Mental Health Discussion

[Turkish]

Angela Black on ITV at the moment worth a watch on this subject. Drama, very good.

[Guided Missile]

Some background may be worth providing, in terms of what informs me on mental health and then you guys can chose to play the victim game, while actually doing nothing practical to help anyone, apart from having your mutual bullsh!t session.

You see, if someone is anxious or depressed, which is a normal part of life, the long term solution can only come from self awareness and a willingness to make a positive change to cope with the depression or anxiety. A quick bit of advice for sog, despite him calling me an asshole. It is obvious that this particular poster is content with his mental state defining him, rather than him defining his mental state. How do I know this? Well, 15 years ago he joined this forum and chose to call himself sad old git. My advice is change your fucking screen name to "trying to be happier, age is just a number, guy". While  you're doing that, FFS pony up a £5 a year to support this forum. You're just like the miserable guy in the corner of the pub who always expects people to buy him a pint, without buying a drink in return. Pretty quickly the other regulars get pissed off with you sucking the oxygen out of the room. That is the last bit of free advice I will give him, because, as my dear old Dad used to say, some people are only happy when they're miserable.

To the rest of you, here's just part of my experience of mental health. My cousin, a beautiful young woman, developed mental illness after an arsonist set fire to her home, followed by her father, my uncle, passing away. She was in treatment, but the drugs failed to work and she was further treated with electro-convulsive therapy and then committed.  When I  found out she was ill, and it was obvious the medication and ECT hadn't worked, I invited her to stay with me for a couple weeks. We went for walks with the dog, talked about old times and I did everything I could to pick her spirits up. She returned home apparently in good spirits. and when she later found out I was seriously ill in hospital, she sent a lovely letter, in spidery handwriting and from "the looney bin" , thanking me for the holiday and wishing me well. I got out of hospital, returned home to find out that while I was in hospital, she had thrown herself off a cliff. I remember her funeral, hugging her daughter, the wildflowers that were picked to decorate her coffin and the dignity her mother and sister showed, during and after the service. 

That's all (too much) from me and now I've spilled my guts, stop calling me a callous asshole. Actually, I don't care what you call me, if it makes you happier. You all fill your boots.

[sadoldgit]

3 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Some background may be worth providing, in terms of what informs me on mental health and then you guys can chose to play the victim game, while actually doing nothing practical to help anyone, apart from having your mutual bullsh!t session.

You see, if someone is anxious or depressed, which is a normal part of life, the long term solution can only come from self awareness and a willingness to make a positive change to cope with the depression or anxiety. A quick bit of advice for sog, despite him calling me an asshole. It is obvious that this particular poster is content with his mental state defining him, rather than him defining his mental state. How do I know this? Well, 15 years ago he joined this forum and chose to call himself sad old git. My advice is change your fucking screen name to "trying to be happier, age is just a number, guy". While  you're doing that, FFS pony up a £5 a year to support this forum. You're just like the miserable guy in the corner of the pub who always expects people to buy him a pint, without buying a drink in return. Pretty quickly the other regulars get pissed off with you sucking the oxygen out of the room. That is the last bit of free advice I will give him, because, as my dear old Dad used to say, some people are only happy when they're miserable.

To the rest of you, here's just part of my experience of mental health. My cousin, a beautiful young woman, developed mental illness after an arsonist set fire to her home, followed by her father, my uncle, passing away. She was in treatment, but the drugs failed to work and she was further treated with electro-convulsive therapy and then committed.  When I  found out she was ill, and it was obvious the medication and ECT hadn't worked, I invited her to stay with me for a couple weeks. We went for walks with the dog, talked about old times and I did everything I could to pick her spirits up. She returned home apparently in good spirits. and when she later found out I was seriously ill in hospital, she sent a lovely letter, in spidery handwriting and from "the looney bin" , thanking me for the holiday and wishing me well. I got out of hospital, returned home to find out that while I was in hospital, she had thrown herself off a cliff. I remember her funeral, hugging her daughter, the wildflowers that were picked to decorate her coffin and the dignity her mother and sister showed, during and after the service. 

That's all (too much) from me and now I've spilled my guts, stop calling me a callous asshole. Actually, I don't care what you call me, if it makes you happier. You all fill your boots.

It doesn’t make me happy at all GM, I was just reacting to what you said and the way that you said it. I am happy thank you. You might recall on the Saints List we used to refer to each other as sad old gits when we were in our forties as a joke. I decided to use the name as I thought it was funny. I do buy people in pubs drinks. If you have a pop at people don’t expect them to roll over and say tickle my tummy. For someone who has dealt with this shit I am still surprised that you feel it is ok to post callous posts and tell people that people had it worse in the war and to man up. Some advice, if my posts trigger you, don’t read them. Also it is probably not the best idea to come on to a thread like this and start digging at people. Perhaps keep that for your Trump threads? You know, the ones that don’t suck any oxygen out of the room 🙄
Having read your post again it occurs to me that you haven’t understood where my posts are coming from. I have recounted my experiences from many years ago when I went through a particular hard time in my life. By about 2005/6 I had managed to get myself back on track and apart from the odd blip have been ok since. I have posted my experiences on here in the hope that a) it will help others realise that they are not alone b) it will encourage those struggling to speak up and get help and c) show that if you get help and stick at it there is light at the end of the tunnel. I’m not sure what you find in this to make you so angry and aggressive but having had a go at me for not helping, you have missed the point entirely.

