Weston Super Saint Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 да Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pppr719rlo Three things : 1) yes its sad civilians are again caught in the middle, but why be on the beach in an active warzone? 2) Hitting civilians is barbaric says Russia....pot kettle black somewhat. 3) Supply countries that are anti-US with weapons, sure they already do that already. Edited June 24 by skintsaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 hour ago, skintsaint said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6pppr719rlo Three things : 1) yes its sad civilians are again caught in the middle, but why be on the beach in an active warzone? 2) Hitting civilians is barbaric says Russia....pot kettle black somewhat. 3) Supply countries that are anti-US with weapons, sure they already do that already. 1) If they hadn't tried to intercept the missiles they would have hit the targets they were aimed at - no casualties on the beach. 2) Russia is deliberately targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. 3) Do they think threatening the US is going to make them back down ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, badgerx16 said: 1) If they hadn't tried to intercept the missiles they would have hit the targets they were aimed at - no casualties on the beach. 2) Russia is deliberately targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. 3) Do they think threatening the US is going to make them back down ? They did. The only debris found on the beach was from a Russian Tor air defence missile which clearly missed its target and fell on the beach. Not a single cluster bomb or ATACAMS part found. Saying "hey we failed to stop the attack on our super important satellite operations station but we did kill our own people on the beach" is not a good look, hence the charade and blame. Edited June 24 by buctootim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/27/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/ Won't be long before they are turned into more cannon fodder I expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 3 minutes ago, skintsaint said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/27/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/ Won't be long before they are turned into more cannon fodder I expect. Probably no more reliable than their artillery shells. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 5 minutes ago, skintsaint said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/27/ukraine-russia-war-latest-news9/ Won't be long before they are turned into more cannon fodder I expect. Odd. You'd imagine that Russia has builders and engineers who could do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted June 27 Share Posted June 27 Just now, egg said: Odd. You'd imagine that Russia has builders and engineers who could do the job. They are all dead and the ones good at it still in Moscow/St Petersburg etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 2 Share Posted July 2 From videos released by the Ukrainian forces, it looks like Russia has started recruiting storm troops from female prisons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Grim… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80xjne8ryxo.amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 1 hour ago, sadoldgit said: Grim… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c80xjne8ryxo.amp The videos online of these assaults are just staggering in terms of how archaic Russian assaults are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 4 minutes ago, skintsaint said: The videos online of these assaults are just staggering in terms of how archaic Russian assaults are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, skintsaint said: The videos online of these assaults are just staggering in terms of how archaic Russian assaults are. It reminds of the tactics of the Chinese troops in the Korean War where they just kept throwing numbers at the enemy. It’s just attrition and something that should have disappeared with the 20th century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 2 hours ago, skintsaint said: The videos online of these assaults are just staggering in terms of how archaic Russian assaults are. Saw an analysis which estimated the Russians are losing (dead and seriously injured) 300 soldiers for every sq km captured. So they'd lose 186 million soldiers to grab the whole of Ukraine... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Challenger Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Hope was that these grim statistics would have turned heads amongst the Russian population . Sad truth is, it appears not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 Just now, Challenger said: Hope was that these grim statistics would have turned heads amongst the Russian population . Sad truth is, it appears not. Most of them don't know. The state TV and press won't give figures any where near the true total, and I suspect they are still recruiting disproportionately from the eastern provinces, such as Dagestan. The population of the major European cities will still be insulated from the worst of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Challenger Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 34 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Most of them don't know. The state TV and press won't give figures any where near the true total, and I suspect they are still recruiting disproportionately from the eastern provinces, such as Dagestan. The population of the major European cities will still be insulated from the worst of the war. I've no reason to argue with your comments, but I find it hard to believe in this day and age that the average western Russian is oblivious to what's going on. Still not to worry, Trump says he's going to sort it all out soon.😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 4 Share Posted July 4 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Challenger said: I've no reason to argue with your comments, but I find it hard to believe in this day and age that the average western Russian is oblivious to what's going on. Still not to worry, Trump says he's going to sort it all out soon.