Russia

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

Because i’m capable of having sympathy for 2 things at the same time. Because I dislike the thin edge of the wedge where it’s deemed acceptable to come after someone for dubious reasoning related to their ancestry.

 

Lol

[Holmes_and_Watson]

I do have some sympathy for individual players. They aren't on sanctions lists, may have differing levels of connection with Russia and their profile and that of their sport plays a part in number 10 in Comms with the organisers. I had heard yesterday, there were other tennis organisations who felt differently.

However, any sense of normality in their participation will be milked shamelessly in Russia and fed to a populace with restricted access to alternative views. Not to mention those there that support their leadership's actions. Whether they participate under their flag or not.

A policy of restricting their participation completely isolates them from latching onto any success or spin. The more isolated, the more chance of change, in some form, over whatever length of time.

I also wouldn't want players to have to openly declare their views on the invasion. They may have family put at risk as a result, and there could be lasting implications beyond the conflict. Public self flagellation, while talks go on between politicians isn't something I'd be demanding. Again, even if that happened their success/participation would be spun at home.

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, Baird of the land said:

Don’t see how punishing individuals based on ancestry who may not currently live in Russia at events where they wouldn’t be officially representing Russia is right or puts the slightest pressure on the Russian govt.

Because at the moment the Russian people are being fed a whole load of bullshit propaganda about the war, this is one way of maybe getting the message across that the rest of the world thinks what their government is doing is wrong.

[Baird of the land]

8 hours ago, aintforever said:

Because at the moment the Russian people are being fed a whole load of bullshit propaganda about the war, this is one way of maybe getting the message across that the rest of the world thinks what their government is doing is wrong.

It doesn't get that message across at all. It sends a mccartyite message of coming after people based on ancestry. Russian media won't even have to spin it as punishing someone for sin of being born in russia when not even representing Russia is going to engender outrage. It even bans players who have been anti the war.

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Baird of the land

[skintsaint]

Russia has suffered a couple of fires at key sites in the last 24 hours. Wonder if just a coincidence.🤔

[Lighthouse]

48 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

It doesn't get that message across at all. It sends a mccartyite message of coming after people based on ancestry. Russian media won't even have to spin it as punishing someone for sin of being born in russia when not even representing Russia is going to engender outrage. It even bans players who have been anti the war.

They are representing Russia. Imagine something like this happening to the UK, if Lewis Hamilton was still out winning F1 races, we wouldn’t all suddenly pretend he was a completely different person, from Turkmenistan.

Everything you’ve said could also apply to Russian soldiers. Should we have a rule not to shoot them, in case we kill a non-rapey, forced conscript who doesn’t support Putin? It’s war, there will be innocent casualties.

[Baird of the land]

25 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

They are representing Russia. Imagine something like this happening to the UK, if Lewis Hamilton was still out winning F1 races, we wouldn’t all suddenly pretend he was a completely different person, from Turkmenistan.

Everything you’ve said could also apply to Russian soldiers. Should we have a rule not to shoot them, in case we kill a non-rapey, forced conscript who doesn’t support Putin? It’s war, there will be innocent casualties.

They aren't representing Russia or Belarus, they are working for themselves, not even living in Russia. This isn't Davis Cup. Restricting whether someone is allowed to work based on their ethnicity is wrong. If people are stupid enough to want to support Lewis Hamilton because he was once born in the UK but ran off to Monaco at the earliest opportunity that's your idiocy.

Pretty sure UK isn't at war with Russia currently so yeah we shouldn't be shooting any russian soldiers. Ukraine's forces are quite within their rights to be shooting invading soldiers. Soldiers aren't innocent casualties regardless of how they were recruited.

 

 

Edited 22 April, 2022 by Baird of the land

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Baird of the land said:

It doesn't get that message across at all. It sends a mccartyite message of coming after people based on ancestry. Russian media won't even have to spin it as punishing someone for sin of being born in russia when not even representing Russia is going to engender outrage. It even bans players who have been anti the war.

I disagree, Russia will obviously try and spin it however they want but if we just let Russia compete as normal they will just spin that as the whole world being behind them. It’s tough on the competitors effected but the more pressure applied the better, even if it only prompts a few people to try and look beyond the propaganda for the truth.

