Russia

[cloggy saint]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Focussing on what truly matters

 

I have no idea who Peter Schiff is, but fuck him.

[Weston Super Saint]

One for debate....  Are the far right (in Ukraine) still bad or are they now good?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60767664

Quote

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky says another Russian general has been killed during fighting.

He didn't name the officer, but an adviser to Ukraine's interior ministry said Maj Gen Oleg Mityaev had been killed by the far-right Azov Battalion.

Some serious cognitive dissonance with this one  

[Dman]

14 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

It’s as much of a symbol or statement as anything else. The phrase, "convicted of war-crimes in The Hague," carries a certain gravitas and mingles you in with some fairly unpleasant company. Most Putin supporters won’t care but it might start to dawn on some normal Russians who think this is just a localised military operation.

Here he talks about ‘Cleansing’ the nation of traitors. I’m sure many already do, but I doubt they’ll speak up due to fear of what will happen. 

Yet Putin isn’t the problem, it’s those (democratically appointed) pesky Ukrainian Nazi’s fault!! 
 

there has been some dreadful takes on this forum, but that nonsense from Manji is considerably the worst. 

 

Edited 17 March, 2022 by Dman

[Plastic]

47 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

One for debate....  Are the far right (in Ukraine) still bad or are they now good?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60767664

Some serious cognitive dissonance with this one  

It’s a legitimate question. Some discussion here…

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/ncna1290946

[whelk]

Elite fucking Russian military 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/politics/russia-troop-deaths.html
 

 

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Here he talks about ‘Cleansing’ the nation of traitors. I’m sure many already do, but I doubt they’ll speak up due to fear of what will happen. 

Yet Putin isn’t the problem, it’s those (democratically appointed) pesky Ukrainian Nazi’s fault!! 
 

there has been some dreadful takes on this forum, but that nonsense from Manji is considerably the worst. 

 

These are not the words of a sane, rational man. They are the words of a genocidal psychopath.

I can't get my head round how my otherwise intelligent, Ukraine-born, Russian sister in law actually supports this nutter.

Needless to say, we're not close.

 

[AlexLaw76]

 

[farawaysaint]

11 hours ago, whelk said:

Elite fucking Russian military 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/16/us/politics/russia-troop-deaths.html
 

 

The true story is even better. Russia invested heavily in their own secure encrypted military communication system.

On day 1 of the invasion they destroyed all cell towers they could to disrupt civilian communication. Guess what infrastructure their encrypted communication system uses…

[AlexLaw76]

 

[moonraker]

On 24/02/2022 at 15:58, AlexLaw76 said:

 

But Russia make most of their own capability.  They do not go for the most technological sophisticated jets/ships/tanks

With their 'only a couple more then we do', they have something like 10x the amount of fighter jets than us.  Their land forces are extremely formidable, a force that can easily out-gun ours (that was a reason for the reduction in our artillery capability as it would be over in minutes against that lot), and their Navy is pretty big.

They have developed some insane weapons that would bring havoc to any enemy.

Their activities below the threshold of war are well practiced.  They are it all the time.

Reading through earlier posts the level of awe afforded the Russian military is proving to be somewhat misplaced.  This ‘insightful’ piece from one of our resident military experts has certainly not played well.

[egg]

6 minutes ago, moonraker said:

Reading through earlier posts the level of awe afforded the Russian military is proving to be somewhat misplaced.  This ‘insightful’ piece from one of our resident military experts has certainly not played well.

I think it's necessary to distinguish between their military muscle and their military acumen. It's obvious from the damage they've caused all over Ukraine that they have tremendous military power, but their apparent lack of progress perhaps demonstrates a lack of tactical savvy. With that said, it is easy to forget though that Ukraine is a massive country - mainland Europe's largest - and nobody could realistically have expected Russia to have swallowed it up in this time. 

[AlexLaw76]

21 minutes ago, moonraker said:

Reading through earlier posts the level of awe afforded the Russian military is proving to be somewhat misplaced.  This ‘insightful’ piece from one of our resident military experts has certainly not played well.

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

You signing up to face that?

As said previously, it took the mighty USA, leading the Coalition of the Willing, 3 weeks to control Baghdad and a month to control Iraq. 

