Russia

[Jimmy_D]

3 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

MP and Odessa regional council head said today “on fire but not sunk”.

Ah well, can’t have everything I guess.

Still pretty embarrassing another ship got hit.

Still unverified so far, but looks like it might genuinely have been hit, and pretty badly, considering first reports were in the middle of the night and this footage looks like it shows fires still burning after sunrise.

Either way, looks like it won't be a threat again any time soon.

If it doesn't sink, Russia has a crippled warship as a drain on its resources for the forseeable future, if the refit of the Admiral Kuznetsov is anything to go by.

[skintsaint]

Looks like something off a game that 😅

[kyle04]

Those Russian sailors really must stop smoking on duty.

[Jimmy_D]

15 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Looks like something off a game that 😅

Like I said, still unverified, reportedly from a drone at long distance. On the game front, that model isn't natively in any of the games that usually crop up with fakes like that. It's possible it could have been modded into one though.

Dmitry Peskov, the Russian presidential spokesman, earlier said that they didn't have any information about the Ukrainian claims, rather than an outright denial, which lends a little credence to it being hit.

Just have to wait and see.

[spyinthesky]

I dont think it has been hit, just another example of an internal explosion which has had a minor affect on the vessel.
However it is heading into another storm in the Black Sea and there is the possibility of this causing the ship to sink.
The good news is that all crew will be saved and able to join others at the May 9th celebration in Red Square.
Any alternative reports are simply Fake News put out by discredited Western media.

[Jonnyboy]

22 hours ago, farawaysaint said:

This is the battle of Mariupol in 2014.

If say the IRA took over a government building do you think the government would send in special police yes or no? Every government on earth would have reacted in some manner to separatists taking over government buildings ffs.

IRA? These are fellow Ukranians, in what world is burning to death 50 odd people you disagree with acceptable? 

[Jimmy_D]

39 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

IRA? These are fellow Ukranians, in what world is burning to death 50 odd people you disagree with acceptable? 

I feel like the word 'disagree' is doing a fair bit of heavy lifting for the actions of russian-backed armed separatists storming and taking a government building here.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

IRA? These are fellow Ukranians, in what world is burning to death 50 odd people you disagree with acceptable? 

It isn't 'acceptable', but sometimes bad things become necessary. Humans are an imperfect species, and society places a thin veneer over animal brutality, but on occasion violence is the only way to prevent worse outcomes.

In 2014 Russia was trying to subvert Ukraine's desire to democratise and move away from Kremlin imposed autocracy, and the 'little green men' led an armed insurrection intended to destroy the Ukrainian national identity. The Ukrainians felt justified in resisting.

War is hell, but some things are worth fighting for.

 

Still, you keep on trying to find ways to justify what is happening in Mariupol, Mykolaiv, Kharkiv, etc.

Edited 6 May, 2022 by badgerx16

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

IRA? These are fellow Ukranians, in what world is burning to death 50 odd people you disagree with acceptable? 

That was Odessa you plank. At least get the city right. 

[Jonnyboy]

30 minutes ago, buctootim said:

That was Odessa you plank. At least get the city right. 

Thank you for the correction. Horrible to hear that these sort atrocities happened in multiple cities. 

[Jonnyboy]

34 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

It isn't 'acceptable', but sometimes bad things become necessary. Humans are an imperfect species, and society places a thin veneer over animal brutality, but on occasion violence is the only way to prevent worse outcomes.

In 2014 Russia was trying to subvert Ukraine's desire to democratise and move away from Kremlin imposed autocracy, and the 'little green men' led an armed insurrection intended to destroy the Ukrainian national identity. The Ukrainians felt justified in resisting.

War is hell, but some things are worth fighting for.

 

Still, you keep on trying to find ways to justify what is happening in Mariupol, Mykolaiv, Kharkiv, etc.

Sounds like Russia could use the exact same language to justify their violent actions. 

As I've said all along, a negotiated settlement is the only way forward and its just a shame that it didn't take place decades ago. There's no shame in dividing up a country and giving autonomy to different areas if it prevents violence. 

