Burnley 2-0 Saints - Match Thread

[qwertyell]

8 minutes ago, DT said:

Sean Dyche is still available

By the looks of things he was holding Burnley back all this time...

[DT]

1 minute ago, qwertyell said:

By the looks of things he was holding Burnley back all this time...

Utter nonsense

[Sheaf Saint]

7 hours ago, The Kraken said:

I think there’s a decent argument that Cork was interfering with play while being offside. VAR disagreed but in my mind it’s offside. Not saying FF was great, but it’s a weakness of the laws IMO.

Every time they got a corner, Cork was interfering with play by backing into Forster, but the refs let him get away with it every time.

For their second goal, FF might have been able to position himself better if he didn't have to literally push Cork out of the way first.

Add to that the obvious foul on JWP while jumping for the header, it was a shitshow all round from the officials.

But let's not kid ourselves we would have got anything out of the game even if that goal was disallowed. We were shit all over the pitch and deserved to lose at least 2-0.

[adrian lord]

The new owners high and purple patch on the pitch seem aeons ago.

It will be interesting to see what the new bosses do over the summer in the transfer market. They surely can’t be satisfied with the recent form and ManUesque levels of indifference and application. 

One of Ralph’s Achilles heels seems to be sustaining motivation in the side. The Austrian Klopp he ain’t. 

[Saint_Tony]

the table is not looking great again. 4-5 teams that 6 weeks ago we looked to have a great chance of finishing above, are all now above us.

 

I've tried to support Ralph but last night was a step too far. Being able to set up a team to get results against Man City, Utd, Spurs and Arsenal only to fu ck it up against Burnley, Watford and Norwich is beyond frustrating. Looking like we will finish 15th at best so no improvement on last season. Theres been some flashes of brilliance, but the inconsistency is just unacceptable.

[JRM]

34 minutes ago, adrian lord said:

The new owners high and purple patch on the pitch seem aeons ago.

It will be interesting to see what the new bosses do over the summer in the transfer market. They surely can’t be satisfied with the recent form and ManUesque levels of indifference and application. 

One of Ralph’s Achilles heels seems to be sustaining motivation in the side. The Austrian Klopp he ain’t. 

It's a fair comparison when you look at United going through the motions losing at Anfield we are the same just seeing out the season, something doesn't seem right within the club. 

[rooney]

Burnley were up for it from the beginning,Fraser excepted, our team were just not motivated enough for the opportunity to go 9th last night .Its all gone pear shaped since the Villa game and our lack of quality shone through last night once again.

[Charlie Wayman]

10 hours ago, Dman said:

Ding, ding, ding weekly Broja obsession.

Criticism is fully deserved if you are open minded.

[Charlie Wayman]

1 hour ago, adrian lord said:

The new owners high and purple patch on the pitch seem aeons ago.

It will be interesting to see what the new bosses do over the summer in the transfer market. They surely can’t be satisfied with the recent form and ManUesque levels of indifference and application. 

One of Ralph’s Achilles heels seems to be sustaining motivation in the side. The Austrian Klopp he ain’t. 

Fair comment. Don't rule out the possibility that Ralph could get the boot at the end of the season. He is another who seems to have become too complacent about their position. The buck stops with him after all.

 

Replying to John B (below), we have no choice but to buy better players if we want to stay in the PL and the money will have to be found. We have to face reality, the bigger clubs are setting the financial and quality pace and each year the bars for both are getting higher.

Not all clubs are being left behind and are finding ways of hanging in there, e.g. West Ham, Leicester, Wolves and arguably they are not bigger clubs than us. We have to come up with the money somehow or we will go down sooner rather than later.

Some fans argue "so be it", it is an unequal struggle and we are better off out of it, that they will be happier if we are in the Championship. Rest assured they will not be when those bad times come around. The PL has global reach everything else here is insignificant. 