By the way, we were in the pub together a few years back with several members of the Saints List. I seem to recall you not buying me a drink, you miserable bastard! 😉

Edited 5 November, 2021 by sadoldgit
Add

[egg]

8 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Even if you thought stuff like that, what would possess you to post callous stuff like that on a thread like this? It demonstrates zero, empathy, sympathy, compassion and understanding and is if no help at all to anyone struggling with MH issues. He is clearly not a candidate for the Samaritans!

I was sorry to read about your mate Egg. Such a hard thing to live with. Not that it will help but over 6000 people took their own lives in the UK last year. It is the biggest killer of men under the age of 45 and the most at risk group are males between 45 and 49. 

The rate is higher amongst men than women and that is possibly because women are better at building support groups and talking about their problems. As demonstrated here, you never know what you will get when you open up to a group of men. Most will be supportive but there will always be some who, for whatever reasons, won’t be.

As has been said, we are all wired differently and can cope with some things better than others. We all have trigger points and will all find certain things harder than others to cope with. It was a constant thing in The Priory that people would say they were embarrassed for being weak. The councillors always picked this up and said no, you are in here because you were too strong and pushed yourself beyond the point where you needed just to step back and take time out. Yes, there are some things that you can just “man up” and deal with and you can get through it, but prolonged MH stresses need to be dealt with properly and that takes time. There is no band aid for anxiety, depression and stress. The best thing we can do is to try and deal with the damage of the long term effects of these conditions by catching them early, before people become suicidal - that is why talking about these issues is so important. 

We are told nowadays that we need to “be kind”. A better and more effective message is probably “just don’t be an a-hole”.

Cheers SOG. Men's suicide rates are through the roof, and the general unwillingness to talk about their MH is a big issue. Groups like mangang are really helping - I have a few ex army mates suffering ptsd who have found them a literal lifesaver. Their strap line is "its not weak to speak" and that's a message that needs to be heard over the archaic "man up" nonsense.

[hypochondriac]

6 hours ago, egg said:

Cheers SOG. Men's suicide rates are through the roof, and the general unwillingness to talk about their MH is a big issue. Groups like mangang are really helping - I have a few ex army mates suffering ptsd who have found them a literal lifesaver. Their strap line is "its not weak to speak" and that's a message that needs to be heard over the archaic "man up" nonsense.

It's not that I disagree with you and I understand why talking about feelings can be important but I do think there is on occasion a bit of a thing in modern society about oversharing and also that some people encourage men to resolve their issues in very traditionally feminine ways that they may not be comfortable with. In my experience, some mens problems can quite effectively be sorted by some company and spending time with friends. The last thing some of my mates would want is a big long conversation about their feelings, they'd prefer going fishing or having a few beers with their mates. I think there's value in different approaches and it would be a mistake for someone to make assumptions that make suicide is solely because men can't talk about their feelings- sometimes they would not have any desire to because that's not how they would resolve their issues.

[egg]

6 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

It's not that I disagree with you and I understand why talking about feelings can be important but I do think there is on occasion a bit of a thing in modern society about oversharing and also that some people encourage men to resolve their issues in very traditionally feminine ways that they may not be comfortable with. In my experience, some mens problems can quite effectively be sorted by some company and spending time with friends. The last thing some of my mates would want is a big long conversation about their feelings, they'd prefer going fishing or having a few beers with their mates. I think there's value in different approaches and it would be a mistake for someone to make assumptions that make suicide is solely because men can't talk about their feelings- sometimes they would not have any desire to because that's not how they would resolve their issues.

Therein lies much of the problem - male pride, ego and a perception that only women talk about their problems. So the answer is what, bottle it up until it gets so bad that someone near the edge reaches for the rope? 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by egg

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Therein lies much of the problem - male pride, ego and a perception that only women talk about their problems. So the answer is what, bottle it up until it gets so bad that someone near the edge reaches for the rope? 

No you've misunderstood me completely. I'm none of these things by the way-I'm happy to discuss my feelings if required and I've never had any mental health issues. I've never said that only women talk about their problems but it's obvious that women are more willing to discuss feelings all the time and that's not always something that men want to do and that's not necessarily a negative thing. It's not a case of male pride or ego, mens brains are wired differently on average and my point is that talking in depth about feelings is not the universal solution for dealing with any problems that people have of that nature. I know people who have had mental health problems but have never found discussing their feelings all the time to be beneficial and its actually been more detrimental when that's the go to response and they are pressured into doing so. What actually worked for them were other things and I think it's true to say that other approaches can be more effective for some men. 

A lot of therapeutic approaches are created by women and largely with women in mind, therefore you get a lot of discussion about toxic masculinity and rarely do you get the idea of the benefits of masculinity and taking responsibility for your life (it's why the likes of Jordan Peterson has connected with so many young men regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a person.)