😀 At the start of June Putin spoke publicly about the war, and said that Russia was losing 1 soldier for every 5 Ukraine was losing. Official casualty numbers have only been issued by the Kremlin twice since the SMO kicked off, and nothing for over a year. However, you would think that increasing numbers of people are becoming aware of the reality as more and more wounded and maimed find their way back to hospitals away from the front. Russians are traditionally reticent to question what the State tells them. Edited July 4 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Meanwhile… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo.amp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, sadoldgit said: Meanwhile… https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo.amp Russia are claiming it was debris from a Ukrainian air defence missile but there is clear video online showing the arrival of a cruise missile. https://packaged-media.redd.it/4luuztaxlabd1/pb/m2-res_1080p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1720461600&s=42791a574de9bfc42a6afea972399bc20c08e550#t=0 Edited July 8 by buctootim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Even among the horrific acts Russia have been carrying out, this one… No words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Thought Russia ran out of missiles? This won’t stop. Nope. Not until a deal is reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Thought Russia ran out of missiles? This won’t stop. Nope. Not until a deal is reached. There’s absolutely no way Russia can be allowed to be seen to gain anything from this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Thought Russia ran out of missiles? This won’t stop. Nope. Not until a deal is reached. Still banging that drum eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: There’s absolutely no way Russia can be allowed to be seen to gain anything from this. Maybe, but where is the line when we have to go in…. For what? Some corrupt country miles from here, who are not part of NATO or any other significant alliance? what do the government stop spending on to pay for it? Ready for another Afghanistan and the financial costs that go with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said: Maybe, but where is the line when we have to go in…. For what? Some corrupt country miles from here, who are not part of NATO or any other significant alliance? what do the government stop spending on to pay for it? Ready for another Afghanistan and the financial costs that go with it? Appeasement worked so well on the past…oh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Maybe, but where is the line when we have to go in…. For what? Some corrupt country miles from here, who are not part of NATO or any other significant alliance? what do the government stop spending on to pay for it? Ready for another Afghanistan and the financial costs that go with it? i'm feeling the love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 7 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: There’s absolutely no way Russia can be allowed to be seen to gain anything from this. I'm not an expert on these matters, but people who know a lot more than I do about the situation have suggested that this will only end with some form of deal that may involve Russia having Crimea for example. It's a grim reality but I don't see how things aren't solved without some form of deal. What's the alternative? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Just now, sadoldgit said: Appeasement worked so well on the past…oh We are appeasing him ffs. We are sitting back and letting 100,000s of Ukrainians get slaughtered. They ain’t stopping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 If the thinking is that Russia can't be seen to benefit in any way then how does this situation end in that scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, hypochondriac said: If the thinking is that Russia can't be seen to benefit in any way then how does this situation end in that scenario? I don’t want to live in a World where people like Putin can think “Let’s bomb a children’s hospital and they’ll start making concessions to us.” Bearing in mind that anything Russia agrees to is absolutely worthless, there’s absolutely no gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Just now, Jimmy_D said: I don’t want to live in a World where people like Putin can think “Let’s bomb a children’s hospital and they’ll start making concessions to us.” Bearing in mind that anything Russia agrees to is absolutely worthless, there’s absolutely no gain. You live in a world where our western leaders have done exactly that.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 4 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: I don’t want to live in a World where people like Putin can think “Let’s bomb a children’s hospital and they’ll start making concessions to us.” Bearing in mind that anything Russia agrees to is absolutely worthless, there’s absolutely no gain. Neither do I. Sadly the world is imperfect and there are no easy answers. What's the alternative then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Agreements are worthless. All they would mean is Ukraine signing some paper saying they legally agree to what Putin is doing, whilst he carries on has he pleased. Putin wants control of Ukraine and he’ll keep throwing tens of thousands of men into the meat grinder to try and get it. All Ukraine can do is fight, that’s their only option. NATO should be sending in troops to at least the western 2/3 of the country to maintain peace but they’re too scared to do it apparently. The next best thing is to send Ukraine all the weapons and training we can and hope that it’ll be enough. If we show weakness or reluctance on this, there’re many more parts of the former Soviet Union he’ll go after next. Many Russians interviewed think they should go as far west as Berlin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 19 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: If the thinking is that Russia can't be seen to benefit in any way then how does this situation end in that scenario? The real question is what happens next if Russia is seen to benefit from their actions. There are plenty of counties within Putin’s striking distance who are rightly very concerned about what happens next if he gets away with invading Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 25 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: We are appeasing him ffs. We are sitting back and letting 100,000s of Ukrainians get slaughtered. They ain’t stopping. We are providing arms, ammunition and training troops. As I have been told many times when saying Trident is a waste of money, if we send in troops it will trigger WW3. What do you suggest we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 Just now, hypochondriac said: Neither do I. Sadly the world is imperfect and there are no easy answers. What's the alternative then? Ukraine aren’t asking for other country’s soldiers to defend them, they’re asking for as much help as possible to defend themselves. Despite days like today, Russia’s ability to wage war is slowly being degraded. The fact that Russia is even talking about negotiations demonstrates that. (As well as several indications on the ground, not least Russia’s dwindling tank reserve stockpiles, the severe degradation of their anti-air capability ahead of the imminent introduction of F16s, and the increasing reports of Ukraine holding the advantage in drone warfare.) As far as I’m concerned, I’m all for giving Ukraine all the help that it’s possible to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: We are providing arms, ammunition