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Charlie Wayman

[John B]

12 minutes ago, rooney said:

Burnley were up for it from the beginning,Fraser excepted, our team were just not motivated enough for the opportunity to go 9th last night .Its all gone pear shaped since the Villa game and our lack of quality shone through last night once again.

The trouble is I do not see us attracting any quality players without spending big and one season we will probably go down

Ralph gets all the blame but we do not have any players of the calibre of Mane Tadic Lallana  VVD Pelle Lambert etc 

[Whitey Grandad]

9 hours ago, Instant Classic said:

I see Forster has escaped criticism YET AGAIN.

Made two good saves and you can't take anything away from that.  The others were saves you'd expect him to make, zero control over his penalty area, the second goal was down to his shocking positioning and his kicking was some of the worst I've ever seen from a keeper.

If McCarthy had had that same game, he'd get a 6/10 at absolute best but no, yeah, Forster is amazing, all hail Forster. Give him a 20 year contract or something.

You are miles out. There was nothing he could have done about their second goal. He was the only one to come out of that game with any credit. 
 

It’s not the goalkeeper’s job to control his penalty area. That is supposed to be done by the defence.

[Whitey Grandad]

9 hours ago, Yozzman said:

People talk about JWP being stronger but FF should have made a much better attempt to punch a cross 6 yards out. Once it has been headed he had no chance. 

It was more than six yards. That was never a goalkeeper’s ball.

[Whitey Grandad]

9 hours ago, The Kraken said:

I think there’s a decent argument that Cork was interfering with play while being offside. VAR disagreed but in my mind it’s offside. Not saying FF was great, but it’s a weakness of the laws IMO.

If FF had not shoved Cork out of the way then that goal would definitely have been ruled out for offside. Perhaps he should just do nothing and let himself be obstructed?

[Nordic Saint]

9 hours ago, Instant Classic said:

I see Forster has escaped criticism YET AGAIN.

 

Probably because he was our best player AGAIN.

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Nordic Saint

[macca155]

37 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Fair comment. Don't rule out the possibility that Ralph could get the boot at the end of the season. He is another who seems to have become too complacent about their position. The buck stops with him after all.

 

Replying to John B (below), we have no choice but to buy better players if we want to stay in the PL and the money will have to be found. We have to face reality, the bigger clubs are setting the financial and quality pace and each year the bars for both are getting higher.

Not all clubs are being left behind and are finding ways of hanging in there, e.g. West Ham, Leicester, Wolves and arguably they are not bigger clubs than us. We have to come up with the money somehow or we will go down sooner rather than later.

Some fans argue "so be it", it is an unequal struggle and we are better off out of it, that they will be happier if we are in the Championship. Rest assured they will not be when those bad times come around. The PL has global reach everything else here is insignificant. 

You are right the bar is getting higher every year. Newcastle have now made it a top 7 to contend with. That's 14 games where even a point will be hard fought for.

West Ham have a 50,000+ paying customers. They are bigger and I suspect will become the 8th. Leicester have owners prepared to spend much more than ours. You can add Wolves and Villa to that list as well. If Everton survive I can't see them being garbage next year either.

That means the league of teams that are genuine peers of Saints, is becoming smaller every year. Probably 8 rising to 10 with a couple from the list above having an off season.

That doesn't mean Saints can't survive, or even flourish but more investment is definitely required and perhaps a different approach.

[John Boy Saint]

One bit of commentary last night that hit the nail on the head.

”Southampton are like Forrest Gumps box of Chocolates”

[The Cat]

2 hours ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Every time they got a corner, Cork was interfering with play by backing into Forster, but the refs let him get away with it every time.

For their second goal, FF might have been able to position himself better if he didn't have to literally push Cork out of the way first.

Add to that the obvious foul on JWP while jumping for the header, it was a shitshow all round from the officials.

But let's not kid ourselves we would have got anything out of the game even if that goal was disallowed. We were shit all over the pitch and deserved to lose at least 2-0.

In those situations I think it's the keeper's responsibility to call a defender to stand in-between him and the attacking player. 

