COVID and Football (Merged)

[egg]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:21, JRM said:

If nothing else the last two years have been a fascinating experiment in human behaviour. A global pandemic of Covid hysteria driven by a coordinated fear campaign in the media. 

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"Experiment" is conspiracy nut talk. It suggests a plan. Nobody has experimented. Sure, people will observe, study, comment, etc, but none of that amounts to an experiment. 

Can't really disagree with the last part though. The media have been pretty disgraceful. 

[teamsaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 19:10, Lighthouse said:

That's total conjecture and based on no information at all. Just a wild assumption. The infection level has fluctuated around a similar for about 4 months now, despite 12% of adults being completely unvaccinated. If everyone WAS vaccinated, the chances are the R number would drop significantly and it may well go away, like every other disease we've successfully vaccinated against.

Complete myth. Anti vaxxers like to see themselves as some sort of freedom fighter, the only ones who are awake to the real information and willing to stand up to some sort of tyrannical government. The only people living in fear are those who are clinically vulnerable - people who's life anti-vaxxers are unwilling to help save because their 'rights' are more important.

Everyone else is bored. Bored of this virus and bored of the fact that we are facing more restrictions because hospitals are filling up with unvaccinated idiots.

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The problem there is that the hospitals have very large numbers of vaccinated people with covid, (approx 65/ 70% of hospitalisations) and that 80% of covid attributed deaths currently are vaccinated. All in the weekly vaccine surveillance report.

As for vaccine passports, which as night follows day will extend into other areas of life, we will all come to wish them gone, and they will be very hard to remove. We should be very careful what we wish for. They are a really terrible development, with no demonstrable public health benefit.Two parliamentary committees found no justification for them.

[Sarisbury Saint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:10, Billy the Kidd said:

How many of the 50k a day who are CoVid positive after a test are unwell?

Not a dig, I’m genuinely interested, as it is something I dont believe I ever have found a stat for that. Out of the positive cases each day, how many are feeling poorly, how many of them need hospital treatment. 

It just seems the only news we get fed are shock headlines, not all that much useful data.

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On the news last night, they quoted a hospital that were treating covid patients and 75% were unvaccinated.

 

[VectisSaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:10, Billy the Kidd said:

How many of the 50k a day who are CoVid positive after a test are unwell?

Not a dig, I’m genuinely interested, as it is something I dont believe I ever have found a stat for that. Out of the positive cases each day, how many are feeling poorly, how many of them need hospital treatment. 

It just seems the only news we get fed are shock headlines, not all that much useful data.

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You just need to look at the stats on the Covid Dashboard, specifically at the Healthcare stats for Patients admitted to Hospital. Running at about 800 [per day at the moment and has been reasonably stable for sometime. Meanwhile infections per day are around 48000 at the moment. There is a lag of between 1 -2 weeks between infection rate and hospitalisation so you can see a broad view of how many infections result in serious illness (serious enough to be admitted to hospital). Back in January there were about 60k cases per day at the peak and over 4000 hospital admissions, so you can see that this serious illness "measure" shows that currently the rate of admission is about 25% of what it was in January before the vaccination program began to ramp up. I don't think there is a stat for "feeling poorly" but to be honest "feeling poorly" is not really the issue. I "felt poorly" yesterday which I put down to reaction to my flu jab last weekend, feel OK today though (also got a neg LFT Covid test yesterday).  

[Billy the Kidd]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:33, Sarisbury Saint said:

On the news last night, they quoted a hospital that were treating covid patients and 75% were unvaccinated.

 

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Ok, that is useful.

But that is just 1 hospital. I know the majority of people in hospital are unvaccinated. That seems to be natural. Although I dont seem to have seen numbers plastered daily in the press/news outlets saying of 5000 people in hospital right now (arbitrary figures) xxx are vaccinated. Would be interesting to know the facts.

And of the 50k cases each day, how many are feeling poorly?

