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whelk

By whelk,
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Referendum on Moscow to officially become territory of Wales  

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  1. 1. Referendum on Moscow to officially become territory of Wales

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AlexLaw76

AlexLaw76

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, aintforever said:

Not sure what point you are trying to make. My point was nothing to do with suiting an audience, more that if Russia wanted to invade they would have just gone ahead and done it, it makes no sense giving Ukraine time to prepare and fly in shit loads of anti-tank missiles etc.

You think Ukraine are just preparing now, or over the last few weeks? 

You really think that?

I guess face masks, restrictions and party gate have swamped the news over the last few years 

Edited by AlexLaw76
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egg

egg

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Jessinkalasin said:

I am a bit perplexed here guys. First a question if I may. Who was right and who wrong in regards to the Cuban missile crisis?

I am sure the self professed brainiacs here will say I am over simplifying, but I am not. The fact is clear. Russia does not want the Ukraine joining NATO and then having nuclear missiles pointed at them so close, just as the USA did not want Russian missiles right on their doorstep in the 60's. 

So, why is it Russia is always seen as the bad guys when so far as I can see, the USA is and always has been far worse in just about every way. I wonder, if trump was still in charge how many of you would change your tune towards the USA foreign policy?

 

Russia are seen as the bad guys because they aren't "on our side". North Korea get the same press when in reality they want a Nuke with intercontinental ability to deter the west, whereas the west don't want them having one so they can keep them on a leash. The same applies to Iran.

The public have been allowed to believe for over 60 years that Russia would use a Nuke but they haven't (unlike the US of course) and it's obvious that they never would or they'd be obliterated. North Korea and Iran know they're fate if they ever used one, but they know their potential fate if they don't have the deterrent and are understandably anxious as their neighbours have them and are alllies of the US.

Mutual nuclear deterrent had made for a more peaceful world between the big boys, and more recently between Pakistan and India. 

The above all said, on this one it's about Russia/Putin wanting to control Ukraine and stamp its authority. I agree with Weston that from a security point of view this makes no sense, but it does from a use of land (gas pipe) perspective, and definitely for Putin to show strength to his public. 

I don't think it'll go off, and the west will crumble on Ukraine not joining nato. Letting them in gives obligations that are  potential WW3 risks and nobody wants that. 

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

West has been humiliated by Russia as troops are returning the their basis they are saying.

What have the Russians gained for the West to be 'humiliated'?

Plus if you read that on the BBC, what about this...

" Russia says it is pulling back some of its troops from near Ukraine after a build-up prompted fears of an invasion.

The defence ministry said that large-scale drills continued but that some units were returning to their bases.

It did not say how many are leaving and it is not yet clear if it will de-escalate tensions."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60386141

Some troops is not all troops and it still isn't clear what they are doing.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

What have the Russians gained for the West to be 'humiliated'?

Plus if you read that on the BBC, what about this...

" Russia says it is pulling back some of its troops from near Ukraine after a build-up prompted fears of an invasion.

The defence ministry said that large-scale drills continued but that some units were returning to their bases.

It did not say how many are leaving and it is not yet clear if it will de-escalate tensions."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60386141

Some troops is not all troops and it still isn't clear what they are doing.

Im just repeating what was said in the report i read you plum. Ukraine live updates: 'Humiliated and destroyed' - Russia taunts West as it claims some troops are pulling back from border | World News | Sky News

Direct your question at Sky.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
Just now, Turkish said:

Im just repeating what was said in the report i read you plum. Ukraine live updates: 'Humiliated and destroyed' - Russia taunts West as it claims some troops are pulling back from border | World News | Sky News

Direct your question at Sky.

Oh dear Turkish 🙄

Both the Sky and BBC reports says 'some troops', not all troops and that it is unclear what is going on. You are the one who has jumped to the conclusion it is over by saying the West has been 'humiliated'. It is you who made the claim the West were humiliated, so why can't you answer why you think some troops leaving the border equals humiliation?

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Oh dear Turkish 🙄

Both the Sky and BBC reports says 'some troops', not all troops and that it is unclear what is going on. You are the one who has jumped to the conclusion it is over by saying the West has been 'humiliated'. It is you who made the claim the West were humiliated, so why can't you answer why you think some troops leaving the border equals humiliation?

Having trouble reading today? 

