Coaching shake up - confirmed

[Master Bates]

16 minutes ago, saint lard said:

 Ralph's former Assistant at Ingolstadt is available this summer, Michael Henke.  Highly experienced coach/assistant. 

Assistant at Bayern on multiple occasions and Dortmund among other german clubs. Former Chief Analyst at Bayern, former Chief Scout at Aston Villa

Henke caretaker manager at Arminia Bielefeld

[eurosaint]

2 hours ago, Ivan Katalinic's 'tache said:

This is the bit which intrigues me. It would appear, as things stand, that Ralph is staying so how much involvement/say has he had in these departures? Did he go to the new board and say "look lads, these guys are duds and aren't helping me progress the team" or was it more that they said to him "Ralph, we're getting rid of these 3 to bring in some 'proper' coaches to assist you" and, possibly even, "so there will be no excuses from you if we stay shit"...

Actually it could have been either (we don't know, do we?) or even something in between, whichever, it  renders most opinions on here totally irrelevant !

Clearly there was a need for change and the process has started, let's see how it pans out without prejudging, based on assumptions ??

[saint lard]

21 minutes ago, Master Bates said:

Henke caretaker manager at Arminia Bielefeld

He was caretaker manager. 
the head coach,as from April 2022 is Marco Kostmann. 

[Badger]

1 hour ago, saint lard said:

 Ralph's former Assistant at Ingolstadt is available this summer, Michael Henke.  Highly experienced coach/assistant. 

Assistant at Bayern on multiple occasions and Dortmund among other german clubs. Former Chief Analyst at Bayern, former Chief Scout at Aston Villa

Michael Henke is a name from the past, linked with the Saints job during the Rupert Lowe years. I think it was before we were relegated, may have been after WGS even.

[Badger]

3 hours ago, Christophenburg said:

Does anyone have thoughts on assistants/coaching staff? Seems much less exciting and people know fewer names, but it's just as interesting!

I've always liked the look of Rene Maric, he's been Marco Rose's assistant since Rose's days in the Salzburg under-18s, got promoted with Rose to the Salzburg first team, and has been with him through to Mönchengladbach and most recently Dortmund. Now Rose is out of work Maric is available.

Robert Klauss would have been a good bet having been one of the managers in the youth set-up at Leipzig when Ralph was there, but I think he's managing the FC Nuremberg first team now.

Achim Beierlorzer seems like a Ralphy-appointment. He was a youth manager at Leipzig before being promoted to interim first-team manager, and stayed on as assistant to Rangnick when he was brought in permanently. When our Ralph joined he managed in the youth set-up, and after a few seasons away as first-team manager elsewhere went back to Leipzig as Jesse Marsch's assistant, and then caretaker when Marsch left until Tedesco was appointed. Having worked with Marsch, Ralph and Rangnick, he is clearly in the 'playbook' mould and, importantly, I think he is out of work at the moment.

I know Ralph personally admires Zsolt Low who was one of his assistants at Leipzig. When Ralph came here Zsolt joined Tuchel at PSG and is now assistant at Chelsea - I think that's unlikely to happen!! Very much a playbook-y appointment though

That's some good research and a few interesting names there, thanks for that. Maric certainly looks an interesting one and quite young as well.

I thought about Zsolt Low earlier, and mentioned in an earlier post whether we'd use the opportunity to bring in an eventual successor to Ralph. A lot depends on his and other options long term career ambitions I suppose. If Low wants to remain an Assistant then he'd probably prefer staying at Chelsea, but if he (or say Rohl, or Maric) want the step up to take over the reins somewhere then Saints might offer a route for them.(Leaving aside Rohl is unlikely to leave the national team until after the WC).

Ankersen took Frank to Brentford as backroom staff so he has a track record of promoting from within.

The downside of this though is that some good No2's in England don't make it when given the top job, Brian Kidd, Don Howe (going back a few years), and to some extent Steve McLaren even (lets not go back to Gray and Wigley though).

Could be an exciting appointment, but FFS get it right Saints.

[SuperSAINT]

 

[EBS1980]

16 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

Why would the owners be on the call?! How many businesses have the owners of a business in a meeting when staff are leaving. HR were there and a senior manager. Talk about trying to make a story from nothing. 

[davefizzy14]

I wish all three of Davis, Watson and Fleming the best of luck in the future, now will be interesting to see who comes in as part of the coaching shake up.

[Katalinic]

19 minutes ago, EBS1980 said:

Why would the owners be on the call?! How many businesses have the owners of a business in a meeting when staff are leaving. HR were there and a senior manager. Talk about trying to make a story from nothing. 

Exactly.I doubt it would have been a shock. 

[The Left Back]

Just had a thought, apologies if it's already been suggested before on this thread.

