COVID and Football (Merged)

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Well the problem is covid on top of all the other things. And ultimately if hospitals are overwhelmed they're overwhelmed.

It is true that we'd be in a better position if the Tories hadn't been underfunding the NHS for the last decade

They were worried about them being overwhelmed in 2019, before anyone had heard of covid 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/02/nhs-winter-crisis-extra-beds-created-by-52-per-cent-of-uk-hospitals

It was apparently overwhelmed in January 2018 as well where there were going to be 50000 excess flu deaths. How did we cope?!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/flu-vaccine-deaths-nhs-ineffective-crisis-bad-weather-illness-2017-a8660496.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html

Oh wait it was in 2017 too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38853707

but surely it was fine in 2016? 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/10/nhs-hospitals-overwhelmed-patients-could-die-top-doctor

Oh it wasn’t….

Edited 18 December, 2021 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Those illnesses are different because the vaccines are 100% effective. Coronaviruses and flu mutate all the time, meaning we have to keep updating the vaccines (like we do with flu) and accept getting infected on a regular basis (like the common cold, which is causes by other coronaviruses)

I know!

I wasn't the one who brought up herd immunity, merely pointed out that it is broken (or certainly the perception of it!).

There is no "super immunity" as you claimed - Charles Le Clerc has tested positive for the second time in 2021 as I'm sure many others have as well, in the same way that you can catch a cold twice in a year.

As I have shown from the figures posted earlier, the vaccine IS working to reduce the number of hospitalisations and deaths. We don't know for sure as it isn't included in the figures, but are the hospitalisations from non vaccinated people? If so, the answer is very simple (should the NHS be overwhelmed).

[Ex Lion Tamer]

42 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I know!

I wasn't the one who brought up herd immunity, merely pointed out that it is broken (or certainly the perception of it!).

There is no "super immunity" as you claimed - Charles Le Clerc has tested positive for the second time in 2021 as I'm sure many others have as well, in the same way that you can catch a cold twice in a year.

As I have shown from the figures posted earlier, the vaccine IS working to reduce the number of hospitalisations and deaths. We don't know for sure as it isn't included in the figures, but are the hospitalisations from non vaccinated people? If so, the answer is very simple (should the NHS be overwhelmed).

The point is that we'll never develop enough immunity to stop catching the virus altogether, but we will develop enough immunity to stop having to be hospitalised in such large numbers. Vaccines have taken us a long way towards that, but we need infection-related immunity on top to be able to get back to normal

[Wade Garrett]

The early signs are that the latest variant is less harmful but more transmissible.  Apparently this is the way viruses work.

For the vast majority surely it is good that the virus is going this way.

We have to learn to live with it.  The scientists are being very cautious, maybe overly.  I can’t blame them for that at the moment, until they are sure that the mutation is less harmful.  But  I don’t think people who have had all the jabs (me included) are going to spend much longer obeying restrictive directives

 

[East Kent Saint]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Who is saying this?  I cannot find anything definitive that states that anywhere - plenty of 'we're not sure, we need more data' (and rightly so), but no definitive statements.

True there are no definitive statements but in SA they are saying that so many people have had covid previously that when they caught the latest Omicron version they had a protection that led to the milder symptoms . In the UK they say there is no evidence so far that it is milder in the UK but time will tell. THe lockdown after xmas was in the news today , obviously that will not be confirmed until the last minute . How long before covid is under covid is under control was suggested in the past week or so .

[Wade Garrett]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I know!

I wasn't the one who brought up herd immunity, merely pointed out that it is broken (or certainly the perception of it!).

There is no "super immunity" as you claimed - Charles Le Clerc has tested positive for the second time in 2021 as I'm sure many others have as well, in the same way that you can catch a cold twice in a year.

As I have shown from the figures posted earlier, the vaccine IS working to reduce the number of hospitalisations and deaths. We don't know for sure as it isn't included in the figures, but are the hospitalisations from non vaccinated people? If so, the answer is very simple (should the NHS be overwhelmed).

I would be very interested in that statistic.