[Billy the Kidd]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:36, VectisSaint said:

You just need to look at the stats on the Covid Dashboard, specifically at the Healthcare stats for Patients admitted to Hospital. Running at about 800 [per day at the moment and has been reasonably stable for sometime. Meanwhile infections per day are around 48000 at the moment. There is a lag of between 1 -2 weeks between infection rate and hospitalisation so you can see a broad view of how many infections result in serious illness (serious enough to be admitted to hospital). Back in January there were about 60k cases per day at the peak and over 4000 hospital admissions, so you can see that this serious illness "measure" shows that currently the rate of admission is about 25% of what it was in January before the vaccination program began to ramp up. I don't think there is a stat for "feeling poorly" but to be honest "feeling poorly" is not really the issue. I "felt poorly" yesterday which I put down to reaction to my flu jab last weekend, feel OK today though (also got a neg LFT Covid test yesterday).  

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Thanks for the info, appreciate you taking the time.

My point is whilst I agree vaccinations have helped reduce the spread, and hospitalisations, and ultimately deaths, the headlines are always focusing on the most shocking statistics. 

4k daily hospitalisations doesn’t really correlate though to 60k cases per day, as in reality there were always far, far more than 60k cases each day, so believe it would be far lower than 25%. You also mention this in Jan 20, when vaccinations had only really started, so we are no where near that position now.

It is valid Q’g why there are no other stats on how many are actually affected by the virus, as it is likely to be well under 10%. It is likely we are getting 100k cases a day just now in reality, with how many going into hospital - a few hundred at best?

[The Kraken]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:38, Billy the Kidd said:

Ok, that is useful.

But that is just 1 hospital. I know the majority of people in hospital are unvaccinated. That seems to be natural. Although I dont seem to have seen numbers plastered daily in the press/news outlets saying of 5000 people in hospital right now (arbitrary figures) xxx are vaccinated. Would be interesting to know the facts.

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Dunno if it’s what you’re after but this was one of the slides given at yesterdays Plan B announcement.

[Charlie Wayman]

  On 09/12/2021 at 17:39, LuckyNumber7 said:

Prejudiced nonsense.

The vaccines help prevent serious illness, they do not stop you catching or spreading covid.

Funny how France has just closed all it's nightclubs for four weeks due to a spike in cases, despite only vaccinated people being allowed in.

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Not funny at all. One suspects that the people doing the check-ins were as lax as their British counterparts and just waved people through so in effect nobody knows how many were actually vaccinated.

[teamsaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:38, Billy the Kidd said:

Ok, that is useful.

But that is just 1 hospital. I know the majority of people in hospital are unvaccinated. That seems to be natural. Although I dont seem to have seen numbers plastered daily in the press/news outlets saying of 5000 people in hospital right now (arbitrary figures) xxx are vaccinated. Would be interesting to know the facts.

And of the 50k cases each day, how many are feeling poorly?

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The weekly vaccine surveillance report has very good information to use. Check table 10 for total numbers of hospitalisation and deaths by age and vaccination status. You need to add up the totals yourself. I suspect that the 500 cases of unvaccinated under 18s needing hospital treatment is a statistical red herring  due to how recently they have been receiving the jab.

 

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1039677/Vaccine_surveillance_report_-_week_49.pdf

 

Edited 9 December, 2021 by teamsaint

[East Kent Saint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:21, JRM said:

If nothing else the last two years have been a fascinating experiment in human behaviour. A global pandemic of Covid hysteria driven by a coordinated fear campaign in the media. 

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Two distant relatives in the USA branch of the family were anti having the vaccine , they weren’t going to allow people to dictate to them . 2 weeks ago they contracted Covid , after a few days of feeling unwell he collapsed and died . They think it was due to blood clots in his lung . His wife is in hospital in an ICU bed (or whatever they call them in the USA) .

[JRM]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:29, egg said:

"Experiment" is conspiracy nut talk. It suggests a plan. Nobody has experimented. Sure, people will observe, study, comment, etc, but none of that amounts to an experiment. 

Can't really disagree with the last part though. The media have been pretty disgraceful. 

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Yes I meant it in retrospective angle, I'm sure psychologists will be studying human behaviour from March 2020 onwards for a long time , I wasn't saying covid was invented to be an experiment in human behaviour but the way the govt have used fear to manage compliance is clear to see. 

