Are we a better team when JWP isn’t in it?

[egg]

1 minute ago, Minsk said:

Hilarious. The way you have worded the above is you alluding to the fact that he can't be that good because he isn't regularly picked in every England squad.

I don't think it just my Saints bias that believes he offers he far more than Henderson (for example). I also believe he is a better all round player than Kalvin Phillips (that one has been debated to death). I know many fans of other teams who agree with me. You don't. No worries. You're entitled to that opinion. But to try and bash him because Southgate doesn't pick him for every squad is ridiculous. That said, and to drop to your petty level, how many full caps does Diallo have for France? Maybe there's a reason for that number........

 

Blimey, you're on one tonight aren't you. 

You like JWP, we get that.

"I believe, I believe"...well guess what sweetheart, others can disagree. 

[maysie]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Passive? 

Haha. It's veiled under the general pomposity.

[Minsk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Passive? 

Passive is Massive.

That saying will clearly be lost on you, but is one I often used when in the RN. (I was a Passive SONAR operator).

Do you think I'm being aggressive? I'm sorry petal. I will try to be gentle with you in the future. I mean, I very rarely use offensive words or name call, unlike many on here. As I said earlier, I do try to back up my thoughts and opinions with valid reasoning. Maybe it just bugs me when others disagree with those opinions but are unable to quantify their reasoning. Maybe I should work on that. Sorry again.

[egg]

Just now, Minsk said:

Passive is Massive.

That saying will clearly be lost on you, but is one I often used when in the RN. (I was a Passive SONAR operator).

Do you think I'm being aggressive? I'm sorry petal. I will try to be gentle with you in the future. I mean, I very rarely use offensive words or name call, unlike many on here. As I said earlier, I do try to back up my thoughts and opinions with valid reasoning. Maybe it just bugs me when others disagree with those opinions but are unable to quantify their reasoning. Maybe I should work on that. Sorry again.

You're being a bit of a cock mate. I've explained myself quite clearly on JWP. You're ego is clearly dented that someone disagrees with your view thy JWP is brilliant. If it's cathartic for you to have a little rant on here, you crack on, it seems like you need all the help you can get. 

[Minsk]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

After the first few lines of vitriol I couldn't be arsed to read on...all that from someone asking if someone else is insecure. Bless. 

 

As I thought, unable to quantify reasoning so hide behind excuses. Never mind. Where was the 'vitriol'? Maybe you know a different definition of the word to me.  Where did I ask if you are 'insecure'? I asked if someone explaining their reasons and asking to do likewise makes you feel insecure. Not the same thing. Or is that just another way to try to deflect your lack of any reasoning away from having an actual debate. Maybe it was a Feudian slip?

Edited 1 November, 2021 by Minsk
added a sentence for better understanding

[egg]

Just now, Minsk said:

As I thought, unable to quantify reasoning so hide behind excuses. Never mind. Where did I ask if you are 'insecure'? Or is that just another way to try to deflect your lack of any reasoning away from having an actual debate. Maybe it was a Feudian slip?

Night Minsk, sleep it off and we'll chat tomorrow x 

[Minsk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

You're being a bit of a cock mate. I've explained myself quite clearly on JWP. You're ego is clearly dented that someone disagrees with your view thy JWP is brilliant. If it's cathartic for you to have a little rant on here, you crack on, it seems like you need all the help you can get. 

Again, sorry if asking for some reasoning on what may have formed your opinion. As I said, you're as entitled to one as the next person. No bother with that, as I often have to point out when we disagree on things. Just trying to understand where people come from.

Have you ever heard of debating? Asking questions and giving answers. Giving reasons for opinions? It seems every time anyone tries to engage with such things you revert to the usual 'We're all entitled to an opinion. Get over it that someone has a different one to you'. I have tried to explain why mine is different. You have chosen to ignore all those points and arguments. Yet I'm the one being a cock? Grow up fella.

