Mental Health Discussion

[whelk]

43 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

So unlike you to make snotty remarks about something you know absolutely nothing about🙄. If you had bothered to read what I said earlier rather than rush on and make a dig you would have seen that she/he was very shut down when we met. We shared many group therapy sessions and she didn’t open up with the help of trained therapists so why do you think she/he would confide in me? Those of us that knew them were all surprised when we found out that they had changed sex. I don’t even think that the therapists knew that was what was making them so unhappy. This was 17 years ago so perhaps harder to talk about then ? You may not give a “shiney shit” about what some people are going through and seem quite happy to go through life pretending that we are still in the 60’s and 70’s where “birds” and “chicks” are defined by how many pints you would have to drink before you deigned to have sex with them, but the world has moved on mate. We are still at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to dealing with mental health and emotional health issues. Point scoring or making cheap digs does not help.

What were you in there for Soggy?

[sadoldgit]

On 26/10/2021 at 15:17, whelk said:

What were you in there for Soggy?

Sorry for the delay in responding Whelk but I had run out of posts by the time I read this. I think I have gone into my mental health issues in depth before so won’t bore people with that all again but in the summer of 2000 I had what we used to call, in the good old days, a nervous breakdown. The NHS were very poor at dealing with this stuff back then (they aren’t much better now to be perfectly honest) so we soldiered on with meds and very basic therapy until I hit another wall in late 2003. Fortunately I was sent to see the company doctor when I was signed off sick for a week and he diagnosed that I was a “smiling” depressive - someone who covers up their depressive state by making light of things - and suggested that I go and see them at the Priory under the company insurance policy. They treat people with anxiety, depression and stress as well as those with addictions and eating disorders. It was very helpful. They use mostly Cognitive Behavial Therapy - changing the way you feel by changing the way you think - in group sessions as well as teaching you about the effects of anxiety depression and stress on the mind and body. It was more like going to college than going to therapy. I was treated as an outpatient as were most of us but did spend a week or two as an inpatient when they changed my meds so that they could monitor the effects. I spent my 50th birthday in The Priory! It is hugely expensive and eventually the insurance money ran out so I was back under the NHS again after about 6 months or so apart from the occasional follow up visit. I gave up on the NHS and found various cheaper private alternatives, including hypnotherapy. I think I did various therapy sessions from between 2000 and 2005 and did a top up hypnotherapy course about 3 years ago as my anxiety attacks were coming back when driving on motorways. I actually think that everybody should have an annual mental health check but the NHS couldn’t cope with the amount of work that would generate. It would also help if schools, colleges and universities could add in sessions about CBT and other basic therapies. We are becoming more aware about the effects that anxiety, depression and stress have on the mind and body but there is still a very long way to go. It used to get swept under the carpet and bottled up which is the worse thing you can do when suffering from mental health problems. At least people are more open about it now and are encouraged to talk about it more. I would imagine that most of us either know someone or of someone who has taken their own life because they could no longer cope. It should never get that far. I was very fortunate that I was able to find the help I needed but those solely reliant on the NHS really struggle through lack of funding and resources.

[egg]

4 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Sorry for the delay in responding Whelk but I had run out of posts by the time I read this. I think I have gone into my mental health issues in depth before so won’t bore people with that all again but in the summer of 2000 I had what we used to call, in the good old days, a nervous breakdown. The NHS were very poor at dealing with this stuff back then (they aren’t much better now to be perfectly honest) so we soldiered on with meds and very basic therapy until I hit another wall in late 2003. Fortunately I was sent to see the company doctor when I was signed off sick for a week and he diagnosed that I was a “smiling” depressive - someone who covers up their depressive state by making light of things - and suggested that I go and see them at the Priory under the company insurance policy. They treat people with anxiety, depression and stress as well as those with addictions and eating disorders. It was very helpful. They use mostly Cognitive Behavial Therapy - changing the way you feel by changing the way you think - in group sessions as well as teaching you about the effects of anxiety depression and stress on the mind and body. It was more like going to college than going to therapy. I was treated as an outpatient as were most of us but did spend a week or two as an inpatient when they changed my meds so that they could monitor the effects. I spent my 50th birthday in The Priory! It is hugely expensive and eventually the insurance money ran out so I was back under the NHS again after about 6 months or so apart from the occasional follow up visit. I gave up on the NHS and found various cheaper private alternatives, including hypnotherapy. I think I did various therapy sessions from between 2000 and 2005 and did a top up hypnotherapy course about 3 years ago as my anxiety attacks were coming back when driving on motorways. I actually think that everybody should have an annual mental health check but the NHS couldn’t cope with the amount of work that would generate. It would also help if schools, colleges and universities could add in sessions about CBT and other basic therapies. We are becoming more aware about the effects that anxiety, depression and stress have on the mind and body but there is still a very long way to go. It used to get swept under the carpet and bottled up which is the worse thing you can do when suffering from mental health problems. At least people are more open about it now and are encouraged to talk about it more. I would imagine that most of us either know someone or of someone who has taken their own life because they could no longer cope. It should never get that far. I was very fortunate that I was able to find the help I needed but those solely reliant on the NHS really struggle through lack of funding and resources.

Thanks SOG for posting that.

There's too much stigma and judgement re MH, and there shouldn't be. If my back goes I see an osteopath, so to prevent that from happening, I go for sports injury massage. Our minds and MH need that preventative attention too. 

The NHS is great, but shocking re MH. I grew up with parents with MH issues and back then it was pills and a label, not therapy and CBT etc. One of my kids has serious MH issues and the NHS have been shocking. Fortunately, good help was/is available via the Priory, but for those who can't afford these private sources, it must be bloody dreadful. 

[sadoldgit]

5 hours ago, egg said:

Thanks SOG for posting that.

There's too much stigma and judgement re MH, and there shouldn't be. If my back goes I see an osteopath, so to prevent that from happening, I go for sports injury massage. Our minds and MH need that preventative attention too. 