This goes down to the personal preference of the keeper. Some do, some don't. But ultimately it's their call. Maybe Forster didn't want someone there and felt he could cope.

[OldNick]

Broja if not likely to stay why are we playing at the expense of AA and Che to try and see if they can get an understanding. The only bonus is clubs who were looking at him may move elsewhere.

We are far too slow in our build ups, and whilst JWP is a decent player he is not incisive enough with passing forward. Its ok being tidy but when does he thread a through ball for our strikers to run on to? His commitment is fantastic and appreciated but we just allow the opposition to reset.It may be Ralph who has made us so negative, he is retiring in 2024 apparently so perhaps we need to bite the bullet and get freshened up. I have become a tad tired of the humiliations he oversees. The 4-0 at Villa, Chelsea ,and frankly we should have lost by at least 3 v Arsenal , to add to that last nights dismal display and then of course Norwich away. I have seen the ups and downs many times, but I do not see an improvement in the club for a while. The youngsters are not coming through unless we buy them, and we are playing stale football 

[nta786]

• Burnley have won their last two home Premier League games, as many as they had won in their previous 24 at Turf Moor (D11, L11).
• Southampton have lost consecutive Premier League games against sides in the relegation zone for the first time since November 2003.
• Burnley have scored five goals in their past two home league games, as many as they'd managed in their previous nine at Turf Moor in the competition.
• Southampton have conceded more headed goals than any other Premier League side this term (13), and they've never conceded more such goals in a season in the competition.

[DT]

Brighton have struggled to score goals at home. You know how this ends.

[VectisSaint]

8 hours ago, skintsaint said:

One of the most predictable results of the season. Next.

Result yes, performance no. That was a shockingly bad performance. The only players that came out of that with any credit were Perraud, KWP and Forster (though Valery got better as the game progressed after a very shaky start). Apart from some very short spells we seemed unable to pass to a teammate and our back three reverted to passing it across the back because no one was making any space or making runs for them to get the ball to. Romeu apart from the 2 sitters he missed was way off his game as was JWP, we desparately need some alternatives in the DM area, on their day the pair are superb but we need options for when they are off form/injured/suspended. Stuart Armstrong had a complete mare, which is highly unusual, though he did at least demonstrate that we have players who can take corners as well if not better than JWP. 

I'm thinking that we can conclude that Stephens is on his way out after not even making the bench last night, it was a game that he was more suited to than others (for getting stuck in and shithousery), yet Valery got the nod.

[S-Clarke]

12 hours ago, Instant Classic said:

I see Forster has escaped criticism YET AGAIN.

Made two good saves and you can't take anything away from that.  The others were saves you'd expect him to make, zero control over his penalty area, the second goal was down to his shocking positioning and his kicking was some of the worst I've ever seen from a keeper.

If McCarthy had had that same game, he'd get a 6/10 at absolute best but no, yeah, Forster is amazing, all hail Forster. Give him a 20 year contract or something.

I think it's a bit harsh to single him out particularly, but the game did highlight some of his weaknesses and why the temptation to offer him a new contract needs to be avoided.

[Kenilworthy]

We have successfully completed our own treble of losing at least once to each of the three relegated teams. I wonder if any team is worse than Saints at losing to relegated teams? - we even managed to lose to Norwich under Koeman.

[nta786]

1 hour ago, Kenilworthy said:

We have successfully completed our own treble of losing at least once to each of the three relegated teams. I wonder if any team is worse than Saints at losing to relegated teams? - we even managed to lose to Norwich under Koeman.

We do have some shockers within us, losing 3-0 to WBA last season was disgusting, I don't forget the 2 Cardiff defeats in 2018/19 either, or the one in 2013/14 under Pochettino. 

