Arsenal 3-0 Saints - Match Thread

[Forester]

As a generally very loyal and understanding fan, this is beginning to push patience to the limit.  A promising first 20 mins followed by the now familiar carving open of Saints’ defences.  Second half score line could have been far worse in reality, and while the far end of the ground the last goal looked like a keeper error.

 

As I have mentioned many times before, we are going nowhere other than the championship if we continue to ship an average of two goals per game which is the current trend.  While attractive to watch while it lasts, and perhaps suitable for playing relegation rivals, our naivety in playing just two midfielders who both press high up leaves us so exposed away from home to strong teams.  Tactical flexibility appeared early in the season, and it seemed we were capable of keeping clean sheets, but now we are back to where we were in the second half of last season just doing the same thing over and over again.

 

This week is massive, with a minimum of three points needed out of next two games and hopefully four otherwise I fear we will be stranded below one point per match at the halfway point with big spenders Newcastle and ever resilient Burnley both fancying their chances of finishing above us.

[vectraman]

We are in a bit of a slump currently, Arsenal away was never a game you’d pick as winnable, anything other than defeat would be an unexpected bonus. It won’t relegate us…

But the team are all over the place. How the hell psychologically does Ralph’s selections affect the team? Lyanco - dropped, but wasn’t the worst last week. Peraud - can’t get in a poor side at left back, because our right back is there. Hello Ralph, wtf?
Our captain and leader is so out of form he needs dropping, he adds nothing whatsoever to the side currently, apart from slowing us down with his backwards sideways passing.

Elyounoussi is back, but to me adds nothing at all to the side, he’s still too slow and out of his depth in the premier league. 
 

Tella has started the last two games but again adds some pace but nothing resembling an end result.

Bednarek has lost his bearings and gone from just about average to poor. 
Our defence last year was porous and poor, so we signed a left back we rarely play (Ralph’s signing), a cheap centre back who is fourth choice and has not improved our starting side at all.

He keeps changing the line up, never a settled team. 
I would like to see Peraud at left back, KWP at right back, Salisu and Stephens (best of a distinctly below average bunch) Romeu and Diallo in CM, Livramento on the right and Redmond left (assuming Mr made of glass Djenepo is injured).

Adams and Broja up front. 
 

Then stop tinkering. After 3 years you still have no clue about the best starting line up. 

 

[HnycS]

7 hours ago, obelisk said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that Saints just do not have the players with the ability to implement the tactical system that the manager wants. Something needs to change or this season could end badly.

Correct something has to give. Think Ralph choosing to wear a suit in the rain was a telling metaphor. Either nobody dared tell him that wasn't a good idea, or they did and he just didn't listen and made a bad call. This seems to be recurring pattern in his team selection and game management, there maybe three worse teams in the league not sure there are three worse managers anymore.

Edited 11 December, 2021 by HnycS
Brevity.

[austsaint]

1 hour ago, verlaine1979 said:

We were already 2-0 down and effectively out of the game when he came off. And aside from one snap shot that was easily saved, we'd failed to convert any of our pressure into meaningful chances.

Teams at the bottom have to lean into their strengths when they want to turn a game around. That could mean playing rough like Burnley or Stoke of old, or it could mean bombing forward with pace like Palace currently do. Our problem is that, as a squad we are neither strong nor fast. We excel only in mediocrity, hence why we have seen so few fight backs over the past few seasons. JWP sums this up for me - a one-paced plodder incapable of playing on the turn, incapable of imposing himself on the game physically and too timid to impose himself on the game through technique. Once the game starts to get away from us, we have nowhere to go.

Yet he's being paid in excess of 100k a week and is undroppable in Ralph's eyes.   Ward-Prowse needs quality players around him, and runners to compensate for those limitations you mention.   Even his dead ball "magic" seems to have deserted him.     

[St Steve]

 

[Chez]

honestly, if I see us almost concede from a break from our own corner one more time...FFS

...what the hell are our coaches doing every week? Watch the tape. Identify when and why we serving up chances. Do your fucking jobs.

[Saint Billy]

2 minutes ago, St Steve said:

 

I would rather pluck my eyeballs out with tooth picks than watch that horror show again.

 

Btw, thanks anyway.

