kyle04 Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: Russians are giving troops a week to fight then giving them a weeks leave and let a another division take over. Quoting Manji : Not really, they've been sending in separatist "voluteers" to do the cannon fodder bit, the DPR openly admitted a few weeks ago that they had lost half their troops, the replacements would not have had a few months at Bovington first I would imagine... As for the Nazi/Bandera/Azov/SS narrative it's ancient history (you forgot to mention Stalin in your tutorial, why?) . Doubtless there are a few Ukrainians with right wing views (the AZOV batallion number(ed) around a thousand men, hardly a significant number). Also the UN casualty figures for the 2014-2021 fighting was for both sides, and there's ample evidence of Russians firing GRAD's for exmple from the cover of residential buildings. Edited 27 July, 2022 by kyle04 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 The second one 😅 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 1 hour ago, kyle04 said: Looks like they've done that : Looks like they hit it again last night as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 Ex USMC Intelligence Officer. Gets most of info from Western Sources. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 14 minutes ago, manji said: Ex USMC Intelligence Officer. Gets most of info from Western Sources. They don’t work so well when sanctions are preventing Russia getting hold of the chips they need to provide ammunition for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, manji said: Ex USMC Intelligence Officer. Gets most of info from Western Sources. I fell asleep after the first few sentences. Edit: When they shaved his head they took some of his brains away too. Edited 27 July, 2022 by Whitey Grandad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 34 minutes ago, manji said: Gets most of info from Western Sources So do Matt Le Tissier and Ted Cruz. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 22 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: They don’t work so well when sanctions are preventing Russia getting hold of the chips they need to provide ammunition for them. Still waiting for the T-14s to appear rather than them deploying T62s...😅 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 1 hour ago, manji said: Ex USMC Intelligence Officer. Gets most of info from Western Sources. He is an overtly anti-US propagandist with a history of promoting pro-Russian stories, and among other things denies that the Chinese are oppressing the Uighurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 Sanctions aren’t working . He explains that most of his info is from https://www.janes.com the bible of World Military Munitions in every Military Academy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 22 minutes ago, manji said: Sanctions aren’t working . He explains that most of his info is from https://www.janes.com the bible of World Military Munitions in every Military Academy. Sanctions are cumulative. The effect builds up over time as stuff needs to be serviced, repaired or replaced. Now Russia has planes and cars and computers and phones. In three years time, not so much 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 10 minutes ago, buctootim said: Sanctions are cumulative. The effect builds up over time as stuff needs to be serviced, repaired or replaced. Now Russia has planes and cars and computers and phones. In three years time, not so much They'll be fuelling their solid fuel missiles with coal soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 2 hours ago, manji said: Ex USMC Intelligence Officer. Gets most of info from Western Sources. Bit of ramble really. with the longer range rockets the HIMARS is still a superior weapon I would say, at least as accurate, faster re-loading time and quicker over the ground. He swallows the "destroyed HIMARS" line without qualifiyng it , just points to an article which says "Russia says it destroyed 4 HIMARS. Ukraine deny it". That's it, no other evidence, just believe what the Russians say because western media always lies.ay Russia has entered the power station in Svitlodarsk, which on the western bank of a large resovoir. They first took the eastern side on 23rd May, so it's taken them 2 months to advance 1-2km. Theres been virtually no movement elsewhere in the Donbass since Lysychansk was taken. At this rate they'll be there decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 53 minutes ago, manji said: Sanctions aren’t working . He explains that most of his info is from https://www.janes.com the bible of World Military Munitions in every Military Academy. Russia’s ability to resupply advanced weaponry and maintain equipment has been utterly crippled. They’re running their military on stockpiles now, but those only last so long. There’s a reason we’ve seen them using S400 rockets and anti ship rockets against ground targets, and it’s not because they’re the best weapons to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 37 minutes ago, buctootim said: Sanctions are cumulative. The effect builds up over time as stuff needs to be serviced, repaired or replaced. Now Russia has planes and cars and computers and phones. In three years time, not so much That pre supposes that China will play the western game. I doubt they will, and it'll be all but impossible to police it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 1 minute ago, egg said: That pre supposes that China will play the western game. I doubt