The NHS is great, but shocking re MH. I grew up with parents with MH issues and back then it was pills and a label, not therapy and CBT etc. One of my kids has serious MH issues and the NHS have been shocking. Fortunately, good help was/is available via the Priory, but for those who can't afford these private sources, it must be bloody dreadful. 

Sorry to hear that one of your kids has MH problems Egg. It is a huge worry but it sounds like they are getting the treatment they need. I hope that it all goes well. 👍

[egg]

46 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Sorry to hear that one of your kids has MH problems Egg. It is a huge worry but it sounds like they are getting the treatment they need. I hope that it all goes well. 👍

Thanks SOG, very much appreciated 👍

[whelk]

22 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Sorry for the delay in responding Whelk but I had run out of posts by the time I read this. I think I have gone into my mental health issues in depth before so won’t bore people with that all again but in the summer of 2000 I had what we used to call, in the good old days, a nervous breakdown. The NHS were very poor at dealing with this stuff back then (they aren’t much better now to be perfectly honest) so we soldiered on with meds and very basic therapy until I hit another wall in late 2003. Fortunately I was sent to see the company doctor when I was signed off sick for a week and he diagnosed that I was a “smiling” depressive - someone who covers up their depressive state by making light of things - and suggested that I go and see them at the Priory under the company insurance policy. They treat people with anxiety, depression and stress as well as those with addictions and eating disorders. It was very helpful. They use mostly Cognitive Behavial Therapy - changing the way you feel by changing the way you think - in group sessions as well as teaching you about the effects of anxiety depression and stress on the mind and body. It was more like going to college than going to therapy. I was treated as an outpatient as were most of us but did spend a week or two as an inpatient when they changed my meds so that they could monitor the effects. I spent my 50th birthday in The Priory! It is hugely expensive and eventually the insurance money ran out so I was back under the NHS again after about 6 months or so apart from the occasional follow up visit. I gave up on the NHS and found various cheaper private alternatives, including hypnotherapy. I think I did various therapy sessions from between 2000 and 2005 and did a top up hypnotherapy course about 3 years ago as my anxiety attacks were coming back when driving on motorways. I actually think that everybody should have an annual mental health check but the NHS couldn’t cope with the amount of work that would generate. It would also help if schools, colleges and universities could add in sessions about CBT and other basic therapies. We are becoming more aware about the effects that anxiety, depression and stress have on the mind and body but there is still a very long way to go. It used to get swept under the carpet and bottled up which is the worse thing you can do when suffering from mental health problems. At least people are more open about it now and are encouraged to talk about it more. I would imagine that most of us either know someone or of someone who has taken their own life because they could no longer cope. It should never get that far. I was very fortunate that I was able to find the help I needed but those solely reliant on the NHS really struggle through lack of funding and resources.

Interesting background cheers.  More you know about people the harder it is to be unkind or rude. Which is why social media can be so vile.

hopefully you have got a thick skin for the abuse you get on here albeit some of your own making

[whelk]

22 hours ago, egg said:

Thanks SOG for posting that.

There's too much stigma and judgement re MH, and there shouldn't be. If my back goes I see an osteopath, so to prevent that from happening, I go for sports injury massage. Our minds and MH need that preventative attention too. 

The NHS is great, but shocking re MH. I grew up with parents with MH issues and back then it was pills and a label, not therapy and CBT etc. One of my kids has serious MH issues and the NHS have been shocking. Fortunately, good help was/is available via the Priory, but for those who can't afford these private sources, it must be bloody dreadful. 

Yes to get CAMHS services for kids you almost need to have had a suicide attempt. Completely overrun and criminal the wealth of our economy that such services are massively underfunded.

[egg]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Yes to get CAMHS services for kids you almost need to have had a suicide attempt. Completely overrun and criminal the wealth of our economy that such services are massively underfunded.

Yep. Not even that gets proper help sadly. I was hearing the other day of an average 16 week wait time for people on crisis to even be triaged. Appalling. 

[Lighthouse]

Split from the LGBT thread, as I think it's an interesting topic which will have affected pretty much everyone on here at some point in their lives. It probably deserves and will receive a lot more compassion than will likely be shown on other topics.

[The Cat]

6 hours ago, whelk said:

Yes to get CAMHS services for kids you almost need to have had a suicide attempt. Completely overrun and criminal the wealth of our economy that such services are massively underfunded.

One of my staff has a son with chronic problems. He had pretty decent support from CAMHS but has turned 18 and is now lost in the adult system.

One of the most positive things in the last few years has been companies recognising the issues around mental health as often previously the attitude was "get on with it" which is the sort of thing that ends up breaking people.

I definitely had some issues about 5 years ago, was massively stressed for a long time and it took a full on panic attack for me to actually admit and address the issue. My manager at the time was amazing and when I looked back I could tell she realised I was in a bad way but I just kept saying I was fine until eventually I wasn't.

Edited 31 October, 2021 by The Cat

[sadoldgit]

8 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Split from the LGBT thread, as I think it's an interesting topic which will have affected pretty much everyone on here at some point in their lives. It probably deserves and will receive a lot more compassion than will likely be shown on other topics.

Good call Lighthouse. I came on here to start a MH thread myself and agree that (hopefully) it will not degenerate into the usual slagging matches.

[Guided Missile]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

“I came on here to start a MH thread myself and agree that (hopefully) it will not degenerate into the usual slagging matches.”

Then in the very next post rant on another crusade slagging everyone off. I was starting to have a bit of sympathy for you as well. 
 

you do abuse. you’ve repeatedly called me a narcissist, last week you had a dig at my relationship with my wife as I was on here whilst on holiday before we even go into the ongoing accusations of racism against not just me but many others that don’t agree with your self righteous views. Far right,  Donald Trump and Tommy Robinson fan club aren’t we. Certainly I’ve never said anything to you that is worse than any of that. Pathetically pretending to have people on ignore whilst responding and reply to their posts. Yet you carry on playing the innocent victim. 
 