[Whitey Grandad]

7 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Sounds like Russia could use the exact same language to justify their violent actions. 

As I've said all along, a negotiated settlement is the only way forward and its just a shame that it didn't take place decades ago. There's no shame in dividing up a country and giving autonomy to different areas if it prevents violence. 

No it couldn't. Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way round.

[Matthew Le God]

16 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

There's no shame in dividing up a country and giving autonomy to different areas if it prevents violence. 

Yes there is. Caving into an aggressor and handing over territory makes them think they can get away with an illegal act of an aggressive war and may do so again in the future. The Russians can't be trusted to make any peace deal, this can only really end when Putin or Putin followers are out of power.

 

Edited 6 May, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[kyle04]

If Ukraine ceded the Donbas, all it would result in is more secured Russian controlled territory within Ukraine, and a more emboldened Russia. Next would follow the drive along the south to Odesa and on to Traninistra and Moldova, with direct land supply lines from Russia, which is what they're aiming to do now but can't because Ukraine is resisting them on every front. Let's not forget in 1996 Ukraine handed over it's nukes to Russia in exchange for guarantees never to be invaded. On every level Russia just cannot be trusted to honor any "agreement" should one be negotiated. The failed attempt to take Kyiv showed Putin's hand, and every objective so far has backfired.

[Lighthouse]

26 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

As I've said all along, a negotiated settlement is the only way forward and its just a shame that it didn't take place decades ago

It did. Putin just doesn’t like that the Ukrainians are using the freedoms set out in those agreements in order to not be his friend any more.

[Jimmy_D]

47 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Sounds like Russia could use the exact same language to justify their violent actions. 

As I've said all along, a negotiated settlement is the only way forward and its just a shame that it didn't take place decades ago. There's no shame in dividing up a country and giving autonomy to different areas if it prevents violence. 

Russia ceded any moral right to gain anything a long time ago, and Ukraine has proved they’re nowhere near strong enough to take it by force.

Russia won’t end up gaining anything from this.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

 There's no shame in dividing up a country and giving autonomy to different areas if it prevents violence. 

It's called Balkanisation, splitting a country up into smaller and smaller entities to no ultimate benefit, playing of perceived 'differences' and 'weaknesses' to provide the justification.

I'll give you a ( slightly contrived ) example;

Moving on from the current structure of the UK, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales all gain full independence. At this point, Cornwall and Devon decide that London is too remote to be relied on for effective Governance and start agitating for their freedom. At the same time the counties north of the Mersey/Humber demand self rule - however having acheived this Lancashire and Yorkshire stand at loggerheads as neither will accept power given to the other; Cumbria determines that it wants away from these 2 ancient rivals and sets up on it's own, followed by the creation of the People's Republics of Tyneside and Wearside. Northumberland and Durham woo Scotland with the intention of joining the Jocks in the EU.

Meanwhile, Devon and Cornwall have border disputes along the banks of the Tamar, which result in violent sectarian exchanges, they split, and Cornwall sets Kernewek as it's official language.

The City of London, as the financial centre of the Universe, ( in it's own eyes ), becomes fed up with having to pass on part of the income it generates to other parts of the country, and declares all land within the M25 as it's hegemony and fiefdom, and pulls up the metaphorical drawbridge, leaving the Home Counties rudderless. The majority of Hampshire takes advantage of these political upheavals to build a wall to isolate Portsea Island and set armed guards to prevent any escape.

=============================================================

In the real world, you get external agitation stirring up emnities that aren't really a problem, such as Russia's arming of insurgents in the Donbas on a bogus pretext.

Edited 6 May, 2022 by badgerx16

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, kyle04 said:

If Ukraine ceded the Donbas, all it would result in is more secured Russian controlled territory within Ukraine, and a more emboldened Russia. Next would follow the drive along the south to Odesa and on to Traninistra and Moldova, with direct land supply lines from Russia, which is what they're aiming to do now but can't because Ukraine is resisting them on every front. Let's not forget in 1996 Ukraine handed over it's nukes to Russia in exchange for guarantees never to be invaded. On every level Russia just cannot be trusted to honor any "agreement" should one be negotiated. The failed attempt to take Kyiv showed Putin's hand, and every objective so far has backfired.