Edited 6 November, 2021 by hypochondriac

[egg]

45 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No you've misunderstood me completely. I'm none of these things by the way-I'm happy to discuss my feelings if required and I've never had any mental health issues. I've never said that only women talk about their problems but it's obvious that women are more willing to discuss feelings all the time and that's not always something that men want to do and that's not necessarily a negative thing. It's not a case of male pride or ego, mens brains are wired differently on average and my point is that talking in depth about feelings is not the universal solution for dealing with any problems that people have of that nature. I know people who have had mental health problems but have never found discussing their feelings all the time to be beneficial and its actually been more detrimental when that's the go to response and they are pressured into doing so. What actually worked for them were other things and I think it's true to say that other approaches can be more effective for some men. 

A lot of therapeutic approaches are created by women and largely with women in mind, therefore you get a lot of discussion about toxic masculinity and rarely do you get the idea of the benefits of masculinity and taking responsibility for your life (it's why the likes of Jordan Peterson has connected with so many young men regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a person.)

Forgive me, my comment wasn't a comment or criticism regarding you. Rather, your post highlights what I understand to be a male societal issue.

You highlight that there is a difference between male and female approach to addressing what's going on inside their heads, and all but suggests that should be the acceptable norm. Why should it be? For me there's a direct link between that and the much higher proportion of male suicide. 

Back to ego and pride. In my time around mental health - working and life - men cannot get honest with themselves about how they're feeling, thus have no prospect of dealing with that. It then brews and builds, and that's when disaster can strike. The single most cause of that blockage is pride and ego, ie being perceived of less of a man, is a huge factor, and the consequence is that most men can't or won't talk to other men they know about shit that's bothering them. That's ingrained in us and out society - most of us can't meet a mate in the pub and unload our shit to them.If they can't do that, get to a therapist, a counsellor, anyone that can help unfuck their head. 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by egg

[whelk]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Therein lies much of the problem - male pride, ego and a perception that only women talk about their problems. So the answer is what, bottle it up until it gets so bad that someone near the edge reaches for the rope? 

He wasn’t saying that. I agree with Hypo in that talking/sharing isn’t the silver bullet many seem to think it is. Obviously bottling things up is unhealthy. You also need people who genuinely care unless it’s your therapist.

if you were feeling low going to the football and having a few beers with mates, simple as it is can make you feel better about your life. I know that sounds very basic and it shouldn’t be about putting on a front when with mates but blokes are wired differently.

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

He wasn’t saying that. I agree with Hypo in that talking/sharing isn’t the silver bullet many seem to think it is. Obviously bottling things up is unhealthy. You also need people who genuinely care unless it’s your therapist.

if you were feeling low going to the football and having a few beers with mates, simple as it is can make you feel better about your life. I know that sounds very basic and it shouldn’t be about putting on a front when with mates but blokes are wired differently.

Our posts crossed whelk, my reply to hypo deals with that. 

[whelk]

50 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No you've misunderstood me completely. I'm none of these things by the way-I'm happy to discuss my feelings if required and I've never had any mental health issues. I've never said that only women talk about their problems but it's obvious that women are more willing to discuss feelings all the time and that's not always something that men want to do and that's not necessarily a negative thing. It's not a case of male pride or ego, mens brains are wired differently on average and my point is that talking in depth about feelings is not the universal solution for dealing with any problems that people have of that nature. I know people who have had mental health problems but have never found discussing their feelings all the time to be beneficial and its actually been more detrimental when that's the go to response and they are pressured into doing so. What actually worked for them were other things and I think it's true to say that other approaches can be more effective for some men. 

A lot of therapeutic approaches are created by women and largely with women in mind, therefore you get a lot of discussion about toxic masculinity and rarely do you get the idea of the benefits of masculinity and taking responsibility for your life (it's why the likes of Jordan Peterson has connected with so many young men regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a person.)

I like a lot of. what Peterson has to say although a strange character. Shame his opponents seem t9 think he is the bogey man and want to pull him apart and dismiss everything he says.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, whelk said:

He wasn’t saying that. I agree with Hypo in that talking/sharing isn’t the silver bullet many seem to think it is. Obviously bottling things up is unhealthy. You also need people who genuinely care unless it’s your therapist.

if you were feeling low going to the football and having a few beers with mates, simple as it is can make you feel better about your life. I know that sounds very basic and it shouldn’t be about putting on a front when with mates but blokes are wired differently.

Agreed. Personally I think a large reason for the high male suicide is that on the whole no one actually gives a toss about men and their lives are valued to a much lesser degree than women (some may say fair enough given that women bring children into the world.) If society decided to actually value men to the same degree as women then I believe male suicide rates would see a significant decrease and that wouldn't be because all men were being told that they had to discuss their feelings with other men every time they feel low. 

That's not to say that that approach won't work for some men, but a number of them simply don't want it and its not because they've been conditioned by society its because men and women are different biologically. 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

I like a lot of. what Peterson has to say although a strange character. Shame his opponents seem t9 think he is the bogey man and want to pull him apart and dismiss everything he says.

He has some really interesting things to say and has helped a lot of people. I have to say though I was rather put off by his interview last year about his illness and drug addiction and his bizarre daughter. He came across like a bit of a lunatic. I suppose that's what many incredibly intelligent individuals are like. 

[whelk]

20 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Some background may be worth providing, in terms of what informs me on mental health and then you guys can chose to play the victim game, while actually doing nothing practical to help anyone, apart from having your mutual bullsh!t session.

