Formula One

[whelk]

What a load of bollocks that safety car rule is

[AlexLaw76]

Great spectacle though

[Whitey Grandad]

Something not right there. 

[badgerx16]

The stewards mucked up the decision on lap 1, and Race Control later decided that the championship should be decided by a racing lap rather than behind the safety car. RedBull gambled when the SC was deployed whilst Mercedes missed the trick.

There is no regulation that says lapped cars must be allowed to pass the SC.

EDIT: Toto Wolff complained to Race Control, who responded with "It's called a motor race".

Edited 12 December, 2021 by badgerx16

[Whitey Grandad]

But how can it be a race if the previous 57 laps are scrapped and the two leading cars are forced to start again alongside each other?

[AlexLaw76]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The stewards mucked up the decision on lap 1, and Race Control later decided that the championship should be decided by a racing lap rather than behind the safety car. RedBull gambled when the SC was deployed whilst Mercedes missed the trick.

There is no regulation that says lapped cars must be allowed to pass the SC.

EDIT: Toto Wolff complained to Race Control, who responded with "It's called a motor race".

Hamilton questioned why a couple of times about the pitting.  Mercedes gambled for race position, Red Bull gambled on getting a lap.  Red Bull got the luck

Incredible ending though

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But how can it be a race if the previous 57 laps are scrapped and the two leading cars are forced to start again alongside each other?

With one having a chance to change tyres. There are more diehard fans than me but disgrace IMO and staged. Whole thing actually gets on my tits as glorified trade show. Lewis very dignified 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

But how can it be a race if the previous 57 laps are scrapped and the two leading cars are forced to start again alongside each other?

Is it a race if the last 6 laps leading to the chequered flag are spent queued behind an Aston Martin sports car ?

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

With one having a chance to change tyres. There are more diehard fans than me but disgrace IMO and staged. Whole thing actually gets on my tits as glorified trade show. Lewis very dignified 

Red Bull pitted when they saw that Mercedes did not. If Hamilton had pitted I suspect that Red Bull would have left Verstappen out.

[Whitey Grandad]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Is it a race if the last 6 laps leading to the chequered flag are spent queued behind an Aston Martin sports car ?

In that case the previous 52 laps are what counted. How can you wipeout an 11 seconds lead and then call it a fair race? Those 11 seconds were bought by not changing tyres. It smells very dodgy to me.

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

In that case the previous 52 laps are what counted. How can you wipeout an 11 seconds lead and then call it a fair race? Those 11 seconds were bought by not changing tyres. It smells very dodgy to me.

A safety car will always wipe out a lead. It has happened many times this season, as well as all the previous ones since SCs were introduced. Teams know they are likely, on which circuits they are more prevalent, and plan accordingly.

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

A safety car will always wipe out a lead. It has happened many times this season, as well as all the previous ones since SCs were introduced. Teams know they are likely, on which circuits they are more prevalent, and plan accordingly.

In the last lap? Surely the race positions should be maintained before and after the safety car?

Edited 12 December, 2021 by Whitey Grandad

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

In the last lap? Surely the race positions should be maintained before and after the safety car?

The SC came out with 6 laps to go. Unless they had deployed the virtual SC instead how are they supposed to maintain positions ? What if they had red flagged the race and then had a full restart from the grid for the last 5 laps ?

[Whitey Grandad]

7 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The SC came out with 6 laps to go. Unless they had deployed the virtual SC instead how are they supposed to maintain positions ? What if they had red flagged the race and then had a full restart from the grid for the last 5 laps ?

How many cars were between Hamilton and Verstappen when the SC was brought out and how many were still there when the SC was withdrawn?

 Full restart on new tyres for the last few laps would have avoided the unsatisfactory finish.

Edited 12 December, 2021 by Whitey Grandad
Missing ? mark

[Lighthouse]

Quite clearly Hamilton deserved that win but then Max lost a lot of points in Baku, Silverstone and Hungary. He would have had the Championship won two races ago if he hadn’t lost all those points, through no fault of his own.

I don’t like the safety car, I think every incident like that should be either a VSC or a red flag.