[Manuel]

10 hours ago, aintforever said:

I disagree, Russia will obviously try and spin it however they want but if we just let Russia compete as normal they will just spin that as the whole world being behind them. It’s tough on the competitors effected but the more pressure applied the better, even if it only prompts a few people to try and look beyond the propaganda for the truth.

I'm coming round to this point of view but still think it's unfair on individual competitors.  I understand Medvedev hasn't even lived in Russia for years, for example.  

So the unfairness on individuals is justifiable because of the greater good that the ban might achieve.  I get it, but still feel sorry for the individuals (providing they are anti the invasion of course). 

[AlexLaw76]

10 hours ago, aintforever said:

I disagree, Russia will obviously try and spin it however they want but if we just let Russia compete as normal they will just spin that as the whole world being behind them. It’s tough on the competitors effected but the more pressure applied the better, even if it only prompts a few people to try and look beyond the propaganda for the truth.

You say the whole world? 
you mean the western world?

even the western world is dis-unified against Russia.

Edited 22 April, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[badgerx16]

25 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

You say the whole world? 
you mean the western world?

even the western world is dis-unified against Russia.

He said that if we don't apply strict sanctions then the Russians would spin it as 'the whole world being behind them', and effectively supporting the SMO.

Try reading and understanding the posts you respond to.

Edited 22 April, 2022 by badgerx16

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He said that if we don't apply strict sanctions then the Russians would spin it as 'the whole world being behind them', and effectively supporting the SMO.

Try reading and understanding the posts you respond to.

Fair point, I did not read it properly 

[kyle04]

Seems Russia has whacked 2 olligarchs recently, one in Russia, another living in Spain. Oh, and the wife and daughters of both, just to make it look like murder/suicide.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Manuel said:

I'm coming round to this point of view but still think it's unfair on individual competitors.  I understand Medvedev hasn't even lived in Russia for years, for example.  

So the unfairness on individuals is justifiable because of the greater good that the ban might achieve.  I get it, but still feel sorry for the individuals (providing they are anti the invasion of course). 

There's a Russian cycling team (Russian owned), that has numerous other nationalities riding for them as well as countless staff, coaches etc the majorit of whom are not Russian.  I understand why the 'team' has had its racing licence removed given that it is funded by Russian money, but that leaves ALL of the staff and riders without a job.  Since the racing licence has been rescinded by the UCI, the contracts state that there is no responsibility to pay the staff.

That doesn't seem particularly fair to the people in the team and probably could have been avoided if the UCI had left the licence in place but just banned the team from competing....

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, kyle04 said:

Seems Russia has whacked 2 olligarchs recently, one in Russia, another living in Spain. Oh, and the wife and daughters of both, just to make it look like murder/suicide.

They killed thousands of Ukrainian civilians and now they’ve started on their own.

[cloggy saint]

17 hours ago, kyle04 said:

Seems Russia has whacked 2 olligarchs recently, one in Russia, another living in Spain. Oh, and the wife and daughters of both, just to make it look like murder/suicide.

That's six oligarchs who have died under "suspicious circumstances" since the start of the war.

[whelk]

Gutting that not been a dead general recently. 

[Matthew Le God]

17 minutes ago, whelk said:

Gutting that not been a dead general recently. 

Two more dead today and another wounded...

 

Edited 23 April, 2022 by Matthew Le God

[Whitey Grandad]

45 minutes ago, whelk said:

Gutting that not been a dead general recently. 

They’ve got thousands of ‘em.

[whelk]

33 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Two more dead today and another wounded...

 

Ooooh a brace. Excellent news. Let’s hope the wound gets infected 

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ooooh a brace. Excellent news. Let’s hope the wound gets infected 

You don’t get anything for a pair…

[Jimmy_D]

On 22/04/2022 at 19:17, AlexLaw76 said:

You say the whole world? 
you mean the western world?

even the western world is dis-unified against Russia.

There’s very little support for the Russian invasion outside of Russia.

There’s a certain level of tolerance for it from some places, due to either the cost of opposing Russia and existing deals, or opportunism of Russia being being forced to buy and sell in a smaller market, but everywhere is facing uncertainty because of it.

[badgerx16]

"For Russia. For the victory"

 

After a few weeks in the sun it seems to have changed sides.....

