Russia

[Jonnyboy]

22 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Putin has a messiah complex, he views himself as restoring the Russian Empire to it's former glory. Vladimir Bukovsky, a Russian dissdent, says that Putin sees the collapse of the Soviet Union as a "Geopolitical catastrophe", ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26769481 ).

To that end, this is merely phase 1;

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/putins-new-ukraine-essay-reflects-imperial-ambitions/

"Putin ends his lengthy treatise by appearing to suggest that Ukrainian statehood itself ultimately depends on Moscow’s consent, declaring, “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”

 

Putin's essay is here;

http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

 

https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2022/03/01/putins-dark-designs-restore-pre-1917-russian-empire

And was this essay written before or after NATO declared it's intention to expand into Ukraine and Georgia? By 2021 it was all window dressing anyway, the West knew fully that Ukraine was a  red line for Russia but crossed it anyway.

[Jimmy_D]

3 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

And was this essay written before or after NATO declared it's intention to expand into Ukraine and Georgia? By 2021 it was all window dressing anyway, the West knew fully that Ukraine was a  red line for Russia but crossed it anyway.

Regardless of the fact that it was not, is not, and will never be up to Russia to dictate which treaties a sovereign country can or cannot join, care to find any source at all for NATO intending to expand to Ukraine before the invasion?

[badgerx16]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Regardless of the fact that it was not, is not, and will never be up to Russia to dictate which treaties a sovereign country can or cannot join, care to find any source at all for NATO intending to expand to Ukraine before the invasion?

There isn't one. He just makes shit up.

[Jonnyboy]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Regardless of the fact that it was not, is not, and will never be up to Russia to dictate which treaties a sovereign country can or cannot join, care to find any source at all for NATO intending to expand to Ukraine before the invasion?

Move on, the decision has been made, your obsession with making the whole world join NATO at the barrel of a gun has caused enough death.

And I thought it well known from the Munich security conference 2008 as.the third tranche of NATO "invitations?"

Anyway, I'm going to read some more posts from this thread in 2022. There's some real gold back there.

 

 

[Jimmy_D]

Just now, Jonnyboy said:

Move on, the decision has been made, your obsession with making the whole world join NATO at the barrel of a gun has caused enough death.

And I thought it well known from the Munich security conference 2008 as.the third tranche of NATO "invitations?"

Anyway, I'm going to read some more posts from this thread in 2022. There's some real gold back there.

 

 

You’re not very good at this whole trolling thing.

[whelk]

7 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

Anyway, I'm going to read some more posts from this thread in 2022

Thought about getting a hobby, playing sport, exercising, getting a girlfriend? Or even revising for those A levels?

[egg]

7 hours ago, Jimmy_D said:

Regardless of the fact that it was not, is not, and will never be up to Russia to dictate which treaties a sovereign country can or cannot join, care to find any source at all for NATO intending to expand to Ukraine before the invasion?

Whilst that's correct to an extent, I think we all know that Ukraine had very little chance of joining NATO post Crimea. Russia's actions effectively dictated that was not going to happen. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Whilst that's correct to an extent, I think we all know that Ukraine had very little chance of joining NATO post Crimea. Russia's actions effectively dictated that was not going to happen. 

I believe that a country cannot be considered for NATO if there is an unresolved conflict going on.

[Gloucester Saint]

Russia’s biggest issue is domestic inflation caused by Putin’s loopy war. They have been laying mercenaries and others crazy sums to fight in Ukraine with the result that Russian employers have had to keep pace on pay settlements. 

Putin isn’t keen to stop the war because it’ll all unravel the moment he does and the next act will be him falling from a balcony on a Moscow skyscraper once the economic harm becomes clear, allied to Western sanctions.

[aintforever]

13 hours ago, Jonnyboy said:

 the West knew fully that Ukraine was a  red line for Russia but crossed it anyway.

What, by not letting them join?