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

How many cars were between Hamilton and Verstappen when the SC was brought out and how many were still there when the SC was withdrawn?

 Full restart on new tyres for the last few laps would have avoided the unsatisfactory finish.

If they had let all the back runners past so as to restore the status quo the race would have finished behind the SC. For whatever reason Race Control decided that the title should be decided by a straight shoot out between the drivers who were joint leaders in the championship going in to the race.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

Quite clearly Hamilton deserved that win but then Max lost a lot of points in Baku, Silverstone and Hungary. He would have had the Championship won two races ago if he hadn’t lost all those points, through no fault of his own.

I don’t like the safety car, I think every incident like that should be either a VSC or a red flag.

Quite. Unless the track is impassable the VSC should be used. If it is impassable then red flag.

[stknowle]

Not even remotely interested in the sport but thought I'd give it a go due to all the publicity about how exciting it was going to be. Fell asleep.

[Whitey Grandad]

14 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

If they had let all the back runners past so as to restore the status quo the race would have finished behind the SC. For whatever reason Race Control decided that the title should be decided by a straight shoot out between the drivers who were joint leaders in the championship going in to the race.

Except that is one thing that it wasn’t. I don’t have a dog in this race but wiping out an eleven second lead and clearing the five cars that were between the two contenders just strikes me as not right.

[danjosaint]

Discussing and corrupt, u either let all lapped cars past or none, not conveniently the 4 inbetween max and Lewis,  then to do on the same stretch as safety car coming in, just beyond a major cluster fuck 

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, danjosaint said:

Discussing and corrupt, u either let all lapped cars past or none, not conveniently the 4 inbetween max and Lewis,  then to do on the same stretch as safety car coming in, just beyond a major cluster fuck 

Actually it was five cars in between. From the BBC,

”In this case, only Norris, Alonso, Ocon, Leclerc and Vettel were allowed to overtake it - they were the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen. Ricciardo, Stroll and Schumacher were not..”

Edit:   And this,

”There is also this part of that article: "Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap." There was no lap in between.”

Edited 12 December, 2021 by Whitey Grandad

[egg]

46 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Except that is one thing that it wasn’t. I don’t have a dog in this race but wiping out an eleven second lead and clearing the five cars that were between the two contenders just strikes me as not right.

Couldn't agree more. Max put himself behind several cars when putting and to have them cleared, and the gap eliminated is a disgrace. 

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, egg said:

Couldn't agree more. Max put himself behind several cars when putting and to have them cleared, and the gap eliminated is a disgrace. 

But if you don't do that you're putting the lapped cars at a massive disadvantage. They might end up a lap down on a car that was only five seconds ahead of them before the safety car came out, because the leader happened to be in the gap between them.

There's no totally fair way to do it.

[Whitey Grandad]

4 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

But if you don't do that you're putting the lapped cars at a massive disadvantage. They might end up a lap down on a car that was only five seconds ahead of them before the safety car came out, because the leader happened to be in the gap between them.

There's no totally fair way to do it.

Then in that case don’t all lapped cars get given the opportunity to overtake the safety car?

[Lighthouse]

2 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Then in that case don’t all lapped cars get given the opportunity to overtake the safety car?

Correct, it was completely botched, I was just pointing out why they allow lapped cars to overtake.

[Whitey Grandad]

19 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Correct, it was completely botched, I was just pointing out why they allow lapped cars to overtake.

Fair enough. Have a good evening.

[badgerx16]

Mercedes look like they were anticipating iasues before the race started - they have taken a barrister in to see the stewards and the appeal panel. Where did they find a barrister at short notice ?

Edited 12 December, 2021 by badgerx16

[egg]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Mercedes look like they were anticipating iasues before the race started - they have taken a barrister in to see the stewards and the appeal panel. Where did they find a barrister at short notice ?

They'll have one on the team. I knew a lad who was in house counsel for a now disbanded team, he followed them everywhere. 