[Chez]

31 minutes ago, Forester said:

while the far end of the ground the last goal looked like a keeper error.

 

massive error. Willy looks old. McCarthy makes that error, posters in here would explode with anger. 

[Chez]

10 minutes ago, HnycS said:

Think Ralph choosing to wear a suit in the rain was a telling metaphor. Either nobody dared tell him that wasn't a good idea, or they did and he just didn't listen and made a bad call.

he changed his garb at half time. Wish our side could change for the better after the break.

[HnycS]

1 minute ago, Chez said:

he changed his garb at half time. Wish our side could change for the better after the break.

Yes that is the most mystifying thing this season just WTF happens at half time? Seems in the first half things look promising, there is a plan and energy is being expended in pursuit of a positive outcome. Then it all goes to hell in a hand basket second half. 

[Eric The Red]

Having just seen the highlights on MoTD then sure we're not strong enough up front but with some decent goalkeeping we would certainly not have lost 3-0. I just pray Forsteris back soon - hopefully Wednesday!

[Chez]

11 minutes ago, Eric The Red said:

Having just seen the highlights on MoTD then sure we're not strong enough up front but with some decent goalkeeping we would certainly not have lost 3-0. I just pray Forsteris back soon - hopefully Wednesday!

crap keeping or not, we were very lucky it wasn't five or six. Two off the post, some crucial last ditch blocks and they spurned a few extremely good chances on the break. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Pilchards said:

Totally agree.

He’s not trying something different and just keeps making the same mistakes. The team stops with him plus the training stops with his management team.

(1) Put Redmond on corners

(2) Livi and KWP both on the right

(3) Put a LB as a LB

(4) Stop chasing everything for the first 45 minutes as we are tanked 2nd half.

(5) Redmond as a No 10

(6) Stop over committing for the first 60 minutes and have two solid banks of 4 with two at top. Last 30 minutes press on for a winner with two fresher legs off the bench as the players will be fresher while the opposition will be tired.

(7) And finally do some man marking training for the next two weeks where the two banks of 4 must pick up a player and sit tight to them. (Honestly that first and second goal today was school boys marking)

You have the job !

[badgerx16]

38 minutes ago, Chez said:

he changed his garb at half time. Wish our side could change for the better after the break.

Perhaps he could do a Fergie and get them to change kits at HT.

[HnycS]

6 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

the exact same was said when Hughes was being questioned.  No one (absolutely no one) would have suggested Hassenhutl at the time

Actually I remember a few astute posters pointing out that he did meet a key requirement for a Southampton manager viz current lack of gainful employment and therefore no compensation required. Why is this important? Well based upon social media and being in a similar situation step forward Frank Lampard. Will he make a positive difference, I am not sure, but at the moment any difference positive or negative will work for me. Seeing the same plan fail week after week is getting very old.

[Pilchards]

6 minutes ago, HnycS said:

Actually I remember a few astute posters pointing out that he did meet a key requirement for a Southampton manager viz current lack of gainful employment and therefore no compensation required. Why is this important? Well based upon social media and being in a similar situation step forward Frank Lampard. Will he make a positive difference, I am not sure, but at the moment any difference positive or negative will work for me. Seeing the same plan fail week after week is getting very old.

He’s been sussed out.

Every team knows what we do now, start fast and hope to score and then hold on.

Predictable, predictable, predictable Z zzzz

[Kermitzasaint]

6 hours ago, Vancouver Saint said:

I see where you're coming from but I like Ralph because he wants to be front-foot, go-forward, look to win games - I'd rather see that than a Sam Allardyce 'park the bus' from the beginning of games (I still cannot believe people on here would rather see us become Sheffield Utd or West Brom). As we've proven with some terrific performances that short memories forget - we CAN do it - but not when you're missing key players in key areas. 

I get the 'one trick pony, change the playbook criticism'. I just think that the issue is not the bigger picture playbook strategy, but the lack of tactical flexibility to change it when required. This includes playing players out of position (KWP and Perraud should play with Tino rested or a power-sub higher up / sitting too deep in pathetic attempts to defend a one goal lead instead of attacking for a second goal / not changing it up in some games when you need a 'plan B' from the start...although he tried this a Liverpool and it backfired / general fitness and effort in second half of games / not buying a decent goalkeeper - which was my No.1 priority at the beginning of the season).