You see, if someone is anxious or depressed, which is a normal part of life, the long term solution can only come from self awareness and a willingness to make a positive change to cope with the depression or anxiety. A quick bit of advice for sog, despite him calling me an asshole. It is obvious that this particular poster is content with his mental state defining him, rather than him defining his mental state. How do I know this? Well, 15 years ago he joined this forum and chose to call himself sad old git. My advice is change your fucking screen name to "trying to be happier, age is just a number, guy". While  you're doing that, FFS pony up a £5 a year to support this forum. You're just like the miserable guy in the corner of the pub who always expects people to buy him a pint, without buying a drink in return. Pretty quickly the other regulars get pissed off with you sucking the oxygen out of the room. That is the last bit of free advice I will give him, because, as my dear old Dad used to say, some people are only happy when they're miserable.

To the rest of you, here's just part of my experience of mental health. My cousin, a beautiful young woman, developed mental illness after an arsonist set fire to her home, followed by her father, my uncle, passing away. She was in treatment, but the drugs failed to work and she was further treated with electro-convulsive therapy and then committed.  When I  found out she was ill, and it was obvious the medication and ECT hadn't worked, I invited her to stay with me for a couple weeks. We went for walks with the dog, talked about old times and I did everything I could to pick her spirits up. She returned home apparently in good spirits. and when she later found out I was seriously ill in hospital, she sent a lovely letter, in spidery handwriting and from "the looney bin" , thanking me for the holiday and wishing me well. I got out of hospital, returned home to find out that while I was in hospital, she had thrown herself off a cliff. I remember her funeral, hugging her daughter, the wildflowers that were picked to decorate her coffin and the dignity her mother and sister showed, during and after the service. 

That's all (too much) from me and now I've spilled my guts, stop calling me a callous asshole. Actually, I don't care what you call me, if it makes you happier. You all fill your boots.

Appreciate you sharing although seem conflicted. Presumably you wouldn’t have thought it appropriate for someone to say about your cousin that they set fire to their car giving by their dad? I think a more ‘there by the grace of God go I’ approach needs to be applied to those suffering.

[whelk]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

He has some really interesting things to say and has helped a lot of people. I have to say though I was rather put off by his interview last year about his illness and drug addiction and his bizarre daughter. He came across like a bit of a lunatic. I suppose that's what many incredibly intelligent individuals are like. 

Tbh most of what I read or listened to was prior to his massive rise to fame. I heard he became ill but as I had heard most of what he said already dint really keep up with the news and other more recent interviews. When he says there are good reasons for some to be depressed eg being unemployed he is right. Telling someone you feel shit and worthless and inferior to others who can have access to better things isn’t the solution! Getting a job is the key way out of it. 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by whelk

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Tbh most of what I read or listened to was prior to his massive rise to fame. I heard he became ill but as I had heard most of what he said already dint really keep up with the news and other more recent interviews. When he says there are good reasons for some to be depressed eg being unemployed he is right. Telling someone you feel shit and worthless and inferior to others who can have access to better things isn’t the solution! Getting a job is the key way out of it. 

Yes that's my point its about personal responsibility. Some people feel worthless because in a lot of ways they are and you need to put in effort to improve your circumstances in whatever way you can. For many that's going to improve your mental health to a greater degree than sitting around talking about how bad you feel. 

My other point is worth repeating as well. Men have higher suicide rates not because they won't speak about their feelings in the same way that women do but because they aren't valued by society anywhere near as much as women are. If that was fixed then it would largely solve the issue imo. 

[whelk]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Agreed. Personally I think a large reason for the high male suicide is that on the whole no one actually gives a toss about men and their lives are valued to a much lesser degree than women (some may say fair enough given that women bring children into the world.) If society decided to actually value men to the same degree as women then I believe male suicide rates would see a significant decrease and that wouldn't be because all men were being told that they had to discuss their feelings with other men every time they feel low. 

That's not to say that that approach won't work for some men, but a number of them simply don't want it and its not because they've been conditioned by society its because men and women are different biologically. 

I think a lot of women can struggle in workplace as feel they need to match men. So they put up just as much of a front being tough and can suffer from imposter syndrome. I work with a lot of female managers and some have confided in me and even broken down in catch ups. 
I know I am a bit old school but also believe most women like their man to be the protector ie not a wimp, despite what they may say. That puts pressure on men to be all things ie tender and macho

 

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

I think a lot of women can struggle in workplace as feel they need to match men. So they put up just as much of a front being tough and can suffer from imposter syndrome. I work with a lot of female managers and some have confided in me and even broken down in catch ups. 
I know I am a bit old school but also believe most women like their man to be the protector ie not a wimp, despite what they may say. That puts pressure on men to be all things ie tender and macho

 

I don't think that's old school, it's reality. It's why shit like 50 shades of grey sold so many copies. It's the kind of thing that everyone knows to be true but it won't be spoken about often because it makes people uncomfortable. 

[egg]

@hypochondriac never heard of Jordan Peterson and just read some of his stuff. His 12 rules are interesting. Lots of sense in all of them although number 4 is a strange one...it pre supposes the day before was a good one and that we were a decent version of ourselves that day. Food for thought though, cheers. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, egg said:

@hypochondriac never heard of Jordan Peterson and just read some of his stuff. His 12 rules are interesting. Lots of sense in all of them although number 4 is a strange one...it pre supposes the day before was a good one and that we were a decent version of ourselves that day. Food for thought though, cheers. 