 

[aintforever]

  On 09/12/2021 at 21:19, JRM said:

Yes I meant it in retrospective angle, I'm sure psychologists will be studying human behaviour from March 2020 onwards for a long time , I wasn't saying covid was invented to be an experiment in human behaviour but the way the govt have used fear to manage compliance is clear to see. 

 

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The most fascinating bit is why some weirdos choose to put themselves and others in danger by not having the vaccine. 

[Wade Garrett]

  On 09/12/2021 at 14:55, LiberalCommunist said:

Or just allow freedom of choice. That seems more fair. 

The experimental remedy people are spreading it, the same as the unvaccinated. 

Lets back away from tyranny, before its too late.

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Weirdo

[Lighthouse]

  On 09/12/2021 at 19:45, JRM said:

And "people like me" - once again I have never told anyone to not get the vaccine, its completely your choice and I sincerely hope it works well. I'm against coercion, mandates, behavioural scientists dictating govt policy, philanthropic billionaires meddling on health policy that conflicts with their own investment gains. I am in favour of less state control of peoples lives, its not warranted. The direction of travel we are going in is not a good one. 

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Again, all a complete misconception. Nobody who got vaccinated did so because they were hoodwinked by the superior intellect of Boris and chums. We did it because that’s what the overwhelming majority of doctors, scientists and their peer reviewed studies indicate is the best course of action and we aren’t arrogant or obstinate enough to think we know better.

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:31, teamsaint said:

The problem there is that the hospitals have very large numbers of vaccinated people with covid, (approx 65/ 70% of hospitalisations) and that 80% of covid attributed deaths currently are vaccinated. All in the weekly vaccine surveillance report.

As for vaccine passports, which as night follows day will extend into other areas of life, we will all come to wish them gone, and they will be very hard to remove. We should be very careful what we wish for. They are a really terrible development, with no demonstrable public health benefit.Two parliamentary committees found no justification for them.

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Completely false, it’s the other way around. I don’t know which Facebook blog you read than from but it’s more like that percentage of UNvaccinated people in hospital. 12% of adults making up 70% of hospitalisations. Bravo and a slow clap to them.

 

As for vaccine passports, none of that would be needed at all if people would just get vaccinated.

[teamsaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 21:54, Lighthouse said:

Again, all a complete misconception. Nobody who got vaccinated did so because they were hoodwinked by the superior intellect of Boris and chums. We did it because that’s what the overwhelming majority of doctors, scientists and their peer reviewed studies indicate is the best course of action and we aren’t arrogant or obstinate enough to think we know better.

Completely false, it’s the other way around. I don’t know which Facebook blog you read than from but it’s more like that percentage of UNvaccinated people in hospital. 12% of adults making up 70% of hospitalisations. Bravo and a slow clap to them.

 

As for vaccine passports, none of that would be needed at all if people would just get vaccinated.

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You didn't read the vaccine surveillance report, did you ? You know, the UKHSA one.

Please read it properly,it is important. You are just  wrong on this.

Edited 9 December, 2021 by teamsaint

[Warriorsaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:21, JRM said:

If nothing else the last two years have been a fascinating experiment in human behaviour. A global pandemic of Covid hysteria driven by a coordinated fear campaign in the media. 

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Bacofoil on sale at Asda

[Warriorsaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 22:01, teamsaint said:

You didn't read the vaccine surveillance report, did you ? You know, the UKHSA one.

Please read it properly,it is important. You are just  wrong on this.

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Matron bring the doctor, this man needs help.

[Warriorsaint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 11:51, JustinR said:

Then ban chips, smoking, cars and wine. 

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Whatabout whatabout whatabout 

[JRM]

  On 09/12/2021 at 22:11, Warriorsaint said:

Bacofoil on sale at Asda

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[RedArmy]

  On 09/12/2021 at 17:05, Whitey Grandad said:

Anyone who is unvaccinated is a danger to society. 

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 Why? Does our vaccine work or not? If it does work then why does someone unvaccinated make any difference if we’re protected? If it doesn’t work then why does it matter someone hasn’t had it? 