[East Kent Saint]

9 hours ago, JRM said:

Interesting coverage of the election result assuming the big loss for the Conservatives is down to Boris and the Christmas party / sleaze, virtually no mention of the winning party Liberal Democrats who notably were the only party who said they would not back vaccine passports. 

No mention of it at all before or after the vote so just you then ?

[SaintsLoyal]

11 hours ago, RedArmy said:

Yeah but it’s for “the greater good”
 

🐑 🐑🐑

You just need a negative LFT its no big deal and to try and create a safer environment is better than closing it. 

[JRM]

1 hour ago, East Kent Saint said:

No mention of it at all before or after the vote so just you then ?

Not sure what you're saying? 

First election since the vaccine passports vote and the only party to see a growth in their vote share was the one party who's official policy was to oppose vaccine passports, that's a fact. 

[Lighthouse]

17 minutes ago, JRM said:

Not sure what you're saying? 

First election since the vaccine passports vote and the only party to see a growth in their vote share was the one party who's official policy was to oppose vaccine passports, that's a fact. 

Ahhh, the old Lib Dem paradox. Like the chairman of Port Vale promising their fans they will never join the European Super League.

[SW5 SAINT]

I think that if the fans have to show a COVID pass to get into a stadium, the players should also…..

[Turkish]

South Africa reporting only 1.7% of people with omicron admitted to hospital a country where only 36% of the population are vaccinated. Also it appears infections are dropping and they are past the peak. Not here though, tens of thousands will die, 5000 hospitalisations a day. Millions infected a day by January. 

[RedArmy]

5 minutes ago, Turkish said:

South Africa reporting only 1.7% of people with omicron admitted to hospital a country where only 36% of the population are vaccinated. Also it appears infections are dropping and they are past the peak. Not here though, tens of thousands will die, 5000 hospitalisations a day. Millions infected a day by January. 

It’s like snow, we’ve got the wrong type of omicron. 

[adrian lord]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

They were worried about them being overwhelmed in 2019, before anyone had heard of covid 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/02/nhs-winter-crisis-extra-beds-created-by-52-per-cent-of-uk-hospitals

It was apparently overwhelmed in January 2018 as well where there were going to be 50000 excess flu deaths. How did we cope?!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/flu-vaccine-deaths-nhs-ineffective-crisis-bad-weather-illness-2017-a8660496.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/03/world/europe/uk-national-health-service.html

Oh wait it was in 2017 too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38853707

but surely it was fine in 2016? 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/mar/10/nhs-hospitals-overwhelmed-patients-could-die-top-doctor

Oh it wasn’t….

Now that the public is used to it and very many apparently loving it, they will be pushing for mask mandates and restrictions and even lockdowns every January from now on for the seasonal virus season, in order to 'protect' the NHS, long after the pandemic is over. 

[Weston Super Saint]

22 minutes ago, Turkish said:

South Africa reporting only 1.7% of people with omicron admitted to hospital a country where only 36% of the population are vaccinated. Also it appears infections are dropping and they are past the peak. Not here though, tens of thousands will die, 5000 hospitalisations a day. Millions infected a day by January. 

Just a thought....

Didn't Boris madly proudly exclaim when the vaccines were first developed that the UK had secured three times as many as it needed to vaccinate the population?

Nothing like a bit of fear mongering to 'encourage' everyone to get their 'booster' / third jab to use up the stocks we've had to pay for before they go out of date  

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, adrian lord said:

Now that the public is used to it and very many apparently loving it, they will be pushing for mask mandates and restrictions and even lockdowns every January from now on for the seasonal virus season, in order to 'protect' the NHS, long after the pandemic is over. 

Definitely cheaper than fixing the issues with the NHS to stop it being overwhelmed....

[AlexLaw76]

26 minutes ago, Turkish said:

South Africa reporting only 1.7% of people with omicron admitted to hospital a country where only 36% of the population are vaccinated. Also it appears infections are dropping and they are past the peak. Not here though, tens of thousands will die, 5000 hospitalisations a day. Millions infected a day by January. 