[Verbal Kint]

27 minutes ago, Minsk said:

I believe we are better with JWP because: he a better tackler; has a better range of passing; is more experienced; has created, and is far better at creating, goals for other players (from open play, not just set pieces); is capable of scoring a range of goals himself (again, from open play and not just set pieces). I could probably go on but that's enough for now. You think we are a better team the other way around because it seems to you that Diallo passes the ball forwards more quickly than JWP. (Regardless of the fact that not once has that ever led to a Saints goal). Any other reason? Goals and assists don't count? Defensive duties don't count?

You're entitled to your opinion but the data doesn't support a lot of this. He isn't a better tackler. He isn't "far" better at creating chances from open play. I think he scored just 1 goal from open play last year (are we really calling that a goal threat?). Diallo's defensive stats are better

[egg]

Just now, Minsk said:

Again, sorry if asking for some reasoning on what may have formed your opinion. As I said, you're as entitled to one as the next person. No bother with that, as I often have to point out when we disagree on things. Just trying to understand where people come from.

Have you ever heard of debating? Asking questions and giving answers. Giving reasons for opinions? It seems every time anyone tries to engage with such things you revert to the usual 'We're all entitled to an opinion. Get over it that someone has a different one to you'. I have tried to explain why mine is different. You have chosen to ignore all those points and arguments. Yet I'm the one being a cock? Grow up fella.

I've made it clear over the course of this evening what I feel about the subject. Your perception of debate isn't the same as mine or that of a reasonable person. I disagree with you, and have no interest in engaging with you. 

[Minsk]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Blimey, you're on one tonight aren't you. 

You like JWP, we get that.

"I believe, I believe"...well guess what sweetheart, others can disagree. 

The question posed for this thread is 'Are we a better team when JWP isn't in it'. I have answered that question, and given my reasons. You have answered differently, without giving any reason other than you think one player who replaced him for a few matches seems (to you) to pass the ball forwards quicker. None of that has anything to do with how I rate JWP or Diallo. I am basing my 'belief' on fact. You are unwilling to engage in that. Says far more about you and your 'beliefs' than me and mine. 

[egg]

Just now, Minsk said:

The question posed for this thread is 'Are we a better team when JWP isn't in it'. I have answered that question, and given my reasons. You have answered differently, without giving any reason other than you think one player who replaced him for a few matches seems (to you) to pass the ball forwards quicker. None of that has anything to do with how I rate JWP or Diallo. I am basing my 'belief' on fact. You are unwilling to engage in that. Says far more about you and your 'beliefs' than me and mine. 

Read what I've posted. Then read your first post responding to me. I've formed the opinion that we're a better team with Diallo. I've also formed the opinion that you're an idiot. Discussion over. 

[Minsk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

I've made it clear over the course of this evening what I feel about the subject. Your perception of debate isn't the same as mine or that of a reasonable person. I disagree with you, and have no interest in engaging with you. 

Oh, of course, it's a far better debating technique to state that you can't be arsed to read or answer any questions posed and to then just refuse to talk to the person. How mature of you.

[Minsk]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Read what I've posted. Then read your first post responding to me. I've formed the opinion that we're a better team with Diallo. I've also formed the opinion that you're an idiot. Discussion over. 

And out comes the petty name calling again. 🤣 Grow up child.

[Minsk]

8 minutes ago, Verbal Kint said:

You're entitled to your opinion but the data doesn't support a lot of this. He isn't a better tackler. He isn't "far" better at creating chances from open play. I think he scored just 1 goal from open play last year (are we really calling that a goal threat?). Diallo's defensive stats are better

It looks to me as if the data does back up my opinion. You are, of course, entitled to interpret it differently. No worries. 

It is certainly is an absolute fact that JWP has assisted and scored far more goals, from open play, than Diallo has in his career. Heck, JWP has sored and assisted more for England than Diallo has for Saints. Combine that with his set pieces and yes, he is more of an attacking threat than Diallo. Please explain why this isn't so.

