Removing Ted Bates Statue

[miserableoldgit]

37 minutes ago, macca155 said:

I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. Tearing down statues is all very well but what do you do in it's place. As a symbolic gesture it hits the mark and then ....

The club looked the other way and as such are culpable. I don't care what guise they were in they allowed it to happen. Rather than targeting individuals who cannot defend themselves do something positive. Fund a charity that protects children today, because sadly it still goes on. Provide the victims with a decent lump sum, if the club can pay £20 million for a centre forward, it can certainly afford to pay compensation to those it failed to look after. 

However having said that I also don't think the club can forever walk under an apologetic cloud. Learn and move forward.

A statue of Markus......until someone finds out that he was a Panzer tank driver during WWll.....

 

[Wurzel]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

... Its easy to look back now and say they didn't do enough, need to take responsibility etc, but if you were around at that time it's perhaps easier to understand why they didn't.

Plus of course the embarrasment, loss of trust and potentialy ruining any future working relationship if you approached the subject with the alledged perpetrator and the rumours turned out to be false. It appears  Merrington was the only one prepared to take that risk.

Thankfully nowadays there is enough awareness of the subject that i'd like to think most of us would  ar least ensure any such rumours were investigated. and anyone innocently accused could at least accept why it had to be checked. Back then though it was a different world.

Agree with you about the "every school had them" bit. Our PE teacher was a "gay pedo" based on nothing more than his shorts were tighter than most 😂

Edited 20 January, 2022 by Wurzel

[Millbrook Saint]

 

25 minutes ago, SonicBoom said:

There is a link to the independent report on this thread on the Ugly. 

The report states that a Headmaster had raised concerns about the behaviour of Higgins directly to Bates. No action was taken. The report says that this might have been in order to protect the clubs reputation and not Higgins. Either way nothing was done. 

The report also says it is unrealistic to imagine Bates didn't discuss this at board level although there are no records if it ever being discussed. 

So basically the conclusion was that concerns were reported to the club through Bates but that no action was taken. 

That same report in the next paragraph also said the following

'This may have been the first-time questions had been raised about Higgins’ behaviour and it is impossible to say for certain whether the implications of ‘inappropriate’ behaviour, at that time, would have been fully understood by BM1 or anyone else to whom he may have spoken to in the Club.'

BM1 being Ted by all accounts, this to me says he may not have even understood the seriousness of what was alleged, obviously now any mention of abuse would be fully investigated, back then this clearly wasn't the case.  Personally I don't think he can be blamed for any of this and to tarnish his legacy would be criminal

[East Kent Saint]

Down to the club to set the record straight , put their hand up even though it was a different time and demonstrate why it would not happen now due to procedures they have put in place .

[macca155]

39 minutes ago, miserableoldgit said:

A statue of Markus......until someone finds out that he was a Panzer tank driver during WWll.....

 

Yes probably best avoided, plus new owner hardly wants a statue of a old owner outside the ground. Maybe put up some more and move Ted to a less public place, plenty of candidates. Channon, Paine, LeTissier although the latter seems to be a tad controversial these days.

[Millbrook Saint]

1 minute ago, macca155 said:

Yes probably best avoided, plus new owner hardly wants a statue of a old owner outside the ground. Maybe put up some more and move Ted to a less public place, plenty of candidates. Channon, Paine, LeTissier although the latter seems to be a tad controversial these days.

Why, moving his statue would insinuate he was in some way involved, yes things may not have been investigated as they would be now, but he cannot be held accountable for what is in affect failings of the time.  The club has already held its hands up and apologised for what happened, we need to stop this ridiculous culture of destroying peoples legacies because they don't live up to todays standards.

[SaintsLoyal]

Appalling that this has come out via Dan Sheldon, who apparently is someone that attends every Saints game and media gathering. Did he not stop to think that just maybe the club should be the 'only' ones making comment with such a sensitive subject ? Clearly he didnt as hes only interested in getting 'the athletic' media attention and gullible people to pay to read their twaddle.  The fact is there is no evidence about Ted Bates and the barnardos report as i see it is purely 'their opinion'. Well its my opinion that the club are not responsible for the actions of Bob Higgins in anyway.  There are many unanswered questions around the original police case that flopped becuase ???? If as claiimed 'everyone knew' in Southampton then why didnt anyone actually tell the police back then ?

Now we have Ted Bates legacy stained because of Dan Sheldon and his shitty employer.

[CAH61]

Maybe i'm naive but i'm sure that any normal human being would not allow this to go on if they truly believed it was happening and they could stop it.