That was with a greatest conventional aerial bombardment in history, and facing at enemy firing at them (us) from the back of a Toyota.

 

Edited 17 March, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[Lighthouse]

If you take wiki figures as roughly accurate and divide a country's military spending by it's geographical area you get:

UK - 244

Germany - 159

France - 82

USA - 79

Russia - 3

The figures are in thousands of USD per square km. It's a crude metric but it does highlight one particular issue. Russia's military is far more dispersed generally than any NATO country. They may have a lot of conscripts, hardware and infrastructure but a lot of it is tied up elsewhere. A radar station in Vladivostok, an airfield in Siberia, a missile defense system in Murmansk and a Submarine off Sakhalin Island are of zero use in a European deployment.

[aintforever]

16 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

They haven’t though have they, they’ve flattened some cities in the East which was supposed to be the Russian friendly parts. Kiev is still getting visits from foreign heads of state.

It’s not exactly a great military achievement to blow up some high-raised flats, looks like a bit of a shambles to me. NATO would make mincemeat of the Russian conventional forces from this showing.

[egg]

13 minutes ago, aintforever said:

They haven’t though have they, they’ve flattened some cities in the East which was supposed to be the Russian friendly parts. Kiev is still getting visits from foreign heads of state.

It’s not exactly a great military achievement to blow up some high-raised flats, looks like a bit of a shambles to me. NATO would make mincemeat of the Russian conventional forces from this showing.

If Nato were satisfied that it'd be a conventional scrap, there'd have been a no fly zone by now. 

[Lighthouse]

16 minutes ago, egg said:

If Nato were satisfied that it'd be a conventional scrap, there'd have been a no fly zone by now. 

I disagree, I think there's just no desire for any kind of war with Russia and nor does there need to be. A NFZ doesn't really change the picture that much in Ukraine and will make other things worse.

[moonraker]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

You signing up to face that?

As said previously, it took the mighty USA, leading the Coalition of the Willing, 3 weeks to control Baghdad and a month to control Iraq. 

That was with a greatest conventional aerial bombardment in history, and facing at enemy firing at them (us) from the back of a Toyota.

 

So do you stand by your statement “Their land forces are extremely formidable”?

[egg]

18 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I disagree, I think there's just no desire for any kind of war with Russia and nor does there need to be. A NFZ doesn't really change the picture that much in Ukraine and will make other things worse.

A NFZ would massively change the picture on the ground but it won't happen, that much is clear. 

It won't happen primarily because Nato fear that any scrap won't be conventional. Indeed, if the Russian military was as useless some make out, surely there's nothing for Nato or the west to fear? 

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

A NFZ would massively change the picture on the ground but it won't happen, that much is clear. 

It won't happen primarily because Nato fear that any scrap won't be conventional. Indeed, if the Russian military was as useless some make out, surely there's nothing for Nato or the west to fear? 

Firstly there's the needless loss of NATO lives in a conflict which isn't really anything to do with us, despite Putin's assertions. Secondly there's the massive logistical nightmare of having to defend a front from Estonia down to the Bosphorus. Thirdly there's threat of him lashing out at civilians in NATO countries. He could launch conventional weapons at populated areas or even shoot down a commercial airliner.

[kyle04]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

You signing up to face that?

As said previously, it took the mighty USA, leading the Coalition of the Willing, 3 weeks to control Baghdad and a month to control Iraq. 

That was with a greatest conventional aerial bombardment in history, and facing at enemy firing at them (us) from the back of a Toyota.

 

The US tactics in Iraq were better planned though, and the bombing was largely strategic precision strikes. Yes, many civillians were killed, they always are and always will be, but the aim was to render the country's military impotent and limit casualties to a minimum. A month to control a country the size of Iraq, I think thats quite an achievement. What the Russians are doing now is indescriminent shelling, the only aim is to literally flatten cities. The tactic is barbaric and archaic, the Ukrainian soldiers are not going to emerge en masse from the rubble with their hands up. The devastation is plain for all to see, and yet Russia still denies what they have done. They have lost all credibility in the world.

