Russia

[Whitey Grandad]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

And yet people say Ukraine are winning. It won't feel that way to the residents of multiple Ukrainian cities. A large price for a small hole in a bridge and a bruised Russian ego. 

So you think that Ukraine is responsible for damaging the bridge?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So you think that Ukraine is responsible for damaging the bridge?

Don't you?

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, egg said:

And yet people say Ukraine are winning. It won't feel that way to the residents of multiple Ukrainian cities. A large price for a small hole in a bridge and a bruised Russian ego. 

1) When the V-1 and V-2 rockets were hitting London during WW2, who was winning the war ?

2) Does Ukraine have an alternative to fighting with every means at it's disposal ?

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

So you think that Ukraine is responsible for damaging the bridge?

 

8 minutes ago, egg said:

Don't you?

I don't expect the Russians to make the truth about the attack public. Either they did it themselves, or the reality is far too embarrassing.

Edited 10 October, 2022 by badgerx16
Fast fingers vs popup keyboard

[egg]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

1) When the V-1 and V-2 rockets were hitting London during WW2, who was winning the war ?

2) Does Ukraine have an alternative to fighting with every means at it's disposal ?

1) irrelevant. It's 2022

2) what did they serve to gain from a little hole that'll get fixed in no time? Is the price worth it? Pick your fights. 

 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

 

I don't expect the Russians to make the truth about the attack public. Either they did it themselves, or the reality is far too embarrassing.

If you and Whitey are pointing to sabotage, I don't buy it. Russia didn't need an excuse to do what's happened overnight and whatever will follow. Surovikin wants to flex his muscles. 

[whelk]

17 minutes ago, egg said:

And yet people say Ukraine are winning. It won't feel that way to the residents of multiple Ukrainian cities. A large price for a small hole in a bridge and a bruised Russian ego. 

Yeah cos he has been very dignified until now. Don’t think you get how this war thing works with your fear of Putin. You do know he invaded Ukraine yes?

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

1) irrelevant. It's 2022

2) what did they serve to gain from a little hole that'll get fixed in no time? Is the price worth it? Pick your fights. 

 

Give me strength

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

1) irrelevant. It's 2022

2) what did they serve to gain from a little hole that'll get fixed in no time? Is the price worth it? Pick your fights. 

 

It’s not irrelevant. If anything’s irrelevant it’s these missile attacks, in the grand scheme of the war. Killing a few innocent people in Lviv and Kyiv will have no detrimental effect on Ukraine’s military. What they will gain is putting the bridge out of order and disrupting military supplies to the entire southern region. Even the idea of disruption will have an effect, when the airbase was attacked a couple of months back, tens of thousands of Russians fled crimea. Now there is talk of disrupted supplies, more are fleeing, others are panic buying, the military have to second guess if the bridge will be attacked again, security has to be beefed up etc.

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

1) irrelevant. It's 2022

2) what did they serve to gain from a little hole that'll get fixed in no time? Is the price worth it? Pick your fights. 

 

1) "And yet people say Ukraine is winning" - yes they probably are, just like the Alies in 1944. The similarity is clear.

2) The psychology of the attack is crucial to both sides ; positive to the people suffering the direct impact of Russian atrocities, negative to Russians who are complacent if not complicit about Putin's despotism. It is the sort of negative news that Rossiya 1 cannot gloss over or ignore.

Edited 10 October, 2022 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

If you and Whitey are pointing to sabotage, I don't buy it. Russia didn't need an excuse to do what's happened overnight and whatever will follow. Surovikin wants to flex his muscles. 

Sabotage, false flag, or stealth boat - it almost certainly wasn't a truck bomb. The timing, being the day after Putin's birthday, is no coincidence, and neither was the target, one of his personal pet projects.

As for the Russians not needing an excuse, true, but they need to reinvigorate popular support for the war after the conscription fiasco, and even their domestic news programs have become far less positive in their outlook over the past couple of weeks.

[egg]

28 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah cos he has been very dignified until now. Don’t think you get how this war thing works with your fear of Putin. You do know he invaded Ukraine yes?