I'm very surprised you haven't heard of him. He shot to super stardom a few years ago and his 12 rules book has been a bestseller and credited with saving a fair amount of lives and straightening people out. You should also watch his long interview with Cathy Newman of Channel 4 infamy if you want a chuckle and a face-palm at the state of news reporting. Recommended. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I'm very surprised you haven't heard of him. He shot to super stardom a few years ago and his 12 rules book has been a bestseller and credited with saving a fair amount of lives and straightening people out. You should also watch his long interview with Cathy Newman of Channel 4 infamy if you want a chuckle and a face-palm at the state of news reporting. Recommended. 

Me neither! He gets off the fence and has a different thought process. That number 4 flips other widely held views on their head, but there is a logic to it and it'll get me thinking. I'll watch that interview, cheers 👍

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Me neither! He gets off the fence and has a different thought process. That number 4 flips other widely held views on their head, but there is a logic to it and it'll get me thinking. I'll watch that interview, cheers 👍

I think his point with rule 4 is about seeking your own self improvement and concentrate on being better than you were yesterday rather than comparing yourself to someone else. His lectures on the bible are very good too,particularly if you're not religious. His view is that the Bible contains universal truths about life and there's deep wisdom in it. Makes you think about it in a completely different way. 

Like I said earlier has become a bit odd in the last couple of years but he's definitely worth listening to if you want a good think about life and your mental health. 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Lighthouse]

I did think of prof. Peterson reading this thread a few days ago. One point I would definitely argue, which I believe he has alluded to in interviews, is how masculinity is basically under attack and men are being demonised for their nature. I’m not talking about serious sexual assaults, I mean mannerisms which the large majority of us will display to some extent.

The refusal by some aspects of society to accept that men and women are different is pressuring both sides into things they don’t necessarily want to do. I think the biggest misconception is that because leaders and CEOs are so predominantly male, it must be a sexist, man’s world and we have an unfair advantage. In reality the world is like that because men NEED to succeed and more importantly compete with each other. Our entire psyche has evolved around proving we are the best possible sperm donor to nearby females. People not to mention the flip side of the coin, which is than many men who aren’t succeeding in this way are often very unhappy with themselves. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

I did think of prof. Peterson reading this thread a few days ago. One point I would definitely argue, which I believe he has alluded to in interviews, is how masculinity is basically under attack and men are being demonised for their nature. I’m not talking about serious sexual assaults, I mean mannerisms which the large majority of us will display to some extent.

The refusal by some aspects of society to accept that men and women are different is pressuring both sides into things they don’t necessarily want to do. I think the biggest misconception is that because leaders and CEOs are so predominantly male, it must be a sexist, man’s world and we have an unfair advantage. In reality the world is like that because men NEED to succeed and more importantly compete with each other. Our entire psyche has evolved around proving we are the best possible sperm donor to nearby females. People not to mention the flip side of the coin, which is than many men who aren’t succeeding in this way are often very unhappy with themselves. 

Absolutely. One thing he has quoted often is about Scandinavia and how the differences between the seces are more pronounced when people are given more choice. No matter how much some people try to pretend that being gender fluid exists and that everything is a social construct we can't deny the differences between the sexes. The attempt to do so is behind many of the mental health issues and the problems in society. 

[egg]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think his point with rule 4 is about seeking your own self improvement and concentrate on being better than you were yesterday rather than comparing yourself to someone else. His lectures on the bible are very good too,particularly if you're not religious. His view is that the Bible contains universal truths about life and there's deep wisdom in it. Makes you think about it in a completely different way. 

Like I said earlier has become a bit odd in the last couple of years but he's definitely worth listening to if you want a good think about life and your mental health. 

I wasn't thinking about comparison to others, rather that the day before has gone, so live in the present day. His point seems to be that if you were decent yesterday, but not so today, then be the person to were yesterday. The flip of that is that if you were shite yesterday, trying to replicate that ain't a good idea and neither is dwelling on it. The obvious middle ground is reflection on it and learning. I'll take a look at his stuff and I'm intrigued to know what he says about the bible - I have certain views on God but I'm not religious and struggle with the Christian view on forgiveness, I'm more about learning from life, changing and developing. I'll check this guy out. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I wasn't thinking about comparison to others, rather that the day before has gone, so live in the present day. His point seems to be that if you were decent yesterday, but not so today, then be the person to were yesterday. The flip of that is that if you were shite yesterday, trying to replicate that ain't a good idea and neither is dwelling on it. The obvious middle ground is reflection on it and learning. I'll take a look at his stuff and I'm intrigued to know what he says about the bible - I have certain views on God but I'm not religious and struggle with the Christian view on forgiveness, I'm more about learning from life, changing and developing. I'll check this guy out. 

Some of its a bit high brow but I thought the idea of viewing the bible as a valuable book of wisdom passed down over a great period of time that contains universal truths to be really interesting and it made me look at Christianity differently. It's certainly a more relatable way to look at things than the idea that most of the stuff described in it ever actually happened. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Some of its a bit high brow but I thought the idea of viewing the bible as a valuable book of wisdom passed down over a great period of time that contains universal truths to be really interesting and it made me look at Christianity differently. It's certainly a more relatable way to look at things than the idea that most of the stuff described in it ever actually happened. 