Ukraine live updates: 'Humiliated and destroyed' - Russia taunts West as it claims some troops are pulling back from border

 

I also didn't make a claim, i ended my orginal post by "they are saying"

 

oh dear MLG, fucked this right up haven't you :lol: 

 

 

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
Just now, Matthew Le God said:

Oh dear Turkish 🙄

Both the Sky and BBC reports says 'some troops', not all troops and that it is unclear what is going on. You are the one who has jumped to the conclusion it is over by saying the West has been 'humiliated'. It is you who made the claim the West were humiliated, so why can't you answer why you think some troops leaving the border equals humiliation?

It is the Russians who are saying the West has been 'humiliated'. The SKY report, repeated by Turkish, quotes a Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman. The Russians are saying that those troops who have finished their training are returning to their permanent barracks, others will follow once their exercises have concluded. According to the Russians the West, driven by paranoia, have grossly over-reacted.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

apart from the bit at the end where i said "they are saying" you mean??!! :lol: 

"West has been humiliated by Russia as troops are returning the their basis they are saying."

The way that sentence is constructed could be read as everything before the 'as' was your opinion and the reason for your opinion was everything after the 'as'. It is also extremely vague as states source to be 'they'.

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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
Just now, Matthew Le God said:

"West has been humiliated by Russia as troops are returning the their basis they are saying."

The way that sentence is contracted could be read as everything before the 'as' was your opinion and the reason for your opinion was everything after the 'as'. It is also extremely vague as states source to be 'they'.

Badger seemed to understand without any problems, just you with the reading difficulties as usual.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Jessinkalasin said:

I am a bit perplexed here guys. First a question if I may. Who was right and who wrong in regards to the Cuban missile crisis?

I am sure the self professed brainiacs here will say I am over simplifying, but I am not. The fact is clear. Russia does not want the Ukraine joining NATO and then having nuclear missiles pointed at them so close, just as the USA did not want Russian missiles right on their doorstep in the 60's. 

So, why is it Russia is always seen as the bad guys when so far as I can see, the USA is and always has been far worse in just about every way. I wonder, if trump was still in charge how many of you would change your tune towards the USA foreign policy?

 

You think every country has the right to not have any potentially hostile neighbours on its borders? How doe that work out for anybody, let alone the largest country in the world stretching across 8 time zones? You think China doesn't have any nukes on its border with Russia? You think there arent nukes in Kaliningrad or St Petersburg - less than 400 miles from Berlin, Warsaw, Stockholm, Prague, Vienna, Kyiv, Copenhagen and Helsinki?   

 

  

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

I think Putin is just enjoying being the focus of attention and playing puppet master.

I'm sure Putin thinks he has won - he got some attention and lots of important people ran around trying to deal with problem he had created. In reality though he has simply shot himself in the foot again. He's come out looking like a big man in his eyes and in the process proved Russia is an unreliable supplier of gas, an unstable location to invest money into and a military threat requiring more defence spending 

His policies have seen Russia continue to decline even as the oil and gas money pays for another shiny mercedes and some new granite paving in Moscow.

No-one wants to have a baby in Russia - which is the surest sign of how happy people are and their confidence in the future, the demographics are horrendous. Even former PM Medvedev described the economy as primitive and corrupt. Once the price of oil % gas starts to decline in 10 years or so they are absolutely screwed - there is almost nothing else.  30 years ago Ukraine was broadly pro Russia, now even the ethnic Russians cant stand Russia because of Putins policies towards them, ditto Georgia. Russia are literally friendless apart from a few client states like Belarus and Kazakhstan whose authoritarian leaders rely on Russian miltary support to keep them in power  

 

Edited by buctootim
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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mystic Force said:

If any of you have read Sun Tzu you will know that to win a war with out fighting is the ultimate goal. So if Ukraine stay intact without conflict then the west has prevailed, not lost.

Only if the threat of invasion was actually there. The Russians will have wargamed the situation many times, and evaluated the potential Western response and consequences. Personally I think that the whole thing has predominantly been constructed for the Russian domestic audience to bolster flagging support for Putin. And of course, Ukraine is not intact; the Crimea has been annexed by Russia, and there is still war in Donbas snd Luhansk.

Edited by badgerx16
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Turkish

Turkish

Posted
Posted
56 minutes ago, Mystic Force said:

If any of you have read Sun Tzu you will know that to win a war with out fighting is the ultimate goal. So if Ukraine stay intact without conflict then the west has prevailed, not lost.

Or maybe Putin is following Sun Tzu advice to appear strong when you are weak and weak when you are strong.......

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The only winner here is the Climate.