The peace negotiations I don't think will get too far. Putin has demanded that Ukraine not join NATO (more or less accepted), will recognize Crimea as Russian land (disputed), recognize the Donbas as Russian (no chance), no further arms to be imported from the west (unlikely). I can't see a way out for Putin, his army is being gradually decimated by a force with little air power, no navy, a modest artillery, hand held launchers and a handful of lightweight drones.  My advice to anyone is if you spill a Ukrainians pint, just smile and buy him another one.

 

[Yozzman]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

A NFZ would massively change the picture on the ground but it won't happen, that much is clear. 

It won't happen primarily because Nato fear that any scrap won't be conventional. Indeed, if the Russian military was as useless some make out, surely there's nothing for Nato or the west to fear? 

Other than dirty great pile of nukes.

[Lighthouse]

These P&O guys seem a feisty bunch, any chance we can send them off to beef up the Ukrainian navy off Odessa?

[moonraker]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

They have pretty much flattened the country. 

You signing up to face that?

As said previously, it took the mighty USA, leading the Coalition of the Willing, 3 weeks to control Baghdad and a month to control Iraq. 

That was with a greatest conventional aerial bombardment in history, and facing at enemy firing at them (us) from the back of a Toyota.

 

The US and it’s allies lost far less soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over a 20 year period than Russia has almost certainly lost in 3 weeks in Ukraine.  The west way of waging war, is as I have said before, designed to minimise casualties time is secondary.   To try and compare the performance of the 2 as somehow comparable shows a deep lack of understanding of military doctrine and capability.

[egg]

9 minutes ago, Yozzman said:

Other than dirty great pile of nukes.

Indeed. If a scrap between Nato and Russia won't be conventional,  pointing out how shit his conventional army would be in a such a scrap, is a pointless point.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, moonraker said:

Reading through earlier posts the level of awe afforded the Russian military is proving to be somewhat misplaced.  This ‘insightful’ piece from one of our resident military experts has certainly not played well.

I posted a while back to hypo about thread needing bumping at some point to see all the earlier bs Russian worship was just that. Still going with some I see. Genuinely have no idea where these muppets get their analysis

[moonraker]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

I posted a while back to hypo about thread needing bumping at some point to see all the earlier bs Russian worship was just that. Still going with some I see. Genuinely have no idea where these muppets get their analysis

Its not analysis, its is mainly  a case of a little knowledge is dangerous and what ifs based on more what ifs.  The same "commentators"  are also often brilliant at posting diametrically opposite opinions on the same subject in the space of a few days.  On one level it is amusing but on a more serious level leaving their ill informed,  uneducated self-important rhetoric to go unchallenged just emboldens them.  

[egg]

19 minutes ago, moonraker said:

Its not analysis, its is mainly  a case of a little knowledge is dangerous and what ifs based on more what ifs.  The same "commentators"  are also often brilliant at posting diametrically opposite opinions on the same subject in the space of a few days.  On one level it is amusing but on a more serious level leaving their ill informed,  uneducated self-important rhetoric to go unchallenged just emboldens them.  

I'm not sure that this is a subject where it helps to rubbish other people's views and give the message that you think that you're smarter than the average bear. It's a bloody serious issue and there's nowt wrong with people have differing views. 

[moonraker]

1 hour ago, egg said:

I'm not sure that this is a subject where it helps to rubbish other people's views and give the message that you think that you're smarter than the average bear. It's a bloody serious issue and there's nowt wrong with people have differing views. 

Fair comment, I may have been a bit harsh but sometimes BS irks.  It is a serious issue and perhaps demands a little serious thought and understanding.

Edited 18 March, 2022 by moonraker

[whelk]

Would be lovely to think this is end of days but won’t get hopes up. Russian army is looking pretty shit though

 

 

[whelk]

6 hours ago, egg said:

I'm not sure that this is a subject where it helps to rubbish other people's views and give the message that you think that you're smarter than the average bear. It's a bloody serious issue and there's nowt wrong with people have differing views. 

It’s Saintweb mate. Opinions are always polarised. It’s like happy clappers and the ‘ ‘this is the season we do down’  lot and the ensuing smugness.