I really hope this doesn’t act as a dog whistle for MLG. Thread been interesting so far

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

I really hope this doesn’t act as a dog whistle for MLG. Thread been interesting so far

I did think about that as I typed those words!

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Absolutely. One thing he has quoted often is about Scandinavia and how the differences between the seces are more pronounced when people are given more choice. No matter how much some people try to pretend that being gender fluid exists and that everything is a social construct we can't deny the differences between the sexes. The attempt to do so is behind many of the mental health issues and the problems in society. 

I’ve seen one interview where he went into the uptake in STEM subjects in Scandinavia, it didn’t surprise me in the slightest. Similar things have happened with women too, recent years have seen a concerted movement against things like page 3, so called ‘lads magazines’, F1 grid girls and even strip clubs. The ideological belief is that if we get rid of all these ancient, misogynistic ideas the young women involved will somehow throw off the shackles of male oppression and go to law/med school. In reality we’ve got Instagram and Only Fans and more young women than ever are choosing to get involved. Page 3 girls used to be household names 20 odd years ago, now it’s so prevalent pretty much anyone can give it a go.

 

Not that I’m holding that up as an archetype example to young women but it shows the same thing very clearly. Give people more freedom of choice and they will naturally flow towards their own instincts and not some ideologues paradigm of equality.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Some of its a bit high brow but I thought the idea of viewing the bible as a valuable book of wisdom passed down over a great period of time that contains universal truths to be really interesting and it made me look at Christianity differently. It's certainly a more relatable way to look at things than the idea that most of the stuff described in it ever actually happened. 

I'm of the view that much of the bible stuff isn't intended to be a factual reference, rather a way of getting thoughts and principles across. It's the whole forgiveness from jesus thing that I struggle with though. I make mistakes, we all do, that's human nature. What I want to do is develop as a person by learning from mistakes, not dwelling on them until I get forgiveness. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I did think about that as I typed those words!

I should have thought of that when I typed my last post...red rag to a bull in hindsight! 

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

I should have thought of that when I typed my last post...red rag to a bull in hindsight! 

Lighthouse can boot him off if he starts one of his Deuteronomy rants and how he wants to fuck toasters

Edited 6 November, 2021 by whelk

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Lighthouse can boot him off if he starts one of his Deuteronomy rants and how he wants to fuck toasters

👍

[whelk]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

I'm of the view that much of the bible stuff isn't intended to be a factual reference, rather a way of getting thoughts and principles across. It's the whole forgiveness from jesus thing that I struggle with though. I make mistakes, we all do, that's human nature. What I want to do is develop as a person by learning from mistakes, not dwelling on them until I get forgiveness. 

Basic premise is that none of us are good enough so all need forgiveness. Whilst of course can pick holes with it but is a tolerant viewpoint not often seen by Bible zealots

[Lighthouse]

I think religious texts of that era still hold gravitas because they are a basic blueprint for hierarchy, which is what we need. We are tribal mammals and not everyone can be, or is suitable to be, an alpha. Stuff like respecting your elders, not killing, not stealing etc.  Still resonates to this day. Add in a solution to our natural fear of death, by way of an afterlife and a play on our natural fear of an unknown, apex predator (whichever ‘god’ you believe in) and it’s easy to see how even 3000 year old belief systems are still popular.

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Lighthouse can boot him off if he starts one of his Deuteronomy rants and how he wants to fuck toasters

Nobody tell him we’re here. I’ll jingle my car keys to distract him.

[egg]

23 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

I think religious texts of that era still hold gravitas because they are a basic blueprint for hierarchy, which is what we need. We are tribal mammals and not everyone can be, or is suitable to be, an alpha. Stuff like respecting your elders, not killing, not stealing etc.  Still resonates to this day. Add in a solution to our natural fear of death, by way of an afterlife and a play on our natural fear of an unknown, apex predator (whichever ‘god’ you believe in) and it’s easy to see how even 3000 year old belief systems are still popular.

True, and relating that to MH and self improvement, the 7 sins all provide an opposite which are no bad thing for us to strive for in how we live our lives...we're all guilty of at least a part of some of them in our lives. 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by egg

[sadoldgit]

5 hours ago, egg said:

Therein lies much of the problem - male pride, ego and a perception that only women talk about their problems. So the answer is what, bottle it up until it gets so bad that someone near the edge reaches for the rope? 

Exactly. There are plenty of men who go to the pub, go fishing, go to the football and have a perfectly good social life who end up as one of these statistics. As with drug, alcohol,gambling additions etc, half the battle is admitting to yourself that you have a problem. Once you cross that barrier you can work out the best way for you to deal with it. Other people can provide support but this is serious stuff and by far the best way forward is to go and see a doctor in the first instance, but professional help is a must.

As with any many medical conditions the earlier the condition is identified, the better the prognosis. Once you get to the point where you are having suicidal thoughts you are way past the point of sorting it out over a pint in the pub with your mate.

As men we are constantly told that men don’t cry (just look at the grief Ralph got when he shed some tears after beating Liverpool). We are supposed to be strong, be problem solvers, be providers. The expression “man up” tells you all you need to know. Frankly it is bollocks and we need to accept that we are all human, fallible and sometimes cannot cope with what life throws at us. There is absolutely no shame in admitting that and getting help. 