[RedArmy]

The FIA created this mess with their bizzare decision to not allow lapped cars to overtake the safety car in the first place. 
If they had made the right decision at that point then we would have ended up with a 1 lap race and Verstappen still would have won but without the controversy. 
The car recovery was in one part of the track they had the rest of the circuit to let them go, they didn’t have to catch up to the pack to restart the race so there were no legitimate safety concerns. 
 

The result is correct, but the process was a complete clusterfuck and could end up causing the wrong result. 

[farawaysaint]

F1 manufactured this championship final with some incredibly dubious decisions on both ends to keep the driver’s championship this close to this point. 
 

Some of the decisions this season have been utterly perplexing if not considered in this light. 

[Mosin]

On 12/12/2021 at 18:05, RedArmy said:

The FIA created this mess with their bizzare decision to not allow lapped cars to overtake the safety car in the first place. 
If they had made the right decision at that point then we would have ended up with a 1 lap race and Verstappen still would have won but without the controversy. 
The car recovery was in one part of the track they had the rest of the circuit to let them go, they didn’t have to catch up to the pack to restart the race so there were no legitimate safety concerns. 
 

The result is correct, but the process was a complete clusterfuck and could end up causing the wrong result. 

Result isnt correct at all, Marshals was on the track still during lap 57, so the ALL the cars had to unlap only towards the end lap 57 for safety reason, so would have still needed by regualtion to have a lap to rejoin the pact as per the rules, so the safety car comes in at the end of the next lap as per the regualtions end of 58 thus only a 100 yards dash to the line which means it finished under yellow flag.I

If you dont let the cars unlap, then they can bring the SC in at the end of lap 57 and we can go racing once LH has restarted the race with 5 cars between him and MV which redbull knew meant max was very unlikely to catch LH so knowing the rules and the likely hood of it finishing like that is why he ( CH ) was on the phone screaming at Masi to only let SOME lapped cars past which is againsts the rules as it clearly says all cars or none, take note all SC rules are written to adhear to all other regualtions eg the first line of the international sporting regualtion which all its championships must race under not just f1, i think about 23 different ones... WEC, F2, f3, FE and soon and so on... here is the first line of the code.

ARTICLE 1.1 INTERNATIONAL REGULATIONS OF MOTOR
SPORT

1.1.1 The FIA shall be the sole international sporting
authority entitled to make and enforce regulations based
on the fundamental principles of safety and sporting
fairness, for the encouragement and control of automobile
Competitions, and to organise FIA International
Championships.

it was fixed / manipulated. MV is a fake champion. LH is the rightful 8th time world champion, and it will always be remebered as such.

[AlexLaw76]

There is a rule sitting above all.  The Massi's final call is it.  

[Mosin]

18 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

There is a rule sitting above all.  The Massi's final call is it.  

Not for the international sporting code, it'll be like mike dean in the middle of the game deciding that every time one team kicks the ball, no matter where on pitch, its a penalty and they cant even have a GK in the goal, and the FA coming out and saying, yeah mate thats FAIR PLAY, he is the ref he can do what he wants and change the rules as he sees fit even if it goes againsts fair sport.

There is a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past’ [emphasis added] before the safety car returns to the pit lane and the race recommences ‘therefore the safety car period was a bit longer than what we would have normally wanted’ – i.e. the race director cannot overrule the appropriate application of the regulations, including the full application of article 48.12.

Wanted to add, that was a comment from Masi himself, The race director.

Edited 16 December, 2021 by Mosin
added info

[AlexLaw76]

This is the get-out

 

[Mosin]

On 16/12/2021 at 09:14, AlexLaw76 said:

This is the get-out

 

you are confusing the f1's sporting regualtions with the FIA's international ones.. the ISC ( International sporting code ) over rides it all, its the big one, the one every single series, all the way down to Karting must compete on, its contents havent really changed for over 60 years. even more so the first line which has been on it since the the fia was born....
The f1 sporting regulatoins are different, these include ( But are seperated )the things like technical regs and so on, these change every year and also during the season, here is the first line of the f1 regualtions