and training troops. As I have been told many times when saying Trident is a waste of money, if we send in troops it will trigger WW3. What do you suggest we do? You’re conflating sending troops into Ukraine with sending troops into Russia. Troops in the large part of Ukraine not occupied would ensure security, not start WW3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said: You’re conflating sending troops into Ukraine with sending troops into Russia. Troops in the large part of Ukraine not occupied would ensure security, not start WW3. I dunno, it would make WW3 a lot more likely. What happens when a Russian missile takes out a load of NATO troops? Edited July 8 by aintforever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, aintforever said: I dunno, it would make WW3 a lot more likely. What happens when a Russian missile takes out a load of NATO troops? You say that like it would just happen. The whole point in them being there is that Russia wouldn’t then attack that area for fear of starting a war on their own doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 17 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: The real question is what happens next if Russia is seen to benefit from their actions. There are plenty of counties within Putin’s striking distance who are rightly very concerned about what happens next if he gets away with invading Ukraine. He hasn't gotten away with anything. He's killed countless thousands of his own people, will be significantly weakened for decades to come and will hopefully be assassinated or something similar. Pragmatic people with a deep knowledge of Russia and Ukraine have already stated that this ends with some sort of deal where Russia can save some sort of face whilst in reality having to climb down from the majority of their aims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 16 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said: Ukraine aren’t asking for other country’s soldiers to defend them, they’re asking for as much help as possible to defend themselves. Despite days like today, Russia’s ability to wage war is slowly being degraded. The fact that Russia is even talking about negotiations demonstrates that. (As well as several indications on the ground, not least Russia’s dwindling tank reserve stockpiles, the severe degradation of their anti-air capability ahead of the imminent introduction of F16s, and the increasing reports of Ukraine holding the advantage in drone warfare.) As far as I’m concerned, I’m all for giving Ukraine all the help that it’s possible to give. OK then. Let's imagine we do what you suggest. So it ends with what? Russia giving back the Donbas and Crimea and retreating back to Moscow? And that's the end of it? Worth remembering history and how punitive sanctions after ww1 greatly contributed to the conditions for ww2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, Lighthouse said: You say that like it would just happen. The whole point in them being there is that Russia wouldn’t then attack that area for fear of starting a war on their own doorstep. It would be a hell of gamble to assume Russia wouldn’t attack. Plus there will always be a risk of a mistake or trigger happy general sparking something. NATO just need to keep it as it is but step up the arms supply to Ukraine IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, hypochondriac said: OK then. Let's imagine we do what you suggest. So it ends with what? Russia giving back the Donbas and Crimea and retreating back to Moscow? And that's the end of it? Worth remembering history and how punitive sanctions after ww1 greatly contributed to the conditions for ww2. What greatly contributed to WW2 was Europe’s most powerful nations sitting around doing nothing except write strongly worded letters, whilst a fanatical dictator seized land from other countries, promised not to do it any more but pretty much did exactly that when he realised everyone was too weak to try and stop him. What’s going on now is the 1938 Anschluss. We’re not talking about punitive sanction on Moscow. In what way is being told to leave a country you’ve invaded and stop bombing hospitals full of children with cancer ‘punitive’? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, hypochondriac said: OK then. Let's imagine we do what you suggest. So it ends with what? Russia giving back the Donbas and Crimea and retreating back to Moscow? And that's the end of it? Worth remembering history and how punitive sanctions after ww1 greatly contributed to the conditions for ww2. If Ukraine can achieve that, Ukraine then joins NATO, NATO gains the most experienced army in the world with combined NATO, Soviet, and drone warfare, and any future attack on Ukraine becomes unfeasible for Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 3 minutes ago, aintforever said: It would be a hell of gamble to assume Russia wouldn’t attack. Plus there will always be a risk of a mistake or trigger happy general sparking something. NATO just need to keep it as it is but step up the arms supply to Ukraine IMO. You can respond to that with small scale retaliation, without escalation. I don’t think it’d ever come to that, you’re underestimating how big of a stretch it would be for Russia to launch an unprovoked attack on a NATO position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 1 minute ago, Lighthouse said: You can respond to that with small scale retaliation, without escalation. I don’t think it’d ever come to that, you’re underestimating how big of a stretch it would be for Russia to launch an unprovoked attack on a NATO position. They wouldn't view NATO troops on Ukrainian soil as not a provocation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: They wouldn't view NATO troops on Ukrainian soil as not a provocation. The only language Russia understands in strength. They can see it however they like, they aren’t going to win a fight with NATO so it’d be absurd starting one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: They wouldn't view NATO troops on Ukrainian soil as not a provocation. Ok for them to whack NK troops in Ukraine though. Putin is a bully who sent these missiles I expect due to the UK/French elections not going his way. I think if Trump fails to get in, Putin knows he won't win this. Hopefully this sick act speeds up more arm supplies to Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 3 minutes ago, skintsaint said: Ok for them to whack NK troops in Ukraine though. Putin is a bully who sent these missiles I expect due to the UK/French elections not going his way. I think if Trump fails to get in, Putin knows he won't win this. Hopefully this sick act speeds up more arm supplies to Ukraine. Who said it was OK? Putin is a tyrant who hopefully gets killed ASAP. Doesn't change the fact that this imo is overshelmingly likely to end with some sort of deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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