[RedArmy]

  On 09/12/2021 at 21:54, Lighthouse said:

Again, all a complete misconception. Nobody who got vaccinated did so because they were hoodwinked by the superior intellect of Boris and chums. We did it because that’s what the overwhelming majority of doctors, scientists and their peer reviewed studies indicate is the best course of action and we aren’t arrogant or obstinate enough to think we know better.

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Pull the other one. The majority of people under 40 got their vaccine to be able to go on holiday. 

[Saint86]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:31, teamsaint said:

As for vaccine passports, which as night follows day will extend into other areas of life, we will all come to wish them gone, and they will be very hard to remove. We should be very careful what we wish for. They are a really terrible development, with no demonstrable public health benefit. Two parliamentary committees found no justification for them.

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You are of course obviously (except to a notable few on this thread 🙄) right. If people want a vaccine to protect themselves then they should get one, and if others don't feel comfortable getting it then thats their prerogative. Its as simple as that.

People don't have a right to threaten and take away the jobs and societal access of others - in effect making them unable to pay for rent / bills / food etc. or access education. That is the slippery slope we are on (atm for vaccines but what next?) and its fundamentally because they want to force people to get a vaccine that they clearly don't trust to protect themselves 🤦🏼‍♂️). Its absolutely illogical and hypocritical, and the autocratic need to control others like that is blatantly bad for people in this country. 

Edited 10 December, 2021 by Saint86

[Noodles34]

  On 09/12/2021 at 11:30, cloggy saint said:

I'll just leave this here for you  https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

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The fact that someone has designed a website like this puts them in the same category as anti Vaxxers 

Who does something like this, twisted as fuck 

[wild-saint]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:07, Billy the Kidd said:

Joker 🤣

You see, i am double jabbed, and waiting for an invite for my booster.

I dont tell people not to get vaccinated.

I am not a conspiracy theorist.

But suggesting people who dont vaccinate should be treated differently is mental, inhumane, and is actually anti-life.

Doesn’t make people obstinate, just makes you come across as pious and pretty ill educated.

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Totally agree. I’m double vaxxed with booster booked. I’m 100% against vax passports and despair at idiots who confuse anti Vaxxers  with anti vax passports.

Regardless of whether everyone is vaccinated or not we would still be facing these restrictions. 

[egg]

  On 09/12/2021 at 20:07, Billy the Kidd said:

Joker 🤣

You see, i am double jabbed, and waiting for an invite for my booster.

I dont tell people not to get vaccinated.

I am not a conspiracy theorist.

But suggesting people who dont vaccinate should be treated differently is mental, inhumane, and is actually anti-life.

Doesn’t make people obstinate, just makes you come across as pious and pretty ill educated.

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Good post. I'm triple jabbed. I work with an anti vaxer and comfortable that he's no more a risk to me than the jabbed people I work with - all can carry the virus, and contrary to the spin, all would carry the same viral load. Personally I think he's nuts not to have the jabs for his own health, but it's his choice and who am I to argue against his choice. I don't agree that people like him should be ostracised and he'll be welcome at the works Christmas meal the same as anyone else. 

That guy regularly tests. He masks up where he should. That's what keeps me and others safe. It's those who don't do that who are the irresponsible ones that put others in danger. 

[aintforever]

  On 10/12/2021 at 08:23, egg said:

Good post. I'm triple jabbed. I work with an anti vaxer and comfortable that he's no more a risk to me than the jabbed people I work with - all can carry the virus, and contrary to the spin, all would carry the same viral load. Personally I think he's nuts not to have the jabs for his own health, but it's his choice and who am I to argue against his choice. I don't agree that people like him should be ostracised and he'll be welcome at the works Christmas meal the same as anyone else. 

That guy regularly tests. He masks up where he should. That's what keeps me and others safe. It's those who don't do that who are the irresponsible ones that put others in danger. 

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That's just bollocks, if you are vaccinated you are less likely to spread the Alpha and Delta variants, probably too early to say how much for this new variant:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

So your work pal is choosing to be more of a threat to you.

[egg]

  On 10/12/2021 at 08:38, aintforever said:

That's just bollocks, if you are vaccinated you are less likely to spread the Alpha and Delta variants, probably too early to say how much for this new variant:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/

So your work pal is choosing to be more of a threat to you.