1) REGULATIONS
1.1 The final text of these Sporting Regulations shall be the English version which will be used should
any dispute arise as to their interpretation. Headings in this document are for ease of reference
only and do not form part of these Sporting Regulations.
1.2 These Sporting Regulations apply to the whole calendar year referred to in the title, and to the
Championship taking place within that calendar year (“the Championship”). Any changes made
by the FIA for safety reasons may come into effect without notice or delay.

i will add an important one for you that is in the f1's sporting regulations, you will like its wording
2) GENERAL UNDERTAKING
2.1 All drivers, Competitors and officials participating in the Championship undertake, on behalf of
themselves, their employees, agents and suppliers, to observe all the provisions as
supplemented or amended of the International Sporting Code (the Code), the Formula One
Technical Regulations (Technical Regulations), the Formula One Financial Regulations (Financial
Regulations) and the present Sporting Regulations together referred to as “the Regulations”

2.2 The Championship and each of its Events is governed by the FIA in accordance with the
Regulations. Event means any event entered into the FIA Formula One Championship Calendar
for any year commencing 24 hours before P1 is scheduled to take place and ending at the time
for the lodging of a protest under the terms of the Code or the time when a technical or sporting
certification has been carried out under the terms of the Code, whichever is the later.

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/110

The first line in the Fia's internation sporting code is above in my privious post, here is the website link to the ISC https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

he can change some things, but not sporting ones..... these are the principles of motorsport as a whole, not just f1, it is his jobs, and the FIA's to make sure every single race and all the championshisp, formual one, touring, WEC, you know just look your self its a big list, https://www.fia.com/fia-competitions.

From the fia, i highlighted an important bit for you

"

On Sunday, another FIA F1 world championship season of competitive excellence has concluded, and the credit goes to the participating drivers and teams. The FIA congratulates all of them for their performances in this year. It was a hard fight, and the best competition was displayed at each Grand Prix.

The world watched every race with great anticipation, knowing that in the end, there could only be one winner. In this respect, many praised Max Verstappen for his victory, and Lewis Hamilton for his remarkable performance and sportsmanship after the closing event of the season.

The 2021 FIA Formula 1 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, has prompted a large number of reactions from the F1 community and from motor sport in general, as well as in the public.

The FIA’s primary responsibility at any event is to ensure the safety of everyone involved and the integrity of the sport.

The circumstances surrounding the use of the Safety Car following the incident of driver Nicholas Latifi, and the related communications between the FIA race direction team and the Formula 1 teams, have notably generated significant misunderstanding and reactions from Formula 1 teams, drivers and fans, an argument that is currently tarnishing the image of the Championship and the due celebration of the first drivers’ world championship title won by Max Verstappen and the eighth consecutive constructors’ world championship title won by Mercedes.

Following the presentation of a report regarding the sequence of events that took place following the incident on Lap 53 of the Grand Prix and in a constant drive for improvement, the FIA President proposed to the World Motor Sport Council that a detailed analysis and clarification exercise for the future with all relevant parties will now take place.

This matter will be discussed and addressed with all the teams and drivers to draw any lessons from this situation and clarity to be provided to the participants, media, and fans about the current regulations to preserve the competitive nature of our sport while ensuring the safety of the drivers and officials. It is not only Formula 1 that may benefit from this analysis, but also more generally all the other FIA circuit championships.

Following that presentation and an extensive discussion, the World Council has decided to unanimously support the President’s proposal.

The FIA will therefore do its utmost to have this in motion within the Formula 1 governance and will propose to the Formula 1 Commission to give a clear mandate for study and proposal to the Sporting Advisory Committee, with the support of Formula 1 drivers, so that any identified meaningful feedback and conclusions be made before the beginning of the 2022 season.

It was a farce, a manipulation to hand MV the crown and it will for ever be tainted as such.

 

[Jimmy_D]

Mercedes thought that the race would end under the safety car, and so didn’t pit. As the regulations are written, it should have done, it was only Masi making it up as he went along that meant a final lap of racing occurred, and no-one could base any decisions on that happening unless they were a mind reader.

In effect Mercedes made the right call and it cost them the title.

