two minutes over the phone.

I’ve not been made redundant myself, though I’ve both previously sacked and made redundant people that worked for me. I can’t imagine doing either of those things, as their direct manager, without being involved in the process and being there when the final decision happened.

The owners, they’ve got no business getting their hands dirty with this. No blame in them.

I’d like to imagine Ralph talked it through with the three personally beforehand about what was going to happen. If he did, then fine. It’s a shitty thing to have to do and it needs to be done properly, both legally and morally. No idea if he did or didn’t so can’t comment on that process, but as their direct boss he should have interfaced with them at some point in the proceedings. 

[Smirking_Saint]

21 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I’ve not been made redundant myself, though I’ve both previously sacked and made redundant people that worked for me. I can’t imagine doing either of those things, as their direct manager, without being involved in the process and being there when the final decision happened.

The owners, they’ve got no business getting their hands dirty with this. No blame in them.

I’d like to imagine Ralph talked it through with the three personally beforehand about what was going to happen. If he did, then fine. It’s a shitty thing to have to do and it needs to be done properly, both legally and morally. No idea if he did or didn’t so can’t comment on that process, but as their direct boss he should have interfaced with them at some point in the proceedings. 

This ^

Ive had to let people go and did that face to face (with a HR rep) I couldn’t imagine doing it any other way

Thankfully Ive never been laid off, but I can’t imagine that it would be anything other than a conversation with my seniors UNLESS it was something like misconduct 

This isn’t P&O ferries, these guys have been an intimate part of the club for a long time and no doubt have strong relationships around the place, I admit that perhaps the owners wouldn’t need to be there, its probably over stepping boundaries but a video call with no Ralph or potentially a director seems a bit off

[S-Clarke]

12 hours ago, Smirking_Saint said:

If this is true then Id say its very poor form, especially from a club that slways ‘sells’ itself as a friendly family club

 

I don't know what you'd expect to see in this scenario. 

They were coaches in the backroom staff, you're not going to get the ownership of the club on a call to give them a send off. That doesn't happen in the real world anyway, I could give my company 20 years of service and I'd probably be told on a video call with my direct line manager and that would be that.

I imagine Ralph was fully briefed and involved before hand.

Edited 28 May, 2022 by S-Clarke

[Billy the Kidd]

12 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I’ve been laid off in the past. It was a 5 minute phone call from the personnel guy at our contracting agency, not a word from our CEO, catering dept. Or any of the board members.

The message is the same, however it’s delivered. I wouldn’t be precious about receiving the news via phone or video call. If anything I’d be annoyed at getting dragged in to work for something they could have told me in two minutes over the phone.

Exactly this. I worked for an Irish firm in maybe 2013, and they flew me to Belfast to fucking sack me.

I did end up getting a handsome pay off, but i told them what i thought about dragging me all that way to do it.

[Eric The Red]

My attitude to this depends on who was on the other end of the video call. If it was Crocker then  I suspect this is absolutely correct in terms of who is their senior line manager. Ralph is/was probably away and it's not something to dilly dally over. The old coaches need to be told and then new ones can be brought in.. As someone who has had 'to let people go' I would have preferred to do it face to face but it may simply be that not everybody was going to be together after Leicester until pre season was about to start

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I don't know what you'd expect to see in this scenario. 

They were coaches in the backroom staff, you're not going to get the ownership of the club on a call to give them a send off. That doesn't happen in the real world anyway, I could give my company 20 years of service and I'd probably be told on a video call with my direct line manager and that would be that.

I imagine Ralph was fully briefed and involved before hand.

Wasn’t Ralph their “direct line manager”? 
 

If Ralph wanted them gone, he should have told them face to face. If it was imposed on him, you’d hope he’d have spoken to them very very shortly after. If the last time they saw Ralph they knew nothing about this and he hasn’t been in contact since, it’s a pretty pretty poor show imo.
 

Once  I had redundancies imposed on my staff, 45 of them, and I personally thanked and said goodbye to every single one of them in person. It wasn’t my decision or my choice but they were my staff.  Ralph seems a decent man, so I’d imagine he did the right thing. But if he hasn’t that’s not great imo. 

Edited 28 May, 2022 by Lord Duckhunter

[Sheaf Saint]

Am I right in thinking that 2 of the 3 were out of contract this summer anyway? Sure I read that somewhere.