Yes, but SAGE still do not have enough data.  So better destroy people's lives some more, just in case

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Yes, but SAGE still do not have enough data.  So better destroy people's lives some more, just in case

If you look at the potential of what this virus could do they have little option but to take precautions, no point crying like a baby over it.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, aintforever said:

If you look at the potential of what this virus could do they have little option but to take precautions, no point crying like a baby over it.

Are you suggesting SA authorities are not?

What is the exit strategy? Will this be a thing every winter now?

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, aintforever said:

If you look at the potential of what this virus could do they have little option but to take precautions, no point crying like a baby over it.

Does it still have the potential?

If so, what was the point of spending billions of pounds on vaccines?

[aintforever]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Are you suggesting SA authorities are not?

What is the exit strategy? Will this be a thing every winter now?

I reckon we will see vaccines every year at winter for a good few years, immunity will build up over time and eventually it will become endemic like the common cold.

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Does it still have the potential?

If so, what was the point of spending billions of pounds on vaccines?

That is a bizarre and deeply flawed statement! The vaccines help reduce the impact, because they don't remove the threat completely doesn't mean there is no point in the vaccines. They still help significantly!

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Does it still have the potential?

If so, what was the point of spending billions of pounds on vaccines?

Vaccines protect you but the effect wanes over time, it’s quite easy to understand.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, aintforever said:

Vaccines protect you but the effect wanes over time, it’s quite easy to understand.

Lockdown/restrictions most winters then!

Edited 18 December, 2021 by AlexLaw76

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Vaccines protect you but the effect wanes over time, it’s quite easy to understand.

Horseshit!

I had a polio vaccine when I was about 1 year old.  Has that waned over time?

[Weston Super Saint]

3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

That is a bizarre and deeply flawed statement! The vaccines help reduce the impact, because they don't remove the threat completely doesn't mean there is no point in the vaccines. They still help significantly!

This is a bizarre post and shows you haven't understood the post you are quoting.

If you look closely the post contains two QUESTIONS and zero STATEMENTS.

[aintforever]

Just now, AlexLaw76 said:

Lockdown/restrictions most winters then!

Quite possibly for a while, it’s depends how much it mutates and how much immunity builds up I suppose.

As I understand it some types of common cold are a Coronavirus, but we’ve been exposed to it our whole lives so it doesn’t kill us, the longer we are exposed to covid the more immune we get.

[Lighthouse]

40 minutes ago, Turkish said:

South Africa reporting only 1.7% of people with omicron admitted to hospital a country where only 36% of the population are vaccinated. Also it appears infections are dropping and they are past the peak. Not here though, tens of thousands will die, 5000 hospitalisations a day. Millions infected a day by January. 

The Uk reported it’s first covid case on 31st January and the first death wasn’t recorded until the first week of March. It’s too early to draw any conclusions yet, even in South Africa.

[aintforever]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Horseshit!

I had a polio vaccine when I was about 1 year old.  Has that waned over time?

Covid is obviously different.

[Matthew Le God]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Horseshit!

I had a polio vaccine when I was about 1 year old.  Has that waned over time?

Yes, it has waned. But your risk of exposure to polioviruses in the United Kingdom is minimal. The NHS recommends if you go to certain countries and haven't had a booster in 10 years you should do so. Plus in any case, different viruses are different shocker!

Edited 18 December, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Lighthouse]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Horseshit!

I had a polio vaccine when I was about 1 year old.  Has that waned over time?

I’ve got my RYA1 sailing qualification, why should I have to pass a driving test?

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Covid is obviously different.

Cracking answer!

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

I’ve got my RYA1 sailing qualification, which should I have to pass a driving test?

Odd.

I think you're assuming I'm saying a polio vaccination will protect against aids or TB or Measles, which I'm not.

[Matthew Le God]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

This is a bizarre post and shows you haven't understood the post you are quoting.

If you look closely the post contains two QUESTIONS and zero STATEMENTS.

The two questions when combined effectively become a statement that you think vaccines remove potential danger completely and there is no point in vaccines if it isn't 100% effective. 