If you don’t like getting a hard time then maybe you should look in the mirror first. Apologies to everyone else who had started to make some interesting points On a difficult subject.

 

I couldn't agree more with this. Many people with depression who are unable to deal with it, often react, by depressing everyone else they interact with. As they say, misery loves company. The support of family and friends always helps, in mild forms of mental health, as does, most importantly, self-help, often via cognitive therapy.  Forget therapists and drugs. They are not a long term solution, IMHO.

My personal experience of severe mental illness within a family, sometimes means that nothing can be done, even with your closest loved ones. You do your best, but if someone wants to top themselves, they will eventually succeed. Tragic, sad, frustrating and overwhelmingly a waste of a life, but shit happens. You do your best and that's about all you can do.

As far as whining snowflakes looking for help on a football message board, take a look at the WW2 generation and the Jewish state, for examples of dealing with real issues and fucking pull yourself together. The only reliable place to find sympathy, is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary. Certainly not here. If all else fails, it is always worth trying your local church, though. They happen to believe there is a God and that he loves us.  

[sadoldgit]

4 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

I couldn't agree more with this. Many people with depression who are unable to deal with it, often react, by depressing everyone else they interact with. As they say, misery loves company. The support of family and friends always helps, in mild forms of mental health, as does, most importantly, self-help, often via cognitive therapy.  Forget therapists and drugs. They are not a long term solution, IMHO.

My personal experience of severe mental illness within a family, sometimes means that nothing can be done, even with your closest loved ones. You do your best, but if someone wants to top themselves, they will eventually succeed. Tragic, sad, frustrating and overwhelmingly a waste of a life, but shit happens. You do your best and that's about all you can do.

As far as whining snowflakes looking for help on a football message board, take a look at the WW2 generation and the Jewish state, for examples of dealing with real issues and fucking pull yourself together. The only reliable place to find sympathy, is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary. Certainly not here. If all else fails, it is always worth trying your local church, though. They happen to believe there is a God and that he loves us.  

You’re all heart aren’t you GM, and as usual, show that you are absolutely clueless. “Real issues” are relative to the individual, whether it is living through air raids, or trying to deal with an abusive marriage. Stress anxiety and depression affect the mind and body in the same way, no matter what the stimulus. If you had an ounce of empathy, understanding or sympathy you would know that.

[Sheaf Saint]

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

 

Classic SOG

In all fairness, calling GM clueless after posting "fucking pull yourself together" on what is supposed to be a serious discussion about mental health is not exactly slagging, it's just a straight truth. That's a truly staggering degree of ignorance on display right there.

[saint1977]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

In all fairness, calling GM clueless after posting "fucking pull yourself together" on what is supposed to be a serious discussion about mental health is not exactly slagging, it's just a straight truth. That's a truly staggering degree of ignorance on display right there.

Yep, and he ought to know better after his own difficulties in the last few years (and thoughts with him on his loss). Sometimes people forget the impact when they start adjusting themselves on others who are nearer to dealing with loss. Empathy costs nothing. 

There are some people that do get beyond help with their symptoms - as I can attest through this pandemic having devastatingly lost a very dear friend who was at many SFC games with me - leaving young 2 kids behind. I’ll always think of those games and times with fondness. We have to try though well before things reach that point and sometimes MH can be a short term symptom of life events - data suggesting 1 in 5 developing MH disorders from COVID - and short term support gets people back on an even keel. I get what Whelk is saying about pressure valves and mine are walking/hiking, sport, having a beer, reading, helping others. I know mindfulness is a bit old hat now but I do think it has a role to play.

It would be good if posters took bickering between themselves off this thread as the subject is too important - MH can effect anyone at any time not least after such a surreal 18 months we will hopefully emerge from. It doesn’t care if you are a Corbynite, Thatcherite, New Labour, Lib Dem, Brexiteer, Remainer etc. 

Edited 1 November, 2021 by saint1977

[whelk]

15 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

No Whelk, I don’t have a thick skin which is why I spent a great deal of time in therapy. But ask yourself this, do I come on here regularly and abuse people? Do the people who abuse me abuse others on a regular basis too? If I was being abused by regular moderate posters I would have a problem with that. Social media presents a huge problem with people’s mental health. Anonymity means that it is very easy for people to abuse others with no accountability so it is no wonder that this is a massive problem. I think we see here that the same exchanges probably wouldn’t happen if you were speaking to people in a pub. Many threads end up with abuse flying around and usually from the same people. It is not just football forums where this happens. I have seen the same things happen on different forums and you can guarantee that there will always be a small number of posters who will be looking to cause friction. Let’s call it for what it is, bullying. You say that I bring some of it on myself. I am not sure that anyone deserves to be bullied.
My wife went through a period of serious MH problems not so long ago. She worked for a couple of people we knew from our local and had no problems for 3 years but then she started to get bullied by her boss to the extent that she ended up being signed off and on meds. She is still on meds but fortunately has found employment with people who appreciate her and her work and her self esteem is gradually growing again. 
It should not be the case that people you disagree with you abuse. Abuse needs to be dealt with and people need to understand that there are ways of communicating with people that don’t involve ripping them to pieces and belittling them.

 

There is definitely some abuse that could be seen as bullying but I am in a glass house there and happy to hurl the insults. Although this is completely voluntary to post I would say fair game if you post on here.

By bringing it on yourself I meant by polarising argument and pigeon holing others as Tommy Robinson sympathisers. But have said before don’t understand why so many hone in on you.

As regards mental health I am naturally stoic and don’t know if parenting played a part but feel resilient with more a ‘fuck them’ attitude than ‘woe is me’ (not a helpful term I know)? Have many friends who have suffered and a couple that took their own lives, but also believe too much naval gazing isn’t good for you and get on and do some sport, volunteer  etc helps. Although undoubtedly chemical balance plays a part. I was bit messed up once although drugs played a part when paranoia really takes over and cannot trust your brain it can get scary.