Do coaches have agents like players and managers do? I assume so, and If so then they would have known long before last week if they were being offered new contracts or not. 

Maybe, just maybe, they were told a while back (say around the time of the Villa game when everything went to shit), and the media are just sensationalising the story of the 'sacking' for clicks.

[Piran]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Am I right in thinking that 2 of the 3 were out of contract this summer anyway? Sure I read that somewhere.

Do coaches have agents like players and managers do? I assume so, and If so then they would have known long before last week if they were being offered new contracts or not. 

Maybe, just maybe, they were told a while back (say around the time of the Villa game when everything went to shit), and the media are just sensationalising the story of the 'sacking' for clicks.

This is what I suspect, Sheaf Saint. I would also suspect that within what is a pretty small group of people, that the coaches who are going would have known something was afoot, and that Ralph was aware of what was going to be imposed on him and his staff.

This all seems to me to be a 'natural' reaction by the new owners to do something, and I find some of the earlier suggestions that "we're stuck with another Gao. They're not doing anything" laughable! They have only been in place for this year!

[S-Clarke]

3 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Wasn’t Ralph their “direct line manager”? 
 

If Ralph wanted them gone, he should have told them face to face. If it was imposed on him, you’d hope he’d have spoken to them very very shortly after. If the last time they saw Ralph they knew nothing about this and he hasn’t been in contact since, it’s a pretty pretty poor show imo.
 

Once  I had redundancies imposed on my staff, 45 of them, and I personally thanked and said goodbye to every single one of them in person. It wasn’t my decision or my choice but they were my staff.  Ralph seems a decent man, so I’d imagine he did the right thing. But if he hasn’t that’s not great imo. 

No, I'd imagine their direct manager would be Matt Crocker and someone at that level.

[Nolan]

21 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

No, I'd imagine their direct manager would be Matt Crocker and someone at that level.

Hence why the people on the call were Matt Crocker and Representative from HR, As per the original article

Saints Extra should have just linked this and saved the confusion.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/american-football/ralph-hasenhuttl-and-southampton-owners-absent-as-three-coaches-sacked-via-video-call/ar-AAXLue6?ocid=uxbndlbing

 

[Mr X]

Hopefully the Austrian klopp has been told it's last chance saloon shape up or ship out.

 How long should he be given next season for example if we only win one game in our first ten? 🤔

 

 

[steve green]

5 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Wasn’t Ralph their “direct line manager”? 
 

If Ralph wanted them gone, he should have told them face to face. If it was imposed on him, you’d hope he’d have spoken to them very very shortly after. If the last time they saw Ralph they knew nothing about this and he hasn’t been in contact since, it’s a pretty pretty poor show imo.
 

Once  I had redundancies imposed on my staff, 45 of them, and I personally thanked and said goodbye to every single one of them in person. It wasn’t my decision or my choice but they were my staff.  Ralph seems a decent man, so I’d imagine he did the right thing. But if he hasn’t that’s not great imo. 

 

After the NHS community team I worked for were transfered to another NHS Trust I was asked by the new managers, as I was the senior nurse, to present and explain the new setup to the other staff. Half way through the presentation I noticed my role no longer existed, the buggers.

 

As to goalkeepers being top coaches I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the top candidate imo -

 

[Master Bates]

32 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Hopefully the Austrian klopp has been told it's last chance saloon shape up or ship out.

 How long should he be given next season for example if we only win one game in our first ten? 🤔

 

 

He has the first 12 games as someone mentioned on here.

I suppose unless we lose our first 5 games by 3+ goals

Edited 28 May, 2022 by Master Bates

[manji]

1 hour ago, Master Bates said:

He has the first 12 games as someone mentioned on here.

I suppose unless we lose our first 5 games by 3+ goals

Nonsense , decisions are being made . They have the perfect time. If there was any doubt about Ralph they’d do it now.

Edited 28 May, 2022 by manji

[Master Bates]

22 minutes ago, manji said:

Nonsense decisions are being made . They have the perfect time. If there was any doubt about Ralph they’d do it now.

Again as others have said, depends on his pay off etc I guess.

 

If as mentioned, 2 of the sacked coaches had contracts expiring soon then sacking them 3 and bring others in wouldn't cost as much. And then if after 12 games still no change then it's obviously down to Ralph and bye bye.