[skintsaint]

4 hours ago, Minsk said:

It is certainly is an absolute fact that JWP has assisted and scored far more goals, from open play, than Diallo has in his career. Heck, JWP has sored and assisted more for England than Diallo has for Saints. Combine that with his set pieces and yes, he is more of an attacking threat than Diallo. Please explain why this isn't so.

Well he has probably played about 200 games more 😅

[Verbal Kint]

4 hours ago, Minsk said:

It looks to me as if the data does back up my opinion. You are, of course, entitled to interpret it differently. No worries. 

It is certainly is an absolute fact that JWP has assisted and scored far more goals, from open play, than Diallo has in his career. Heck, JWP has sored and assisted more for England than Diallo has for Saints. Combine that with his set pieces and yes, he is more of an attacking threat than Diallo. Please explain why this isn't so.

No argument on his set pieces and I don't see anyone else disputing that. But you previously said he was more of a goal threat from open play as well

From open play last season per game:

Shot creating actions: JWP 1.03, Diallo 1.33

Goal creating actions: JWP 0.11, Diallo 0.09

"Far better"

[austsaint]

5 hours ago, Minsk said:

Again, sorry if asking for some reasoning on what may have formed your opinion. As I said, you're as entitled to one as the next person. No bother with that, as I often have to point out when we disagree on things. Just trying to understand where people come from.

Have you ever heard of debating? Asking questions and giving answers. Giving reasons for opinions? It seems every time anyone tries to engage with such things you revert to the usual 'We're all entitled to an opinion. Get over it that someone has a different one to you'. I have tried to explain why mine is different. You have chosen to ignore all those points and arguments. Yet I'm the one being a cock? Grow up fella.

Don't tell me....you were a champion debater at School, before you joined the Navy.

[JibMcdo]

JWP plays Ralph’s 6 role very nicely. It’s his and Romeu’s job to recycle possession between the two centre halves and wait for an opening to hit the two 10s or play a ball to a full back in space. They often are seen both dropping in between the two centre backs at the same time. Sometimes it means playing short passes where it looks like they’re not going anywhere and fans will think they’re slowing the game down but it’s all part of the team’s tactics and both CMs do the job well.

Diallo is a good addition to the squad, but he’s not as accomplished on the ball as JWP and I think the fact he can dribble away from players in transition with a bit more pace than Romeu or Ward-Prowse often catches a supporter’s eye. He won’t be replacing the 2 in the middle unless an injury occurs.

[Chris cooper]

1 hour ago, austsaint said:

Don't tell me....you were a champion debater at School, before you joined the Navy.

Definitely army or navy !! 😂

[SFC Forever]

2 hours ago, Verbal Kint said:

No argument on his set pieces and I don't see anyone else disputing that. But you previously said he was more of a goal threat from open play as well

From open play last season per game:

Shot creating actions: JWP 1.03, Diallo 1.33

Goal creating actions: JWP 0.11, Diallo 0.09

"Far better"

I wonder why when you choose to use evidence from the stats that you clearly seem to have missed out goals scored by both of them.

Perhapsit is just me but that does seem to be missed becauseit does not work for your argument.

[SFC Forever]

Verbal in case you or others are interested, I did not bother checking so I ask just for the interest. 

Why not show all.

[The Left Back]

Blimey it's all kicked off on here since I last checked.  

The question posed in the thread title is a simple one.  I could choose to answer it with an opinion based on my experience of watching.  If I was doing that I would say yes we definitely a better team with JWP playing.  I didn't always think that but since Ralph took over he has developed considerably from being a technically strong but physically weak squad filler to one of the first names on the team sheet.  He is our captain, our engine, an all-rounder with excellent dead-ball skills.  He was outstanding over the last two years, so anyone judging him purely on 8 games this year is being myopic in my view.