 

27 minutes ago, whelk said:

Give me strength

I'm all for stepping it up and smashing their air force/navy. At least get value for reprisals. A hole in a bridge is a token victory. 

[egg]

26 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s not irrelevant. If anything’s irrelevant it’s these missile attacks, in the grand scheme of the war. Killing a few innocent people in Lviv and Kyiv will have no detrimental effect on Ukraine’s military. What they will gain is putting the bridge out of order and disrupting military supplies to the entire southern region. Even the idea of disruption will have an effect, when the airbase was attacked a couple of months back, tens of thousands of Russians fled crimea. Now there is talk of disrupted supplies, more are fleeing, others are panic buying, the military have to second guess if the bridge will be attacked again, security has to be beefed up etc.

You can view the psychology in a number of ways. Sure, the damage to the bridge is a psychological blow to Russia, but it'll be repaired in no time and won't make a significant difference to their war effort. The impact is Russia smashing the shit out of various cities which, to the civilians of Lviv and Kyiv who were relatively safe, will be massive. I'd hazard a guess that there is more panic on the streets of Ukrainian cities than in Crimea. 

 

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

You can view the psychology in a number of ways. Sure, the damage to the bridge is a psychological blow to Russia, but it'll be repaired in no time and won't make a significant difference to their war effort. The impact is Russia smashing the shit out of various cities which, to the civilians of Lviv and Kyiv who were relatively safe, will be massive. I'd hazard a guess that there is more panic on the streets of Ukrainian cities than in Crimea. 

When I see a convoy of vehicles tens of km long leaving Lviv I might be inclined to believe that. Ukrainians already know, and have done since February, they’re in an existential fight against a tyrant who wants to wipe them out and claim their land for his own Russian empire. This is nothing new to them and as scary as it is it won’t change their resolve in the slightest. It’ll just reaffirm their need to fight for every inch of their homeland. For Russians in Crimea it’s different, they’ve been sunning their arses on holiday, oblivious to the, "special military operation to remove Nazis," happening hundreds of miles away.

I don’t know why you’re insisting it’s just some symbolic hole in a bridge that’s easily repaired. Firstly I’d wager the intent was to do more damage and possibly collapse a portion of it. Secondly, as I said, this will mean more forces need to be held back to protect the bridge against further attacks and carry out checks on vehicles crossing. It’s all resources which will be drained from the front line.

[badgerx16]

10 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

 

I don’t know why you’re insisting it’s just some symbolic hole in a bridge that’s easily repaired. Firstly I’d wager the intent was to do more damage and possibly collapse a portion of it. Secondly, as I said, this will mean more forces need to be held back to protect the bridge against further attacks and carry out checks on vehicles crossing. It’s all resources which will be drained from the front line.

It's not just the bridge; the level of paranoia around protecting every item of infrastructure the Russians now feel obligated to defend, the number of checkpoints at every major transport junction, and the generally increased security Police presence in Crimea will only serve to swell the uneasiness among the imported Russian population there.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

 

I'm all for stepping it up and smashing their air force/navy. At least get value for reprisals. A hole in a bridge is a token victory. 

It shows Russians they are not immune from consequences as well as fucking up logistics. I don’t think it will be a day or two to repair.

If we know one thing about Putin he does not respect weakness. This is a dirty fight and as if he was fighting fair before the bridge attack that has now driven him to hit innocent civilians is ridiculous. It is what he has been doing since February (see Bucha and Izium graves). 

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

When I see a convoy of vehicles tens of km long leaving Lviv I might be inclined to believe that. Ukrainians already know, and have done since February, they’re in an existential fight against a tyrant who wants to wipe them out and claim their land for his own Russian empire. This is nothing new to them and as scary as it is it won’t change their resolve in the slightest. It’ll just reaffirm their need to fight for every inch of their homeland. For Russians in Crimea it’s different, they’ve been sunning their arses on holiday, oblivious to the, "special military operation to remove Nazis," happening hundreds of miles away.

I don’t know why you’re insisting it’s just some symbolic hole in a bridge that’s easily repaired. Firstly I’d wager the intent was to do more damage and possibly collapse a portion of it. Secondly, as I said, this will mean more forces need to be held back to protect the bridge against further attacks and carry out checks on vehicles crossing. It’s all resources which will be drained from the front line.

