COVID and Football (Merged)

[Sarnia Cherie]

3 hours ago, washsaint said:

At some stage the world needs to get on living (cue the hysterical tarts with 'one life lost is too many') and learn to live with this virus.  Existing is not living and the amount of collateral damage caused by Europe's continual lock downs cannot be underestimated.

The NHS has not been fit for purpose for decades and needs a radical overhaul.

All the stats from South Africa showed that Omicron was a far milder variation and so the hysterical 1 million cases a day reporting simply was ludicrous and self-defeating.

Days of the British and the stiff upper lip and and just getting on with things seems to have long passed (unfortunately).

Well said. I worked for the NHS for 17 years pre-Covid. Labour and Tory governments have increased management on huge salaries whilst nurses and midwives are desperately short staffed and have their salaries either frozen or grudgingly awarded a 1-2% pay rise. I agree that they are long overdue for a radical overhaul from top to bottom. So many more people are testing these days so more testing will throw up more positive results but fewer cases are needing hospital treatment. What Boris must tackle are the unvaccinated. I listened to an ICU doctor being interviewed and he said all his patients on intensive care at the moment are  unvaccinated. They don't want to put anything like the vaccine in their body. However, if they catch Covid and end up in hospital they will be bombarded with a huge amount of drugs all with side effects. Where is the logic? Footballers need to roll their sleeves up and get their jabs. If a club can't field a team because of Covid they should forfeit the game with 3 points going to their opponents. Anti-vaxxers should be denied access to sports and entertainment venues. Start being strict on these snowflakes and denying them their freedom and see how many of them still don't want the vaccine? I am triple jabbed and take sensible precautions so I don't see why I should live any more of my life stuck indoors because of the selfish, irresponsible ones amongst us. 

[egg]

17 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Agree with this. I hate the scruffy fat cunt with a passion but we were right to take precautionary measures until more was known about the virus. Not sure why anyone is wetting their pants over it, we can still go out and get pissed up and go to a football match/nightclub/strip club whatever.

 

3 hours ago, Barry the Badger said:

For once I actually think he's doing the right thing. It would've been wrong to introduce a lockdown based on worst case scenarios, given that we know how hard lockdown impacts people, mental health and businesses (probably even more so at Christmas).

Seems like a genuinely sensible approach to keep a close eye on the stats and wait and see this time, then react quickly if it does actually seem like hospitalisations are increasing (the national stats show no signs of this yet). 

Yep. This variant is still in its infancy over here. Locking down would have been over the top, and doing nothing would have been negligent. At the moment we just have to pop a mask on, use common sense/our own judgment, and boost our defences with another jab. Our current approach is balanced and sensible imo, and I'm not sure where page after page of the same repetitive nonsense takes anyone.

[Charlie Wayman]

4 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Did you read this part of the article or only the headline...?

"While omicron seems milder overall, the UKHSA has found it is not necessarily mild enough to avoid large numbers of hospitalisations. The experts have found evidence that for those who do become severely ill, there is still a high chance of hospitalisation and death.

Given that the transmissibility of omicron is very high, there is the chance that even though it is milder, infections could soar to the point that large numbers end up in hospital."

I imagine in your childhood you delighted in pointing out to your little school chums that all the evidence available combined with simple mechanical principles proved beyond reasonable doubt that Santa Claus did not in fact exist and that it would have been scientifically unfeasible for his sleigh to circumnavigate the globe in 24 hrs and deliver presents to over 7.1 billion expectant folk without anybody hearing or seeing him.

For my part I'll hang up my stocking on Christmas Eve, snuggle down in the duvet and put my trust in belief and hope.

Edited 22 December, 2021 by Charlie Wayman

[Billy the Kidd]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

I imagine in your childhood you delighted in pointing out to your little school chums that all the evidence available combined with simple mechanical principles proved beyond reasonable doubt that Santa Claus did not in fact exist and that it would have been scientifically unfeasible for his sleigh to circumnavigate the globe in 24 hrs and deliver presents to over 7.1 billion expectant folk without anybody hearing or seeing him.