Think I met her once.

[CB Fry]

9 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

As I've said all along, a negotiated settlement is the only way forward and its just a shame that it didn't take place decades ago

Maybe call it the USSR or something.

[buctootim]

16 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

a negotiated settlement is the only way forward and its just a shame that it didn't take place decades ago. There's no shame in dividing up a country and giving autonomy to different areas if it prevents violence. 

 

Something like this negotiated settlement to divide a country and prevent violence you mean?

 

 

Edited 7 May, 2022 by buctootim

[Weston Super Saint]

Looks like the Russians have bombed a school today where locals were sheltering.

I'm guessing that they'll spin it as bombing another missile factory 

[badgerx16]

44 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Looks like the Russians have bombed a school today where locals were sheltering.

I'm guessing that they'll spin it as bombing another missile factory 

Or the Ukrainian Nazis did it themselves, like all those dead bodies in Bucha that appeared after the Russians took over.

[buctootim]

4 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Or the Ukrainian Nazis did it themselves, like all those dead bodies in Bucha that appeared after the Russians took over.

According to Russian tv it was British intelligence which staged that 'provocation' 

[kyle04]

Snake island levelled by Ukrainian aircraft strikes :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c8cHTo3Yr4

Hope they can target the Kerch bridge next.

 

[Jimmy_D]

29 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Snake island levelled by Ukrainian aircraft strikes :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c8cHTo3Yr4

Hope they can target the Kerch bridge next.

 

Still no confirmation either way on whether Admiral Makarov was hit, but something happened there to force Russian ships (and the anti-air capability they were providing) to pull way back and allow the counter attacks on Snake Island to occur.

Seen some speculation that it may have actually been a Russian sub that was hit, based on the infra-red satellite data and the types of NATO aircraft that responded when the Makarov speculation was emerging.

[kyle04]

Russians still pumping out the BS :

It seems from the TB2 footage bombs from 2 aircraft were enough to do the job, can't see any evidence of helicopters or landing craft, they weren't needed and Ukraine aren't stupid enough to try and recapture the island only to get wiped out themselves pretty quickly.

[kyle04]

33 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Still no confirmation either way on whether Admiral Makarov was hit, but something happened there to force Russian ships (and the anti-air capability they were providing) to pull way back and allow the counter attacks on Snake Island to occur.

Seen some speculation that it may have actually been a Russian sub that was hit, based on the infra-red satellite data and the types of NATO aircraft that responded when the Makarov speculation was emerging.

 

Edited 8 May, 2022 by kyle04

[badgerx16]

20 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Russians still pumping out the BS :

It seems from the TB2 footage bombs from 2 aircraft were enough to do the job, can't see any evidence of helicopters or landing craft, they weren't needed and Ukraine aren't stupid enough to try and recapture the island only to get wiped out themselves pretty quickly.

There is also this drone footage of a Russian helo dropping troops off onto the island and getting totally blatted during disembarkation;

 

[farawaysaint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

There is also this drone footage of a Russian helo dropping troops off onto the island and getting totally blatted during disembarkation;

 

I heard this was a Ukrainian helo? At least that is the Russian view.

looks like Ukraine hit snake island with Tbs and SUs over the last couple of days though.

[Jimmy_D]

2 minutes ago, farawaysaint said:

I heard this was a Ukrainian helo? At least that is the Russian view.

looks like Ukraine hit snake island with Tbs and SUs over the last couple of days though.

Not sure this has been verified, but this person was spot on about the Moskva when it was hit.

I'm more inclined to think something he's put out will turn out to be genuine than Russian State Media at any rate.

[farawaysaint]

23 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Not sure this has been verified, but this person was spot on about the Moskva when it was hit.

I'm more inclined to think something he's put out will turn out to be genuine than Russian State Media at any rate.

Hmmm Ukraine claiming that they have effectively wiped out Russian presence on the island.