Also believe too much time on your hands to compare lives doesn’t help. Instagram is fucking up teens massively with their highlight reel lives making so many feel inadequate.

[whelk]

5 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

I couldn't agree more with this. Many people with depression who are unable to deal with it, often react, by depressing everyone else they interact with. As they say, misery loves company. The support of family and friends always helps, in mild forms of mental health, as does, most importantly, self-help, often via cognitive therapy.  Forget therapists and drugs. They are not a long term solution, IMHO.

My personal experience of severe mental illness within a family, sometimes means that nothing can be done, even with your closest loved ones. You do your best, but if someone wants to top themselves, they will eventually succeed. Tragic, sad, frustrating and overwhelmingly a waste of a life, but shit happens. You do your best and that's about all you can do.

As far as whining snowflakes looking for help on a football message board, take a look at the WW2 generation and the Jewish state, for examples of dealing with real issues and fucking pull yourself together. The only reliable place to find sympathy, is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary. Certainly not here. If all else fails, it is always worth trying your local church, though. They happen to believe there is a God and that he loves us.  

“Get a grip you weak bastards no one is bombing you”. All any psychiatric nurse needs to sort out patients eh

[egg]

18 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

No Whelk, I don’t have a thick skin which is why I spent a great deal of time in therapy. But ask yourself this, do I come on here regularly and abuse people? Do the people who abuse me abuse others on a regular basis too? If I was being abused by regular moderate posters I would have a problem with that. Social media presents a huge problem with people’s mental health. Anonymity means that it is very easy for people to abuse others with no accountability so it is no wonder that this is a massive problem. I think we see here that the same exchanges probably wouldn’t happen if you were speaking to people in a pub. Many threads end up with abuse flying around and usually from the same people. It is not just football forums where this happens. I have seen the same things happen on different forums and you can guarantee that there will always be a small number of posters who will be looking to cause friction. Let’s call it for what it is, bullying. You say that I bring some of it on myself. I am not sure that anyone deserves to be bullied.
My wife went through a period of serious MH problems not so long ago. She worked for a couple of people we knew from our local and had no problems for 3 years but then she started to get bullied by her boss to the extent that she ended up being signed off and on meds. She is still on meds but fortunately has found employment with people who appreciate her and her work and her self esteem is gradually growing again. 
It should not be the case that people you disagree with you abuse. Abuse needs to be dealt with and people need to understand that there are ways of communicating with people that don’t involve ripping them to pieces and belittling them.

 

This is disappointing SOG. You wanted a serious discussion on what is a sensitive issue. Lighthouse set the right scene with a very warmly worded post.

It was going well, so your starting with the criticism was unhelpful and unnecessary. That's the kind of behaviour that makes me agree with Whelk when he says that some of your criticism is self inflicted. 

Disappointing. 

[Turkish]

At the end of the day we are all just a collection of flaws sown together with good intentions

[whelk]

Have you heard about the scorpion and the frog? Another thread dies

Edited 2 November, 2021 by whelk

[Lighthouse]

Our hopes were never high. Still I’ve sprayed some Domestos around the rim of this thread and we’ll give it one more try.

If anyone wants to carry on with the previous discussion it’s been moved to the muppet show ‘mental health’ thread.

 

[whelk]

Think bit indiscriminate with some of the post moving Lighthouse.  One of mine had no insults whatsoever. Is tiresome how descended so quickly though and there is some very ocd/autistic behaviour from some.

Edited 2 November, 2021 by whelk

[egg]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Think bit. indiscriminate with some of the post moving Lighthouse.  One of mine had no insults whatsoever. Is tiresome how descended so quickly though and there is some very ocd/autistic behaviour from some.

Yep. My post that got moved contained nothing unpleasant, and to be fair, SOG's reply was respectful and well reasoned. I didn't respond as the thread had gone off the edge by then. 

It's a shame how it descended. MH needs to be discussed, and mens in particular. Loads of men top themselves daily. Many other suffer, many in silence. It's a sad situation if we can't discuss that civilly and with respect. 

Edited 2 November, 2021 by egg

[Lighthouse]

Fair point, I’ve moved a couple of them back. Some posts were more in anticipation of someone coming back with needless, provocative retort than what was actually said but we’ll see how it goes.

[Fan The Flames]

The inventor of CBT, Aaron Beck, died today. He worked all his career to tackle anxiety and depression and I'm sure many on here have benefited from his work.

I've been fortunate to have good mental health all my life, barring the numerous stressfull work periods, but I have a sister who has been sectioned a number of times. Her battle with mental health issues has put great stress on the family at times. So I sympathise with any family going through it, as there is no quick fix.

The best advise is the same as for most things, be kind to each other, which is sometimes difficult in the middle of the storm.

[sadoldgit]

Sad new. CBT has certainly been useful for me and others I know.

With anyone is suffering MH problems please go and see your doctor. Don’t hold back either. We tend to hold back and play the seriousness down, just be open and honest about what you are feeling.

Open up to your partner, mate, family member. It helps to talk about it and when you start, if you find the right listener, it can be a huge help.

if you are have issues at work speak to your line manager, HR or someone in a position to help you. Don’t suffer in silence.

None  of us like to admit we are struggling. It is seen as a sign of weakness we think. The worse thing you can do is bottle it up and hope it will go away. It won’t. It will probably just get worse the longer you let it fester.

We hear a lot about being kind. Start by being kind to yourself!

[Turkish]

I dont mean this to come across the wrong way and "pull yourself together" type post as it isn't meant like this.