2021/22 - TBC as don't know who has been relegated yet 

2020/21 - Fulham - won at home, drew away, WBA - won at home, lost away, Sheffield United - won both home and away (13/18)

2019/20 - Bournemouth - lost at home, won away, Watford - won at home and away, Norwich - won at home and away (15/18)

2018/19 - Cardiff - lost both home and away, Fulham - won at home, lost away (the 3-2 game), Huddersfield - drew at home, won away (7/18)

2017/18 - Swansea - drew at home, won away (Gabbiadini!), Stoke - drew at home, lost away, WBA - won at home and away (11/18)

2016/17 - Hull - drew at home, lost away, Boro - won home and away, Sunderland - drew at home, won away (4-0!) (11/18)

[DT]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

I think it's a bit harsh to single him out particularly, but the game did highlight some of his weaknesses and why the temptation to offer him a new contract needs to be avoided.

Not even a week after he almost single-handedly won us the points against Arsenal

[Kenilworthy]

3 minutes ago, nta786 said:

We do have some shockers within us, losing 3-0 to WBA last season was disgusting, I don't forget the 2 Cardiff defeats in 2018/19 either, or the one in 2013/14 under Pochettino. 

2021/22 - TBC as don't know who has been relegated yet 

2020/21 - Fulham - won at home, drew away, WBA - won at home, lost away, Sheffield United - won both home and away (13/18)

2019/20 - Bournemouth - lost at home, won away, Watford - won at home and away, Norwich - won at home and away (15/18)

2018/19 - Cardiff - lost both home and away, Fulham - won at home, lost away (the 3-2 game), Huddersfield - drew at home, won away (7/18)

2017/18 - Swansea - drew at home, won away (Gabbiadini!), Stoke - drew at home, lost away, WBA - won at home and away (11/18)

2016/17 - Hull - drew at home, lost away, Boro - won home and away, Sunderland - drew at home, won away (4-0!) (11/18)

As we have lost to Everton as well we can be sure that we have lost to the three relegated sides. Even when we were runners up in 83-84 we lost at home to Notts County

[Nordic Saint]

2 hours ago, nta786 said:

•  
• Southampton have conceded more headed goals than any other Premier League side this term (13), and they've never conceded more such goals in a season in the competition.

The lack of good headers in defence, midfield and attack is a glaring weakness in our squad and it has cost us many points this season. Brian Clough used to say that he would never recruit a player if he wasn't a good header. It's ridiculous that we have excellent wing-backs who win us so many corners and a player who's reckoned to be one of the best set-piece specialists in the league to take them yet nobody who can get on the end of them and head the ball in the net. 

I've seen some people try to ridicule Newcastle's January recruitment but they bought good headers and you can see how much that has helped improve their results. 

I wondered how many goalscoring opportunities we had missed this season and how many goals we'd conceded because of this deficiency. Well nta786, you've partly answered that question: more than any other team in the league.

How we could do with a central defender like Dan Burn instead of any of our current centre backs. 

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Nordic Saint

[East Kent Saint]

Romeo with 2 free headers from JWP corners but missed the goal ! A centre-back who can defend a cross would help as well , bring back Ron Davis and ……

[Nordic Saint]

9 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Romeo with 2 free headers from JWP corners but missed the goal ! A centre-back who can defend a cross would help as well , bring back Ron Davies and ……

Even at just 5' 10", Danny Ings was a better header both in attack and defence than any of our current players. We've had many central defenders who were good headers: van Dijk and Fonte, for example. Of course, to be a good header you need bravery and perhaps that's a quality some of our current players lack.

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Nordic Saint

[Matthew Le God]

20 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Romeo with 2 free headers from JWP corners but missed the goal ! A centre-back who can defend a cross would help as well , bring back Ron Davis and ……

[Francis1947]

Being a Saints fan for over 60 years now, I along with many others have come to expect this sort of result and performance from a Southampton team.

However, I think after a morning to reflect ,what galls and irritates me most of all was the make up of the side last night against Burnley.

We all understood what Ralph was doing against Arsenal with 3 centre backs and abandoning the high press. The previous 6 or so results demanded that against a top 6 side.....and it worked. Somewhat fortuitiosly but it worked

But for him to play the same side against Burnley with just Broja up front was quite simply inexplicable. It was an utter shambles and I switched off with 10 minutes to go because my Missus of 50 years came in to see what I was shouting and moaning about. Don't think I have ever cut short a Saints match before  !