 

Edited 23 April, 2022 by badgerx16

[Jonnyboy]

On 18/04/2022 at 21:23, buctootim said:

No. It's true that after the invasion of 2014 there was a big upswing in Ukrainian patriotism and identity and there have been moves to mainstream use of Ukrainian in public life and schools but the languages share maybe 70% of their words and most people still speak Russian in some form. Removal of 'Russian' monuments and statues is actually about Soviet communist monuments.      

The examples I saw were the eternal flame munuments to the millions of Russians who died in WW2 fighting the Nazis. 

[badgerx16]

8 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

The examples I saw were the eternal flame munuments to the millions of Russians who died in WW2 fighting the Nazis. 

A war where probably thousands of civilians have been deliberately killed is bound to change opinions.

[buctootim]

8 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

The examples I saw were the eternal flame munuments to the millions of Russians who died in WW2 fighting the Nazis. 

Why would Ukrainians want Soviet / Russian monuments on their territory?  They were invaded and occupied by them. Do you have any idea what Stalin and other Soviets did to them? - worse even than the Nazis. Invasion and destruction of their country in 1917, a deliberate forced famine to subjugate them in the 1930s killing around 4 million. Another 6 million in WW2 - 25% of the population wiped out by purges and brutality with an average life expectancy of 8 years at birth. The NKVD massacring the prison population of Ukraine in 1941.

Why woulds they want any monuments celebrating how wonderful it all was?  These are Ukrainian monuments.    

 

 

Edited 24 April, 2022 by buctootim

[buctootim]

 

[kyle04]

Couple of Nazis if ever I've seen one.

[buctootim]

 

Fascinating thoughtful analysis about the future not just of this war, but of the whole of Russia and China taking in nuclear weapons, famine in China and population 

 

 

[badgerx16]

Apparently activists in Belarus disrupted the rail network in the early weeks of the invasion and caused severe problems for Russian supply lines. This was made easier because the Belarus rail network management system operates on Windows XP.

[whelk]

8 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Apparently activists in Belarus disrupted the rail network in the early weeks of the invasion and caused severe problems for Russian supply lines. This was made easier because the Belarus rail network management system operates on Windows XP.

Anonymous probably gave it to a junior trainee to cut their teeth.

[Jimmy_D]

Both Sweden and Finland have agreed to apply to join NATO next month.

Can’t imagine too many barriers will be put in their way.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Jimmy_D said:

Both Sweden and Finland have agreed to apply to join NATO next month.

Can’t imagine too many barriers will be put in their way.

Norfolk better watch out as that is the needless provocation he needs to shell us. 

[kyle04]

33 minutes ago, whelk said:

Norfolk better watch out as that is the needless provocation he needs to shell us. 

Is that what the Kremlin has long termed "the East Anglian Question" ?

[badgerx16]

On 24/04/2022 at 00:53, Jonnyboy said:

The examples I saw were the eternal flame munuments to the millions of Russians who died in WW2 fighting the Nazis. 

Presumably you have no issue with the statue in Kyiv celebrating 'Friendship' between Ukraine and Russia being dismantled.

[Jonnyboy]

On 24/04/2022 at 09:24, buctootim said:

Why would Ukrainians want Soviet / Russian monuments on their territory?  They were invaded and occupied by them. Do you have any idea what Stalin and other Soviets did to them? - worse even than the Nazis. Invasion and destruction of their country in 1917, a deliberate forced famine to subjugate them in the 1930s killing around 4 million. Another 6 million in WW2 - 25% of the population wiped out by purges and brutality with an average life expectancy of 8 years at birth. The NKVD massacring the prison population of Ukraine in 1941.

Why woulds they want any monuments celebrating how wonderful it all was?  These are Ukrainian monuments.    

 

 

Seems to me that the country is terminally divided between those that want to be Ukranian and those that want to be Russian. Isn't that what Russia has said all along?

Perhaps rather than all this death and destruction some sort of agreement to split the country would've been better? 

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, Jonnyboy said:

Seems to me that the country is terminally divided between those that want to be Ukranian and those that want to be Russian. Isn't that what Russia has said all along?

Perhaps rather than all this death and destruction some sort of agreement to split the country would've been better? 

Really? Who wants to be Russian? 

[Jonnyboy]

3 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Really? Who wants to be Russian? 

A referendum would reveal that. 

Zelensky said he sees Ukraine as the new Israel. I guess he sees some people as becoming second class citizens. 