What is the difference between just having a bit of a tough time of it and feeling a bit stressed/down because of it and this impact on your mental health? To me it seems a there is a big grey area with people not being able to cope with tough times we all go through putting it down to anxiety, stress, depression etc when in reality their just having to deal with the general day to day stresses of life. Like most people i've been through some really tough times, i also know people with depression, some who have topped themselves. But there comes a point where you have to accept reality that life isn't always 75 degrees with the sun shining, sometimes it does get tough and you have a bad time, but either you deal with it or it beats you.

Edited 3 November, 2021 by Turkish

[Guided Missile]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

I dont mean this to come across the wrong way and "pull yourself together" type post as it isn't meant like this.

What is the difference between just having a bit of a tough time of it and feeling a bit stressed/down because of it and this impact on your mental health? To me it seems a there is a big grey area with people not being able to cope with tough times we all go through putting it down to anxiety, stress, depression etc when in reality their just having to deal with the general day to day stresses of life. Like most people i've been through some really tough times, i also know people with depression, some who have topped themselves. But there comes a point where you have to accept reality that life isn't always 75 degrees with the sun shining, sometimes it does get tough and you have a bad time, but either you deal with it or it beats you.

In other words, man up and pull yourself together.

Still, there's always the option of whining like a puppy.

[Lighthouse]

I’d say recognising the situation for what it is is half the battle. As Turkish says, some scenarios are just every day life being the way it is and you need to be resilient. Others are nasty and unusual situations which are going to make you miserable, regardless of mental health. Then there’s the area where I think the MH problems lie, when what you’re feeling doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation you’re in.

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

In other words, man up and pull yourself together.

Still, there's always the option of whining like a puppy.

I dont mean that. I've known people who've topped themselves due to depression so do understand how some people are massively impacted by mental health issues. However everyone goes through tough times, some people seem to be able to deal with it other seems to go to pieces and blame anxiety, stress, etc when in reality they're just having a period in their life that's not easy. For me there seems to be a massive grey areas between those who actually do have a mental health issue and others who want life to be perfect and when it isn't start to go into a decline. 

[badgerx16]

55 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

In other words, man up and pull yourself together.

Still, there's always the option of whining like a puppy.

You're all heart.

[Guided Missile]

38 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont mean that. I've known people who've topped themselves due to depression so do understand how some people are massively impacted by mental health issues. 

If we are talking about the ultimate outcome of a mental illness, suicide, I have a pretty old fashioned opinion on that. For me, life is a gift that is borrowed from the entity that gave it to us, from your biological parents and ultimately your God. Destroying this gift, which we hold for only a short time on this earth, is the ultimate betrayal and a waste of our greatest possession. We are all meant to use that gift, IMHO, for the benefit of others. Our life is not ours to take. It is like setting fire to a car your Dad bought you.

I also have an old fashioned view of the male of our species. He is meant to support his family in terms of health and welfare. Their health includes the mental aspects that are the subject of this thread, but the obvious additional needs related to food and shelter. Having support of your wife and children is very important, but unfortunately not a pre-requisite of carrying out the male role. In other words, I wouldn't fucking rely on it. I have found that the support of other men with the same view of our role has often been equally valuable to me, but never from an internet forum. All I get from this forum is abuse and anonymous phone calls from weird posters, calling my wife a slag.

In the long run, for men, living involves accepting a personal responsibility of bearing the burden of overcoming the challenges associated with it , often having greater financial and social demands than women or children (Men are 10 times more likely to die in conflict). There is no avoiding this burden, unless you unload it on to some other poor sap. So the sooner the personal responsibility of dealing with "mental illness" (unless it's due to a brain injury or chemical imbalance) is accepted, the sooner disorders like anxiety and depression can be dealt with.

Edited 3 November, 2021 by Guided Missile

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

I’d say recognising the situation for what it is is half the battle. As Turkish says, some scenarios are just every day life being the way it is and you need to be resilient. Others are nasty and unusual situations which are going to make you miserable, regardless of mental health. Then there’s the area where I think the MH problems lie, when what you’re feeling doesn’t reflect the reality of the situation you’re in.

Often people have been worn down by long periods of stress, anxiety or whatever and it doesn’t take much to push them over the edge. We are not just talking about suicide here. There are many other debilitating effects of MH problems. Insomnia, brain fog and memory loss, mood swings - all kinds of things that make daily life difficult. We are not really talking about minor blips here, although they need dealing with, but deep rooted MH issues which go well beyond just “manning up”. It is soul destroying when you feel like you are in a deep hole and can’t see a way out. It is easy for someone who is relatively sorted to say just do this or that, but believe me, when your system is beaten down to a very low level, just getting out of bed in the morning can become a major effort. 

[saint1977]

1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

In other words, man up and pull yourself together.

Still, there's always the option of whining like a puppy.

That’s not what Turkish meant and you know it. What he’s talking about in a more sensible way is resilience and how some people find it easier to build than others. I’m fortunate that it’s one of my strong suits because life does throw some great times and awful times but not everyone is wired the same.

However, with some targeted support and life adjustments, a lot of people with MH spells/events can build some. What you are loosely referring to is the person concerned taking some responsibility for trying to get/feel better and yes, the person does need to do that, but sometimes for bio-medical or social reasons this proves too difficult. 

If you have experience of managing people in particular, it’s about working out what gets the best out of them drawing on empathy, especially if they aren’t your hires but you know they have the skills to do the work. Sometimes you exhaust the options and have to make difficult decisions if the person doesn’t engage fully in being helped. Obviously with friends and family it’s slightly different to an employment situation but personal activation is still important. 

Edited 3 November, 2021 by saint1977

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

I dont mean that. I've known people who've topped themselves due to depression so do understand how some people are massively impacted by mental health issues. However everyone goes through tough times, some people seem to be able to deal with it other seems to go to pieces and blame anxiety, stress, etc when in reality they're just having a period in their life that's not easy. For me there seems to be a massive grey areas between those who actually do have a mental health issue and others who want life to be perfect and when it isn't start to go into a decline. 