I think the solution is not to fire Ralph but to hire a rotweiler defensive coach who will counter Ralph's soft approach with some real fear-driven bollocking to eliminate limp performances. We generally are better going forward than defending - so need to strengthen our defensive frailty and make us harder to beat.

But we are patently not better at going forward are we. 

The Ralph fans obsess about how we have improved defensively this season although that is laughable.

Ralph is flawed at every part of coaching.

[Fan The Flames]

I watched that shit from the home end, you see the game differently from there, were we as shit as we looked?

We were so passive with an old useless cunt in goal, we made a very average Arsenal side look alright.

[Singapore Saint]

When I saw Ralph on the touchline shaking his head, I knew we were f*cked.

[wild-saint]

The other thing to add over our championship standard manager is the fact we have a largely championship standard squad. All,over we are just not good enough. We are starting to reap what we sow.

On the positive side we are more likely to find a buyer in the championship than in the prem when the club is worthless and full of debt. Although it would probably take administration first.

[bangkoksaint]

8 hours ago, St Steve said:

 

Fantastic! Looked like a really fun day out in London…………until you arrived at the football 😂

[Toussaint]

8 hours ago, HnycS said:

Yes that is the most mystifying thing this season just WTF happens at half time? Seems in the first half things look promising, there is a plan and energy is being expended in pursuit of a positive outcome. Then it all goes to hell in a hand basket second half. 

What happens at half time? The players thrash around on the changing room floor gasping for oxygen, Ralph shouts werk against the ball, pressing ja! Automisms! Reddy, time for my back rub. The players trot out on to the pitch collectively muttering “how much longer do we have to put up with this loon”? Meanwhile, back at base Stuart Armstrong counts down the days Hogmanay and his January move to Leicester/ Villa / Spurs or the like. 

Edited 12 December, 2021 by Toussaint

[St Steve]

25 minutes ago, bangkoksaint said:

Fantastic! Looked like a really fun day out in London…………until you arrived at the football 😂

A couple of hours rubbish in an otherwise good day 😂

[Convict Colony]

the amount of times our players lost the ball during close control in the final 3rd was ridiculous yesterday, they seemed to think they were ronaldinho and without fail as soon as they lost it arsenal counter attacked with pace.

Must say first time I've seen ramsdale since bournemouth and what he brought to the arsenal team in both goal keeping and intent was impressive, it shows what we havent had for a long long time.

I think to be honest we have crap forwards and without romeu a crap midfield.  JWP hasnt played a through ball in his life and our forwards have more luck with pin the tail on the donkey.

I want to know what the real story is with Stuart Armstrong, this calf injury is bullshit.

Edit - I really like lyanco though, his intent and steel he brings to our backlike is what we need - him and salisu next game please.

 

Edited 12 December, 2021 by Convict Colony

[bennyev]

The club cut corners with every transfer in the summer. Saving themselves 20m. But we didn’t replace Danny’s goals, we didn’t sign a commanding centreback which we’ve been desperate for and we didn’t sort the two keeper no no.1 situation. Think this is the year we’ll go down. And the more likely that becomes the less likely we are to be bought.

[macca155]

2 minutes ago, bennyev said:

The club cut corners with every transfer in the summer. Saving themselves 20m. But we didn’t replace Danny’s goals, we didn’t sign a commanding centreback which we’ve been desperate for and we didn’t sort the two keeper no no.1 situation. Think this is the year we’ll go down. And the more likely that becomes the less likely we are to be bought.

Actually I suspect we'll survive this season. There really are three rank sides this year. However next year looks ominous. 

We are falling behind a number of Championship sides in investment now. It is short journey to being a Stoke, Forest, or Swansea.

Grim times I fear.

[IFHP]

2 minutes ago, macca155 said:

Actually I suspect we'll survive this season. There really are three rank sides this year. However next year looks ominous. 

 

Who are those three rank sides? 