You add in what happened at Spa and the fact that it’s meant that Verstappen could afford to risk crashing both of them out every time he was defending…

Verstappen’s driving standards are another matter. He’s been allowed to get away with utterly **** racing moves, and in any other formula, against any other driver, he’d have been lucky to escape a broken nose if he’d tried a brake test.

This title will always be associated with how it ended. Tainted.

All in all pretty disillusioned with F1 now.

[Lighthouse]

19 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

Mercedes thought that the race would end under the safety car, and so didn’t pit. As the regulations are written, it should have done, it was only Masi making it up as he went along that meant a final lap of racing occurred, and no-one could base any decisions on that happening unless they were a mind reader.

In effect Mercedes made the right call and it cost them the title.

You add in what happened at Spa and the fact that it’s meant that Verstappen could afford to risk crashing both of them out every time he was defending…

Verstappen’s driving standards are another matter. He’s been allowed to get away with utterly **** racing moves, and in any other formula, against any other driver, he’d have been lucky to escape a broken nose if he’d tried a brake test.

This title will always be associated with how it ended. Tainted.

All in all pretty disillusioned with F1 now.

At the time Red Bull pitted and Mercedes didn’t, there was nothing in the regulations to implore them to end the race under SC. Merc didn’t pit because they didn’t want to lose track position, not because they thought it was guaranteed to end that way.

I haven’t seen it confirmed anywhere that max used his brakes in Saudi, although I could be wrong. Both drivers knew what was going on there and wanted to be second going over the DRS detection.

You can say it wasn’t fair but then then Max got taken out by Mercedes in Silverstone and Hungary. He probably felt like he had the right to fight a bit dirty to get his points back.

[Jimmy_D]

3 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

At the time Red Bull pitted and Mercedes didn’t, there was nothing in the regulations to implore them to end the race under SC. Merc didn’t pit because they didn’t want to lose track position, not because they thought it was guaranteed to end that way.

I haven’t seen it confirmed anywhere that max used his brakes in Saudi, although I could be wrong. Both drivers knew what was going on there and wanted to be second going over the DRS detection.

You can say it wasn’t fair but then then Max got taken out by Mercedes in Silverstone and Hungary. He probably felt like he had the right to fight a bit dirty to get his points back.

Mercedes had to make a judgement on whether it would finish under the safety car. Had the written regulations been followed, they were correct. Every car other than Verstappen was disadvantaged by the way it was ended. Sainz couldn’t fight for 2nd and Verstappen didn’t have to worry about any attack from behind. Midfield battles were completely ignored.

As for the brake test;

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-verstappen-handed-further-10-second-penalty-for-lap-37-collision.7GGfMvAnRIGPtMQphh7zCd.html

"In deciding to penalise the driver of Car 33, the key point for the Stewards was that the driver of car 33 then braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4g deceleration."

The penalty for that was ridiculously light as well.

As for Silverstone, that had very little difference to the first lap incident at Abu Dhabi, just that Verstappen was willing to and could afford to crash because of it.

[rallyboy]

He did brake in Saudi, quite hard, trying to be clever by dabbing them and booting it at the same time to retake the place straightaway - proven by when he did that later.

As for last weekend, Max surrendered track position to put on new rubber, a very long shot gamble.

The problem was when Massi gave him a massive advantage by restoring his track position through making up a new rule on the spot.

It was a total clusterfuck of officiating that Mike Dean would have been proud of, as for adding drama, the season has had enough without Massi thinking he can sprinkle some of his own magic on it to liven things up.

And anyone who thinks they witnessed a one lap shootout on equal terms clearly doesn't grasp much at all - that title was handed over and stage-managed in a most bizarre manner - there should only be two people in a head-to-head title decider like that, three is a crowd.

 

[badgerx16]

Nicholas Latifi getting abuse and death threats after the crash that caused the SC to be deployed. Social Media is the curse of the modern age.

[Mystic Force]

Whilst I am sure Latifi is not on Hamilton's Christmas card list this year, the internet really has demonstrated just how many people are complete bellends. Once upon a time only their mates down the pub had to suffer, now we have handed them all megaphones and said have it.