Exactly. They have been under threat from Russia since 2003 and have already seen parts of thier country invaded and parts of their neighbours invaded. They are used to it and developed the psychology necessary to fight because the other option is to be destroyed.  

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Don't you?

We have no way of knowing. There are too many potential suspects

[buctootim]

Dear subscribers and guests of the channel! Russian President Vladimir Putin learned about the explosion on the Crimean bridge, followed by a partial collapse and fire on the railway part of this bridge, about 20 minutes after the incident. Putin was awakened and told the most unpleasant news. The president received reports on what was happening for several hours until a more or less clear picture was determined. The version that the explosion on the bridge was “the work of the Ukrainian special services” was the main one from the very beginning, but it immediately became clear that without the assistance (or criminal negligence, which is not clearer) of the Russian special services, the matter could not have done.

In mid-September, FSB director Alexander Bortnikov addressed the president with an urgent proposal to agree on the replacement of the leadership of several services and departments of the FSB. Bortnikov made the main emphasis on problems with the leadership of the second service of the FSB, the CIB of the FSB, and the leadership of several territorial departments. Bortnikov also reported a high level of terrorist threat in several subjects. Putin then postponed the adoption of a decision on coordination, apparently based on some of his own reasons, agreeing only to minor rotations in the FSB CIB.

A few days before the incident on the Crimean bridge, Nikolai Patrushev, Secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation, during a visit to Crimea, said that local authorities should increase the level of countering terrorism. The same proposal was formulated to Putin and Patrushev supported Bortnikov, reminding Putin of the need to resolve pressing personnel issues in the FSB. Putin then recommended Patrushev to make specific proposals, to which Patrushev replied that the proposals had been formulated for a long time and were awaiting consideration by the president, Putin promised to sort it out soon.

The President received reports that indicated several people from the leadership of the FSB and the National Guard who could take part in organizing and preparing the explosion on the Crimean bridge. In particular, they directly point to the possible involvement of Alexei Zhalo, deputy head of the Second FSB Service.
The last thing Putin wants now is to look for enemies within the system. The strike on the Crimean bridge, as a symbol of his geopolitical claims, worries him only in the light of his “debunking” as a “collector of Russian lands.” If you openly define the enemies within the system who encroached on the main symbol of his success, then this means signing the collapse of the system and regime. Putin's system can be exclusively monolithic.

The situation is also the same with the “response to the Ukrainian terrorists”, which was reported to Putin by the progressive senile chairman of the Investigative Committee Alexander Bastrykin. Bastrykin himself was given the text shortly before the meeting with the president, and he simply repeated what he remembered and how he could.
Putin is expected to react and he decides what to do. Last night, the permanent members of the Security Council of the Russian Federation received warnings that the meeting could be held at any time and even at night, they had to be ready to either arrive at the meeting venue or go on air via video link. Putin has been probing the waters by video chatting with several members of the Security Council to see if they are ready to support the president's proposal for the use of tactical nuclear weapons. The proposal should have been formulated in such a way that it does not mean the immediate use of nuclear weapons, but only confirms, gives consent (in the person of the permanent members of the Security Council) to the possibility of using it at any time in the event of an aggravation of the situation. And Putin was going to raise this question during the meeting of the Security Council only if all the participants in the meeting, without exception, were ready to give a positive answer. Show the next red lines and make it clear that there will be a blow next. But according to our information, among the permanent members of the Security Council there were people who, at the stage of discussion with the president of this possibility, expressed their doubts.

Putin needs to answer, but the options between "very bad," vague, and "nuclear" are bringing the president closer to the end of his reign much faster than even before the explosion on the Crimean bridge could have been imagined.

GENERALL SVR (https://t.me/generallsvr)

[moonraker]

3 hours ago, egg said:

 

I'm all for stepping it up and smashing their air force/navy. At least get value for reprisals. A hole in a bridge is a token victory. 