 

 

[Hodgey]

Yesterday the spine of the team was a 40yr old gk training with a l1 club, Bednerak, an out of sorts JWP, Redmond and a young Chelsea loaner. That spine belongs in the championship. Even with a fully fit side there isn’t a great improvement. Anyone expecting anything other than bottom 6 was always going to be disappointed. 
That said Ralph is currently making it worse - dropping KWP was a mistake he’s yet to rectify, he’s got no idea who his best cfs are  , has acquired a load of sub par no 10s. On top of that we’re still dealing with dreadful recruiting decisions which Ralph has compounded - Djenepo ?, Perraud (won’t play him), Walcott (ridiculous signing) and 3 of our top earners are rightly not in the 1st team. It’s a mess and the brief for this season was to find a new goal scorer, a left back and centre back - failed on all fronts so far. Newcastle and Leeds will overtake us as both will have far superior teams second half of the season, leaves us in a dogfight with Burnley, Norwich, Watford  and possibly Brentford (although I suspect they will be fine). 

Do I think Lampard would do better ? Maybe, my worry is that the players have lost faith in Ralph’s system - in which case a change is needed. I’d re-evaluate after next 4 games as Ralph deserves a final stab at putting it right - but 2 wins/performance uplift required.

[Saint Billy]

To cap it all, we have an ineffective captain who is not that helpful as a player either. The sooner we con another side into paying big bucks for him the better. 

[BotleySaint]

36 minutes ago, Hodgey said:

It’s a mess and the brief for this season was to find a new goal scorer, a left back and centre back.

I don't get why Perraud is left out by Ralph. I've not seen a lot of him, but he certainly looks competent at LB from what I have seen.

[East Kent Saint]

32 minutes ago, Hodgey said:

Yesterday the spine of the team was a 40yr old gk training with a l1 club, Bednerak, an out of sorts JWP, Redmond and a young Chelsea loaner. That spine belongs in the championship. Even with a fully fit side there isn’t a great improvement. Anyone expecting anything other than bottom 6 was always going to be disappointed. 
That said Ralph is currently making it worse - dropping KWP was a mistake he’s yet to rectify, he’s got no idea who his best cfs are  , has acquired a load of sub par no 10s. On top of that we’re still dealing with dreadful recruiting decisions which Ralph has compounded - Djenepo ?, Perraud (won’t play him), Walcott (ridiculous signing) and 3 of our top earners are rightly not in the 1st team. It’s a mess and the brief for this season was to find a new goal scorer, a left back and centre back - failed on all fronts so far. Newcastle and Leeds will overtake us as both will have far superior teams second half of the season, leaves us in a dogfight with Burnley, Norwich, Watford  and possibly Brentford (although I suspect they will be fine). 

Do I think Lampard would do better ? Maybe, my worry is that the players have lost faith in Ralph’s system - in which case a change is needed. I’d re-evaluate after next 4 games as Ralph deserves a final stab at putting it right - but 2 wins/performance uplift required.

Don't think we could afford Lampard or that he would like to come here with our lack of money and average squad ! I only saw the match on Motd , Ramsdale was good but only really one outstanding save , for the first 2 goals we had 5 or 6 defenders back but no one got near the ball ???  What's happened to JWP , his form seems to have dropped off a cliff , is it his injury that has caused it ? It looks like we need a fresh manager , get players in their correct position and a new set of favourites 😀. When a manager can't see he is causing the poor performance and is blaming players plus ignoring other players for matches it is time for him to resign . I thought Ralph was doing a good job but he lost the plot now . Norwich lost as well with their new manager but they created chances only to find DeGea on top form plus Ronaldo going down like a sack of spuds to get a penalty , despite what the pundits said .

[wild-saint]

I predict we will spend 15+ million on a player in January, who will turn out shyte and then we will sack the manager 4 games later.

 

if they are going to sack RH it needs to be now whilst their is a chance to make a difference. We are looking doomed right now particularly with half the squad injured.

[Teddeer]

11 hours ago, Chez said:

honestly, if I see us almost concede from a break from our own corner one more time...FFS

...what the hell are our coaches doing every week? Watch the tape. Identify when and why we serving up chances. Do your fucking jobs.

Spot on. You can forgive it now and then but this is another continuing trait that Ralph fails to address. I don't see other sides continually hit on the break after their own corners. One of the big reasons is the poor deliveries from JWP. He has gone from whipping dangerous balls into the mix which are hard to defend against to floating in easy catches for the keeper who can then launch the ball into the wide open spaces vacated because we have defenders up for the corner. It has to stop!