 

Christo usually has his finger on the Russian pulse. Apparently it was a Russian helo full of spetsnaz.

Edited 8 May, 2022 by farawaysaint

[kyle04]

15 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Not sure this has been verified, but this person was spot on about the Moskva when it was hit.

I'm more inclined to think something he's put out will turn out to be genuine than Russian State Media at any rate.

Oryx reporting it in their list, they're pretty reliable generally.

The Makarov "hit" remains a bit of a mystery, some Youtube comments stating it's in Sevastepol unscathed, the Twitter video claims it's burning,who or what to believe sometimes. One thing's for sure, Ukraine still have TB2's active, despite Russia claiming to have destroyed 40 of them, when they only had 34 to begin with.  Haven't seen anything to suggest that Turkey have supplied any more recently.

[farawaysaint]

2 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Oryx reporting it in their list, they're pretty reliable generally.

The Makarov "hit" remains a bit of a mystery, some Youtube comments stating it's in Sevastepol unscathed, the Twitter video claims it's burning,who or what to believe sometimes. One thing's for sure, Ukraine still have TB2's active, despite Russia claiming to have destroyed 40 of them, when they only had 34 to begin with.  Haven't seen anything to suggest that Turkey have supplied any more recently.

Actually they just received an order of 12 new drones with more to come.

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/ukraine-places-order-for-additional-drones-after-acquiring-12-turkish-uavs-report-articleshow.html

Sidebar given the constant posts of tb2 hits I don’t think Russia came close to destroying Ukraine’s original stock.

Edited 8 May, 2022 by farawaysaint

[kyle04]

2 minutes ago, farawaysaint said:

Actually they just received an order of 12 new drones with more to come.

https://m.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/ukraine-places-order-for-additional-drones-after-acquiring-12-turkish-uavs-report-articleshow.html

Sidebar given the constant posts of tb2 hits I don’t think Russia came close to destroying Ukraine’s original stock.

Thanks, thats good news for Ukraine. I read a while ago that they were running out of the bombs for their TB2's, and were improvising with other munitions (80mm mortar rounds for example, cheap and deadly). Biden also proposing a further £33billion in military aid, while the US won't send their best stuff that could be a game changer.

[badgerx16]

 

[badgerx16]

Smile lads, be grateful that you are in Moscow and not Ukraine.

[buctootim]

[whelk]

Any news on the May 9th nuke? Deciding whether to fill the car up or not 

[farawaysaint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Any news on the May 9th nuke? Deciding whether to fill the car up or not 

Putin called us all Nazis but seems to be happy looting washing machines for now. I have put a padlock on my Bosch just to be sure.

[farawaysaint]

Oh Poland…

 

 

[buctootim]

Brown shirts marching with armbands. 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

Brown shirts marching with armbands. 

 

Silly Russians.  They've put the 'N' for 'Nazi' arm bands round the wrong way.

[kyle04]

Putin's speech a little muted by all accounts, basically saying NATO made us do it so don't feel bad we had no choice.

I didn't like the Polish paint/juice throwing incident BTW, fully understand the hostility but it seemed a little undignified. The Russian diplomats (sorry FSB officers) took it well though. The ceremony was to be a mark of respect for the millions killed fighting Hitler, I think a more restrained civilized protest would have had more impact and shown the Russians that we're not like you.

[buctootim]

13 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Putin's speech a little muted by all accounts, basically saying NATO made us do it so don't feel bad we had no choice.

I didn't like the Polish paint/juice throwing incident BTW, fully understand the hostility but it seemed a little undignified. The Russian diplomats (sorry FSB officers) took it well though. The ceremony was to be a mark of respect for the millions killed fighting Hitler, I think a more restrained civilized protest would have had more impact and shown the Russians that we're not like you.

I agree in part - if it happened in London or Western Europe. But you have to remember Poland along with most of central Europe was invaded in 1939 by the Soviet Union along with Germany and held prisoner for 50 years. The Soviets killed the entire Polish political and military class at Katyn, massacring 20,000 people in one go. Why the fuck should they allow the Russians to celebrate Soviet soldiers. Its amazing tolerance they didnt tear down the memorial years ago. 