Diallo has been brought into this debate I guess because he came in when JWP got suspended.  For me he has definitely got something about him and I hope he stays and develops.  I've seen hime play I guess about 20 times and he's been a bit of a mixed bag.  When we are playing well he is fluid and dynamic.   When we are not playing so well I wonder if he isn't a bit lightweight and not yet able to impose himself on a game the way JWP and Oriol can?  I'd need to look again but am struggling to think of a stand-out performance when others were below par.  

Not sure if this has been said elsewhere but it's not a binary choice in my view between JWP and Diallo.  I could easily imagine them playing in the same team, either when Romeu is out or as part of a three.  I think there will be some games where a 4-3-3 would be a good option and I'd definitely have all three in, with Oriol central and slightly deeper, JWP right and Diallo left.

As for the stats, if any more proof is needed that their primary function is to validate something that you already believe to be true than look no further than this thread.  For me the only stat that would help is no use in this case.  Points per game when JWP plays versus when he doesn't would statistically answer the question if it was not for the fact that he's played virtually every game since Ralph joined and comparing to previous regimes would render the data unrepresentative.

And finally, do you actually enjoy resorting to "I'm right, you're wrong" tit for tat trench digging with personal insults being lobbed about?  If you do then fine and it's just me that finds it all rather pathetic.  But if you don't then please find a way to shake hands at the end of the match.  From my years of stalking on here I would say that @eggand @Minskare both passionate Saints fans who've contributed a great deal to the sum of thinking on here but we are on the same team FFS.

 

[Minsk]

4 hours ago, skintsaint said:

Well he has probably played about 200 games more 😅

Indeed he has. All of those (except a handful of cup matches) were in the Premier League or for England. None in French leagues 1 or 2. Also, in the post you quoted was this: 'JWP has sored and assisted more for England than Diallo has for Saints'. Just for clarification: JWP 9 matches for England, 2 goals; Diallo 37 matches for Saints (more than 4x James' England caps) 1 goal.

I don't see how anyone can argue that Diallo is more of a goal threat than JWP.

[Minsk]

4 hours ago, austsaint said:

Don't tell me....you were a champion debater at School, before you joined the Navy.

Not at all. Couldn't be arse much at school. Probably why I went straight in the navy after. Most of my better qualifications were obtained at evening/distance classes when more mature. I did help run and judge some debate clubs when I became a teacher after leaving the forces. Not really my thing though. That said, I find it is always good to try and prove a point, or base an opinion, on something tangible. Others seem to think that belittling people with different views, or calling them names, or refusing to answer questions/points made, is the best way to win an argument. As an educator just trying to educate them otherwise.

To keep on track, and you may have already given your view but I missed it, do you think we are better with or without JWP and what is the basis of that opinion?

[Minsk]

34 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

Blimey it's all kicked off on here since I last checked.  

The question posed in the thread title is a simple one.  I could choose to answer it with an opinion based on my experience of watching.  If I was doing that I would say yes we definitely a better team with JWP playing.  I didn't always think that but since Ralph took over he has developed considerably from being a technically strong but physically weak squad filler to one of the first names on the team sheet.  He is our captain, our engine, an all-rounder with excellent dead-ball skills.  He was outstanding over the last two years, so anyone judging him purely on 8 games this year is being myopic in my view.

Diallo has been brought into this debate I guess because he came in when JWP got suspended.  For me he has definitely got something about him and I hope he stays and develops.  I've seen hime play I guess about 20 times and he's been a bit of a mixed bag.  When we are playing well he is fluid and dynamic.   When we are not playing so well I wonder if he isn't a bit lightweight and not yet able to impose himself on a game the way JWP and Oriol can?  I'd need to look again but am struggling to think of a stand-out performance when others were below par.  

Not sure if this has been said elsewhere but it's not a binary choice in my view between JWP and Diallo.  I could easily imagine them playing in the same team, either when Romeu is out or as part of a three.  I think there will be some games where a 4-3-3 would be a good option and I'd definitely have all three in, with Oriol central and slightly deeper, JWP right and Diallo left.