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Everything I've read tells me that vaccinated and unvaccinated people carry and transmit the same viral load. 

Edited 10 December, 2021 by egg

[Saint86]

  On 10/12/2021 at 08:23, egg said:

Good post. I'm triple jabbed. I work with an anti vaxer and comfortable that he's no more a risk to me than the jabbed people I work with - all can carry the virus, and contrary to the spin, all would carry the same viral load. Personally I think he's nuts not to have the jabs for his own health, but it's his choice and who am I to argue against his choice. I don't agree that people like him should be ostracised and he'll be welcome at the works Christmas meal the same as anyone else. 

That guy regularly tests. He masks up where he should. That's what keeps me and others safe. It's those who don't do that who are the irresponsible ones that put others in danger. 

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TBH Egg, unless the rest of you are testing regularly and masking up when you should, that guy is probably the least of your worries 🤷‍♂️. The risk of spreading it is comparable. Nearly everyone I know who has had the vaccines has gone on to catch covid. One person (AZ) had it twice. Given they're all under 35 and not at any statistically significant risk of severe covid, you do have to wonder why as a cohort our generation bothered to have the vaccine... nothing to do with access to holidays/bars/restaurants i'm sure 😅

Edited 10 December, 2021 by Saint86

[egg]

  On 10/12/2021 at 09:12, Saint86 said:

tbh egg, unless the rest of you are testing regularly and masking up when you should, he's probably the least of your worries. Nearly everyone I know who has had the vaccines has gone on to catch covid. One person (AZ) twice.

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Agreed. Who's the bigger danger - the unvaccinated who tests regularly and masks, or the jabbed person who never tests and doesn't mask up? It's the latter for me all day long. 

[aintforever]

  On 10/12/2021 at 08:42, egg said:

Everything I've read tells me that vaccinated and unvaccinated people carry and transmit the same viral load. 

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Did you read this:

 

"People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”

A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.

This is only slightly lower than with the alpha variant, says Brechje de Gier at the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment in the Netherlands, who led the study. Her team had previously found that vaccinated people infected with alpha were 73 per cent less likely to infect unvaccinated people.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7EdZPRzVn

[egg]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:04, aintforever said:

Did you read this:

 

"People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”

A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.

This is only slightly lower than with the alpha variant, says Brechje de Gier at the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment in the Netherlands, who led the study. Her team had previously found that vaccinated people infected with alpha were 73 per cent less likely to infect unvaccinated people.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7EdZPRzVn

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Have you read anything else? There's article upon article (Google is your friend) telling us that viral load transmission is equal or broadly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Sure, there's articles out there to support your argument, but taking a balanced view, it seems that the unvaccinated aren't the danger some would suggest. 

Who's the biggest danger to us, the unvaccinated who regularly tests and masks up, or the vaccinated who doesn't? 

[Lighthouse]

  On 10/12/2021 at 09:18, egg said:

Agreed. Who's the bigger danger - the unvaccinated who tests regularly and masks, or the jabbed person who never tests and doesn't mask up? It's the latter for me all day long. 

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Except those aren’t the options. A very large number of anti-vaxxers refuse to admit there is any kind of threat at all, never get tested and refuse to comply with masks and SD whenever possible. Jabbed people aren’t as cavalier as that either. I never stopped wearing masks in shops and I’d say about half the people I saw didn’t either.

[egg]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:24, Lighthouse said:

Except those aren’t the options. A very large number of anti-vaxxers refuse to admit there is any kind of threat at all, never get tested and refuse to comply with masks and SD whenever possible. Jabbed people aren’t as cavalier as that either. I never stopped wearing masks in shops and I’d say about half the people I saw didn’t either.

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Of course, but it doesn't help sensible discussion if people conflate issues and assume that anti vaxxers dispute the existence of Covid. I know anto vaxxers who believe in covid, have had, test, and mask. 

Your refusal to answer my question tells me that you agree that mask wearing / tested non vaxed people are less of a risk than vaxed people who don't test or wear masks.

The vax has become the focus whereas it should be people's behaviour. 