When I was first prescribed with anti depressants the doctor said “don’t worry, half the country are on them”.  This was some time ago and I am sure the figure is higher now.

I don’t think that we should get too bogged down in why more men take their own lives as mental health issues are a problem for both sexes and we need to be doing more to raise awareness so that everyone is aware of the warning signs and what to do so that, hopefully, less people will find themselves in a position where their MH is spiralling out of control to the extent that they cannot function as normal.

[hypochondriac]

32 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Exactly. There are plenty of men who go to the pub, go fishing, go to the football and have a perfectly good social life who end up as one of these statistics. As with drug, alcohol,gambling additions etc, half the battle is admitting to yourself that you have a problem. Once you cross that barrier you can work out the best way for you to deal with it. Other people can provide support but this is serious stuff and by far the best way forward is to go and see a doctor in the first instance, but professional help is a must.

As with any many medical conditions the earlier the condition is identified, the better the prognosis. Once you get to the point where you are having suicidal thoughts you are way past the point of sorting it out over a pint in the pub with your mate.

As men we are constantly told that men don’t cry (just look at the grief Ralph got when he shed some tears after beating Liverpool). We are supposed to be strong, be problem solvers, be providers. The expression “man up” tells you all you need to know. Frankly it is bollocks and we need to accept that we are all human, fallible and sometimes cannot cope with what life throws at us. There is absolutely no shame in admitting that and getting help. 

When I was first prescribed with anti depressants the doctor said “don’t worry, half the country are on them”.  This was some time ago and I am sure the figure is higher now.

I don’t think that we should get too bogged down in why more men take their own lives as mental health issues are a problem for both sexes and we need to be doing more to raise awareness so that everyone is aware of the warning signs and what to do so that, hopefully, less people will find themselves in a position where their MH is spiralling out of control to the extent that they cannot function as normal.

This is one reason you get people's backs up. You talk with such a degree of certainty about something and you don't imagine there are any shades of grey. Yes it may be the case that professional help was best for you but that doesn't mean that that's the best or only option. You don't get to dismiss the real mental health issues of men by suggesting that the problems for all sexes are the same and that the solutions will be universal for both male and female. That imo is the main problem in the first place and the reason we see the cast disparity between make and female suicide rates. People like you don't want to treat male mental health issues as a specific problem that requires a range of solutions and you don't want to face up to the fact that if men were valued more rather than abused or laughed at that the problem would be lessened. Not sure why I tried to reply to you sensibly as you would think I would have learnt by now. 

Edited 6 November, 2021 by hypochondriac

[whelk]

51 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Exactly. There are plenty of men who go to the pub, go fishing, go to the football and have a perfectly good social life who end up as one of these statistics. As with drug, alcohol,gambling additions etc, half the battle is admitting to yourself that you have a problem. Once you cross that barrier you can work out the best way for you to deal with it. Other people can provide support but this is serious stuff and by far the best way forward is to go and see a doctor in the first instance, but professional help is a must.

As with any many medical conditions the earlier the condition is identified, the better the prognosis. Once you get to the point where you are having suicidal thoughts you are way past the point of sorting it out over a pint in the pub with your mate.

As men we are constantly told that men don’t cry (just look at the grief Ralph got when he shed some tears after beating Liverpool). We are supposed to be strong, be problem solvers, be providers. The expression “man up” tells you all you need to know. Frankly it is bollocks and we need to accept that we are all human, fallible and sometimes cannot cope with what life throws at us. There is absolutely no shame in admitting that and getting help. 

When I was first prescribed with anti depressants the doctor said “don’t worry, half the country are on them”.  This was some time ago and I am sure the figure is higher now.

I don’t think that we should get too bogged down in why more men take their own lives as mental health issues are a problem for both sexes and we need to be doing more to raise awareness so that everyone is aware of the warning signs and what to do so that, hopefully, less people will find themselves in a position where their MH is spiralling out of control to the extent that they cannot function as normal.

Ralph crying was pathetic. You may say it is toxic masculinity but we expect strength from leaders. Of course it is ok to cry but there are plenty who seem I’ll equipped to cope and dare I suggest there is a degree of narcissism and expect someone to help them. Often same people are not necessarily over sympathetic to others plight as it is all about them and their lives. We are also lucky to live in a society where people can have huge bouts of sickness and still get paid  - if they were going hungry as a result of their absences they might be more inclined to soldier on.

I know ‘man up’ isn’t a solution(and annoys you) to all MH issues but should not be dismissed out of hand as a dinosaur’s solution. 

 

[Lighthouse]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ralph crying was pathetic. You may say it is toxic masculinity but we expect strength from leaders. Of course it is ok to cry but there are plenty who seem I’ll equipped to cope and dare I suggest there is a degree of narcissism and expect someone to help them. Often same people are not necessarily over sympathetic to others plight as it is all about them and their lives. We are also lucky to live in a society where people can have huge bouts of sickness and still get paid  - if they were going hungry as a result of their absences they might be more inclined to soldier on.

I know ‘man up’ isn’t a solution(and annoys you) to all MH issues but should not be dismissed out of hand as a dinosaur’s solution. 