Remember Germany and Russia only ceased being allies and became enemies because they fell out over who got rhe bigger share of the invaded territories. Had they not we reallty would be speaking German and everyone east of the Rhine Russian.  The only reason Britain and France didnt declare war on the Soviet Union as well as Germany is because we couldnt hndle them as well as the Axis nations.     

Edited 9 May, 2022 by buctootim

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Putin's speech a little muted by all accounts, basically saying NATO made us do it so don't feel bad we had no choice.

I didn't like the Polish paint/juice throwing incident BTW, fully understand the hostility but it seemed a little undignified. The Russian diplomats (sorry FSB officers) took it well though. The ceremony was to be a mark of respect for the millions killed fighting Hitler, I think a more restrained civilized protest would have had more impact and shown the Russians that we're not like you.

I think most of the protesters were Ukrainian refugees.

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Remember Germany and Russia only ceased being allies and became enemies because they fell out over who got rhe bigger share of the invaded territories. Had they not we reallty would be speaking German and everyone east of the Rhine Russian.      

I don't think this is correct. The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was negotiated to buy both sides time; for the Russians to try the Winter War against Finland whilst rebuilding their officer corps after Stalin's purge, and for the Germans to knock out the Western allies so as to not face the risk of a war on 2 fronts. A conflict between Nazism and Communism was always going to happen, as Hitler predicted, driven by the desire for Lebensraum. Some sources even claim that Barbarossa pre-empted Soviet plans to attack westwards.

Edited 9 May, 2022 by badgerx16

[Lighthouse]

I agree with Tim, f**k them. Not just for historical reasons but it's pretty hard to respect the fallen soldiers of any nation when, at that very moment, they're gunning and raping their way through the innocent civilians of Eastern Ukraine.

[buctootim]

13 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I don't think this is correct. The Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was negotiated to buy both sides time; for the Russians to try the Winter War against Finland whilst rebuilding their officer corps after Stain's purge, and for the Germans to knock out the Western allies so as to not face the risk of a war on 2 fronts. A conflict between Nazism and Communism was always going to happen, as Hitler predicted, driven by the desire for Lebensraum. Some sources even claim that Barbarossa pre-empted Soviet plans to attack westwards.

No, its correct. The maps above show what Molotov and Ribbentrop agreed and what actually happened on the ground. 

 

Edited 9 May, 2022 by buctootim

[kyle04]

5 minutes ago, buctootim said:

I agree in part - if it happened in London or Western Europe. But you have to remember Poland along with most of central Europe was invaded by the Soviet Union along with Germany and held prisoner for 50 years. The Soviets killed the entire Polish political and military class at Katyn, massacring 20,000 people in one go. Why the fuck should they allow the Russians to celebrate Soviet soldiers. Its amazing tolerance they didnt tear down the memorial years ago. 

Remember Germany and Russia only ceased being allies and became enemies because they fell out over who got rhe bigger share of the invaded territories. Had they not we reallty would be speaking German and everyone east of the Rhine Russian.  The only reason Britain and France didnt declare war on the Soviet Union as well as Germany is because we couldnt hndle them as well as the Axis nations.     

All good points, which begs the question why allow the ceremony to take place at all (particularly now, and I assume it's an annual event?)

[Jimmy_D]

18 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Putin's speech a little muted by all accounts, basically saying NATO made us do it so don't feel bad we had no choice.

I didn't like the Polish paint/juice throwing incident BTW, fully understand the hostility but it seemed a little undignified. The Russian diplomats (sorry FSB officers) took it well though. The ceremony was to be a mark of respect for the millions killed fighting Hitler, I think a more restrained civilized protest would have had more impact and shown the Russians that we're not like you.

Apparently they cancelled the flyover portion of the parade too.

Claimed to be due to bad weather, but it seems that weather was better than last year when the flyover went ahead.

My gut feeling is that either they got some sort of intelligence that an anti-air missile attack was possible, or Putin got paranoid for some reason.