Perhaps we need to see the coaches being replaced in the context of an early move in our owners' plans for the pyramid.  Perhaps the incoming coaches are here to be groomed in the "Sport Republic way" on a promise of being manager one of the smaller clubs in the pyramid next?  Or perhaps we'll end up bringing in a number 2 from one of our potential pyramid clubs with a view to taking over from Ralph at the end of next season?  

[CB Fry]

45 minutes ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

Hahahaha 

"I demand to speak to the owner!!!"

Yeah alright Kelvin. Just come and drop your bibs and your laptop off at Staplewood in the morning and see you later.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

10 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Hahahaha 

"I demand to speak to the owner!!!"

Yeah alright Kelvin. Just come and drop your bibs and your laptop off at Staplewood in the morning and see you later.

Sacked is a bit dramatic isn't it? I thought two of them were out of contract next month

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, SuperSAINT said:

Why does Sam Wallace think the owners of a company with hundreds of employees need to be present to let someone go? That does not happen in many other industries. 

If the Telegraph sacked Sam Wallace, would he expect that a meeting with the owners of the paper would take place? 🤔 

Edited 26 May, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[hypochondriac]

23 hours ago, Badger said:

Wasn't Ralph rumoured to be against changes and losing part of the coaching team ?

I'm told that Ralph wasn't a big fan of the coaching setup. I also heard he's got the backing of the club but is under a fair bit of of pressure. No guarantees he will survive for long. 

[The Kraken]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm told that Ralph wasn't a big fan of the coaching setup. I also heard he's got the backing of the club but is under a fair bit of of pressure. No guarantees he will survive for long. 

The question I’d ask is, why did he not do anything about it before now?
 

Not allowed to? Wanted to but refused by the club? Other?

[S-Clarke]

2 hours ago, SuperSAINT said:

 

Sounds like something out of nothing, trying to make a story.

[S-Clarke]

4 hours ago, saint lard said:

 Ralph's former Assistant at Ingolstadt is available this summer, Michael Henke.  Highly experienced coach/assistant. 

Assistant at Bayern on multiple occasions and Dortmund among other german clubs. Former Chief Analyst at Bayern, former Chief Scout at Aston Villa

Interesting shout.

I think the owners will look for coaches who could potentially evolve into a succession plan for Ralph. That's what they did at Brentford, they gave Dean Smith a new assistant in Thomas Frank with the expectation that he'd evolve into the first team manager if/when Dean Smith left and that's exactly what happened.

I guess they looked at Fleming, Watson and Davis and saw no succession plan there what so ever, so they're putting their markers down. This could be a Rasmus influenced change.

[Matthew Le God]

4 hours ago, saint lard said:

 Ralph's former Assistant at Ingolstadt is available this summer, Michael Henke.  Highly experienced coach/assistant. 

Assistant at Bayern on multiple occasions and Dortmund among other german clubs. Former Chief Analyst at Bayern, former Chief Scout at Aston Villa

 

5 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Interesting shout.

I think the owners will look for coaches who could potentially evolve into a succession plan for Ralph. That's what they did at Brentford, they gave Dean Smith a new assistant in Thomas Frank with the expectation that he'd evolve into the first team manager if/when Dean Smith left and that's exactly what happened.

I guess they looked at Fleming, Watson and Davis and saw no succession plan there what so ever, so they're putting their markers down. This could be a Rasmus influenced change.

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

They didn’t say it was.

[S-Clarke]

20 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

I'm not saying he's the succession plan, more the approach I think we'll take with coaches.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, The Kraken said:

The question I’d ask is, why did he not do anything about it before now?
 

Not allowed to? Wanted to but refused by the club? Other?

I don't know the answer to that. I was told that Ralph hasn't been a big fan for quite a while. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I don't know the answer to that. I was told that Ralph hasn't been a big fan for quite a while. 

Finances maybe? Any free money ploughed into the first team squad player wise?

[nta786]

22 minutes ago, Turkish said:

They didn’t say it was.

You clearly don't understand definitions of burden of proof, evidence or opinion.

[SuperSAINT]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

Finances maybe? Any free money ploughed into the first team squad player wise?

This was the first thing I thought — did we just not have the cash to do it before? 

[Saint_clark]

7 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

Be nice to have a coach with a wealth of experience behind him to be honest.

[Dman]

10 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why does Sam Wallace think the owners of a company with hundreds of employees need to be present to let someone go? That does not happen in many other industries. 

If the Telegraph sacked Sam Wallace, would he expect that a meeting with the owners of the paper would take place? 🤔 

Jesus Christ, you love saying things like this don’t you. 
 

It’s really quite simple, Football isn’t like many other industries. 
 

That being said, the story is a mountain out of a mole hill, the owners aren’t in charge of running the club day to day, so won’t get involved in such discussion. 