[Lighthouse]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:30, egg said:

Of course, but it doesn't help sensible discussion if people conflate issues and assume that anti vaxxers dispute the existence of Covid. I know anto vaxxers who believe in covid, have had, test, and mask. 

Your refusal to answer my question tells me that you agree that mask wearing / tested non vaxed people are less of a risk than vaxed people who don't test or wear masks.

The vax has become the focus whereas it should be people's behaviour. 

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To answer your question directly, I’m still more concerned about the hypothetical careful anti-vaxxer. Not because I’m more worried they will infect me - The vaccines effect on transmissibility is still not proven - but because they are far more likely to need hospital treatment at some point, regardless of how often they get tested. That’s the issue, rising infections lead to rising hospital admissions, the NHS reaches a critical mass of patients again and we end up in lockdown.

[The Left Back]

I believe the UK deaths total each day could be split to show the percentage of deaths by vaccinated and unvaccinated victims.  I've often wondered why this is not reported on daily, and guess it would be seen as manipulative.  My understanding is that, over the last few weeks, around 92% of covid deaths daily are unvaccinated people.  I'm sorry, but can't remember the source for this; just the number struck me as being very high.  And that putting that number in the public domain daily might encourage more people to get jabbed. 

What I do not know is that last week in my local hospital 100% of the patients being treated for Covid (i.e discounting those in hospital for other reasons who happen to test positive) were unvaccinated.

All of which suggests to me that underneath all the bluster and blame the reality is that the people at greatest risk are those who don't get jabbed.  (This also correlates with the US study published recently).  My responsibility, as a triple-jabbed person, is to minimise my risk of acting as a carrier by wearing a mask and sanitising when appropriate; and also to encourage people I know that they should get vaccinated for their own sake.

The difference between this and the argument about smoking/diet etc is that Covid of course is contagious, whereas those other things aren't.  So I do think it's in all our interests to learn enough to be able to have an informed opinion and then use this to advise others.  Having said that, I'm not in favour of some of the more totalitarian suggestions being put outer the last few days.  When national identity cards were proposed by that Luton tory guy in the 80s it was rightly trashed - and I think Covid passports as a government thing is a step too far.  Having said that, if private institutions, like football clubs or cinemas want to protect their patrons by inviting on masks, sanitising, social distancing, or proof of vaccination then that's up to them - in the same way pubs and clubs already ask for proof of ID for youngsters.

 

[Nolan]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:58, The Left Back said:

I believe the UK deaths total each day could be split to show the percentage of deaths by vaccinated and unvaccinated victims.  I've often wondered why this is not reported on daily, and guess it would be seen as manipulative.  My understanding is that, over the last few weeks, around 92% of covid deaths daily are unvaccinated people.  I'm sorry, but can't remember the source for this; just the number struck me as being very high.  And that putting that number in the public domain daily might encourage more people to get jabbed. 

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Office of National statistics last data is from 24/9 published 1/11

 

95 covid deaths were unvaccinated

444 covid deaths were double jabbed.

Deaths by vaccination status, England - Office for National Statistics

 

 

[wild-saint]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:24, Lighthouse said:

Except those aren’t the options. A very large number of anti-vaxxers refuse to admit there is any kind of threat at all, never get tested and refuse to comply with masks and SD whenever possible. Jabbed people aren’t as cavalier as that either. I never stopped wearing masks in shops and I’d say about half the people I saw didn’t either.

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  On 10/12/2021 at 11:12, Nolan said:

 

Office of National statistics last data is from 24/9 published 1/11

 

95 covid deaths were unvaccinated

444 covid deaths were double jabbed.

Deaths by vaccination status, England - Office for National Statistics

 

 

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interestingly 69.9% of the population are double jabbed and 82% of that total number you quoted that died were double  jabbed (assuming my maths havent failed me).  Maybe we should stop quoting deaths  "with Covid"  and start quoting deaths "of covid"? 

[JRM]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-22/vaccine-holdouts-face-4-000-fine-in-austria-s-virus-crackdown

There is some really sick stuff going on in Europe at the moment, this should alarm everyone but no doubt will be cheered by some of the gullible on here. 