they will, and it'll be all but impossible to police it. China are already quietly placing themselves on the side of the West, for the moment at least. https://www.ft.com/content/470e2518-410b-4e78-9106-cf881dd43028 A weakened Russia probably benefits China in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, manji said: Sanctions aren’t working . He explains that most of his info is from https://www.janes.com the bible of World Military Munitions in every Military Academy. You and the bald twat in the video are missing the point. Wether one system is slightly better than the other is irrelevant, the game changer is the fact that Ukraine now have a capability they didn’t previously have. With HIMARS and the access to NATO intelligence and satellites they can pick off Russian targets at will that they couldn’t before. Edited 27 July, 2022 by aintforever 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 Just now, Jimmy_D said: China are already quietly placing themselves on the side of the West, for the moment at least. https://www.ft.com/content/470e2518-410b-4e78-9106-cf881dd43028 A weakened Russia probably benefits China in the long run. No FT subscription sadly. I suspect that China is or will be dancing with all the girls at the party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 27 July, 2022 Share Posted 27 July, 2022 4 hours ago, kyle04 said: Bit of ramble really. with the longer range rockets the HIMARS is still a superior weapon I would say, at least as accurate, faster re-loading time and quicker over the ground. He swallows the "destroyed HIMARS" line without qualifiyng it , just points to an article which says "Russia says it destroyed 4 HIMARS. Ukraine deny it". That's it, no other evidence, just believe what the Russians say because western media always lies.ay Russia has entered the power station in Svitlodarsk, which on the western bank of a large resovoir. They first took the eastern side on 23rd May, so it's taken them 2 months to advance 1-2km. Theres been virtually no movement elsewhere in the Donbass since Lysychansk was taken. At this rate they'll be there decades. If these Tornado thingies are so accurate then why do they keep hitting schools, hospitals and apartment blocks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 Meanwhile, actual leaked US intelligence; All of Russia's worldwide military interests outside of Ukraine are currently being covered by less than 20% of their military, including the defence of Russia itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 6 hours ago, Jimmy_D said: A weakened Russia probably benefits China in the long run. I read somewhere (i'll dig link out when I find it) that China may hope Russia goes into turmoil if they fail in Ukraine, an opportunity to grab in the East land back from the Russians from a previous treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 7 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said: If these Tornado thingies are so accurate then why do they keep hitting schools, hospitals and apartment blocks? They have no one left to tell them where to aim them since all the Generals died. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 5 hours ago, Jimmy_D said: Meanwhile, actual leaked US intelligence; All of Russia's worldwide military interests outside of Ukraine are currently being covered by less than 20% of their military, including the defence of Russia itself. I'll take US figures on losses with a pinch if salt. I think many in the west are hoping that Russia are doing rather than worse than they are, both militarily and economically. The truth is that their losses will be huge, but there's no avoiding that big chunks of the western world will sink into recession and suffer huge inflation as a result of all of this, so it's inevitable that the extent of Russian loss/suffering will be exaggerated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 5 hours ago, Jimmy_D said: Meanwhile, actual leaked US intelligence; All of Russia's worldwide military interests outside of Ukraine are currently being covered by less than 20% of their military, including the defence of Russia itself. If that is remotely true, then the constant threat of Russia moving further into Europe if they win Ukraine, is overstated bollocks. we will be nudged into ensuring the publics suppers remains, as energy prices get more ridiculous as the winter comes in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: If that is remotely true, then the constant threat of Russia moving further into Europe if they win Ukraine, is overstated bollocks. It always has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 5 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: If that is remotely true, then the constant threat of Russia moving further into Europe if they win Ukraine, is overstated bollocks. we will be nudged into ensuring the publics suppers remains, as energy prices get more ridiculous as the winter comes in! No one thinks they are going to invade Germany, this is all about 'regaining historical 'Russian' lands' but if they are allowed to win in Ukraine and merge with Belarus they will get incrementally stronger and more ambitious. If we let them take Ukraine why wouldnt they take the Baltic states and Moldova and another chunk of Finland? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 48 minutes ago, buctootim said: No one thinks they are going to invade Germany, this is all about 'regaining historical 'Russian' lands' but if they are allowed to win in Ukraine and merge with Belarus they will get incrementally stronger and more ambitious. If we let them take Ukraine why wouldnt they take the Baltic states and Moldova and another chunk of Finland? Putin has gone public on his aspirations to return to historic Russian borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 16 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said: If these Tornado thingies are so accurate then why do they keep hitting schools, hospitals and apartment blocks? To be fair I don’t think Russia are using the tornado as their main armament. The majority of mlr strikes appear to be the horrendously inaccurate grad system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 9 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: If that is remotely true, then the constant threat of Russia moving further into Europe if they win Ukraine, is overstated bollocks. we will be nudged into ensuring the publics suppers remains, as energy prices get more ridiculous as the winter comes in! 70000 is the US estimate for killed and wounded. Usually that'd mean 14000-17500 killed. That's probably a conservative estimate based only on data they have relatively solid evidence for. Ukraine's own estimated figures put it at over 40000 Russian troops killed. Regardless of the true figures, they're certainly facing shortages. The threat of Russia invading beyond Ukraine was over as soon as they lost a large number of their best troops failing to take Kyiv. Russia has thrown away most of their hard power, which as it turns out wasn't anywhere near as much as anyone thought, and along with that, all the soft power that being percieved as being a significant military threat gave them. Public support for supporting Ukraine is there because it's Ukraine that are being invaded. That's enough. Trying to imply that there needs to be some threat beyond Ukraine for public support to continue is ridiculous. Another thing that Russia's thrown away is the perception that they're a reliable energy supplier. They've shown that they're willing to use energy supply as a weapon. Any western country currently using Russian energy is looking for ways to reduce that, and Russia won't be getting anything it loses that way back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killers Knee Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killers Knee Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 6 minutes ago, Killers Knee said: Got as far as them saying they don't know what 'successfully damaging three bridges' means and trying to discredit that with Russia saying they'd repelled it, when there are pictures of it out of action, a replacement ferry(!) service in place, and reports from 'officials' in Kherson that the bridge is closed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 28 July, 2022 Share Posted 28 July, 2022 3 hours ago, Killers Knee said: Mercouris is a well established Putin stooge, who seems to hate the west, while being quite happy to live here. There's a few of these c**ts in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 How can a counter offensive be a last stand? I'm sure a last stand is holding a defensive line against a larger force 😅 Anyone see that video of the Russian guy castrating a UA POW? pretty gruesome stuff and 'the internet' has outed his personal info etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 16 hours ago, Jimmy_D said: 70000 is the US estimate for killed and wounded. Usually that'd mean 14000-17500 killed. That's probably a conservative estimate based only on data they have relatively solid evidence for. Ukraine's own estimated figures put it at over 40000 Russian troops killed. Regardless of the true figures, they're certainly facing shortages. The threat of Russia invading beyond Ukraine was over as soon as they lost a large number of their best troops failing to take Kyiv. Russia has thrown away most of their hard power, which as it turns out wasn't anywhere near as much as anyone thought, and along with that, all the soft power that being percieved as being a significant military threat gave them. Public support for supporting Ukraine is there because it's Ukraine that are being invaded. That's enough. Trying to imply that there needs to be some threat beyond Ukraine for public support to continue is ridiculous. Another thing that Russia's thrown away is the perception that they're a reliable energy supplier. They've shown that they're willing to use energy supply as a weapon. Any western country currently using Russian energy is looking for ways to reduce that, and Russia won't be getting anything it loses that way back. So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 6 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! No. What they are saying is correct, Putin's megalomania is driving Russia to restore it's Tsarist borders. The fact that Russia's military is severely underperforming won't detract from his ambition. He is getting ever closer to an impersonation of Hitler in his bunker in April 1945, ordering 'ghost' divisions around, which exist on the Heer Order of Battle, but can no longer muster a Colour Party. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 23 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! Given Shell and Centrica’s record q2 profits I’m not so convinced that Ukraine is the main driver of energy price increases… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revolution saint Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 20 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! If I recall correctly you were one of the people saying the West wouldn't be able to stop Putin and his war machine, effectively it was pointless trying to intervene in Ukraine. Now that military assistance appears to be working you've changed your tune and Russia apparently isn't all that great. As I understood it the warnings about further Russian expansion were based on the West doing nothing - obviously military and economic actions means that's unlikely now. You don't stop doing something if it's working. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 21 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: No. What they are saying is correct, Putin's megalomania is driving Russia to restore it's Tsarist borders. The fact that Russia's military is severely underperforming won't detract from his ambition. He is getting ever closer to an impersonation of Hitler in his bunker in April 1945, ordering 'ghost' divisions around, which exist on the Heer Order of Battle, but can no longer muster a Colour Party. Ok then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 35 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! You don’t understand. Russia doesn’t have to do it all in one go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Ok then Is that it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 2 hours ago, badgerx16 said: No. What they are saying is correct, Putin's megalomania is driving Russia to restore it's Tsarist borders. The fact that Russia's military is severely underperforming won't detract from his ambition. He is getting ever closer to an impersonation of Hitler in his bunker in April 1945, ordering 'ghost' divisions around, which exist on the Heer Order of Battle, but can no longer muster a Colour Party. Medvedev's vision of Europe : https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/07/27/7360535/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 3 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! I definitely remember you banging on about how good Russia's army was - were you lying too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 7 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! Well, Putin has said again and again that he intends to restore the Russian Empire and expand the Russian sphere of influence. I’ve seen plenty of reports saying that those are Russia’s intentions, not too many that think those intentions are realistic, outside of Russian shills claiming it’ll happen. However, the reason that’s it’s not feasible is that Ukraine, with the help of NATO backing, have performed absolute heroics defending their home. Ukraine are the ones that are stopping Russia, and they’re owed a great debt for that sacrifice. You seem to be implying that if Russia are too weak to expand beyond Ukraine, we should abandon them to appease Russia in the (unlikely) hope that they’ll give us cheap energy again? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 29 July, 2022 Author Share Posted 29 July, 2022 9 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said: So when the great and the good tell us on TV that if we don’t stop Russia here, then they will continue through Ukraine and into Eastern Europe - they are lying to us! Be interesting to see how strong the support for Ukraine remains (mostly from EU states) as winter rolls in and monthly energy prices exceed your monthly mortgage payment! Thick twat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 29 July, 2022 Share Posted 29 July, 2022 1 minute ago, whelk said: Thick twat 😂😂😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 30 July, 2022 Share Posted 30 July, 2022 FT article from 2008 about the Russian invasion of Georgia. Replace Georgia with Ukraine and Sarkozy woith Macron and every word remains true today. Its show how much absolute clear warning the West had and how we tried really really hard to pretend we hadnt heard. Putin maps the boundaries of greater Russia Philip Stephens AUGUST 28 2008 We need to get this straight. Vladimir Putin’s Russia has invaded a neighbour, annexed territory and put in place a partial military occupation. It seeks to overthrow the president of Georgia and to overturn the global geopolitical order. It has repudiated its signature on a ceasefire negotiated by France’s Nicolas Sarkozy and disowned its frequent affirmations of Georgia’s territorial integrity. Most importantly: all of this is our fault. The “our” in this context, of course, refers to the US and the more headstrong of its European allies such as Britain. If only Washington had been nicer to the Russians after the fall of the Berlin Wall. If only the west had not humiliated Moscow after the break-up of the Soviet Union. Surely we can see now what a provocation it was to allow the former vassal states of the Soviet empire to exercise their democratic choice to join the community of nations? And what of permitting them to shelter under Nato’s security umbrella and to seek prosperity for their peoples in the European Union? Nothing, surely, could have been more calculated to squander the post-cold-war peace. Such is the cracked record played over and over again by the Russian prime minister and recited now by Dmitry Medvedev, Russia’s notional president. Sadly, it also finds echoes among those in Europe who prefer appeasing Mr Putin to upholding the freedoms of their neighbours. This Russian claim to victimhood is as vacuous as it is dishonest. Mr Putin has said the collapse of the Soviet Union was the great geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. Now he wants to subjugate his country’s neighbours in