For my part I'll hang up my stocking on Christmas Eve, snuggle down in the duvet and put my trust in belief and hope.

I imagine MLG will reply something like…

 

I dont believe the world’s population was 7.1 billion when I was a little boy.

Also, some of the population at the time would not have been visited by Santa, due to cultural/religious beliefs.

 

Or something like that.

[Matthew Le God]

23 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

I imagine in your childhood you delighted in pointing out to your little school chums that all the evidence available combined with simple mechanical principles proved beyond reasonable doubt that Santa Claus did not in fact exist and that it would have been scientifically unfeasible for his sleigh to circumnavigate the globe in 24 hrs and deliver presents to over 7.1 billion expectant folk without anybody hearing or seeing him.

For my part I'll hang up my stocking on Christmas Eve, snuggle down in the duvet and put my trust in belief and hope.

Why put trust in 'belief and hope' rather than things that manifest in reality?

[revolution saint]

8 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why put trust in 'belief and hope' rather than things that manifest in reality?

My christmas wish is for you to find God, go on, let him in to your heart.  You know you want to really.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why put trust in 'belief and hope' rather than things that manifest in reality?

We all live with hope. Show me a person who says that they've never crossed their fingers, or taken a chance and hoped for the right outcome, and I'll show you a liar. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why put trust in 'belief and hope' rather than things that manifest in reality?

Hang on, are you saying there's no Santa?

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why put trust in 'belief and hope' rather than things that manifest in reality?

Do you never have any hope or belief before kick off at a Saints match before 'things' manifest in reality?

If not, your life must be worse than you portray on here....

[badgerx16]

27 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Hang on, are you saying there's no Santa?

He has never been to MLG's house because he is permanently on the naughty list.

[Matthew Le God]

32 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Hang on, are you saying there's no Santa?

 

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

He has never been to MLG's house because he is permanently on the naughty list.

I don't have a chimney.

[teamsaint]

5 hours ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Well said. I worked for the NHS for 17 years pre-Covid. Labour and Tory governments have increased management on huge salaries whilst nurses and midwives are desperately short staffed and have their salaries either frozen or grudgingly awarded a 1-2% pay rise. I agree that they are long overdue for a radical overhaul from top to bottom. So many more people are testing these days so more testing will throw up more positive results but fewer cases are needing hospital treatment. What Boris must tackle are the unvaccinated. I listened to an ICU doctor being interviewed and he said all his patients on intensive care at the moment are  unvaccinated. They don't want to put anything like the vaccine in their body. However, if they catch Covid and end up in hospital they will be bombarded with a huge amount of drugs all with side effects. Where is the logic? Footballers need to roll their sleeves up and get their jabs. If a club can't field a team because of Covid they should forfeit the game with 3 points going to their opponents. Anti-vaxxers should be denied access to sports and entertainment venues. Start being strict on these snowflakes and denying them their freedom and see how many of them still don't want the vaccine? I am triple jabbed and take sensible precautions so I don't see why I should live any more of my life stuck indoors because of the selfish, irresponsible ones amongst us. 

The problem with all of these anecdotal “ 90% of our patients are unvaccinated “ stories is that they simply do not remotely fit the actual UKHSA data, which has current covid attributed deaths as 75% vaccinated.

As for vaccine passports,we should be very careful what we wish for . There is no end point, and no guarantee at all that Digital ID , which is certainly the endgame , will stop at punishing the  covid unvaccinated.Sooner  or later, they will move on to other targets. Definitely not a risk worth taking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uk-digital-identity-and-attributes-trust-framework

 

Edited 22 December, 2021 by teamsaint

[Weston Super Saint]

6 minutes ago, teamsaint said:

The problem with all of these anecdotal “ 90% of our patients are unvaccinated “ stories is that they simply do not remotely fit the actual UKHSA data, which has current covid attributed deaths as 75% vaccinated.