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

That is a bizarre and deeply flawed statement! The vaccines help reduce the impact, because they don't remove the threat completely doesn't mean there is no point in the vaccines. They still help significantly!

Metaphor to explain vaccines. Seat belts don’t stop you having a car crash but they stop you going through the windscreen

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The Uk reported it’s first covid case on 31st January and the first death wasn’t recorded until the first week of March. It’s too early to draw any conclusions yet, even in South Africa.

You can have you’re own lockdown if you want too mate you don’t have to involve the rest of us 

[Weston Super Saint]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

The two questions when combined effectively become a statement that you think vaccines remove potential danger completely and there is no point in vaccines if it isn't 100% effective. 

Questions aren't statements Matty, they're questions.  There's a clue in the name.

As for the rest of it, that's not what I'm saying at all.  I've already stated (and also posted links to the Govt website) that show that vaccinations HAVE helped to reduce the risk of serious illness and hospitalisations. 

I had my booster yesterday, so don't be thinking I'm in the vaccine denial camp either!

Aintclever stated that the virus still had the same 'potential' that it did when it first arrived.  I am simply questioning why he assumes that given that 89% of the population have had one jab and over 80% have had two - which will massively REDUCE the potential for the virus to cause serious harm / hospitalise most people.

So, back to the question, why does Aintclever think that the potential is still the same, and if he truly does think that, then what does he think was the point of vaccinating 89% of the population?

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

You can have you’re own lockdown if you want too mate you don’t have to involve the rest of us 

I haven’t advocated for a lockdown at any point in the last 6 months. Quite the opposite, I wanted to go skiing in France in January. Not happening now though. We’re all hoping this is some benign mutation which just gives everyone a cough and a runny nose but right now it’s far too early to say anything definitive. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

I haven’t advocated for a lockdown at any point in the last 6 months. Quite the opposite, I wanted to go skiing in France in January. Not happening now though. We’re all hoping this is some benign mutation which just gives everyone a cough and a runny nose but right now it’s far too early to say anything definitive. 

No need to worry, 'experts' are predicting snow in the UK over Xmas and we've been told to trust those guys implicitly, so you can go skiing over here  

[The Kraken]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No need to worry, 'experts' are predicting snow in the UK over Xmas and we've been told to trust those guys implicitly, so you can go skiing over here  

Need to install some chairlifts pronto.

[The Left Back]

15 minutes ago, whelk said:

Metaphor to explain vaccines. Seat belts don’t stop you having a car crash but they stop you going through the windscreen

I like the metaphor.  I'll take it for a spin (excuse the pun).  No doubt seat belts increase death and serious injuries.  But do they increase car crashes because drivers feel safer and therefore drive with less fear?  Or do they reduce car crashes because the seatbelt reminds drivers that driving can be dangerous? 

While I'm here (and to make the most of my 3 posts)...

I'm all for vaccines, I'm triple jabbed and not feeling concerned about carrying on as usual.  I'm sad that so many are still traumatised by the last 20 months and I'm angry that we have a government entirely unfit for leading us through this.

The bigger issue at our hospital at the moment is the number of staff in isolation.  Covid patients are low in number. They are split between those in hospital for other reasons who happen to test positive and those actually suffering as a result of Covid.  Of the second group the vast majority are unvaccinated.  I think it was Joe Biden who said this is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated.  The testing and isolation rules are now, in my opinion, causing much of the problem.  I'd move to testing only those with symptoms and having isolation shortened to 5 days.

Edited 18 December, 2021 by The Left Back

[Ex Lion Tamer]

16 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Questions aren't statements Matty, they're questions.  There's a clue in the name.

As for the rest of it, that's not what I'm saying at all.  I've already stated (and also posted links to the Govt website) that show that vaccinations HAVE helped to reduce the risk of serious illness and hospitalisations. 

I had my booster yesterday, so don't be thinking I'm in the vaccine denial camp either!

Aintclever stated that the virus still had the same 'potential' that it did when it first arrived.  I am simply questioning why he assumes that given that 89% of the population have had one jab and over 80% have had two - which will massively REDUCE the potential for the virus to cause serious harm / hospitalise most people.