[sadoldgit]

Putin loves to use NATO, a defensive organisation, as a boogie man to justify his actions. He already has NATO on other borders without any threat to him in the past and none now, even though he has invaded a sovereign country. Why wouldn’t other countries on his borders would not want NATO protection give Putin’s actions in the past?

[Jonnyboy]

On 03/12/2024 at 07:47, egg said:

Whilst that's correct to an extent, I think we all know that Ukraine had very little chance of joining NATO post Crimea. Russia's actions effectively dictated that was not going to happen. 

And it isn't really our place to bloviate about morality of international relations with our history, and especially with the ongoing genocide in Palestine for which NATO has effectively supplied an unlimited supply of missiles and bombs to kill tens of thousands. Western hypocrisy at its most sickening.

[Jonnyboy]

On 03/12/2024 at 12:47, aintforever said:

What, by not letting them join?

Just dangling the carrot for decades. That's gone so well 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/01/nato.georgia

[aintforever]

5 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

Just dangling the carrot for decades. That's gone so well 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/01/nato.georgia

Yet Ukraine is desperate to join NATO, and NATO is saying no, not anytime soon.

Great carrot.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

And it isn't really our place to bloviate about morality of international relations with our history, and especially with the ongoing genocide in Palestine for which NATO has effectively supplied an unlimited supply of missiles and bombs to kill tens of thousands. Western hypocrisy at its most sickening.

NATO or individual allies of Israel?

[Lighthouse]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c4gx6p347dgt
 

Day 950 of three day special military operation, Syria has been conquered by rebel militia, senior general assassinated within farting distance of the Kremlin.

[whelk]

30 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c4gx6p347dgt
 

Day 950 of three day special military operation, Syria has been conquered by rebel militia, senior general assassinated within farting distance of the Kremlin.

Watch out Norfolk, you’re next to be conquered by the unstoppable Russian bear

[badgerx16]

In his end of year diatribe, Putler said that the roads in occupied areas of Ukraine are being upgraded to "Russian standards". Surely the shelling that has wrecked them has already acheived this.

[Lighthouse]

Another passenger airliner heroically shot down.

[benjii]

On the subject of heroism, posthumous awards due to the pilots and crew who, despite being shot, having their GPS jammed and refused an emergency landing by those Russian cunts, managed to fly over the sea and save half the passengers.

[Jonnyboy]

On 04/12/2024 at 21:16, sadoldgit said:

NATO or individual allies of Israel?

NATO is basically the US plus it's allies so it can be either or, depending on what suits the circumstances that the US is in at any given time.

Jeffrey Sachs is one of the best ones to listen to people ever get bored of the Western NATO narrative.

 

[Jonnyboy]

On 26/12/2024 at 14:19, Lighthouse said:

Another passenger airliner heroically shot down.

Of course it's different when we do it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Gloucester Saint]

 

[badgerx16]

[Jonnyboy]

Oof, what's that smell? NAFO fellas soiling their litter trays this morning.

Never thought I'd be happy to see Trump of all people getting this kind of win.

[Jimmy_D]

1 hour ago, Jonnyboy said:

Oof, what's that smell? NAFO fellas soiling their litter trays this morning.

Never thought I'd be happy to see Trump of all people getting this kind of win.

What's happened is that Trump made pledges that were impossible to keep about ending the war in Ukraine, and is now making a big show of being able to say he's 'started negotiations', only doing that by not even involving the country that's been invaded in negotiations, to distract from that original lie so he can blame someone else when Ukraine decide they'd rather not agree to a deal where only Russia have set the conditions.

[egg]

27 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

What's happened is that Trump made pledges that were impossible to keep about ending the war in Ukraine, and is now making a big show of being able to say he's 'started negotiations', only doing that by not even involving the country that's been invaded in negotiations, to distract from that original lie so he can blame someone else when Ukraine decide they'd rather not agree to a deal where only Russia have set the conditions.

What's happening is what was always going to happen, despite the protestations of a few in here, namely that there will be a negotiated settlement with Ukraine ceding land. It still staggers me that people swore blind that would never happen. 