 

[Nolan]

  On 10/12/2021 at 11:22, wild-saint said:

 

interestingly 69.9% of the population are double jabbed and 82% of that total number you quoted that died were double  jabbed (assuming my maths havent failed me).  Maybe we should stop quoting deaths  "with Covid"  and start quoting deaths "of covid"? 

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nb. there would be a "single jabbed" column as well, that was 25 cases for the Week ending 24/9.

and worth noting. there were 6430 people who died that week who had been double jabbed. 444 were said to have "involved" covid.

and its always likely that the percentage will be higher as the higher the age, the more likely to be vaccinated.

 

Edited 10 December, 2021 by Nolan

[S-Clarke]

  On 10/12/2021 at 11:30, JRM said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-22/vaccine-holdouts-face-4-000-fine-in-austria-s-virus-crackdown

There is some really sick stuff going on in Europe at the moment, this should alarm everyone but no doubt will be cheered by some of the gullible on here. 

 

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That is ludicrous and incredibly scary in my eyes. I'm all for giving people a choice and these sorts of sanctions are something I never thought I'd live to see in my life.

[JRM]

  On 10/12/2021 at 11:22, wild-saint said:

 

interestingly 69.9% of the population are double jabbed and 82% of that total number you quoted that died were double  jabbed (assuming my maths havent failed me).  Maybe we should stop quoting deaths  "with Covid"  and start quoting deaths "of covid"? 

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That would be great, the deaths with covid (following a positive test result in last 28 days) has allowed them to get away with using numbers to scare people and justify restrictions. 

[JRM]

Imagine releasing a product that doesn't properly do what you promised it would do...

and then blaming the malfunction on people who did not purchase said product... 

whilst telling those who bought it that they must buy it again every few months.

 

Now imagine you also have to buy the product to keep your current job... Perhaps even to go to a concert, gym, or shop. 

And if you criticise or even question the efficacy of the product or its rollout, you get insulted, slandered, and perhaps deplatformed.

Imagine that if the product hurts you, then you are not allowed to sue the manufacturer... They have full legal immunity.

In fact, even if it hurts you, you are told you must buy it again, or you're a bad person.

It's actually taboo to even talk about the fact that it hurt you.

Also, imagine the manufacturer of this product had to pay out one of the biggest lawsuits in history, due to dishonesty and malfeasance.

And they don't want to give the public full data about the product and research for another 75 years.

Of course, this is all hypothetical.

Nobody would consider this a realistic nor reasonable way to handle any product. 

Merely working on my fiction writing skills for a future dystopian novel, set in a time when humans have gone mad and nothing makes sense.

[egg]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:39, Lighthouse said:

To answer your question directly, I’m still more concerned about the hypothetical careful anti-vaxxer. Not because I’m more worried they will infect me - The vaccines effect on transmissibility is still not proven - but because they are far more likely to need hospital treatment at some point, regardless of how often they get tested. That’s the issue, rising infections lead to rising hospital admissions, the NHS reaches a critical mass of patients again and we end up in lockdown.

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I'm not disagreeing that unvaccinated people will inevitably be more likely to need hospital treatment. There's a selfishness in that respect by not being vaccinated, but the thrust of this thread is covid passports at football and that's a point that relates primarily to transmission at football. Its wrong to highlight vaccines as being relevant to that issue. 

[aintforever]

  On 10/12/2021 at 10:13, egg said:

Have you read anything else? There's article upon article (Google is your friend) telling us that viral load transmission is equal or broadly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. Sure, there's articles out there to support your argument, but taking a balanced view, it seems that the unvaccinated aren't the danger some would suggest. 

Who's the biggest danger to us, the unvaccinated who regularly tests and masks up, or the vaccinated who doesn't? 

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I have read a few articles and they all seem to agree that whilst the peak viral load is similar the levels of nasal virus in the vaccinated drop faster than do those of unvaccinated infected people and so reduces transmission by varying amounts. Obviously it depends on the time since they had the Jab and the covid variant.

I would be interested to see the studies that say that there is no difference.