I disagree, to conduct a credible and successful military campaign logistic are everything.  Disrupting supplies and support, even on a temporary basis, has as much if not greater value than shooting down a couple of MIGs or blowing up a few tanks.  Throughout history the victors in military campaigns have been those who ,understood, managed and prioritised logistics.  The Russians have been very poor at this to date and anything the Ukraine can do to disrupt their efforts even further will pay dividends.  That is not to mention the PR value of this strike.

[whelk]

Ukrainian rail chief tweets. No sorry arse excuse for wrong kind of snow or leaves.

 

[buctootim]

6 minutes ago, moonraker said:

I disagree, to conduct a credible and successful military campaign logistic are everything.  Disrupting supplies and support, even on a temporary basis, has as much if not greater value than shooting down a couple of MIGs or blowing up a few tanks.  Throughout history the victors in military campaigns have been those who ,understood, managed and prioritised logistics.  The Russians have been very poor at this to date and anything the Ukraine can do to disrupt their efforts even further will pay dividends.  That is not to mention the PR value of this strike.

Exactly. Disrupting the enemies ability to fight is the great leveller and ecan enable a smaller force to beat a bigger one. Having 2,000 tanks against 200 and 10,000 artillery against 1,000 is no advantage if the bigger forces tanks and artillery have no fuel or ammo     

[Jimmy_D]

4 hours ago, egg said:

1) irrelevant. It's 2022

2) what did they serve to gain from a little hole that'll get fixed in no time? Is the price worth it? Pick your fights. 

 

They already put the bridge out of action for a few days. That alone will cost Russia a lot on the southern front where logistics are already stretched to breaking point.

On top of that there was a fuel tanker burning on top of that bridge for hours. That reinforced concrete there is severely weakened. They won’t be able to run full weight trains over it. That one attack was an enormous hit to everything Russia are trying to do militarily.

Most plausible explanation for this is still long range rocket artillery. Ukraine can likely hit it again once Russia have wasted resources trying to repair it.

[revolution saint]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

They already put the bridge out of action for a few days. That alone will cost Russia a lot on the southern front where logistics are already stretched to breaking point.

On top of that there was a fuel tanker burning on top of that bridge for hours. That reinforced concrete there is severely weakened. They won’t be able to run full weight trains over it. That one attack was an enormous hit to everything Russia are trying to do militarily.

Most plausible explanation for this is still long range rocket artillery. Ukraine can likely hit it again once Russia have wasted resources trying to repair it.

If it's anything like the work they do on the Millbrook and Redbridge flyovers then the delays will be a nightmare.  

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

If it's anything like the work they do on the Millbrook and Redbridge flyovers then the delays will be a nightmare.  

If they get the same contractors from there they will no doubt suck their teeth, shake their heads and say you are looking at at least 5 years minimum comrade

[farawaysaint]

30 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

They already put the bridge out of action for a few days. That alone will cost Russia a lot on the southern front where logistics are already stretched to breaking point.

On top of that there was a fuel tanker burning on top of that bridge for hours. That reinforced concrete there is severely weakened. They won’t be able to run full weight trains over it. That one attack was an enormous hit to everything Russia are trying to do militarily.

Most plausible explanation for this is still long range rocket artillery. Ukraine can likely hit it again once Russia have wasted resources trying to repair it.

It is the only logistics route not in range of Ukrainian artillery to service the Southern front.

It was very sound tactics to hit hard. 

[badgerx16]

Road traffic over the Kerch bridge is limited to cars. Anything larger has to use the ferries.

[buctootim]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Road traffic over the Kerch bridge is limited to cars. Anything larger has to use the ferries.

Did you see the ferry? It made the Cowes ferry look huge   

Edited 10 October, 2022 by buctootim

[Tamesaint]

49 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Did you see the ferry? It made the Cowes ferry look huge   

Is it as good as the Woolston ferry?

[skintsaint]

Putin couldn't have get enough conscripts then..so he asks his puppet.

[Lighthouse]

That’ll go down a treat, they were already on the verge of revolution before all of this. Christ knows how a one way ticket to NATOs Ukrainian meat grinder is going to play in the streets of Minsk.