Edited 20 January, 2022 by CAH61

[John D]

42 minutes ago, SaintsLoyal said:

Appalling that this has come out via Dan Sheldon, who apparently is someone that attends every Saints game and media gathering. Did he not stop to think that just maybe the club should be the 'only' ones making comment with such a sensitive subject ? Clearly he didnt as hes only interested in getting 'the athletic' media attention and gullible people to pay to read their twaddle.  The fact is there is no evidence about Ted Bates and the barnardos report as i see it is purely 'their opinion'. Well its my opinion that the club are not responsible for the actions of Bob Higgins in anyway.  There are many unanswered questions around the original police case that flopped becuase ???? If as claiimed 'everyone knew' in Southampton then why didnt anyone actually tell the police back then ?

Now we have Ted Bates legacy stained because of Dan Sheldon and his shitty employer.

Not a fan of the Athletic then?

[mickn]

4 hours ago, Turkish said:

Thats was nearly 20 years before the Higgins stuff and he would have just stepped down as manager, i cant even remember what his role as in the 90s, he wasn't chairman that was Woodford and then Askham, he may have been a director i cant remember but certainly not the first person you think of who should have the finger pointed at for not doing anything,

Yes I must agree, I think I jumped the gun with my reply tbh, I am at work and jumped in without any thought for the timescales etc

[bender]

Maybe a mob will come along, throw it in the Solent and erect a statue of MLT instead

[Mr X]

5 minutes ago, bender said:

Maybe a mob will come along, throw it in the Solent and erect a statue of MLT instead

Doubt it are covid theorists just as controversial with the cancel culture mob? 

[verlaine1979]

Eh, it's not like this is ancient history. There are plenty of people still around who will have known what was said at the time and what wasn't. Can only assume that if the club is considering this, it's because they know that a full, public accounting of everything that happened would be even more damaging. 

[manji]

3 hours ago, John D said:

Not a fan of the Athletic then?

He can’t afford the subscription and the articles are too in depth for him. 

[manji]

I loathe identity politics and "cancel culture" to suggest paedophilia is the same is beyond ridiculous. 

[The Kraken]

4 hours ago, SaintsLoyal said:

Appalling that this has come out via Dan Sheldon, who apparently is someone that attends every Saints game and media gathering. Did he not stop to think that just maybe the club should be the 'only' ones making comment with such a sensitive subject ? Clearly he didnt as hes only interested in getting 'the athletic' media attention and gullible people to pay to read their twaddle.  The fact is there is no evidence about Ted Bates and the barnardos report as i see it is purely 'their opinion'. Well its my opinion that the club are not responsible for the actions of Bob Higgins in anyway.  There are many unanswered questions around the original police case that flopped becuase ???? If as claiimed 'everyone knew' in Southampton then why didnt anyone actually tell the police back then ?

Now we have Ted Bates legacy stained because of Dan Sheldon and his shitty employer.

This has got to be one of the dimmest posts I’ve ever seen on this board. And it’s a low benchmark. 

[SaintsLoyal]

1 hour ago, manji said:

He can’t afford the subscription and the articles are too in depth for him. 

In depth ? Anyone that pays for this shite is a total mug.

[Warriorsaint]

If he covered up or ignored Higgins actions then I have no issue with the statue coming down

The club do not take these kind of actions lightly. It may not be the popular thing to do but it may be the right thing to do.

[miserableoldgit]

1 minute ago, Warriorsaint said:

If he covered up or ignored Higgins actions then I have no issue with the statue coming down

The club do not take these kind of actions lightly. It may not be the popular thing to do but it may be the right thing to do.

How will we ever really know? Do we take down the state because he might have done?

[Warriorsaint]

1 minute ago, miserableoldgit said:

How will we ever really know? Do we take down the state because he might have done?

Read the post. If he did then I have no problem as would most right thinking people.

We might not know but these kind of things are never done without some real inside knowledge.

[hackedoff]

No winners from tales like this,only lots of losers.

[Weston Super Saint]

17 hours ago, SonicBoom said:

There is a link to the independent report on this thread on the Ugly. 

The report states that a Headmaster had raised concerns about the behaviour of Higgins directly to Bates. No action was taken. The report says that this might have been in order to protect the clubs reputation and not Higgins. Either way nothing was done. 

The report also says it is unrealistic to imagine Bates didn't discuss this at board level although there are no records if it ever being discussed. 

So basically the conclusion was that concerns were reported to the club through Bates but that no action was taken. 

Why did the Headmaster allegedy report an illegal act to a company employee?