Edited 28 May, 2022 by Master Bates

[Nolan]

If the playbook is a thing. It's very much working in the U18s and is arguably working in the B team.

We've created a hand of cards based on a certain style of play. To dump Hassenhüttl now would arguably cause us to fold when we're close to a flush.

Sports Republic and Dragan Solak mean We're in a position now where we could find better fits for the playbook. In the coaching team and in the playing squad.

I'm quite happy with their decision to try the changes their way.

 

 

[Matthew Le God]

16 minutes ago, Nolan said:

If the playbook is a thing. It's very much working in the U18s and is arguably working in the B team.

We've created a hand of cards based on a certain style of play. To dump Hassenhüttl now would arguably cause us to fold when we're close to a flush.

Sports Republic and Dragan Solak mean We're in a position now where we could find better fits for the playbook. In the coaching team and in the playing squad.

I'm quite happy with their decision to try the changes their way.

Hasenhüttl is not the only manager in world football to play a high press in a 4222, 343 or 352 system. Whenever he leaves Saints, the playbook used throughout the club can still continue if another manager with a similar philosophy replaces him.

Edited 28 May, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[egg]

35 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Hasenhüttl is not the only manager in world football to play a high press in a 4222, 343 or 352 system. Whenever he leaves Saints, the playbook used throughout the club can still continue if another manager with a similar philosophy replaces him.

Personally I'm hoping we get coaches or a manager who regularly uses tactics which suits our players. That's usually a good recipe.

[Mr X]

43 minutes ago, egg said:

Personally I'm hoping we get coaches or a manager who regularly uses tactics which suits our players. That's usually a good recipe.

Exactly this you play a style which suits your players and a style you are good at, we've been doing the complete opposite, yes it worked for a while but not long term and especially when other teams learn you have nothing else to bring to the table!

[VectisSaint]

On 27/05/2022 at 22:09, Smirking_Saint said:

But these are effectively senior management, this isn’t middle or lower employees

You would imagine atleast Ralph was there ?

In all fairness I might have over reacted when I first looked at it and read it as if Semmens/Crocker wasn’t there

Nope, these are relatively junior employees certainly not senior management, Crocker is their boss, seems perfectly sensible course of action to me. Bear in mind Watson and Kelvin were not recruited by Ralph, they came with the job (and IIRC pre Crocker), Fleming was a slightly different case in that he was promoted during Ralph's tenure, presumably with Ralp[h's agreement. N

[qwertyell]

3 hours ago, Nolan said:

To dump Hassenhüttl now would arguably cause us to fold when we're close to a flush.

We're close to a flush all right. A busted one.

 

[tajjuk]

8 hours ago, Mr X said:

Exactly this you play a style which suits your players and a style you are good at, we've been doing the complete opposite, yes it worked for a while but not long term and especially when other teams learn you have nothing else to bring to the table!

All the best clubs in the world recruit to a certain style and identity. If they don't its because they dont plan very well and are a bit of a mess structurally (Man Utd for example). 

A response to poor form is not to rip up the style and try something completely different, that would be bonkers, that is how we are are where we are, multiple managers in multiple years, a messy squad full of players bought for different styles. 

[Suhari]

How long until the replacements are named? Guessing we'd want them in asap to prepare properly for the all-important pre-season.

Presumably we have the lined up, signed up and ready to go.

No rumours, links or ITK claims yet though.

[The Kraken]

6 minutes ago, Suhari said:

How long until the replacements are named? Guessing we'd want them in asap to prepare properly for the all-important pre-season.

Presumably we have the lined up, signed up and ready to go.

No rumours, links or ITK claims yet though.

If the replacement coaches are in work at other clubs at the moment (or have been this season) then they’re likely under contract until at minimum end of May, so they may not be announced with us until after that. That’s the optimistic version.

The pessimistic version…….nah, I won’t bother, too many variables. I’m hoping something is in place already or is imminent. If it isn’t, well, it’s not a good look, as much as I hate to be all Alpine Saint about “where are the signings” when we’re not even into June.

Talking of Alpine, whatever happened to him? Hopefully he found some joy in his life, cos he had none on here.

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

If the replacement coaches are in work at other clubs at the moment (or have been this season) then they’re likely under contract until at minimum end of May, so they may not be announced with us until after that. That’s the optimistic version.

English professional football contracts for both players and football staff run until 30th June.