[buctootim]

These are Kalibr missiles. Ther most recent and most accurate of the Russian missiles. That power station in Kyiv is fucking huge. Both missed.  The Russians are evil and  vindictive. Thank God there are also mostly useless. Thats why they hit a lot of housing, fire and hope. 

 

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, buctootim said:

These are Kalibr missiles. Ther most recent and most accurate of the Russian missiles. That power station in Kyiv is fucking huge. Both missed.  The Russians are evil and  vindictive. Thank God there are also mostly useless. Thats why they hit a lot of housing, fire and hope. 

 

I disagree, the Russians correctly identified the strategically inportant, and logistically critical, children's playground and successfully detroyed both the swings AND the roundabouts. Thankfully, the slide was unloaded, so there were no secondary explosions.

Edited 10 October, 2022 by badgerx16

[kyle04]

2 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Putin couldn't have get enough conscripts then..so he asks his puppet.

This is the man (known affectionately as Mr Potato Head) who burst into tears when Putin angrily stormed out of a meeting a few months back. This arsehole's really playing with fire, Russia are already launching missiles and drones from Belarus territory, one Belarus soldier steps over the border and it's all the excuse Ukraine need, not that they need a 3rd extended front right now but their HIMARS and artillery might start making mincemeat of their positions quite quickly. I really don't know how fragile his position is, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him either "Musolinied" or exiled to the Kremlin at some point, Putins only ally in Europe gone.

Germany delivers first of IRIS-T air defense systems to Ukraine, late as usual but it all helps.

[manji]

Not on a wind up. Extreme Fascism has been embedded in Ukro since 1900s. They have been massacring Russian natives since the Maiden 2014. Ukraine has been bolstered by USA because of its decline to destabilise Europe. Fuck US hegemony how many countries have they invaded and destabilised. Hundreds.

Ukraine has been prodding Russia with a stick for years. They are getting their just deserts.

sickened by western propaganda sucked too amazing how many airheads are lapping it up. 
Many examples Daily Mail said Russia was running out of missiles well their were 300 missile strikes today.

Edited 10 October, 2022 by manji

[Jimmy_D]

1 minute ago, manji said:

 

The message they've sent is "We're too weak to take on military targets, so we're targeting defenceless civilians."

Militarily these attacks do nothing for them. In fact the opposite, it's using up their limited supplies of precision missiles.

[buctootim]

Ah. Got to love The Duran and the two Alex(es). They brought us such book gems as "Adam Schiff’s Ukrainegate Circus & The Testimony of Deep State Clowns" and "Russiagate: The Deep State Coup & AG Barr to the Rescue" but my personal favourite is the book which charts " the meteoric rise of Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party"

https://drnshop.com/product-category/ebooks/

Edited 10 October, 2022 by buctootim

[manji]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

The message they've sent is "We're too weak to take on military targets, so we're targeting defenceless civilians."

Militarily these attacks do nothing for them. In fact the opposite, it's using up their limited supplies of precision missiles.

Limited 😂 you’ll believe anything. Most targets were military and infrastructure.

The vast majority of Neo-cons on here are going to get a nasty shock.

Edited 10 October, 2022 by manji

[buctootim]

7 minutes ago, manji said:

Limited 😂 you’ll believe anything. Most targets were military and infrastructure.

The vast majority of Neo-cons on here are going to get a nasty shock.

How many missiles can a superpower with an economy smaller than Italy's afford? 

[Jimmy_D]

7 minutes ago, manji said:

Limited 😂 you’ll believe anything. Most targets were military and infrastructure.

The vast majority of Neo-cons on here are going to get a nasty shock.

So I guess attacks like today, that Russia's been preparing for weeks for to scrape together the missiles to carry it out, they'll be a daily occurrence now eh?

[kyle04]

17 minutes ago, manji said:

 

It's been established a while ago that Mercouris is a pro Kremlin mouthpiece, anything that emerges from his smug mouth is worthless. If these people are your hero's Manji then you are beyond help. I'm surprised you haven't referenced Trump's latest eloquent ramble of the need for peace talks. I suspect you may be just a sad WUM, nobody this stupid could work a PC or iPhone surely? I think Badgerx16 is still waiting for a reply regarding the strike on civillian infrastructure. Your response is to post a YT video of a useful idiot.