As for vaccine passports,we should be very careful what we wish for . There is no end point, and no guarantee at all that Digital ID , which is certainly the endgame , will stop at punishing the  covid unvaccinated.Sooner  or later, they will move on to other targets. Definitely not a risk worth taking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uk-digital-identity-and-attributes-trust-framework

 

Haveyou got a link to this data?

[teamsaint]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Haveyou got a link to this data?

This is last weeks vaccine surveillance report.

Tables 8, 9 and 10 for cases, hospitalisations and  deaths https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041593/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-50.pdf

[Weston Super Saint]

13 minutes ago, teamsaint said:

This is last weeks vaccine surveillance report.

Tables 8, 9 and 10 for cases, hospitalisations and  deaths https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1041593/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-50.pdf

Cheers, interesting reading, still lacking a little context as mentioned in the footnote :

Quote

1 In the context of very high vaccine coverage in the population, even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of cases, hospitalisations and deaths would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated and no vaccine is 100% effective. This is especially true because vaccination has been prioritised in individuals who are more susceptible or more at risk of severe disease. Individuals in risk groups may also be more at risk of hospitalisation or death due to non-COVID-19 causes, and thus may be hospitalised or die with COVID-19 rather than because of COVID-19.

Also, when it comes to 'deaths' themselves, the stats show for anyone under the age of 50 it is considerably less than 50% of patients dying with / of Covid.

Edited 22 December, 2021 by Weston Super Saint

[Dark Munster]

7 hours ago, Noodles34 said:

But that’s not happening is it? The numbers aren’t increasing whatsoever. At what point do we call this variant as what it is, pretty much a flu virus. So if it kills less than 20k, then it’s actually safer than the annual winter flu.  

Sigh. For the umpteenth time, deaths are the tip of the iceberg. It's the long Covid (organ damage, possibly permanent) that's the major concern (along with overflowing hospitals). Now omicron may hopefully result in lower long Covid cases, but the jury's still out on that.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Dark Munster said:

Sigh. For the umpteenth time, deaths are the tip of the iceberg. It's the long Covid (organ damage, possibly permanent) that's the major concern (along with overflowing hospitals). Now omicron may hopefully result in lower long Covid cases, but the jury's still out on that.

Yep. The focus throughout has been cases and deaths, not what people can be left with. I know people of a variety of ages left with long Covid, type 1 diabetes, arthritis, neurological issues, auto immune disease, etc. And some people still liken it to flu (although have never probably had actual flu). 

[Matthew Le God]

18 hours ago, Noodles34 said:

But that’s not happening is it? The numbers aren’t increasing whatsoever. At what point do we call this variant as what it is, pretty much a flu virus. So if it kills less than 20k, then it’s actually safer than the annual winter flu.  

No, because the numbers are reduced due to mask wearing, social distancing etc. We don't do those things for annual flu.

Edited 23 December, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[AlexLaw76]

Wales have actually gone full 'lunatic"

 

[Whitey Grandad]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. The focus throughout has been cases and deaths, not what people can be left with. I know people of a variety of ages left with long Covid, type 1 diabetes, arthritis, neurological issues, auto immune disease, etc. And some people still liken it to flu (although have never probably had actual flu). 

There are plenty of people suffering from these conditions who have never had Covid yet the emphasis on combatting it has diverted resources away from them.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

There are plenty of people suffering from these conditions who have never had Covid yet the emphasis on combatting it has diverted resources away from them.

Yes, but that's not relevant to what covid can cause. My point is that the emphasis on case numbers is pointless as everyone is testing so there'll be more positives, and the emphasis on deaths but ignoring the health issues that people can be left with is equally unhelpful. 

[adrian lord]

Now that it’s becoming increasingly clear that omicron is a run-out, end of-the-pandemic-proper variant as the virus fades into being one of the harmless background coronaviruses along with the common cold, I see that the covid fanatics and mask fetishists are desperately trying to shift the doom and fear narrative onto the myth of ‘Long Covid’. It’s been the same pattern as every wave has faded. 