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

What's happening is what was always going to happen, despite the protestations of a few in here, namely that there will be a negotiated settlement with Ukraine ceding land. It still staggers me that people swore blind that would never happen. 

T’was always the case. As soon as the USA had enough of funding/running the Ukrainian effort it would come to an end.

Ukraine has now lost massive swathes of land, Crimea will never return and hundreds of thousands of their troops are gone… and they may never ever join NATO.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

T’was always the case. As soon as the USA had enough of funding/running the Ukrainian effort it would come to an end.

Ukraine has now lost massive swathes of land, Crimea will never return and hundreds of thousands of their troops are gone… and they may never ever join NATO.

Indeed. Crimea has long gone, and at least the coastal area linking it with Russia will be ceded. I'm not sure that NATO has much life left, but if it does, the US won't have Ukraine as part of it. 

[aintforever]

I guess NATO has to decide wether it want's Ukraine as part of NATO or part of Russia.

There was always going to be a negotiated settlement of some sort, hopefully it ends up with something acceptable to the Ukrainians.

[whelk]

18 minutes ago, egg said:

It still staggers me that people swore blind that would never happen

So you were absolutely confident that Trump would win?

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, Jimmy_D said:

What's happened is that Trump made pledges that were impossible to keep about ending the war in Ukraine, and is now making a big show of being able to say he's 'started negotiations', only doing that by not even involving the country that's been invaded in negotiations, to distract from that original lie so he can blame someone else when Ukraine decide they'd rather not agree to a deal where only Russia have set the conditions.

This, in a nutshell. We’re still nowhere nearer to any actual agreement between Russia and Ukraine. Trump will no doubt meet up with mad Vlad, as it’ll look good for both of them politically, and agree to a bunch of stuff that Ukraine will have no desire to accept. What it’ll come down to then is whether the rest of Europe, without the involvement of the USA will continue to help Ukraine on the battlefield.

[spyinthesky]

I am sure that Trump's core of support will follow what he does slavishly.
By retreating back to fortress MAGA land, it creates a vacuum elsewhere around the world, particularly in Europe.
The concern for countries in Europe is that Russia will regroup and continue to pour roubles into their war machine which, currently, exceeds all the defence spending of European countries combined.
Unfortunately without the umbrella protection of the US  Military we will face the same challenges that would have occurred in WW1 and WW2 without US intervention.
Not a pleasant thought.

[egg]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

So you were absolutely confident that Trump would win?

I'm not sure Trump has won anything. Ukraine are losing on the ground though, and were never going to get Trump support for an ongoing war. 

[egg]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

This, in a nutshell. We’re still nowhere nearer to any actual agreement between Russia and Ukraine. Trump will no doubt meet up with mad Vlad, as it’ll look good for both of them politically, and agree to a bunch of stuff that Ukraine will have no desire to accept. What it’ll come down to then is whether the rest of Europe, without the involvement of the USA will continue to help Ukraine on the battlefield.

Do you still believe that this will not result in a negotiated settlement? 

[whelk]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm not sure Trump has won anything. Ukraine are losing on the ground though, and were never going to get Trump support for an ongoing war. 

He won an election, had he not the Ukraine situation could clearly play out differently 

[skintsaint]

Russia has gained approximately 6,000 square kilometres in the last two years while seriously depleting its armoury, so it is no wonder they are pleased to sit down now with Trump, as he offers them a way out while allowing them to save face.

Ukraine will have to sit down for talks but it's far from a given it will be accepted. With the Yanks pulling 40% of the funding Ukraine receives, it is hard to see them continuously holding out against Russia's human wave attacks long term.

[Lighthouse]

28 minutes ago, egg said:

Do you still believe that this will not result in a negotiated settlement? 

Why would Ukraine agree to any kind of deal in which they were not involved in any kind of negotiation and get nothing out of? This isn’t a negotiated settlement, it’s simply a case of whether or not Ukraine can continue to defend itself without US military aid.