[Micky]

11 hours ago, Pilchards said:

Totally agree.

He’s not trying something different and just keeps making the same mistakes. The team stops with him plus the training stops with his management team.

(1) Put Redmond on corners

(2) Livi and KWP both on the right

(3) Put a LB as a LB

(4) Stop chasing everything for the first 45 minutes as we are tanked 2nd half.

(5) Redmond as a No 10

(6) Stop over committing for the first 60 minutes and have two solid banks of 4 with two at top. Last 30 minutes press on for a winner with two fresher legs off the bench as the players will be fresher while the opposition will be tired.

(7) And finally do some man marking training for the next two weeks where the two banks of 4 must pick up a player and sit tight to them. (Honestly that first and second goal today was school boys marking)

Wanna job? 

[Teddeer]

10 hours ago, Eric The Red said:

Having just seen the highlights on MoTD then sure we're not strong enough up front but with some decent goalkeeping we would certainly not have lost 3-0. I just pray Forsteris back soon - hopefully Wednesday!

I doubt we'd have gone to the trouble and expense of hiring Caballero if Fraser was only going to miss one match.

[LiberalCommunist]

Well, that wasn't half as painful as BHA for me. Now that was a sick result!

Yesterday, after a tremendous start, that could still be considered a little loose with defending, we utterly capitulated. 

James sets the tone. However disappointing he is, suddenly runs through the whole team. We need leaders, we've got none.

3-0 really flattered us. That should have been six.

God, I almost hoped for nine just so we could press the fucking reset button once again.

Looking at how organised Norwich look since Smith took over, really highlights Ralphs limitations for me.

Sometimes, you've just got to know your strengths & limitations and not deviate from a simple path.

Whereas RH seems to go for the definition of madness every week. Death by a thousand cuts. 

[david in sweden]

1 hour ago, BotleySaint said:

I don't get why Perraud is left out by Ralph. I've not seen a lot of him, but he certainly looks competent at LB from what I have seen.

A valid point.    Perraud  is another option, In which case, where do you play Walker-Peters ?

......and if you return KWP to the RB spot (his best position).... where do you use Livramento?

......and if you move Tino up as an attacking player ...who do you take out of the middle?

With injuries to  our first-choice strikers, maybe we could try Tino as a striker....Or ?...  Or ?... Or ?

[Billy the Kidd]

3 minutes ago, LiberalCommunist said:

Well, that wasn't half as painful as BHA for me. Now that was a sick result!

Yesterday, after a tremendous start, that could still be considered a little loose with defending, we utterly capitulated. 

James sets the tone. However disappointing he is, suddenly runs through the whole team. We need leaders, we've got none.

3-0 really flattered us. That should have been six.

God, I almost hoped for nine just so we could press the fucking reset button once again.

Looking at how organised Norwich look since Smith took over, really highlights Ralphs limitations for me.

Sometimes, you've just got to know your strengths & limitations and not deviate from a simple path.

Whereas RH seems to go for the definition of madness every week. Death by a thousand cuts. 

The other week when Rangnick took over, he was asked how Ronaldo would fit into his style of play.

He simply said you dont, you always have to work a system to suit the players you have.

Ralph has had 3 years to figure out we dont have the players to fit his system.

A couple of years back, Ralph persisted in fucking around with square pegs/round holes. He refused to play Bertrand, played our best RB at the time at LB, and put our 3rd choice RB in (i think). With Perraud/Tino/KWP, he is doing the same again. He did it previously playing Bednarek at RB.

WTF is he still doing this stuff for? For me, it is plain arrogance that he cant accept his way wont work.

I gave him slack early season as he did seem more responsive in game changes and mixed formation/tactics up more.

Now he has reverted to form. I honestly dont think he can turn this around, even though I would love him to.

I agree we have limitations in the squad, but dont buy the line of no one else would do better. I think it is actually no one else can do much worse for me.

[Billy the Kidd]

2 minutes ago, david in sweden said:

A valid point.    Perraud  is another option, In which case, where do you play Walker-Peters ?

......and if you return KWP to the RB spot (his best position).... where do you use Livramento?