Did the Headmaster not think that what he should be doing is reporting an act that is against the law to the local police?

Why, after he allegedly reported this only to Ted Bates, did he then not follow it up with a report to the police if he was clearly unhappy that no action had been taken?

So many questions. Zero actual answers.

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

Read the post. If he did then I have no problem as would most right thinking people.

We might not know but these kind of things are never done without some real inside knowledge.

Which seems to be the sum total of one Headmaster reporting something (we have no idea what was discussed), to Ted Bates, who allegedly took no action.

That's not 'inside knowledge', more hazy memories from 30 years ago.

[rallyboy]

The only way there is a case to answer is if someone from the club knew for certain there were problems and deliberately buried them, then we would need to look at Ted.

While there are former club employees who clearly could have done much better, I've seen no facts that indicate the club went as far as protecting Higgins.

It seems more likely that the rumours were never nailed down and dealt with - an error not a crime.

You need serious solid facts before you start reviewing statues and reputations.

 

[derry]

22 hours ago, Turkish said:

Thats was nearly 20 years before the Higgins stuff and he would have just stepped down as manager, i cant even remember what his role as in the 90s, he wasn't chairman that was Woodford and then Askham, he may have been a director i cant remember but certainly not the first person you think of who should have the finger pointed at for not doing anything,

It appears that all the charges against Higgins were 1980s and 1990s. I remember flying Saints to Norwich and Amsterdam matches in the late seventies/early eighties and speaking to Ted Bates in the terminal before the flight. Ted was still travelling to matches then. I remember on the Amsterdam flight Lawrie McMenemy got the whole squad to autograph Peter East's Saints book for me. I am absolutely against damaging Ted Bate's reputation and legacy on the back of one hearsay comment especially when there were so many others closer to the offences for over ten years and did nothing. I think Higgins was gone within a fortnight of Dave Merrington reporting it in 1989.

I see the Daily Echo has front paged it, two pages inside but rediculously lazy reporting outside SMS, two passing students 19 and 20, "don't know much about it" say the statue should definitely come down. Whilst a supporter of 68 years gives a very reasoned answer leading to no way should it come down. The two youngsters probably just passing and nobbled by a reporter. MP Alan Whitehead's comment didn't support removing the statue but mentioned Higgins sacking as 1985 and that Ted sacked him. As far as I know it was 1989 and whilst Ted was a Director then President he retired at the end of 1973 as manager. 

Edited 21 January, 2022 by derry
Read the Echo.

[tajjuk]

14 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

If he covered up or ignored Higgins actions then I have no issue with the statue coming down

The club do not take these kind of actions lightly. It may not be the popular thing to do but it may be the right thing to do.

I agree. If there is evidence that he ignored this having been directly told about it or covered it up then IMO it over rules anything he ever did for the club, that is football, its a sport, it doesn't compare to these people's lives which have been destroyed by this evil man. 

If they do take the statue down than I would trust that the club are only doing that because they have such information and agree it would the only right course of action.

 

[VectisSaint]

The problem with removing the statue of Ted, is that because he is the man rightly honoured and remembered for all that he did for the Club the action will make it seem that he is the main culprit in the disgusting activities of the paedophile, and actually associate Ted with those activities. Whereas there are (many) others who are equally, if not more guilty of ignoring these activities at the time who will not be damaged in this way because they are not honoured in the same way. The outsider will look at this and say, look they've removed the statue of Ted Bates, he must be as guilty as the paedo if they have removed the memorial, whereas as far as i understand his only "crime" was to do nothing. I'm not against removing statues of wrong doers, fully support what happened to Edward Colston's statue in Bristol, but this is wokeness gone mad. Ted Bates was a honest and honourable guy, who did so much for the Club and City, his crime is almost certainly that he only saw good in people and would not have thought these horrendous activities could have taken place; he was perhaps a little naive, but then who wasn't back in the 80s when these things were going on.

[manji]

For the Southampton board to hint the statue might be coming down would suggest they have more information. Why stoke the controversy when there was no clamour before ? The other possibility is there will be more news coming out and they are trying to preempt any issues. 
Interestingly Celtic are embroiled in a peadophile scandal and there is talk of removing the Jock Stein statue. 

[AlexLaw76]

It is just a statue, what is the issue?

I do not agree with the above, but the genie is out of the bottle now.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

I’ve just read the Barnado report in full (it’s available via a link on the Club’s website). I’m glad I made no comment either way before I read it as I learned a lot. I’ve also spoken this morning to some of the victims and they have no wish whatsoever to see the statue come down. I also think the present Board’s statement after the report came out last year to be spot on and they have responded in an exemplary fashion. 