To go 2-0 down and not to change the side quickly enough was just bizarre. Why not put Tella on along with Adams ! He could have brought a bit of pace to the side. There was nothing to lose surely. And then to replace our best player, KWP with another right back !....what was the thinking and strategy there ? 

I think the most alarming statistic thats someeone pointed out here....and one I wasn't aware of....is that this season, we have lost to the bottom 4 sides. The only side in the Premiership to do so. Isn't that interesting and significant.

Up to now, I have been a supporter of Ralphs although sometimes reluctantly.

But last night was a new low for me. I think he is a sgood man and a decent enough Manager with limited resources. But you now have to question severely, his tactics, his team selections, his constant " tinkering " with the side, his seemingly inability to adapt and change when things are clearly going wrong. 

Where to go from here ? I have no idea. I think I'm fed up and will be quite glad now for the season to end.

Just my 2 pennies worth. 

 

[Wurzel]

9 minutes ago, Francis1947 said:

Being a Saints fan for over 60 years now, I along with many others have come to expect this sort of result and performance from a Southampton team.

......

I think the most alarming statistic thats someeone pointed out here....and one I wasn't aware of....is that this season, we have lost to the bottom 4 sides. The only side in the Premiership to do so. Isn't that interesting and significant.

....

 

I thought that happens every year but the stats from @nta786 posted above prove it's not as often as I thought. But we've certainly been weak against lower teams for a long time now (under many different managers and playing squads)

I don't think it's for lack of effort or complacency on our part. I put it down to us being a near permanent mid-table-mediocrity type team. The top teams - the regular champion league contenders - don't need to change their game for the likes of us, they are good enough to  play their own game against anyone outside their little closed shop. We know what to expect from them and are able to raise and/or adjust our game to compete, usually (but not always) giving them a good run for their money if not coming away with the odd unexpected point or 3. The relegation battling teams see us as a "free-hit" team that they have a chance against and raise and/or adjust their game accordingly, and if they are really up for it are usually able to bully us (if not out play us) into defeat. And in most of those games - including yesterday - we start well but at some point the opposition seem to suddenly realise "we could have these" and we're gone. Seems like something none of our managers have been unable to combat or counter.

Had those 4 defeats been the victories they should have been on paper we'd be just a point behind WestHam right now, and look how well the media tell us they are performing.

[trousers]

38 minutes ago, Francis1947 said:

Being a Saints fan for over 60 years now, I along with many others have come to expect this sort of result and performance from a Southampton team.

However, I think after a morning to reflect ,what galls and irritates me most of all was the make up of the side last night against Burnley.

We all understood what Ralph was doing against Arsenal with 3 centre backs and abandoning the high press. The previous 6 or so results demanded that against a top 6 side.....and it worked. Somewhat fortuitiosly but it worked

But for him to play the same side against Burnley with just Broja up front was quite simply inexplicable. It was an utter shambles and I switched off with 10 minutes to go because my Missus of 50 years came in to see what I was shouting and moaning about. Don't think I have ever cut short a Saints match before  !

To go 2-0 down and not to change the side quickly enough was just bizarre. Why not put Tella on along with Adams ! He could have brought a bit of pace to the side. There was nothing to lose surely. And then to replace our best player, KWP with another right back !....what was the thinking and strategy there ? 

I think the most alarming statistic thats someeone pointed out here....and one I wasn't aware of....is that this season, we have lost to the bottom 4 sides. The only side in the Premiership to do so. Isn't that interesting and significant.

Up to now, I have been a supporter of Ralphs although sometimes reluctantly.

But last night was a new low for me. I think he is a sgood man and a decent enough Manager with limited resources. But you now have to question severely, his tactics, his team selections, his constant " tinkering " with the side, his seemingly inability to adapt and change when things are clearly going wrong. 