[wild-saint]

  On 10/12/2021 at 12:23, aintforever said:

I have read a few articles and they all seem to agree that whilst the peak viral load is similar the levels of nasal virus in the vaccinated drop faster than do those of unvaccinated infected people and so reduces transmission by varying amounts. Obviously it depends on the time since they had the Jab and the covid variant.

I would be interested to see the studies that say that there is no difference.

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From what i have read the unvaccinated are more likely to spread for longer based on viral load and the the extended time  /severity of the symptoms. However it was also raised that those with more symptoms are likely to self isolate earlier preventing spread. From an anecdotal perspective I am DJ and then caught covid. I had barely any symptoms other than thinking I had hayfever walking around potentially spreading it until my daughter tested positive after a temperature.

it can be argued both ways and in my opinion until they produce an actual vaccine that prevents disease rather than mask symptoms the whole "less transmission" argument is pointless.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 10/12/2021 at 11:12, Nolan said:

 

Office of National statistics last data is from 24/9 published 1/11

 

95 covid deaths were unvaccinated

444 covid deaths were double jabbed.

Deaths by vaccination status, England - Office for National Statistics

 

 

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I think you have summed the wrong column there. 34,474 unjabbed deaths in total over the whole period against 4,479 double jabbed. Of those who died were doubly jabbed the over 80s were consistently more than the under 80s.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 09/12/2021 at 23:30, RedArmy said:

 Why? Does our vaccine work or not? If it does work then why does someone unvaccinated make any difference if we’re protected? If it doesn’t work then why does it matter someone hasn’t had it? 

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It's not as simple as that, nothing is ever that binary. It works in that it reduces significantly the chance of catching, spreading or suffering from the virus. Did you really expect 100% protection?

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 10/12/2021 at 11:30, JRM said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-22/vaccine-holdouts-face-4-000-fine-in-austria-s-virus-crackdown

There is some really sick stuff going on in Europe at the moment, this should alarm everyone but no doubt will be cheered by some of the gullible on here. 

 

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The gullible are thos who fear the vaccine.

[Whitey Grandad]

  On 10/12/2021 at 13:11, wild-saint said:

From what i have read the unvaccinated are more likely to spread for longer based on viral load and the the extended time  /severity of the symptoms. However it was also raised that those with more symptoms are likely to self isolate earlier preventing spread. From an anecdotal perspective I am DJ and then caught covid. I had barely any symptoms other than thinking I had hayfever walking around potentially spreading it until my daughter tested positive after a temperature.

it can be argued both ways and in my opinion until they produce an actual vaccine that prevents disease rather than mask symptoms the whole "less transmission" argument is pointless.

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If you want to reduce the spread then it is far from pointless,

[saint1977]

  On 10/12/2021 at 13:29, Whitey Grandad said:

It's not as simple as that, nothing is ever that binary. It works in that it reduces significantly the chance of catching, spreading or suffering from the virus. Did you really expect 100% protection?

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Absolutely, the main important feature is preventing more serious illness hospital admissions and clogging up the ICUs. Staff on the non COVID wards need to be given greater PPE to reduce spread once there. There is then reduced spread of serious illness strains but there will still be some from those who cannot/will not (there’s a key difference) take a vaccine. This should be a hard fact to absorb but I think mental health overall in the population is so poor and so much time is spent on social media digesting QAnon/Trump/Putin/Piers Corbyn/Andrew Wakefield/David Icke nonsense that people will believe any old stuff. Those names certainly have a small but vocal band of followers on this forum judging by this and the thread on the Lounge,

Those people along with the most vulnerable triple jabbed population segments are at the greatest risk. My sense from the early data is this spreads a lot faster but causes milder illness, but the data is a few weeks away at best from building a representative enough picture to have sufficient confidence. 

Patients admitted with serious non COVID conditions and missing critical diagnosis stages are the biggest group impacted. I can’t see us travelling down the Austrian road, which troubles me, but I do think the unvaccinated will face mobility limits in the future. Or you incentivise people on the lowest incomes for taking boosters. I don’t like passports either but the balance of rights vs ignorance of responsibilities has to be resolved in greater volumes soon if we are going to sustain progress on the next stage of recovery. 

Edited 10 December, 2021 by saint1977