[egg]

12 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Why would Ukraine agree to any kind of deal in which they were not involved in any kind of negotiation and get nothing out of? This isn’t a negotiated settlement, it’s simply a case of whether or not Ukraine can continue to defend itself without US military aid.

It was a yes or no question. The answer is that there will be a negotiated settlement. Whether Ukraine likes it or not, and whether it's done fairly, does not alter the fact that there will be a negotiated end to the conflict which results in Ukraine keeping some Ukrainian land. 

[Lighthouse]

21 minutes ago, egg said:

It was a yes or no question. The answer is that there will be a negotiated settlement. Whether Ukraine likes it or not, and whether it's done fairly, does not alter the fact that there will be a negotiated end to the conflict which results in Ukraine keeping some Ukrainian land. 

You’ve been saying this for three years now. I’ll believe it when both sides actually agree to a treaty and it holds. You seem very keen to tell everyone you’ve been proven right, just because the old man who thinks air traffic controllers are blind, black, lesbian psychiatric patients says he wants to talk to Putin.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve been saying this for three years now. I’ll believe it when both sides actually agree to a treaty and it holds. You seem very keen to tell everyone you’ve been proven right, just because the old man who thinks air traffic controllers are blind, black, lesbian psychiatric patients says he wants to talk to Putin.

You could say it for another three years. It doesn't make it less true as by far the most likely scenario. 

Edited February 13 by hypochondriac

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, egg said:

It was a yes or no question. The answer is that there will be a negotiated settlement. Whether Ukraine likes it or not, and whether it's done fairly, does not alter the fact that there will be a negotiated end to the conflict which results in Ukraine keeping some Ukrainian land. 

But it wouldn’t be a settled settlement. Russia would keep nibbling away.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But it wouldn’t be a settled settlement. Russia would keep nibbling away.

A settlement agreement is exactly that. Whether Russia behave themselves thereafter is a separate issue. 

[egg]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

You’ve been saying this for three years now. I’ll believe it when both sides actually agree to a treaty and it holds. You seem very keen to tell everyone you’ve been proven right, just because the old man who thinks air traffic controllers are blind, black, lesbian psychiatric patients says he wants to talk to Putin.

Frankly, you have to be rather naive to have ever doubted that this will end in any other way than an exchange of land for an end to fighting. Whether it's fair or what you'd like to see happen is another matter. 

[badgerx16]

"They took a lot of land and they fought for that land," - is Trump legitimising Putin's invasion because Russian soldiers died there ?

[badgerx16]

[spyinthesky]

I just wonder whether the Russians do have information on some dodgy stuff Trump got into when he was in Moscow years ago and/or if there is something Putin can offer to Trump and his family to grease their sweaty palms.
All that said Trump is probably so ingrained in the minds of Republican minds at the moment that he could survive more or less all types of shit that could be thrown at him.

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, spyinthesky said:

I just wonder whether the Russians do have information on some dodgy stuff Trump got into when he was in Moscow years ago and/or if there is something Putin can offer to Trump and his family to grease their sweaty palms.
 

He has the bank records for campaign donations to Trump's Presidential campaigns.

[Lighthouse]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

Frankly, you have to be rather naive to have ever doubted that this will end in any other way than an exchange of land for an end to fighting. Whether it's fair or what you'd like to see happen is another matter. 

You’d have to be rather more naive to believe that:

a) Ukraine would negotiate a deal which literally gives them nothing. It’s basically a piece of paper that says, "we’re okay with everything Russia has done."

b) Russia will stop fighting when they’ve been officially rewarded for what they’ve done so far but haven’t got everything they want yet.

[Weston Super Saint]

26 minutes ago, egg said:

Frankly, you have to be rather naive to have ever doubted that this will end in any other way than an exchange of land for an end to fighting. Whether it's fair or what you'd like to see happen is another matter. 

Like Putin then I guess