You can easily see the resilience difference in staff in their day to day absences. Some feel they cannot come in/log on as don’t feel 100% but others will dutifully come in as have a stronger sense of not letting the team down  and generally more stoic approach. I do agree and that is the issue as we do see it as being weaker and therefore fewer want to put their hand up to say they are suffering. But many may be having the equivalent issues but are better at putting to one side and getting on with it.

Edited 3 November, 2021 by whelk

[Fan The Flames]

56 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont mean that. I've known people who've topped themselves due to depression so do understand how some people are massively impacted by mental health issues. However everyone goes through tough times, some people seem to be able to deal with it other seems to go to pieces and blame anxiety, stress, etc when in reality they're just having a period in their life that's not easy. For me there seems to be a massive grey areas between those who actually do have a mental health issue and others who want life to be perfect and when it isn't start to go into a decline. 

There's a difference between not being able to deal with tough times and having a mental illness. But some people's brains are wired so that a tough time can have more of an impact on them, than it would others and actually cause mental illness.

My wife is a worrier and I care a lot less, she says she would love to care less but can't. Although she has got a lot better over the years and I think I keep her on the straight and narrow. Our brains are all wired differently, I'm good at coping with most things and remain positive. But I'm shit at the family finances, I would ignore bills, blow money on rubbish, bury my head. Whereas my wife is good and keeps me on the staight and narrow. 

I think my point here is that mental illness is whole different ball game to resilience to life. But even with resilience, we are all different, just like its no use saying to my wife 'don't worry' she just can't help the way her brain is wired, others can't help how the way they are wired to respond to a tough times.

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

If we are talking about the ultimate outcome of a mental illness, suicide, I have a pretty old fashioned opinion on that. For me, life is a gift that is borrowed from the entity that gave it to us, from your biological parents and ultimately your God. Destroying this gift, which we hold for only a short time on this earth, is the ultimate betrayal and a waste of our greatest possession. We are all meant to use that gift, IMHO, for the benefit of others. Our life is not ours to take. It is like setting fire to a car your Dad bought you.

I also have an old fashioned view of the male of our species. He is meant to support his family in terms of health and welfare. Their health includes the mental aspects that are the subject of this thread, but the obvious additional needs related to food and shelter. Having support of your wife and children is very important, but unfortunately not a pre-requisite of carrying out the male role. In other words, I wouldn't fucking rely on it. I have found that the support of other men with the same view of our role has often been equally valuable to me, but never from an internet forum. All I get from this forum is abuse and anonymous phone calls from weird posters, calling my wife a slag.

In the long run, for men, living involves accepting a personal responsibility of bearing the burden of overcoming the challenges associated with it , often having greater financial and social demands than women or children (Men are 10 times more likely to die in conflict). There is no avoiding this burden, unless you unload it on to some other poor sap. So the sooner the personal responsibility of dealing with "mental illness" (unless it's due to a brain injury or chemical imbalance) is accepted, the sooner disorders like anxiety and depression can be dealt with.

Your quote saying that it is like setting fire to the car your Dad bought you shows how little you understand of this awful condition. If you were remotely capable and rational of course you wouldn’t do that, but we aren’t talking about people who are in a capable, rational place. Just before I took an overdose I “rationalised” that my kids were very young and therefore would not miss me. I could find no reason to keep in living. There are always reasons not to do it of course, but when you are in that place it is very hard to see them or to think that you could get back there eventually. It really annoys me when people talk about it as if you feel like you have a rational choice. It really is not a selfish act either. I felt like things would be better all round if I was not here. I couldn’t cope and didn’t want to be a burden. This was 21 years ago and I still look back and find it hard to understand who that person was. I feel bad that I allowed things to go that far, but in truth I had no control at the time and just felt like I was being carried along by feelings beyond my ability to deal with them.Perhaps you should spend time with survivors of suicide attempts. You might get over this archaic view that have.

[whelk]

I would put money on GM being Catholic 

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Your quote saying that it is like setting fire to the car your Dad bought you shows how little you understand of this awful condition. If you were remotely capable and rational of course you wouldn’t do that, but we aren’t talking about people who are in a capable, rational place. Just before I took an overdose I “rationalised” that my kids were very young and therefore would not miss me. I could find no reason to keep in living. There are always reasons not to do it of course, but when you are in that place it is very hard to see them or to think that you could get back there eventually. It really annoys me when people talk about it as if you feel like you have a rational choice. It really is not a selfish act either. I felt like things would be better all round if I was not here. I couldn’t cope and didn’t want to be a burden. This was 21 years ago and I still look back and find it hard to understand who that person was. I feel bad that I allowed things to go that far, but in truth I had no control at the time and just felt like I was being carried along by feelings beyond my ability to deal with them.Perhaps you should spend time with survivors of suicide attempts. You might get over this archaic view that have.

Yeah and it is hard to have true empathy unless suffered yourself. I haven’t as such so my advice is very limited in effectiveness but stats like fives times more likely to depressed now than in the fifties, even allowing for hidden cases, indicates that society influences and people being brought up to think they are the centre of the universe may well play a part.

Edited 3 November, 2021 by whelk

[aintforever]

16 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

I think my point here is that mental illness is whole different ball game to resilience to life.

This. The brain is a weird thing, depression is not just someone not being man enough to deal with shit.

Went for drinks with an old mate a while ago, he’s the sort of guy who has everything - self made millionaire before he was 40, trophy wife, load of sports cars, great family. Turns out he was suffering from depression and is on anti-depressants. He admitted it was weird, didn’t really understand why as he hasn’t had to put up with any real hardship, it just got to the stage where every mole hill looked like a mountain. Similar things have happened to other people I know and none of them have had to put up with anything particularly out of the ordinary - when you suffer from this illness it can just make anything seem like problem I guess. It could happen to any of us.

[Guided Missile]

7 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

This was 21 years ago and I still look back and find it hard to understand who that person was. I feel bad that I allowed things to go that far, but in truth I had no control at the time and just felt like I was being carried along by feelings beyond my ability to deal with them.Perhaps you should spend time with survivors of suicide attempts. You might get over this archaic view that have.