[Smirking_Saint]

3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

English professional football contracts for both players and football staff run until 30th June.

So he is correct then ?

[Matthew Le God]

4 minutes ago, Smirking_Saint said:

So he is correct then ?

I did not say he wasn't. I was merely providing further information on top of his post with the actual date used in football contracts.

[The Kraken]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

I did not say he wasn't. I was merely providing further information on top of his post with the actual date used in football contracts.

While you’re here MLG, I’d appreciate if you could answer a question for me, in line with the previous discussion, if you know.

I think we all know that managers of PL sides sign up to contracts that tie them to the club for a number of years. We know that Ralph has two years left on his extension that he signed with us.

My question is, what usually happens with assistant managers and coaches? Do they get the same sort of term deal? I can’t imagine they just go on the club’s payroll, as that makes them a bit harder to fire/release. But signing them all up to a term deal in line with the manager seems a bit of a risk.

Genuine question. Cheers.

[Matthew Le God]

22 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

While you’re here MLG, I’d appreciate if you could answer a question for me, in line with the previous discussion, if you know.

I think we all know that managers of PL sides sign up to contracts that tie them to the club for a number of years. We know that Ralph has two years left on his extension that he signed with us.

My question is, what usually happens with assistant managers and coaches? Do they get the same sort of term deal? I can’t imagine they just go on the club’s payroll, as that makes them a bit harder to fire/release. But signing them all up to a term deal in line with the manager seems a bit of a risk.

Genuine question. Cheers.

You get two types of backroom staff appointments. Some backroom staff stay at the club regardless of what happens to the manager, they are club appointments and might be put on rolling contracts.

Then you have the ones that come and go with the manager (often his assistant and maybe one or two others like for example Koeman had with his brother and fitness coach) and they have the same length of deal as the manager so a club can more easily get rid of them all at once.

Edited 30 May, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

18 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

You get two types of backroom staff appointments. Some backroom staff stay at the club regardless of what happens to the manager, they are club appointments and might be put on rolling contracts.

Then you have the ones that come and go with the manager (often his assistant and maybe one or two others like for example Koeman had with his brother and fitness coach) and they have the same length of deal as the manager so a club can more easily get rid of them all at once.

Thanks. I assumed it would be something like rolling contracts with some looked on a bit more favourably depending on their closeness to the manager.

I’ll admit I’m still trying the circle the square of the dilemma of the three coaches who have just left, and what the dynamic was with SFC before that. I have lots of questions based on rumours in here and beyond that Ralph wasn’t entirely happy with his coaching set up. If not, who wanted them?  And why didn’t Ralph bring in others if he wasn’t happy with them. Or, did he try but was rebuffed? I’ve heard Ralph’s tactics go down into Academy teams, so I’d be surprised if he’s refused coaching personnel.

Or, was Ralph actually happy with the setup and it’s just some untrue rumours coming out?

Questions, questions.

 

 

Edited 30 May, 2022 by The Kraken

[CanadaSaint]

Many of us have wavered about Ralph because, under him, our team has embodied the old (paraphrased) saying - "When we are good we are very, very good, but when we are bad we are horrid."

He certainly has some admirable qualities but he also has some infuriating weaknesses. The frustration is magnified by the fact that he can seem wilfully blind to the obvious.

I think we would really benefit from having someone within the coaching team who's willing to "speak truth to power". Ralph is a smart guy and, in many ways, a great coach, but he has long struck me as arrogant and self-opinionated. There have been so many times when someone needed to have a word in his ear, but his assistants seemed like a subservient bunch whose first priority was to keep their jobs.

My hope is that the new hires include someone with the gonads to speak that truth to Ralph. Maybe even someone who could take over if things go pear-shaped early in the new season.

[Wade Garrett]

On 28/05/2022 at 19:52, manji said:

Nonsense , decisions are being made . They have the perfect time. If there was any doubt about Ralph they’d do it now.

The fact there doesn’t seem to be any doubt makes me doubt the decision makers themselves.

[Bad Wolf]

On 27/05/2022 at 22:02, Smirking_Saint said:

If this is true then Id say its very poor form, especially from a club that slways ‘sells’ itself as a friendly family club

 

It's business.

[Bad Wolf]

Mike Phelan or Stuart Pearce would be great additions. Tony Adams too if we can get past his previous his Pompey connections

[Matthew Le God]

On 30/05/2022 at 15:47, Bad Wolf said:

Mike Phelan or Stuart Pearce would be great additions. Tony Adams too if we can get past his previous his Pompey connections

Are you being serious? 