I think the article in the Athletic was written and published in haste and without much thought to the consequences. 
No doubt many employees and board members of SFC, back then, were guilty at the very least of neglect and one or two, even now, are refusing to take any blame.
 

However for one man, no longer with us or able to defend himself, to bear the brunt of this tragedy is simply not right. 
 

At the end of the day though my sympathies lie with those who were abused and I just hope that eventually they can get some sort of closure. 
 

[SaintsLoyal]

No evidence ! 

Any Saints fan out there subscribed to this 'athletic' needs to cancel it and complain about the conduct of Dan Sheldon and this disgusting article.

If as people suggest 'they knew' then how did BH continue with football academys locally in the 90s and get jobs at bashley and winchester ?

Dave Merrington started work in 1983 i think and was the first person acting on something he heard that complained to Nicholl and to the board. 

The only 'hands up' you can point to in my eyes from the club at the time of Higgins leaving in 1989, they told the FL but failed to tell the Police for a set time. I also think after the failed court case in 1992 the club never seem to consider any thoughts to those that gave prosecution evidence. But back then was there any counselling around like nowadays ? 

Edited 21 January, 2022 by SaintsLoyal

[Colinjb]

Enough with cancel culture.

Use the negatives as points to learn from. You erase the bad, you doom future generations to repeat past mistakes. Would be livid if the statue is taken down. Especially as peadophiles don't just manipulate their victims directly, but also those around them to cover their tracks.

Edited 21 January, 2022 by Colinjb

[kwsaint]

2 hours ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

I’ve just read the Barnado report in full (it’s available via a link on the Club’s website). I’m glad I made no comment either way before I read it as I learned a lot. I’ve also spoken this morning to some of the victims and they have no wish whatsoever to see the statue come down. I also think the present Board’s statement after the report came out last year to be spot on and they have responded in an exemplary fashion. 

I think the article in the Athletic was written and published in haste and without much thought to the consequences. 
No doubt many employees and board members of SFC, back then, were guilty at the very least of neglect and one or two, even now, are refusing to take any blame.
 

However for one man, no longer with us or able to defend himself, to bear the brunt of this tragedy is simply not right. 
 

At the end of the day though my sympathies lie with those who were abused and I just hope that eventually they can get some sort of closure. 
 

Thanks.   A really thoughtful post.  For me the key point is that the victims don't want the statue removed and therefore it should stay.  They are the ones that really matter in all this.  The TV documentary that covered Bob Higgin's time at Southampton was a tough watch and brought home the fact that the victims of abuse have to live with it for the rest of their lives.

[manji]

Firstly this has nothing to do with real cancel culture. The amount of dimwits parroting the phrase is amazing. Secondly why the f**k are The Athletic getting the blame ?  Southampton had already contacted the victims they were considering taking the statue down. 
Im guessing the club leaked the story to The Athletic to test the water. 
 

Im amazed some posters are admitting they get all their news from The Echo the "newspaper" that’s takes stories from forums and proper papers Twitter feed.

[SaintsLoyal]

50 minutes ago, manji said:

Firstly this has nothing to do with real cancel culture. The amount of dimwits parroting the phrase is amazing. Secondly why the f**k are The Athletic getting the blame ?  Southampton had already contacted the victims they were considering taking the statue down. 
Im guessing the club leaked the story to The Athletic to test the water. 
 

Im amazed some posters are admitting they get all their news from The Echo the "newspaper" that’s takes stories from forums and proper papers Twitter feed.

Whats it got to do with 'the athletic' its none of their business and theyve merely latched on to the media frenzy around statues coming down and wanting attention to their poxy website.

This is pure club business on such a serious subject and Dan Sheldon should be thinking, no this isnt something that i want my name attached to and is better off coming from the club.

[manji]

10 minutes ago, SaintsLoyal said:

Whats it got to do with 'the athletic' its none of their business and theyve merely latched on to the media frenzy around statues coming down and wanting attention to their poxy website.

This is pure club business on such a serious subject and Dan Sheldon should be thinking, no this isnt something that i want my name attached to and is better off coming from the club.

You’re obsessed with the Athletic 🙄 it’s quite obvious the club leaked the story. 

[SaintsLoyal]

2 minutes ago, manji said:

You’re obsessed with the Athletic 🙄 it’s quite obvious the club leaked the story. 

Eh... Why the hell would the club leak a story to the media about inconclusive claims, nobody with a brain would do that.