 

[egg]

12 minutes ago, whelk said:

It’s Saintweb mate. Opinions are always polarised. It’s like happy clappers and the ‘ ‘this is the season we do down’  lot and the ensuing smugness.

 

Yep, but there's a world of difference between thinking Broja will never amount to anything / be the next Pele, and having a contrary view on this situation. The bottom line is people all see it differently, but having a different view to others does not amount to a lack of "serious thought and understanding" as per moonraker or make someone a "muppet" as per you. 

[badgerx16]

On 17/03/2022 at 06:40, Weston Super Saint said:

One for debate....  Are the far right (in Ukraine) still bad or are they now good?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60767664

Some serious cognitive dissonance with this one  

At the moment they are fighting the Russians. That is the only measure that matters.

[Turkish]

Shevchenko on GMB, they keep perstering him about is how he feels about Chelsea fans signing about Abramovich FFS

[AlexLaw76]

These lot knew it was coming...

 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

At the moment they are fighting the Russians. That is the only measure that matters.

As Max Hastings said on QT last night, it is a similar situation that we found ourselves in during WW2. Churchill knew we couldn’t fight two wars at once so sided with Stalin against Hitler. It is a no brainer to deal with the Russian invasion first with all the resources they have available and worry about the rest later.

[Millbrook Saint]

27 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

As Max Hastings said on QT last night, it is a similar situation that we found ourselves in during WW2. Churchill knew we couldn’t fight two wars at once so sided with Stalin against Hitler. It is a no brainer to deal with the Russian invasion first with all the resources they have available and worry about the rest later.

I agree with this, Zelenskyy is having to use anyone who can fight at the moment but at heart he is a democrat and reformer and was trying to stop the corruption, after this war is over and if he survives, he will have the whole nation behind him and will find it easier to root out the far right and corruption, the whole country will have a common enemy in Russia and I'd like to think the West will help rebuild the country and they can be welcomed in to the fold

[whelk]

6 hours ago, egg said:

Yep, but there's a world of difference between thinking Broja will never amount to anything / be the next Pele, and having a contrary view on this situation. The bottom line is people all see it differently, but having a different view to others does not amount to a lack of "serious thought and understanding" as per moonraker or make someone a "muppet" as per you. 

Talk shit get called a muppet. Don’t see anything wrong with that

[buctootim]

 

Im not really one for corporate name and shame campaigns. But these companies are hoovering up new business and profit from companies who have done the right thing and left the Russian market.

 

 

Edited 18 March, 2022 by buctootim

[buctootim]

5 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

At the moment they are fighting the Russians. That is the only measure that matters.

 

The Azov battalion used to be right wing nationalist self governed private army that a very militarily weak Ukrainian government had to lean on during the Russian invasion of 2014. Since then they have been transformed brought under the control of the Government, the nationalism diluted by many of the original members dying in Donbass and transferring in regular recruits. It has very little in common with the battalion of 2014

[farawaysaint]

21 minutes ago, buctootim said:

 

The Azov battalion used to be right wing nationalist self governed private army that a very militarily weak Ukrainian government had to lean on during the Russian invasion of 2014. Since then they have been transformed brought under the control of the Government, the nationalism diluted by many of the original members dying in Donbass and transferring in regular recruits. It has very little in common with the battalion of 2014

True to an extent… supposedly they are only comprised of about 10% far right wingers now which is still erm not great. As far as I am aware they still use neo nazi symbolism extensively in their “branding” (before someone calls me out apologies I have no idea of the correct military terminology.)

[skintsaint]

9 minutes ago, farawaysaint said:

supposedly they are only comprised of about 10% far right wingers now which is still erm not great

[egg]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Talk shit get called a muppet. Don’t see anything wrong with that

Someone  having differing view ain't them talking shit. It may just be them pointing out that you're talking shite.

You've consistently said that the Russian army aren't doing anything. That's bollox - 90% of Muriopol is smashed up. Sure, they may be shit tactically, but it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that they're a powerful force causing huge damage. Someone pointing that ain't a muppet or talking shit.

The bottom line is this is a proper subject. On the whole the discussion has been sensible and it should stay that way. Have a bit of respect for differing opinions.