the cause of a greater Russia. The aim is to turn back the clock: to extend his country’s borders to create the greater Russia sought by the leaders of the abortive coup against Boris Yeltsin in 1991. The west must not collude with Mr Putin’s falsified version of history. There is no doubt that Russians feel they suffered great hurt and indignity during the 1990s. They did. But it is a misreading of events to blame the US, the west, the EU or Nato. The blindingly obvious point is that humiliation was inevitable and unavoidable. Until the collapse of communism the world belonged to Washington and Moscow. Suddenly almost everything was lost to Russia. The political and economic system that had once aspired to global domination was reduced to dust. Open a history book. Humiliation is what happens when nations lose their empires. Ask the British. Half a century after Suez, part of the British psyche still laments this retreat from the world. You could say the same about the French. The implosion of the Soviet Union could not stir anything but a sense of shame among Russians. But ah, you hear Mr Putin’s apologists say, the west fed Russian paranoia. For half a century central and eastern Europe had been signed over to Moscow. Now the west’s institutions rolled like tanks up to Russia’s borders. The problem is that this account does not fit the facts. George H.W. Bush was anything but triumphalist in his response to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Indeed, the then US president faced sharp criticism from many Americans for refusing to dance on communism’s grave. It is true Bill Clinton’s presidency began with some rhetorical flourishes about spreading democracy. And the US administration did press hard for the expansion of Nato, in part because the EU dragged its feet about opening its doors. Some doubted the wisdom of the Nato policy. George Kennan, the author of the cold war doctrine of containment, was among those arguing against Mr Clinton. But then, the revered Mr Kennan was not infallible. He had, after all, opposed the creation of the alliance. Doubtless there were moments when the US, and Europe for that matter, could have been more tactful. The disciples of free markets dispatched to Moscow by the International Monetary Fund probably bear some blame for the catastrophic melt-down of Russia’s economy. But no, the historical record does not show a deliberate or concerted effort by the US or anyone else to mock or multiply Russia’s misfortunes. When Mr Putin talks about humiliation, he means something else. Washington’s crime was to assume that the Yalta agreement had fallen along with the Berlin Wall, and that the peoples and nations of the erstwhile Soviet empire should thus be free to make their own choices. In the Kremlin’s mindset, showing due respect for Russia would have meant allowing it to continue to hold sway over its near-abroad. The most that the citizens of Ukraine and the Baltic states should have expected was the ersatz independence now bestowed on South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Poles, Hungarians, Czechs and the rest should have been locked out of western institutions. Mr Putin has reopened the issue that seemed to have been settled in 1991 when Yeltsin saw off the tanks at the doors of the Russian White House. Yeltsin decided that the borders of the Russian Federation should follow those of the Soviet republics. That left the Crimea as part of Ukraine, Ossetia and Abkhazia as part of Georgia. Mr Putin’s doctrine is calculated to reclaim Moscow’s sovereignty over ethnic Russians in neighbouring states. This is a greater Russia by another means. The doctrine overturns one of the central geopolitical assumptions of the past two decades: that, for all its hurt pride, Russia saw its role as a powerful player within a post-cold-war geopolitical order. Mr Medvedev, speaking with his master’s voice, now repudiates the laws and institutions of that order. For all the occasional bluster about a new authoritarian axis between Moscow and Beijing, the contrast that has most struck me in recent weeks has been between China and Russia. Beijing saw the Olympics as a celebration of China’s return as a great power. China has by no means signed up to the norms and assumptions of liberal democracy; it has still to decide whether it wants to be a free rider or a stakeholder in the international system. But it has concluded that its future lies with integration into a stable world order. Moscow’s invasion of Georgia and its public scorn at the likely international response speaks to an entirely different mindset: a retreat from integration and a preference for force over rules. Russia’s neighbours are told they can be vassals or enemies. Mr Medvedev boasts Russia is ready for another cold war. I struggle to see what Russia will gain. It is friendless. Governments and foreign investors alike now know that Moscow’s word is worthless. The price of aggression will be pariah status. Mr Putin, of course, will blame the west. philip.stephens@ft.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 31 July, 2022 Share Posted 31 July, 2022 Things to do when a war isnt exciting enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 31 July, 2022 Share Posted 31 July, 2022 3 minutes ago, buctootim said: Things to do when a war isnt exciting enough Get tyre'd doing that all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 1 August, 2022 Share Posted 1 August, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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