[Dman]

9 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Interesting shout.

I think the owners will look for coaches who could potentially evolve into a succession plan for Ralph. That's what they did at Brentford, they gave Dean Smith a new assistant in Thomas Frank with the expectation that he'd evolve into the first team manager if/when Dean Smith left and that's exactly what happened.

I guess they looked at Fleming, Watson and Davis and saw no succession plan there what so ever, so they're putting their markers down. This could be a Rasmus influenced change.

If he wants to go down the route of coaching / management, bring back Jose Fonte in a player / coaching role. 

Still has a little bit to offer on the pitch (better than what we have) and I’d love to see him in our dugout one day.
 

Things started to go pear shaped when we let him walk, he should have been the one who took Kelvins role. A Natural leader. 

[Dusic]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

If he wants to go down the route of coaching / management, bring back Jose Fonte in a player / coaching role. 

Still has a little bit to offer on the pitch (better than what we have) and I’d love to see him in our dugout one day.
 

Things started to go pear shaped when we let him walk, he should have been the one who took Kelvins role. A Natural leader. 

So he should have become an U18 assistant coach instead of winning Ligue Un with Lille?

Somewhat bizarre.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Dusic said:

So he should have become an U18 assistant coach instead of winning Ligue Un with Lille?

Somewhat bizarre.

Although I take your point, you misunderstand Kelvin's original role. He was a kind of link man between the dressing room and hierarchy, almost a "shop steward" type figure. Then they let him loose with cones and bibs, and the rest is history. 

[Saint Fan CaM]

11 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

Woah there…you have to be called out on THAT one! Are you saying 65 is too old to manage a football team?!  Ageism is not a valid or indeed legal way to make hiring decisions. This chap could take the reigns very successfully for another 10 years which would far exceed many EPL managerial tenures.

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, Saint Fan CaM said:

Woah there…you have to be called out on THAT one! Are you saying 65 is too old to manage a football team?!  Ageism is not a valid or indeed legal way to make hiring decisions. This chap could take the reigns very successfully for another 10 years which would far exceed many EPL managerial tenures.

Roy Hodgson is 9 years older and has been England manager plus in charge of two premier league clubs at older age. Ageism appears to be alive and well in the MLG household 

[Patrick Bateman]

12 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

I hope you're never in the position to hire someone at work else you'll find yourself in court more quickly than you can say "valid age discrimination claim".

There is nothing to stop this man working another 5, 10 or even 15 years.  There are not many football teams, let alone top flight football teams with a manager or assistant with a tenure longer than 5 years.

[The Left Back]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

If he wants to go down the route of coaching / management, bring back Jose Fonte in a player / coaching role. 

Still has a little bit to offer on the pitch (better than what we have) and I’d love to see him in our dugout one day.
 

Things started to go pear shaped when we let him walk, he should have been the one who took Kelvins role. A Natural leader. 

You've got me excited with this idea.  I'd love to see Jose cutting his coaching teeth with us, and giving us a year on the pitch as well.  

[Lighthouse]

10 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

You've got me excited with this idea.  I'd love to see Jose cutting his coaching teeth with us, and giving us a year on the pitch as well.  

He can cut his teeth elsewhere and come back if and when he excels in the role. We aren’t a coaching school, we need people who can come in a know what they’re doing immediately.

As for a year on the pitch; no.

[DT]

3 hours ago, Dman said:

If he wants to go down the route of coaching / management, bring back Jose Fonte in a player / coaching role. 

Still has a little bit to offer on the pitch (better than what we have) and I’d love to see him in our dugout one day.
 

Things started to go pear shaped when we let him walk, he should have been the one who took Kelvins role. A Natural leader. 

Not a bad idea, that. Would love to see him back. Not sure we could attract him back but would be shrewd. Has the defensive nous we need, and could probably still actually cut it on the field

[Bad Wolf]

3 hours ago, Dman said:

Jesus Christ, you love saying things like this don’t you. 
 

It’s really quite simple, Football isn’t like many other industries. 
 

That being said, the story is a mountain out of a mole hill, the owners aren’t in charge of running the club day to day, so won’t get involved in such discussion. 

But it is. Football clubs are companies, footballers and coaches are employees, fans are customers. It's exactly like any other industry except with football there's a lot of emotional bias and recency bias.

[The Cat]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Although I take your point, you misunderstand Kelvin's original role. He was a kind of link man between the dressing room and hierarchy, almost a "shop steward" type figure. Then they let him loose with cones and bibs, and the rest is history. 

Wasn't he originally carrying out some sort of player liaison role where he was linking with the players on loan and their clubs to monitor their progress?

[captainchris]

14 hours ago, The Kraken said:

The question I’d ask is, why did he not do anything about it before now?
 