Yet even the NHS’ own description of it is not exactly compelling:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/long-term-effects-of-coronavirus-long-covid/

It’s the new M.E./chronic fatigue syndrome.
Every generation has its own somatisation disorder. Before ME it was Briquet’s Syndrome, before that, neurasthenia, and so on.

Edited 23 December, 2021 by adrian lord

[Ex Lion Tamer]

6 hours ago, teamsaint said:

The problem with all of these anecdotal “ 90% of our patients are unvaccinated “ stories is that they simply do not remotely fit the actual UKHSA data, which has current covid attributed deaths as 75% vaccinated.

As for vaccine passports,we should be very careful what we wish for . There is no end point, and no guarantee at all that Digital ID , which is certainly the endgame , will stop at punishing the  covid unvaccinated.Sooner  or later, they will move on to other targets. Definitely not a risk worth taking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uk-digital-identity-and-attributes-trust-framework

 

These figures are out of the total population rather than just those who have got covid. In reality a higher % of people who get covid would die

Edited 23 December, 2021 by Ex Lion Tamer

[East Kent Saint]

17 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Are you suggesting it is not a mild illness, generally?

The jury is out , time will tell despite everyone saying it is too early to tell the severity the usual press are headlining that it is a mild version as a fact . This may all change after the xmas weekend and Boris can boast he made xmas happen this year . I am hoping that we are seeing the begining of the end of covid and not yet another false dawn .

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, egg said:

Yes, but that's not relevant to what covid can cause. My point is that the emphasis on case numbers is pointless as everyone is testing so there'll be more positives, and the emphasis on deaths but ignoring the health issues that people can be left with is equally unhelpful. 

Is long covid still an issue for those that have been vaccinated, after all, the vaccines are supposed to significantly reduce the risk of serious illness / hospitalisations, or does it mainly affect those who were infected pre-vaccines?

[egg]

45 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Is long covid still an issue for those that have been vaccinated, after all, the vaccines are supposed to significantly reduce the risk of serious illness / hospitalisations, or does it mainly affect those who were infected pre-vaccines?

Seems to be. I've got a colleague still suffering ages after he had it. Young, fit, double vaccinated. Someone posted a link above to the NHS website with a list of long Covid symptoms. I know people who've had/still have all of them between them. Those symptomsIare horrid, and I don't get why people (not directed at you) are trying hard to minimise something based on what they hope the reality is, not what it actually is. 

[goodymatt]

Does anyone know how this Covid declaration thing works?

I’ve got 3 tickets to Wolves away (should a potential circuit breaker not close the stadium). One of the tickets I purchased with my Dad’s supporter number but he can’t go now and my friend wants to take the ticket.

We are all triple jabbed and have Covid passes we can show at the stadium, but I can’t register a declaration against my friends name on the Saints OS as the ticket was purchased against a different supporter number/name.

Would that info even make it to wolves on the day or will they just check Covid passes and let him in? Appreciate this is a new process so maybe I’m not the only one wondering how this works and if I need to call saints and make changes? TIA

[Noodles34]

26 minutes ago, goodymatt said:

Does anyone know how this Covid declaration thing works?

I’ve got 3 tickets to Wolves away (should a potential circuit breaker not close the stadium). One of the tickets I purchased with my Dad’s supporter number but he can’t go now and my friend wants to take the ticket.

We are all triple jabbed and have Covid passes we can show at the stadium, but I can’t register a declaration against my friends name on the Saints OS as the ticket was purchased against a different supporter number/name.

Would that info even make it to wolves on the day or will they just check Covid passes and let him in? Appreciate this is a new process so maybe I’m not the only one wondering how this works and if I need to call saints and make changes? TIA

not sure anyone's going to help you until you change your profile picture mate.

[goodymatt]

27 minutes ago, Noodles34 said:

not sure anyone's going to help you until you change your profile picture mate.

They’ve removed the function to change it unless you sign up to the paid membership. I’d like to change it, but I’m not paying a fiver for the privilege!