Where to go from here ? I have no idea. I think I'm fed up and will be quite glad now for the season to end.

Just my 2 pennies worth. 

 

Concur with much of what you say there. The only bit I would possibly question is "his seemingly inability to adapt and change when things are clearly going wrong". I think we witnessed between December and March that he is able to adapt and change; indeed quite a few of the Ralph 'anti-cult' praised him for "finally doing what we've been saying for ages that he should do". The baffling thing for me is why Ralph can get things right for a given period of time and then, seemingly, get things wrong for a similar period of time. 

Edited 22 April, 2022 by trousers

[Toussaint]

48 minutes ago, trousers said:

Concur with much of what you say there. The only bit I would possibly question is "his seemingly inability to adapt and change when things are clearly going wrong". I think we witnessed between December and March that he is able to adapt and change; indeed quite a few of the Ralph 'anti-cult' praised him for "finally doing what we've been saying for ages that he should do". The baffling thing for me is why Ralph can get things right for a given period of time and then, seemingly, get things wrong for a similar period of time. 

It's now  become obvious, there are two Ralphs, it didn't occur to me until I re watched the  Simon Pegg imovie, The Worlds End,  this week,  there is Real Ralph and Robot Ralph, sometimes also known Wreckit Ralph. Simon tried to warn us, but no we, just laughed! 

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Toussaint

[East Kent Saint]

4 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Er yes , phonetic spelling gaff ……

[Sarisbury Saint]

4 hours ago, trousers said:

Concur with much of what you say there. The only bit I would possibly question is "his seemingly inability to adapt and change when things are clearly going wrong". I think we witnessed between December and March that he is able to adapt and change; indeed quite a few of the Ralph 'anti-cult' praised him for "finally doing what we've been saying for ages that he should do". The baffling thing for me is why Ralph can get things right for a given period of time and then, seemingly, get things wrong for a similar period of time. 

Would you twist or stick ?

[UpweySaint]

23 hours ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

I 100% agree. I said it before the game that the lineup was wrong in my eyes and it proved apparent immediately.

I think it's harsh to say he's gone stale when we're as comfortable as we've been in years. I know we didn't win but we'd have literally gone up to 9th.

Possibly a little harsh on my part and maybe a little snap in the cold light of day. I do agree we have largely punched above our weight under Ralph but some of his decisions recently have left me scratching my head - Valery getting games (whatever the question is he's not the answer), Adams being dropped, Redmond being bombed ... Always willing to be proved to know f*ck all about football though, the West Ham cup game was a classic for that, hoping we can avoid a total collapse for the rest of the season and we go into the summer with some of the positivity we've had earlier in the season.

[harvey]

Tbh I think Ralph has 'blagged' it and and got lucky. He's found a club that will put up with his lacklustre performances and inept management.

[Yozzman]

14 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It was more than six yards. That was never a goalkeeper’s ball.

I suggest you watch it again. JWP was stood on the 6 yard line and Collins used him as a platform.

[Whitey Grandad]

20 minutes ago, Yozzman said:

I suggest you watch it again. JWP was stood on the 6 yard line and Collins used him as a platform.

Just for you I undeleted my recording and watched it again, and very painful it was too. Yep, just outside the six yard line and the clearest foul you could ever see but still nothing that Forster could do about it. The presence of Cork was crucial.

[Tank]

On 21/04/2022 at 20:27, Dman said:

Stopping the game for a nutrition break 4 minutes before half time…. Incredible the lack of sense these days 😂

Apparently they had fig cakes and spent the rest of the game wanting the pot ...

[John Boy Saint]

16 hours ago, East Kent Saint said:

Er yes , phonetic spelling gaff ……

Not 

applemakeyoulookatitautocorrect ?

[Micky]

18 hours ago, harvey said:

Tbh I think Ralph has 'blagged' it and and got lucky. He's found a club that will put up with his lacklustre performances and inept management.

He is achieving the boards potential aims of the club, remaining in the Premiere League.