Why would I want to waste any time with survivors of suicide or rationalising the treatment of mental health with someone like you, who has no control and no ability to deal with their issues? There'll be fuck all I can do to help. Either get professional help or support from family and friends. I have enough of my own problems to cope with. Problems I don't whine about in public, on a internet forum.

It's like hitting yourself on the head with a mallet and asking someone who doesn't know you, to help you to stop. Pointless and annoying. If you've got no friends beyond this forum, join a bridge club. If life is not worth living, go and volunteer at a homeless shelter. Who knows, it may help you feel better about yourself and your life. Just don't give me the "you don't know what it's like". You don't know me or my life. Either do something constructive or stay where you are. Just stop complaining, FFS...

[whelk]

3 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

Why would I want to waste any time with survivors of suicide or rationalising the treatment of mental health with someone like you, who has no control and no ability to deal with their issues? There'll be fuck all I can do to help. Either get professional help or support from family and friends. I have enough of my own problems to cope with. Problems I don't whine about in public, on a internet forum.

It's like hitting yourself on the head with a mallet and asking someone who doesn't know you, to help you to stop. Pointless and annoying. If you've got no friends beyond this forum, join a bridge club. If life is not worth living, go and volunteer at a homeless shelter. Who knows, it may help you feel better about yourself and your life. Just don't give me the "you don't know what it's like". You don't know me or my life. Either do something constructive or stay where you are. Just stop complaining, FFS...

Did you not get much love as a child?

[Turkish]

 

 

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

There's a difference between not being able to deal with tough times and having a mental illness. But some people's brains are wired so that a tough time can have more of an impact on them, than it would others and actually cause mental illness.

My wife is a worrier and I care a lot less, she says she would love to care less but can't. Although she has got a lot better over the years and I think I keep her on the straight and narrow. Our brains are all wired differently, I'm good at coping with most things and remain positive. But I'm shit at the family finances, I would ignore bills, blow money on rubbish, bury my head. Whereas my wife is good and keeps me on the staight and narrow. 

I think my point here is that mental illness is whole different ball game to resilience to life. But even with resilience, we are all different, just like its no use saying to my wife 'don't worry' she just can't help the way her brain is wired, others can't help how the way they are wired to respond to a tough times.

Yeah i get that, of course there are people who have a chemical imbalance which means they do have an illness. But there are also a large amount of people who claim they have anxiety, stress, depression and wear it like a badge of honour, like it justifies their behaviour and absolves them from any personal responsibility. 

[egg]

52 minutes ago, Turkish said:

 

 

Yeah i get that, of course there are people who have a chemical imbalance which means they do have an illness. But there are also a large amount of people who claim they have anxiety, stress, depression and wear it like a badge of honour, like it justifies their behaviour and absolves them from any personal responsibility. 

Going back to your earlier post Del, I think the short answer is that when people are genuinely ill it'll usually either be obvious to them, or others that there's an issue. Where it becomes a problem is where someone cannot address an issue that is not noticed by others.

People use the word depression wrongly. "Ralph has picked Redmond again that's so depressing", or "it's raining again, how depressing". The word gets misused to the point that many people don't understand what depression is.

Anxiety is also misunderstood and the term misused. I grew up with a mum who was agoraphobic - acute anxiety of open spaces, to the point that she couldn't go outside the house. I remember going outside with her when she was working through it, the look of sheer panic, and the trembling, I'll never forget. One of kids MH issues include acute anxiety - she literally vomits in some situations, hyperventilates, gets (physically) hot at the thought of doing things, etc. That's actual anxiety, not just a bit of natural, or even irrational, fear. 

@sadoldgithas a good grip on this stuff and his posts on this thread make good reading. People with depression and/or anxiety often can't face life or the world; cannot bring themselves to get out of bed, or wash, or shower, or eat, or do anything. There could be issues of fear around it, or inadequacy, or other psychological issues, as well as a possible imbalance. It's a complex subject and I'm just grateful I'm not my mum or kid because it'd be hell.

I get your point though that some people like a label. Having lived around MH all my life, and caring for an adult child who suffers, I can't fathom why anyone would seek out illnesses which can reduce quality of life as much as any physical disability.

I'll finish with  3 points on this  as this subject is close to home on many levels, and not an easy one for me.

1. People can be cunts to each other on here. I'm guilty of it. However, we don't know what's going on for other people and what may be intended as a bit of banter can hurt, in ways that we cannot imagine.

2. If anyone reaches out for help, offer the hand of friendship. If they say they're fine but you're not sure, ask again - the second answer can be the honest one.

3. Most importantly, do what you can - I had the GF of a friend phone me a few years ago asking me to call my friend as I was the only person he'd listen to. She was worried he'd do something silly. I did nothing and he hung himself the next day. Whether he'd still be alive if I called I don't know and never will.

Edited 3 November, 2021 by egg

[badgerx16]

3 hours ago, whelk said:

Did you not get much love as a child?

GM is evidence that not all dinosaurs died when the asteroid hit.

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, egg said:

3. Most importantly, do what you can - I had the GF of a friend phone me a few years ago asking me to call my friend as I was the only person he'd listen to. She was worried he'd do something silly. I did nothing and he hung himself the next day. Whether he'd still be alive if I called I don't know and never will.

That’s awful, sorry to hear about it. As horrible as it is to say it, suicide does end their problems, it’s the people left behind who are then ripped apart. Loved ones will be left wondering what they could have done and if they should’ve noticed sooner, which leads to people irrationally blaming themselves. I hope it doesn’t eat at you too badly, I know something like that would mess me up.

 

It’s hard to really understand what frame of mind people are in when they do something like that. In the aviation industry we had Malaysian 370 and the German wings crash in the alps within about a year of each other. In both instances we were left wondering; why do that and take hundreds of innocent people with you? Why not pull over on the drive to the airport and jump off a bridge?