[FarehamSaintJames]

Wolves v Watford and Liverpool v Leeds both postponed on Boxing Day due to COVID cases.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2426454?sf252380070=1

Edited 23 December, 2021 by FarehamSaintJames

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Wales have actually gone full 'lunatic"

 

You can get a fine for going to work, but can go to the pub. Some Taff was on the radio saying he was going to work remotely in the pub, wondering what plod would do. 

[whelk]

22 minutes ago, FarehamSaintJames said:

Wolves v Watford and Liverpool v Leeds both postponed on Boxing Day due to COVID cases.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/2426454?sf252380070=1

These clubs love the get out judging by the constant whinging about the poor cupcakes having to play two games in 3 days and how no one is thinking of the players. Personally I couldn’t give a fuck and played 2 games a weekend for years and no one paid me £60k.

True victims are the poor fantasy football managers.

Edited 23 December, 2021 by whelk

[Noodles34]

1 hour ago, goodymatt said:

They’ve removed the function to change it unless you sign up to the paid membership. I’d like to change it, but I’m not paying a fiver for the privilege!

Fair enough, a bit crap really. Anyway, wouldn’t worry about details mate,  we went to palace  and weren’t even covid checked. Just leave them with original details, they aren’t going to be checking ID. 

[Sarnia Cherie]

19 hours ago, teamsaint said:

The problem with all of these anecdotal “ 90% of our patients are unvaccinated “ stories is that they simply do not remotely fit the actual UKHSA data, which has current covid attributed deaths as 75% vaccinated.

As for vaccine passports,we should be very careful what we wish for . There is no end point, and no guarantee at all that Digital ID , which is certainly the endgame , will stop at punishing the  covid unvaccinated.Sooner  or later, they will move on to other targets. Definitely not a risk worth taking.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uk-digital-identity-and-attributes-trust-framework

 

This 'anecdotal story' as you call it came from a doctor working on an intensive care ward in a hospital in the south of England. He is at the sharp end of this virus every day and he is just saying what it is like for him. If he tells me 90% of his Covid patients are unvaccinated that's good enough for me. Government figures are often shown to be inaccurate.

[teamsaint]

1 hour ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

This 'anecdotal story' as you call it came from a doctor working on an intensive care ward in a hospital in the south of England. He is at the sharp end of this virus every day and he is just saying what it is like for him. If he tells me 90% of his Covid patients are unvaccinated that's good enough for me. Government figures are often shown to be inaccurate.

You either try to find reliable stats or you don’t. Anecdotal doesn’t mean false. It just means it is a single report based on personal experience, and  presented in a very particular way. I’m not questioning his personal report, just its context.

At present the UKHSA data in  the vaccine surveillance report looks to be one of the more reliable sources of data that we have.

I’ll stick with the data for now, even with its flaws.

[Whitey Grandad]

22 minutes ago, teamsaint said:

You either try to find reliable stats or you don’t. Anecdotal doesn’t mean false. It just means it is a single report based on personal experience, and  presented in a very particular way. I’m not questioning his personal report, just its context.

At present the UKHSA data in  the vaccine surveillance report looks to be one of the more reliable sources of data that we have.

I’ll stick with the data for now, even with its flaws.

That's only true if you know and understand what it actually means. In your case this is not the case.

[egg]

Pep now mentioning players striking. They get no sympathy from me. 25 man squads, plus u23 teams. Mix the teams up and get on with it, unless there really is no way of putting 18 names down from that mix of players. 

[East Kent Saint]

2 hours ago, teamsaint said:

You either try to find reliable stats or you don’t. Anecdotal doesn’t mean false. It just means it is a single report based on personal experience, and  presented in a very particular way. I’m not questioning his personal report, just its context.

At present the UKHSA data in  the vaccine surveillance report looks to be one of the more reliable sources of data that we have.

I’ll stick with the data for now, even with its flaws.

It wasn’t a single report it was … never mind …. It was actual people doing the actual job telling you how it actually was , not a load of debatable stats .