If war had erupted, we would have had to build more wind farms, and pay an extra 1% in tax to make the climate better

You're years out of date Jamie (who knew??).  Offshore wind is generating electricity at 5p per kw/h but it is charged to consumers at the price of the most expensive generator - nuclear, currently around 24 per kw/h. Its the regulation system which is broke. not renewables.

  https://theconversation.com/renewables-are-cheaper-than-ever-so-why-are-household-energy-bills-only-going-up-174795

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Baird of the land

Baird of the land

Posted
Posted

Seems to me lots of political gaming going on from both sides. Seemed to me invasion was always unlikely but equally the fact there was macho posturing from both sides elevates the risk. I don’t like Putin but I can see why russia would have political concerns over nato as well as the Ukrainian situation. Hopefully the saner minds in Europe can prevail and navigate a politically acceptable way out of this tit for tat escalation.

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Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60407010

Quote

Russia's claim that it is moving troops away from the border with Ukraine is "false", according to a senior US official, who added that 7,000 extra troops have arrived in recent days.

How does a senior US official know this?  Does this mean Russia has lost its ability to sneak around the globe and invade countries completely unnoticed?

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Saint in Paradise

Saint in Paradise

Posted
Posted (edited)

To add a small amount of humour I post this picture that was on Imgur.com

According to the OP "Putin loves a bit of color". However it has now been alleged that:-

Russia today dramatically upped its price for de-escalating the crisis in Ukraine - demanding that America withdraw all troops and weapons from central and eastern Europe and the Baltics as a precursor to talks while kicking the deputy U.S. ambassador out of Moscow.

spacer.png

Edited by Saint in Paradise
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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said:

Multiple explosions heard in Donetsk, separatist leader in eastern Ukraine mobilising their military...sounds like it's actually starting.

I can't see it not happening. Saddening to think how many innocent Ukrainians are about to die because of some crackpot fantasist and his Soviet delusions. I just hope we go in hard with the economic sanctions. 

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

 I just hope we go in hard with the economic sanctions. 

I guess that’s the problem, Putin knows NATO doesn’t have the balls to actually do anything, the worst we can threat is sanctions. Might as well threaten him with a strongly worded letter.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

I can't see it not happening. Saddening to think how many innocent Ukrainians are about to die because of some crackpot fantasist and his Soviet delusions. I just hope we go in hard with the economic sanctions. 

 

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

I guess that’s the problem, Putin knows NATO doesn’t have the balls to actually do anything, the worst we can threat is sanctions. Might as well threaten him with a strongly worded letter.

I suppose it all depends on whether Europe needs Russisn gas more than Russia needs the money we pay for it. There was mention on Newsnight last week that Russia has been building it's financial reserves over the last few years, and now has one of the the largest reserves in the World.

Edited by badgerx16
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whelk

whelk

Posted
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Posted
16 hours ago, aintforever said:

I guess that’s the problem, Putin knows NATO doesn’t have the balls to actually do anything, the worst we can threat is sanctions. Might as well threaten him with a strongly worded letter.

Very naive to think sanctions can’t severely f**k them 

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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

I suppose it all depends on whether Europe needs Russisn gas more than Russia needs the money we pay for it. There was mention on Newsnight last week that Russia has been building it's financial reserves over the last few years, and now has one of the the largest reserves in the World.

That’s only of limited use if you only have access to money within Russia and can only spend it there and in sympathising countries. If, the US and EU banned all exports to Russia, for example, similar to the situation with Iran; the oligarchs are going to be none too impressed. 

6 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ukrainians are hard bastards too so unless they have Nazi style approach to dealing with resistance can’t see it being anything but hugely messy for them.

The ladies there are also extremely nice. I don’t know if we will be taking in refugees if Russia invades but I’m a very humanitarian kinda guy.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

That’s only of limited use if you only have access to money within Russia and can only spend it there and in sympathising countries. If, the US and EU banned all exports to Russia, for example, similar to the situation with Iran; the oligarchs are going to be none too impressed. 

The ladies there are also extremely nice. I don’t know if we will be taking in refugees if Russia invades but I’m a very humanitarian kinda guy.

When I was working in Kyiv I dated a woman who was an internal refugee from Donetsk. The perfect house guest.  

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Johnny Bognor

Johnny Bognor

Posted
Posted
On 20/02/2022 at 10:44, whelk said:

Ukrainians are hard bastards too so unless they have Nazi style approach to dealing with resistance can’t see it being anything but hugely messy for them.

 

Indeed. The Mayor of Kyiv being none other than Wladimir Klitschko (Former world Heavyweight champion)

I'd like to see a one-onone, the mayor of Kyiv vs the Russian President

Winner-takes-all

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