 

Edited 31 May, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[Kermitzasaint]

On 26/05/2022 at 15:24, david in sweden said:

A surprise? ......maybe not.   Normally the club sacks the manager first and his coaches go at the same time, but clearly

the Board still has some confidence in Ralph.... and / or .... doesn't have a suitable replacement lined up yet.

Clearly whatever the coaching staff had done since the Koeman's departure  hasn't been enough, and if they stayed

much longer they would just become " part of the furniture ", and stay around until they retire.  

All 3  men are around 40 -ish... and ought to be looking to advance  their coaching careers elsewhere. 

 

With the squad getting younger, one wonders if they were seen as relics of their father's generation, and the instructions  "didn't stick ". 

The signings of Broja, Livramento and Small signalled to many teenage talents that Saints may be the club to advance them in quick time.

I hope we can get a coach with a goal-scoring background, as the likes of Puel and Pellegrino brought their defensive mindset with them

and the outcome was dour ...to say the least.  As a former striker, Ralph knows about goal scoring prowess, and hopefully we can get 

a new man with a good strikers background that might raise the standard somewhat. 

 

History shows not all good players make good coaches, but the presence of 3 goalkeeping coaches did little to improve the defence ....or the attack.

Clearly, it isn't just the playing squad that needs a major overhaul and Ralph probably has one more season....(or until New Year ).....to get results.

 

  

 

From what I see Ralph doesn't know a single thing about scoring prowess

[Kermitzasaint]

On 30/05/2022 at 12:26, CanadaSaint said:

Many of us have wavered about Ralph because, under him, our team has embodied the old (paraphrased) saying - "When we are good we are very, very good, but when we are bad we are horrid."

He certainly has some admirable qualities but he also has some infuriating weaknesses. The frustration is magnified by the fact that he can seem wilfully blind to the obvious.

I think we would really benefit from having someone within the coaching team who's willing to "speak truth to power". Ralph is a smart guy and, in many ways, a great coach, but he has long struck me as arrogant and self-opinionated. There have been so many times when someone needed to have a word in his ear, but his assistants seemed like a subservient bunch whose first priority was to keep their jobs.

My hope is that the new hires include someone with the gonads to speak that truth to Ralph. Maybe even someone who could take over if things go pear-shaped early in the new season.

I see it written that Ralph is a great coach but no one ever provides evidence for that. 

[Bad Wolf]

1 minute ago, Kermitzasaint said:

I see it written that Ralph is a great coach but no one ever provides evidence for that. 

Continually kept a Championship standard team in the PL with decent cup runs throughout. Didn't he also achieve wonders in Germany? I don't follow it.

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Continually kept a Championship standard team in the PL with decent cup runs throughout. Didn't he also achieve wonders in Germany? I don't follow it.

Not really, no

[S-Clarke]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not really, no

I'd massively argue that. He got Ingolstadt from the second division in Germany, to mid-table in the Bundesliga in 3 years. Inglostadt are now in the third division in Germany.

He took over RB Leipzig in their first season in the Bundesliga and they finished 2nd. He had some money for sure, but you have to be a decent coach to do that.

[Bad Wolf]

15 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I'd massively argue that. He got Ingolstadt from the second division in Germany, to mid-table in the Bundesliga in 3 years. Inglostadt are now in the third division in Germany.

He took over RB Leipzig in their first season in the Bundesliga and they finished 2nd. He had some money for sure, but you have to be a decent coach to do that.

Was that their first EVER season in the Bundesliga or had they been up before? Not relevant to this conversation I know, I'm just curious. 

[Matthew Le God]

4 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Was that their first EVER season in the Bundesliga or had they been up before? Not relevant to this conversation I know, I'm just curious. 

It was their first ever top flight season when Hasenhüttl took them to 2nd in the Bundesliga. They were only founded in 2009!

Edited 1 June, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

I'd massively argue that. He got Ingolstadt from the second division in Germany, to mid-table in the Bundesliga in 3 years. Inglostadt are now in the third division in Germany.

He took over RB Leipzig in their first season in the Bundesliga and they finished 2nd. He had some money for sure, but you have to be a decent coach to do that.

Bundeslia's Eddie Howe