 

I’d agree with that. There does appear to be an increasing number of people in society who have been spoiled emotionally, to a point that they can’t accept fault, blame, criticism or failure. It’s not like it makes them particularly happy either, they just have a warped view of what the world owes them and no resilience when they don’t get it.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Exactly. There are plenty of men who go to the pub, go fishing, go to the football and have a perfectly good social life who end up as one of these statistics. As with drug, alcohol,gambling additions etc, half the battle is admitting to yourself that you have a problem. Once you cross that barrier you can work out the best way for you to deal with it. Other people can provide support but this is serious stuff and by far the best way forward is to go and see a doctor in the first instance, but professional help is a must.

As with any many medical conditions the earlier the condition is identified, the better the prognosis. Once you get to the point where you are having suicidal thoughts you are way past the point of sorting it out over a pint in the pub with your mate.

As men we are constantly told that men don’t cry (just look at the grief Ralph got when he shed some tears after beating Liverpool). We are supposed to be strong, be problem solvers, be providers. The expression “man up” tells you all you need to know. Frankly it is bollocks and we need to accept that we are all human, fallible and sometimes cannot cope with what life throws at us. There is absolutely no shame in admitting that and getting help. 

When I was first prescribed with anti depressants the doctor said “don’t worry, half the country are on them”.  This was some time ago and I am sure the figure is higher now.

I don’t think that we should get too bogged down in why more men take their own lives as mental health issues are a problem for both sexes and we need to be doing more to raise awareness so that everyone is aware of the warning signs and what to do so that, hopefully, less people will find themselves in a position where their MH is spiralling out of control to the extent that they cannot function as normal.

Half the country being on anti depressants says more about our health care system. They’d rather throw a pill in you than address the underlying cause. You should listen to Dr Chaterjee, he does a regular, very good podcast and believes pills should be the last resort not the first and that the 70% of his patients can be sorted out by lifestyle changes not medication. 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, whelk said:

Ralph crying was pathetic. You may say it is toxic masculinity but we expect strength from leaders. Of course it is ok to cry but there are plenty who seem I’ll equipped to cope and dare I suggest there is a degree of narcissism and expect someone to help them. Often same people are not necessarily over sympathetic to others plight as it is all about them and their lives. We are also lucky to live in a society where people can have huge bouts of sickness and still get paid  - if they were going hungry as a result of their absences they might be more inclined to soldier on.

I know ‘man up’ isn’t a solution(and annoys you) to all MH issues but should not be dismissed out of hand as a dinosaur’s solution. 

 

Pathetic? I shed a tear when Rickie scored with his first touch of the ball for England and when MLT scored the winner in his last game against Arsenal. Is that pathetic? I just saw it as a huge release of emotion and it obviously meant a lot to him. I find it refreshing to have a manger who wants to win so badly, I’m sure you can remember managers slagged off for not seeming to care. Still, we all have different opinions.

[whelk]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

Pathetic? I shed a tear when Rickie scored with his first touch of the ball for England and when MLT scored the winner in his last game against Arsenal. Is that pathetic? I just saw it as a huge release of emotion and it obviously meant a lot to him. I find it refreshing to have a manger who wants to win so badly, I’m sure you can remember managers slagged off for not seeming to care. Still, we all have different opinions.

It was a 1-0 league game. Routine albeit against the champions but might have been acceptable if got promoted, won a final. The point being society does not expect men to cry openly especially over a football match FFS. A bee sting maybe.

[whelk]

I must also admit I liked the ‘You cried on the telly’ chants to Steve Smith.

From the excellent fly on wall documentary ‘The Test’ it really wound up the Aussies.

[hypochondriac]

24 minutes ago, whelk said:

It was a 1-0 league game. Routine albeit against the champions but might have been acceptable if got promoted, won a final. The point being society does not expect men to cry openly especially over a football match FFS. A bee sting maybe.

I'll be honest I really didn't care about Ralph crying. The only thing I thought was that it suggested he had a bit of a small time mentality if he got that emotional about something that really wasn't the biggest deal ever. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I'll be honest I really didn't care about Ralph crying. The only thing I thought was that it suggested he had a bit of a small time mentality if he got that emotional about something that really wasn't the biggest deal ever. 

Agree and irrelevant to the thread

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, whelk said:

Agree and irrelevant to the thread

The only thing I would say is that the reluctance for some men to cry being linked to high rates of male suicide is a load of b*locks in my opinion. If you had a load of blokes weeping at every bit of adversity I'd feel a bit unnerved. Enduring and showing a bit of resilience can in the long run actually be beneficial to mental health because it can equip you with the tools required to endure difficult times. It's just another example of people looking for feminine solutions to a male problem and it's why it's laughable to pretend that male and female mental health is all the same thing and all require the same solutions. 

[sadoldgit]

13 minutes ago, whelk said:

Agree and irrelevant to the thread

It is relevant to the thread. We are talking about how men have been taught not to express their emotions and are sometimes ridiculed when they do.( Whatever others think, the Liverpool result clearly meant a great deal to him).

[egg]

18 minutes ago, whelk said:

Agree and irrelevant to the thread

Yep. Ralph crying ain't a sign of a mental attitude illness or weakness. It's a bloke showing his emotions. What I disagree with is criticism of him for displaying his emotions. Crying isn't necessary, but if that's his reaction, it's nobody else's business.