......and if you move Tino up as an attacking player ...who do you take out of the middle?

With injuries to  our first-choice strikers, maybe we could try Tino as a striker....Or ?...  Or ?... Or ?

Tino either goes on the bench, or he takes a 10 position. It is clear for the whole world to see, but somehow Ralph cant see it.

[david in sweden]

As if suspensions and injuries weren't enough, our back line was so disjointed.   Not a left-footer in sight.

Lyanco is still finding his way into Ralph's planning, but he is no worse than anyone else ( perhaps aside from Salisu).

Stephens and Bednarek are both right-sided defenders, as is Walker-Peters (normally RB).

Diallo shows some good ball control, but he is no Romeo and we miss having " a hard man " in centre midfield,

and we really do miss Stuart Armstrong's creativity in midfield. 

Just now we can put aside the idea of playing those who are " on form " , it's just a case of picking anyone who is fit enough to play.

 

Sad to say, but in many of our games, it hasn't been the fault of defenders, but strikers who can't put the ball in the net.

Just one goal  in half a dozen of our drawn games would have given us another 12 points (on top of our present 16).

 

[StrangelyBrown]

9 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Tino either goes on the bench, or he takes a 10 position. It is clear for the whole world to see, but somehow Ralph cant see it.

Do you think KWP is a better right back than Livramento?

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Do you think KWP is a better right back than Livramento?

right now, absolutely

[Billy the Kidd]

16 minutes ago, StrangelyBrown said:

Do you think KWP is a better right back than Livramento?

Yes I do.

I think Tino will be a better player, but right now, no. 

And it also unbalances us on our left side not having a left footed LB. 

[sadoldgit]

4 hours ago, david in sweden said:

A valid point.    Perraud  is another option, In which case, where do you play Walker-Peters ?

......and if you return KWP to the RB spot (his best position).... where do you use Livramento?

......and if you move Tino up as an attacking player ...who do you take out of the middle?

With injuries to  our first-choice strikers, maybe we could try Tino as a striker....Or ?...  Or ?... Or ?

I think the point is Perraud is ok but KWP is a better left back than him and although there isn’t a lot in it, you could argue that Livramento is a better right back then KWP. Ralph has said that Livramento’s style of play makes him more effective from the RB position rather than wing back. Where else do you play him as he ought to be starting every game.

[Nordic Saint]

6 hours ago, Hodgey said:

Yesterday the spine of the team was a 40yr old gk training with a l1 club, Bednerak, an out of sorts JWP, Redmond and a young Chelsea loaner. That spine belongs in the championship. 

How about Caballero-Lancashire-Walcott-Long? Championship or League One? 

[Matty's Caddy]

20 hours ago, Chez said:

Lyanco is a liability IMO.

Can’t be any worse than the 2 yesterday. At least he’s quick…..

[DT]

They won’t sack him because we’re skint and any new manager would also demand new players in the jan window. Plus compo for Ralph. That’s all I can think of. 

[cambsaint]

It was very noticeable on MOTD that our three central defenders played in a straight line in the box.I suspect this is the reason for our appalling defensive record. I don't claim to be an expert but when watching match analyses the most effective seems to be a diamond of four. The way we played yesterday left the front of the box open.

[Hodgey]

On the Tino front - he started great, but only started due to a promise in order to get him. That’s not fair on anyone, since then Ralph has backed himself into a corner, everyone can see Tino needs a break but that is ultimately admitting you were wrong, and he played KWP lb as he feared losing one of our better players.

Dropping Tino should be an option - he’s been poor the last few games so in a meritocracy someone else deserves a chance. Now I think our right sided n 10s have been awful so I’d argue he deserves a chance there, but if arrogant Ralph doesn’t think so then he has to drop him.

Basically this is going to end with all 3 full backs losing confidence. Tino from either being dropped or continually beaten by wingers, KWP for being dropped for a rookie and then failing on the wrong flank, Perraud from being judged worse than an out of position right footed full back. Utter mess

[Charlie Wayman]

Dreadful. An appallingly bad performance. Nowhere to go from here except downwards. 

Yes indeedy Hodgey. On the nail!

Edited 12 December, 2021 by Charlie Wayman