 

Its impossible to know whether what you might have said would have made any kind of difference when you can only guess what demons that person is dealing with.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

That’s awful, sorry to hear about it. As horrible as it is to say it, suicide does end their problems, it’s the people left behind who are then ripped apart. Loved ones will be left wondering what they could have done and if they should’ve noticed sooner, which leads to people irrationally blaming themselves. I hope it doesn’t eat at you too badly, I know something like that would mess me up.

 

It’s hard to really understand what frame of mind people are in when they do something like that. In the aviation industry we had Malaysian 370 and the German wings crash in the alps within about a year of each other. In both instances we were left wondering; why do that and take hundreds of innocent people with you? Why not pull over on the drive to the airport and jump off a bridge?

 

Its impossible to know whether what you might have said would have made any kind of difference when you can only guess what demons that person is dealing with.

Cheers Lighthouse. It sent me into a spiral I couldn't get out of for about 18 months. It took a fair bit of help to get out of it, and ultimately I had to accept that worrying about the past won't change it, and only messes up the present and the future. He had many demons sadly and certain events in his life made it unmanageable to the point he seemingly only saw one way out. I know that I did not cause his problems though, and that I wasn't the man to solve them. Still a very sad situation and I will never dismiss a cry for help again. 

On the taking other people with you point, I think anyone with true intent of ending their life just focuses on the exit that they want and cannot look beyond that. Getting caught in the cross hairs of someone else's suicide is just horrid. 

[Sheaf Saint]

It's great that there is much less stigma about mental health these days and people can feel comfortable talking about their experiences rather than feeling the need to keep it to themselves lest they be told by ignorant, obnoxious twats that they are just being stupid and should get a grip of themselves. There's no shame (or at least there shouldn't be) in admitting your mental health is not good, just as you wouldn't feel ashamed of talking about any physical ailments you may have. Sadly, as a certain poster has proven so spectacularly, there is still an awful lot of ignorance about it in society.

Just like physical health and wellbeing, we all have varying degrees of mental health. You don't need to have a chemical imbalance or a diagnosed condition to have poor mental health. If someone's MH is already poor, their resilience to deal with adversity will be severely impaired, and things that they would normally be able to cope with comfortably can become overwhelming.

The human brain is a very curious thing, and people can get stuck in repetitive thought patterns without realising it. This is how addiction, which is itself a form of mental illness, grips hold of some people. There have been some fascinating advances in neuroscience in recent years, and our collective understanding of how these thought patterns take hold and how we can use mindfulness techniques to prevent them from spiralling out of control is improving by the day. But it's important that we keep talking and being open, and keep breaking down the barriers that have prevented people from sharing their issues for so long. 

 

[egg]

26 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

It's great that there is much less stigma about mental health these days and people can feel comfortable talking about their experiences rather than feeling the need to keep it to themselves lest they be told by ignorant, obnoxious twats that they are just being stupid and should get a grip of themselves. There's no shame (or at least there shouldn't be) in admitting your mental health is not good, just as you wouldn't feel ashamed of talking about any physical ailments you may have. Sadly, as a certain poster has proven so spectacularly, there is still an awful lot of ignorance about it in society.

Just like physical health and wellbeing, we all have varying degrees of mental health. You don't need to have a chemical imbalance or a diagnosed condition to have poor mental health. If someone's MH is already poor, their resilience to deal with adversity will be severely impaired, and things that they would normally be able to cope with comfortably can become overwhelming.

The human brain is a very curious thing, and people can get stuck in repetitive thought patterns without realising it. This is how addiction, which is itself a form of mental illness, grips hold of some people. There have been some fascinating advances in neuroscience in recent years, and our collective understanding of how these thought patterns take hold and how we can use mindfulness techniques to prevent them from spiralling out of control is improving by the day. But it's important that we keep talking and being open, and keep breaking down the barriers that have prevented people from sharing their issues for so long. 

 

 

Good post, thank you. In a strange way, I don't mind reading ill informed or even ignorant posts as it highlights that we need to have the discussion, and allow people to share their experiences. If doing that just seeps a little into others, it could just save someone's life one day. 

Edited 3 November, 2021 by egg

[sadoldgit]

On 03/11/2021 at 21:02, egg said:

Good post, thank you. In a strange way, I don't mind reading ill informed or even ignorant posts as it highlights that we need to have the discussion, and allow people to share their experiences. If doing that just seeps a little into others, it could just save someone's life one day. 

Even if you thought stuff like that, what would possess you to post callous stuff like that on a thread like this? It demonstrates zero, empathy, sympathy, compassion and understanding and is if no help at all to anyone struggling with MH issues. He is clearly not a candidate for the Samaritans!

I was sorry to read about your mate Egg. Such a hard thing to live with. Not that it will help but over 6000 people took their own lives in the UK last year. It is the biggest killer of men under the age of 45 and the most at risk group are males between 45 and 49. 

The rate is higher amongst men than women and that is possibly because women are better at building support groups and talking about their problems. As demonstrated here, you never know what you will get when you open up to a group of men. Most will be supportive but there will always be some who, for whatever reasons, won’t be.

As has been said, we are all wired differently and can cope with some things better than others. We all have trigger points and will all find certain things harder than others to cope with. It was a constant thing in The Priory that people would say they were embarrassed for being weak. The councillors always picked this up and said no, you are in here because you were too strong and pushed yourself beyond the point where you needed just to step back and take time out. Yes, there are some things that you can just “man up” and deal with and you can get through it, but prolonged MH stresses need to be dealt with properly and that takes time. There is no band aid for anxiety, depression and stress. The best thing we can do is to try and deal with the damage of the long term effects of these conditions by catching them early, before people become suicidal - that is why talking about these issues is so important. 

We are told nowadays that we need to “be kind”. A better and more effective message is probably “just don’t be an a-hole”.