So, back to the question, why does Aintclever think that the potential is still the same, and if he truly does think that, then what does he think was the point of vaccinating 89% of the population?

The vaccine has massively reduced the danger but so many more people are going to get it now, so the load on the NHS could end up the same.

Example: these figures are made up but explain the principle:

10,000 cases leads to 1,000 hospitalisations before vaccines. NHS overloaded.

10,000 cases leads to 100 hospitalisations after vaccines. NHS not overloaded.

100,000 cases leads to 1,000 hospitalisations after vaccines. NHS overloaded.

 

Edited 18 December, 2021 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Turkish]

52 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Yes, but SAGE still do not have enough data.  So better destroy people's lives some more, just in case

Enough data to model worst case scenarios and scare some, that’s all they need

let’s also not forget that the originally modelling and advice to lock down came from someone who didn’t think it applied to them as they carried on meeting up with their mistress….

Edited 18 December, 2021 by Turkish

[Turkish]

27 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I haven’t advocated for a lockdown at any point in the last 6 months. Quite the opposite, I wanted to go skiing in France in January. Not happening now though. We’re all hoping this is some benign mutation which just gives everyone a cough and a runny nose but right now it’s far too early to say anything definitive. 

It’s pretty clear from your posts during all this though that you’re not against it and are one of those that is living in fear for the last 21 months 

[Weston Super Saint]

15 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

The vaccine has massively reduced the danger but so many more people are going to get it now, so the load on the NHS could end up the same.

Example: these figures are made up but explain the principle:

10,000 cases leads to 1,000 hospitalisations before vaccines. NHS overloaded.

10,000 cases leads to 100 hospitalisations after vaccines. NHS not overloaded.

100,000 cases leads to 1,000 hospitalisations after vaccines. NHS overloaded.

 

Like I've said before, covid passports for hospitals solves the problem.  Treatment is prioritised by your vaccination status.  If that means the deniers sit in the car park coughing, so be it, it's not like there haven't been plenty of opportunities...

[Weston Super Saint]

23 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

I like the metaphor.  I'll take it for a spin (excuse the pun).  No doubt seat belts increase death and serious injuries.  But do they increase car crashes because drivers feel safer and therefore drive with less fear?  Or do they reduce car crashes because the seatbelt reminds drivers that driving can be dangerous? 

While I'm here (and to make the most of my 3 posts)...

I'm all for vaccines, I'm triple jabbed and not feeling concerned about carrying on as usual.  I'm sad that so many are still traumatised by the last 20 months and I'm angry that we have a government entirely unfit for leading us through this.

The bigger issue at our hospital at the moment is the number of staff in isolation.  Covid patients are low in number. They are split between those in hospital for other reasons who happen to test positive and those actually suffering as a result of Covid.  Of the second group the vast majority are unvaccinated.  I think it was Joe Biden who said this is becoming a pandemic of the unvaccinated.  The testing and isolation rules are now, in my opinion, causing much of the problem.  I'd move to testing only those with symptoms and having isolation shortened to 5 days.

Which is the frustration around the reported figures.  It's not like it would be a major piece of work to report hospitalisations against vaccination status.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Like I've said before, covid passports for hospitals solves the problem.  Treatment is prioritised by your vaccination status.  If that means the deniers sit in the car park coughing, so be it, it's not like there haven't been plenty of opportunities...

It's a solution but I think any government that did it would get voted out by people appalled at the sight of people dying untreated in carparks. And you might even end up with too many vaccinated people going untreated

[aintforever]

44 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Cracking answer!

Not sure what else you want me to say, I seem to need to explain the obvious to you every time.

[aintforever]

9 minutes ago, Turkish said:

It’s pretty clear from your posts during all this though that you’re not against it and are one of those that is living in fear for the last 21 months 

Doesn’t really square with him wanting to fly to France to spend a week sliding down a mountain on a couple of bits of wood.

[waylander]

59 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Cracking answer!

The virus that causes Polio is not a coronavirus. While it does mutate, those mutations do not allow it to evade vaccine-induced immune response.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-14174-2