Edited 25 April, 2022 by Jonnyboy

[Lighthouse]

6 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Seems to me that the country is terminally divided between those that want to be Ukranian and those that want to be Russian. Isn't that what Russia has said all along?

Perhaps rather than all this death and destruction some sort of agreement to split the country would've been better? 

Or they could f**k off and actually live in Russia, if it's really that important to them. Which it isn't.

[buctootim]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Or they could f**k off and actually live in Russia, if it's really that important to them. Which it isn't.

The Donbass is the most 'pro' Russia area of Ukraine. In 2013 before the Russian invasion the population was around 6.3 million. When Russia invaded (the leaders of the 'militia' were Russian army officers) 3 million refugees were created. 2.5 million relocated within Ukraine and only 500,000 relocated to Russia - despite Russia offering immediate passports, jobs and money and it being a richer country. Thats a pretty clear referendum imo - and that was 8 years ago - before the present day schitt.     

[whelk]

23 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Seems to me that the country is terminally divided between those that want to be Ukranian and those that want to be Russian. Isn't that what Russia has said all along?

Perhaps rather than all this death and destruction some sort of agreement to split the country would've been better? 

All this death and destruction is a result of your psychopathic mate

[Jimmy_D]

22 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Seems to me that the country is terminally divided between those that want to be Ukranian and those that want to be Russian. Isn't that what Russia has said all along?

Perhaps rather than all this death and destruction some sort of agreement to split the country would've been better? 

That's like saying Ireland should hold a referendum now to avoid the threat of death and destruction due to the threat of British invasion.

There's no excuse or justification for what Russia has done.

[whelk]

56 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Is that what the Kremlin has long termed "the East Anglian Question" ?

Symbolic to take out the Linton Travel Tavern and home of Tales of the Unexpected

[whelk]

Just now, Jimmy_D said:

That's like saying Ireland should hold a referendum now to avoid the threat of death and destruction due to the threat of British invasion.

There's no excuse or justification for what Russia has done.

Mate it’s the West. Never simple in Jonny’s eyes.

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Seems to me that the country is terminally divided between those that want to be Ukranian and those that want to be Russian. Isn't that what Russia has said all along?

Perhaps rather than all this death and destruction some sort of agreement to split the country would've been better? 

Putin doesn't want to 'liberate' the 'Russians' in Donbas, he has openly admitted he wants the whole of Ukraine back as Russian territory, as he does not recognise Ukraine's right to exist independently. His next stop will be Moldova, not just Transnistra, and without NATO he would roll on to the Baltic states. His aim is to reinstate the Russian empire. He is as much an expansionist megalomaniac as Hitler was.

Edited 25 April, 2022 by badgerx16

[Jonnyboy]

36 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Putin doesn't want to 'liberate' the 'Russians' in Donbas, he has openly admitted he wants the whole of Ukraine back as Russian territory, as he does not recognise Ukraine's right to exist independently. His next stop will be Moldova, not just Transnistra, and without NATO he would roll on to the Baltic states. His aim is to reinstate the Russian empire. He is as much an expansionist megalomaniac as Hitler was.

Source? 

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Source? 

Well, there were the photos of Lukashenko standing in front of a large battle map which said, "invasion of Moldova, this way," and explaining it to a room full of high ranking generals. Very subtle but the clues are there.

[badgerx16]

19 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Source? 

The man himself ;

"“Ukraine is not just a neighboring country for us, It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture, and spiritual space. Ukraine’s borders have no meaning other than to mark a former administrative division of the Soviet Union: “Modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia.”"

He is currently attempting to create what is known as 'Novorossiya'.

Also, try this.....

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

Edited 25 April, 2022 by badgerx16

[kyle04]

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

“Ukraine is not just a neighboring country for us, It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture, and spiritual space. Ukraine’s borders have no meaning other than to mark a former administrative division of the Soviet Union: “Modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia.”"

As deluded and inaccurate as the Nazi's Aryan race theory, Ukraine has been subject to unspeakable brutality by Russia/USSR for over a century now, so by some perverse logic it seems the two are intertwined. The Ukrainians seem to have an awful lot of national pride and patriotism for a country that really dosen't exist. As their cities have been pounded, has their army surrendered, mutinied, attempted a coup? A former comedy actor FFS has stared down one of the most ruthless dispassionate figures in world politics.

[whelk]

Navalny is one courageous dude.