[AlexLaw76]

22 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

The message they've sent is "We're too weak to take on military targets, so we're targeting defenceless civilians."

Militarily these attacks do nothing for them. In fact the opposite, it's using up their limited supplies of precision missiles.

I would not suggest the UK is weak, but we regularly took out "defenceless civilians" in the not too distant past.

Hell, the USA used to take out defenceless civilians and anyone (including friendly forces) in the way. 

[egg]

22 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

The message they've sent is "We're too weak to take on military targets, so we're targeting defenceless civilians."

Militarily these attacks do nothing for them. In fact the opposite, it's using up their limited supplies of precision missiles.

I'm not challenging what you say as I don't pretend to know the position, but I'm intrigued to know what you base your position on? We all hope that that they're weak and out of missiles, but claiming it is something more.

[Jimmy_D]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not challenging what you say as I don't pretend to know the position, but I'm intrigued to know what you base your position on? We all hope that that they're weak and out of missiles, but claiming it is something more.

Among other limitations, sanctions mean they can't produce or obtain the microchips or materials for precision guided munitions.

Missed Targets: the Struggles of Russia’s Missile Industry - CEPA

They're not 'out' of missiles as such, but they can't get anywhere near sustaining heavy usage of them.

[Sheaf Saint]

20 minutes ago, manji said:

Most targets were military and infrastructure.

If you're so certain of this then would you be so good as to share your sources with us? Cheers.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Among other limitations, sanctions mean they can't produce or obtain the microchips or materials for precision guided munitions.

Missed Targets: the Struggles of Russia’s Missile Industry - CEPA

They're not 'out' of missiles as such, but they can't get anywhere near sustaining heavy usage of them.

But you claim they're weak. Is that hope or do you have some kind of knowledge? As for microchips, they'll get them - China, Iran, others won't give a monkeys about minor issue like sanctions. North Korea have developed nukes and regularly build the missiles and kit to build and fire missiles against the background of hideous sanctions. 

[buctootim]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

But you claim they're weak. Is that hope or do you have some kind of knowledge? As for microchips, they'll get them - China, Iran, others won't give a monkeys about minor issue like sanctions. North Korea have developed nukes and regularly build the missiles and kit to build and fire missiles against the background of hideous sanctions. 

Erm. China Iran and others dont have them, dont make them.  High tech chips are produced almost solely by the US, Japan, Taiwan, Britian and the Netherlends. The scramble by Russia to find some kinds of alternatives on world markets is well documented.   

Edited 10 October, 2022 by buctootim

[egg]

4 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Erm. China Iran and others dont have them, dont make them.  High tech chips are produced almost solely by the US, Japan, Taiwan, Britian and the Netherlends. The scramble by Russia to find some kinds of alternatives on world markets is well documented.   

So who supplies China and Iran theirs? They ain't getting them from Taiwan or the USA! I don't want to go all Manji, but I do think some people are believing what they hope to be the case. 

[Jimmy_D]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

But you claim they're weak. Is that hope or do you have some kind of knowledge? As for microchips, they'll get them - China, Iran, others won't give a monkeys about minor issue like sanctions. North Korea have developed nukes and regularly build the missiles and kit to build and fire missiles against the background of hideous sanctions. 

In the past 2-3 weeks, Russia have lost territory that took them months to take. Any progress on the front line has been minimal to none for months. Putin has been forced to use a significant amount of domestic political capital to partially mobilise and reinforce the Russian army, with limited effect. The limited supply of precision missiles is self demonstrating by how rare events like today have been. Sanctions really have been having an effect, and that's not an assumption. Instead of using precision missiles to target Ukraine's military capability, they've used them to target highly visible targets, that don't help them in any significant military way, but that instead can be used for propoganda both domestically and internationally. That appears to be the only way they can claim any sort of success currently, hence it sends a message of weakness.

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, egg said:

So who supplies China and Iran theirs? They ain't getting them from Taiwan or the USA! I don't want to go all Manji, but I do think some people are believing what they hope to be the case. 

Belarus. But its really old tech. Like equipping your missiles with an Intel pentium c1995