[Turkish]

Sounds like hospital is the last place you want to be https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10339555/Two-thirds-new-Covid-hospital-patients-England-tested-positive-admitted.html

[AlexLaw76]

10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Sounds like hospital is the last place you want to be https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10339555/Two-thirds-new-Covid-hospital-patients-England-tested-positive-admitted.html

You watch. The narrative will slowly pivot to anyone with a sniffle is a risk and we need more jabs asap. 

This will be despite nothing really changing on hospitalisations and deaths. 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

You watch. The narrative will slowly pivot to anyone with a sniffle is a risk and we need more jabs asap. 

This will be despite nothing really changing on hospitalisations and deaths. 

It already is

https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/23/half-of-colds-are-actually-covid-warn-experts-15817215/

This “variant” is absolutely nothing like the original one or any other one and is exactly like colds that people get this time of year 🤔

Edited 23 December, 2021 by Turkish

[whelk]

42 minutes ago, egg said:

Pep now mentioning players striking. They get no sympathy from me. 25 man squads, plus u23 teams. Mix the teams up and get on with it, unless there really is no way of putting 18 names down from that mix of players. 

I literally cannot think of any profession I would be less sympathetic towards. Why doesn’t one of the reporters challenge these pampered managers to stop moaning and get on with it. So what if the sports scientist reports a player is at at 89%. We don’t give a fuck. I woudl be more sympathetic to smaller clubs’ plights but Klopp, Tuchel and Pep just shut up

[whelk]

7 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It already is

https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/23/half-of-colds-are-actually-covid-warn-experts-15817215/

This “variant” is absolutely nothing like the original one or any other one and is exactly like colds that people get this time of year 🤔

I expect that super cold you lot were bleating about a while back was a version of covid undetected by tests

[egg]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

I literally cannot think of any profession I would be less sympathetic towards. Why doesn’t one of the reporters challenge these pampered managers to stop moaning and get on with it. So what if the sports scientist reports a player is at at 89%. We don’t give a fuck. I woudl be more sympathetic to smaller clubs’ plights but Klopp, Tuchel and Pep just shut up

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Pampered primadonas. Massive clubs with 25 great players, plus shit loads of u23 players to bolster the squad. So they've got to play a few kids, just get on with it. Leeds have 5 cases amongst staff and players. That's no reason to not play.

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

I expect that super cold you lot were bleating about a while back was a version of covid undetected by tests

Probably, seeing as how it was identical to when I had covid in the summer. Which was basically a cold.

Edited 23 December, 2021 by Turkish

[AlexLaw76]

19 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It already is

https://metro.co.uk/2021/12/23/half-of-colds-are-actually-covid-warn-experts-15817215/

This “variant” is absolutely nothing like the original one or any other one and is exactly like colds that people get this time of year 🤔

Incredible that Scotland and Wales are actually being forced with further restrictions 

All very weird 

 

[teamsaint]

3 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

That's only true if you know and understand what it actually means. In your case this is not the case.

I’m looking forward to you pointing out any substantial errors in anything that I have posted, 

 

1 hour ago, East Kent Saint said:

It wasn’t a single report it was … never mind …. It was actual people doing the actual job telling you how it actually was , not a load of debatable stats .

As you choose to describe what is probably  the best data that we have as “ a load of debatable stats”, there probably isn”t worthwhile further discussion to be had.

[LiberalCommunist]

There is nothing to fear, but fear itself. 

[East Kent Saint]

38 minutes ago, teamsaint said:

I’m looking forward to you pointing out any substantial errors in anything that I have posted, 

 

As you choose to describe what is probably  the best data that we have as “ a load of debatable stats”, there probably isn”t worthwhile further discussion to be had.

As with all stats it depends on what criteria is used to produce them . Death rates are people who have tested positive within 28 days of death . As said on here it includes people who were on the way out before they tested positive or caught covid while being treated in hospital for other illnesses etc. So the headline stats we are being exposed to require a bit of balance and analysis which is the point of my post.

[whelk]

45 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

There is nothing to fear, but fear itself. 

Peter Ustinov?