[Johnny Bognor]

17 hours ago, moonraker said:

The US and it’s allies lost far less soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over a 20 year period than Russia has almost certainly lost in 3 weeks in Ukraine.  The west way of waging war, is as I have said before, designed to minimise casualties time is secondary.   To try and compare the performance of the 2 as somehow comparable shows a deep lack of understanding of military doctrine and capability.

Russia's losses in three weeks are greater than all military deaths in conflict since WW2

1945 to 2021 = Over this 74-year period there have been a total of 7,187 British military deaths in conflict

And this covers the following wars:

• Malayan Emergency
• Anglo Egyptian War
• Korean War
• Northern Ireland
• Falklands War
• Gulf War
• Bosnia War
• Kosovo War
• Iraq War
• Afghanistan

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

The mad fucker has definitely gone 'all-in'!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60793319

Quote

Eight years after Russian troops seized Ukraine's southern region of Crimea, the event is being celebrated with flag-waving crowds in Moscow's Luzhniki stadium and special lessons in schools.

 

[whelk]

3 hours ago, egg said:

Someone  having differing view ain't them talking shit. It may just be them pointing out that you're talking shite.

You've consistently said that the Russian army aren't doing anything. That's bollox - 90% of Muriopol is smashed up. Sure, they may be shit tactically, but it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that they're a powerful force causing huge damage. Someone pointing that ain't a muppet or talking shit.

The bottom line is this is a proper subject. On the whole the discussion has been sensible and it should stay that way. Have a bit of respect for differing opinions.

Try going back and read what was posted. Riddled with people like you posting about sanctions being worthless, NATO scared, inevitable invasion once breezed through Ukraine and NATO wouldn’t respond. Russian elite soldiers with best weapons would walk over the west’s slimmed down military. Like I said horseshit. No one was saying they wouldn’t bombard cities. That is a world of difference from controlling them. 

[moonraker]

25 minutes ago, whelk said:

Try going back and read what was posted. Riddled with people like you posting about sanctions being worthless, NATO scared, inevitable invasion once breezed through Ukraine and NATO wouldn’t respond. Russian elite soldiers with best weapons would walk over the west’s slimmed down military. Like I said horseshit. No one was saying they wouldn’t bombard cities. That is a world of difference from controlling them. 

Exactly, my point was not rubbishing opinions but challenging unfounded claims and statements not simple opinions.

[bpsaint]

21 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Firstly there's the needless loss of NATO lives in a conflict which isn't really anything to do with us, despite Putin's assertions. Secondly there's the massive logistical nightmare of having to defend a front from Estonia down to the Bosphorus. Thirdly there's threat of him lashing out at civilians in NATO countries. He could launch conventional weapons at populated areas or even shoot down a commercial airliner.

The little cunt has already got away with that before.

[farawaysaint]

53 minutes ago, whelk said:

Try going back and read what was posted. Riddled with people like you posting about sanctions being worthless, NATO scared, inevitable invasion once breezed through Ukraine and NATO wouldn’t respond. Russian elite soldiers with best weapons would walk over the west’s slimmed down military. Like I said horseshit. No one was saying they wouldn’t bombard cities. That is a world of difference from controlling them. 

Ukraine actually announced they counter attacked and retook 3 cities today. The Russians are definitely not having an easy job of it.

Also claims that Russians are paying Syrians and Hezbollah (yes that one) to come fight in Ukraine. 

[badgerx16]

 

[kyle04]

51 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The mad fucker has definitely gone 'all-in'!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60793319

 

"According to a memo sent to schools by the education ministry, lessons for children in Years 6-8 (12-15 year-olds) should focus on "heroes of our time... to help form a stable and grounded understanding of the feeling of patriotism".

Pupils were to be asked to sit in a circle to hear an explanation of how ideas of "duty, dignity and patriotism are inextricably linked with the concepts of exploits and heroism". Teachers would then show a video to show that people with military roles were more likely to become heroes than anyone else."

It makes you want to vomit, put thousands of poor young bastards in a uniform and trick them into joining a war they neither want nor understand, only to die horribly, freezing and half starved, betrayed by Putins egomania and their generals ineptitude. That's your heroes Russia.