Not allowed to? Wanted to but refused by the club? Other?

Or actually it was Ralph’s set up ?

In which case he is culpable. It is hard to understand how Ralph would have had no bearing at all on the personnel and methods of the coaching set up for the first team.

If that was the case then Siemens should go; if not then Ralph has to take responsibility and he should go too. Sacking three coaches and letting the people they served under off is just a little bit odd. Scapegoats or what………. 
It’s like a naval frigate goes on the rocks and they make an able seaman walk the plank for it….

 

 

Edited 27 May, 2022 by captainchris

[Roo1976]

15 hours ago, davefizzy14 said:

I wish all three of Davis, Watson and Fleming the best of luck in the future, now will be interesting to see who comes in as part of the coaching shake up.

Be intresting to know whos going to be in charge of the ipad.................

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

Just a thought on this - I wonder if the coaching staff, including the players and Ralph knew about this, first finding out around about the Villa game. Just conjecture but people talk etc and this may explain the abject form from then on - ie uncertainty amongst players and coaches.

[SuperSAINT]

1 hour ago, The Cat said:

Wasn't he originally carrying out some sort of player liaison role where he was linking with the players on loan and their clubs to monitor their progress?

Believe so.  Danny Butterfield is doing the loan job now.

[Christophenburg]

19 hours ago, saint lard said:

 Ralph's former Assistant at Ingolstadt is available this summer, Michael Henke.  Highly experienced coach/assistant. 

Assistant at Bayern on multiple occasions and Dortmund among other german clubs. Former Chief Analyst at Bayern, former Chief Scout at Aston Villa

I think highly experienced is a stretch. He's been in various different roles at Ingolstadt for the best part of a decade and has just been part of the management/coaching team that couldn't save Bielefeld from relegation from the Bundeslegia. Most impressive roles have been as part of Ottmar Hitzfeld's (arguably one of German's most successful managers) management team at Dortmund and then Bayern Munich. It's interesting to note that he left Bayern to try his hand at first team management with Kaiserslautern and then Saarbrücken before returning to Hitzfeld's team at Bayern. I'm not saying he'd be a bad choice, I just think that his history is a little less impressive then it initially appears

 

18 hours ago, saint lard said:

He was caretaker manager. 
the head coach,as from April 2022 is Marco Kostmann. 

I don't think that's true. Kostmann was (ironically for Saints I suppose) Goalkeeping coach until April when Frank Kramer was sacked and Kostmann was appointed Caretaker Manager. Henke was then brought in to be Kostmann's assistant. He'd been, until the end of the 20/21 season, Ingolstadt's Sporting Director

[Appy]

I hate seeing the get “insert former player or coaches’ name here” in to the backroom staff. 
 

Just get people in who know what they’re doing and will challenge Ralph when he makes more baffling decisions. 

[Toussaint]

15 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Michael Henke is 65 years old, so it isn't really much of a long term succession plan. More likely to be retiring soon rather than an up and coming talent being groomed to take over.

Don't like them too old but your OK with a bit of grooming, hmmmmmm

Edited 27 May, 2022 by Toussaint

[VectisSaint]

21 hours ago, Trader said:

I think they should appoint an ex-goalkeeper to the first team coaching role.

 

Well, if it was Nigel Adkins that would be fine by me.

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

1 hour ago, Roo1976 said:

Be intresting to know whos going to be in charge of the ipad.................

I thought that's why we had so many goalies in the coaching team. Less likely to drop it...

[CB Fry]

12 minutes ago, Appy said:

I hate seeing the get “insert former player or coaches’ name here” in to the backroom staff. 
 

Just get people in who know what they’re doing and will challenge Ralph when he makes more baffling decisions. 

100%.

Absolutely tedious obsession with people that "know the club" as if that in any way will make them a better appointment.

Strachan, Adkins, Koeman, Pochettino - none of them had any affinity / history with the club at all.

Just get some coaches that will improve the players and Ralph.

[Badger]

16 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm told that Ralph wasn't a big fan of the coaching setup. I also heard he's got the backing of the club but is under a fair bit of of pressure. No guarantees he will survive for long. 

Set up, or personnel involved ?

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Badger said:

Set up, or personnel involved ?

The personnel. 

[Suhari]

16 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm told that Ralph wasn't a big fan of the coaching setup. I also heard he's got the backing of the club but is under a fair bit of of pressure. No guarantees he will survive for long. 

Not surprised of the 'not a fan of the coaching set up'. Why would you be?

On being under pressure: good! I remain (just) pro-Ralph, given the constraints he's worked under and what he's achieved. With coaching and playing staff improved (which I assume they will be) then he has no excuses - so show us what you can do.

It also suggests some ambition and intent from the new owners. At last: Saints may be looking upwards. Remember when we last had that?