[derry]

There is only one side of the story out there. The headmaster who isn't identified by name. Ted is dead, any criticism is as far as I know is not liable. Ted can't defend himself so in my opinion that's enough to leave his legacy intact. I'm not even sure the club are invoved in any way in instigating this or for that matter wanting to annoy a lot of fans.

[Saint_clark]

On 20/01/2022 at 08:23, Matthew Le God said:

Have you read the reasoning? If true then it taints Ted Bates' legacy significantly. 

Thats an if which we will never know the answer too. 

f**k this idea and f**k anyone who supports it, it absolutely should not be allowed to happen. If they do this then they need to erase the names of everyone who was associated with the club during Higgins active years from our record books. 

[Toadhall Saint]

8 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

Thats an if which we will never know the answer too. 

f**k this idea and f**k anyone who supports it, it absolutely should not be allowed to happen. If they do this then they need to erase the names of everyone who was associated with the club during Higgins active years from our record books. 

The victims don’t support it apparently so if they are ok with the statute I’m not sure why it’s even being debated.

[alehouseboys]

32 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

The victims don’t support it apparently so if they are ok with the statute I’m not sure why it’s even being debated.

Agree - live on Sky this evening, hopefully they make no reference to it and stir it up.

[Toadhall Saint]

1 hour ago, alehouseboys said:

Agree - live on Sky this evening, hopefully they make no reference to it and stir it up.

🤞

[VectisSaint]

10 hours ago, Saint_clark said:

f**k this idea and f**k anyone who supports it, it absolutely should not be allowed to happen. If they do this then they need to erase the names of everyone who was associated with the club during Higgins active years from our record books. 

Absolutely. The logical conclusion to this is that because the failings were at Southampton Football Club, we should remove all references to the name of the Club at St Mary's and change the name of the club as well to avoid any reminders that this happened at this Club. That would go down well, what do you reckon, AFC Saints, New Forest Rovers, Freemantle City, Soton Town, Antelope Athletic. I'm torn, I don't know what I would prefer.

[hackedoff]

2 hours ago, VectisSaint said:

Absolutely. The logical conclusion to this is that because the failings were at Southampton Football Club, we should remove all references to the name of the Club at St Mary's and change the name of the club as well to avoid any reminders that this happened at this Club. That would go down well, what do you reckon, AFC Saints, New Forest Rovers, Freemantle City, Soton Town, Antelope Athletic. I'm torn, I don't know what I would prefer.

None are suitable.

"Saints" will upset Muslims

"Rovers" will upset the travelling community

"Fremantle" might upset people from Australia

"Soton" (being a shortened name) will upset short people

"Antelope" will upset animals ( and probably Chris Packham.

[SaintsLoyal]

So a former victim of BH has said that hes attended meetings with others at the club in recent years and the Ted Bates statue has never been mentioned.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

On 21/01/2022 at 19:25, derry said:

There is only one side of the story out there. The headmaster who isn't identified by name. Ted is dead, any criticism is as far as I know is not liable. Ted can't defend himself so in my opinion that's enough to leave his legacy intact. I'm not even sure the club are invoved in any way in instigating this or for that matter wanting to annoy a lot of fans.

Anyone who wants to take the Statue down is just creating another victim of this vile man BH.

Edited 22 January, 2022 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[miserableoldgit]

Interesting that Mike Channon made a point of mentioning the statue tonight and that one of the Saints videos featured Ted Bates....

[Toadhall Saint]

1 minute ago, miserableoldgit said:

Interesting that Mike Channon made a point of mentioning the statue tonight and that one of the Saints videos featured Ted Bates....

See that’s the thing - history is just that. You can’t just air brush Ted out if it. Take the statue away - it still doesn’t get rid of Ted and what he gave to SFC. Personally I think it would be an absolute travesty if the club got rid of the statue esp as the victims are not looking for it to be removed.

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, Toadhall Saint said:

See that’s the thing - history is just that. You can’t just air brush Ted out if it. Take the statue away - it still doesn’t get rid of Ted and what he gave to SFC. Personally I think it would be an absolute travesty if the club got rid of the statue esp as the victims are not looking for it to be removed.

as we have seen with the incident in Bristol, it makes people feel better when in the 'area'

Edited 22 January, 2022 by AlexLaw76

[John Boy Saint]

Don’t whether it was because I read about this on here - but in the stadium tonight when Mick Channon was receiving his Forever Saint award - he was asked a question, but brushed the answer and went on pointedly to mention Ted Bates.