As for the stats, if any more proof is needed that their primary function is to validate something that you already believe to be true than look no further than this thread.  For me the only stat that would help is no use in this case.  Points per game when JWP plays versus when he doesn't would statistically answer the question if it was not for the fact that he's played virtually every game since Ralph joined and comparing to previous regimes would render the data unrepresentative.

And finally, do you actually enjoy resorting to "I'm right, you're wrong" tit for tat trench digging with personal insults being lobbed about?  If you do then fine and it's just me that finds it all rather pathetic.  But if you don't then please find a way to shake hands at the end of the match.  From my years of stalking on here I would say that @eggand @Minskare both passionate Saints fans who've contributed a great deal to the sum of thinking on here but we are on the same team FFS.

 

Excellent post as ever TLB. It is nice to have such an erudite poster on here.

Sincere apologies if I have in any way ruined your reading of this, or any other, thread. I do know that I shouldn't let others drag me down to their level, but I will always stand my corner and will not just ignore it when people throw false accusations at me, try to belittle me or revert to childish name calling.

Anyway, moving on - I especially agree with your point regarding 4-3-3. I believe I posted elsewhere that I would like to see such a formation with Diallo-Romeu-JWP behind a front 3 of Arma-Broja-Redmond. Tino and KWP/Perraud giving width down the flanks. 

[Minsk]

3 hours ago, JibMcdo said:

JWP plays Ralph’s 6 role very nicely. It’s his and Romeu’s job to recycle possession between the two centre halves and wait for an opening to hit the two 10s or play a ball to a full back in space. They often are seen both dropping in between the two centre backs at the same time. Sometimes it means playing short passes where it looks like they’re not going anywhere and fans will think they’re slowing the game down but it’s all part of the team’s tactics and both CMs do the job well.

Diallo is a good addition to the squad, but he’s not as accomplished on the ball as JWP and I think the fact he can dribble away from players in transition with a bit more pace than Romeu or Ward-Prowse often catches a supporter’s eye. He won’t be replacing the 2 in the middle unless an injury occurs.

Spot on.

[SFC Forever]

I tend to agree with you about Diallo. He has shown glimpses but appears light weight as did JWP, until Ralph showed him the need to strengthen up. I would be interested to see how the three work together as well.

[CamSaint]

Romeu, JWP & Diallo all played together for the last 20 minutes of the home game against Manchester United, when Diallo replaced Djenepo.

[austsaint]

1 hour ago, Minsk said:

Not at all. Couldn't be arse much at school. Probably why I went straight in the navy after. Most of my better qualifications were obtained at evening/distance classes when more mature. I did help run and judge some debate clubs when I became a teacher after leaving the forces. Not really my thing though. That said, I find it is always good to try and prove a point, or base an opinion, on something tangible. Others seem to think that belittling people with different views, or calling them names, or refusing to answer questions/points made, is the best way to win an argument. As an educator just trying to educate them otherwise.

To keep on track, and you may have already given your view but I missed it, do you think we are better with or without JWP and what is the basis of that opinion?

Look, I have to thank you for quite a detailed, sincere response about your background  to my tongue-in-cheek post - and good on you for going back to education.   Like a lot of us who fecked up at School the first time round there's often a chance to get it right down the track.

If you go back to the early posts of this thread I think I wrote that the midfield of Romeu and Diallo offered something different during JWP's absence, and that during those three games we didn't really miss him; which is not the same as saying we are better without him in the side.  

I've written a lot about JWP on this site' most of it you would probably disagree with.   I see his dead ball skills as first class - in the past few seasons he has added a bit of bite and tackling technique to an exceptional work rate.   His first touch is good - but too often in my view, there's a safe pass or a failure to take the game on; run with the ball or look for a progressive pass which places his general play well below that exceptional dead ball delivery.   

 

 

[The Left Back]

17 minutes ago, austsaint said:

I've written a lot about JWP on this site' most of it you would probably disagree with.   I see his dead ball skills as first class - in the past few seasons he has added a bit of bite and tackling technique to an exceptional work rate.   His first touch is good - but too often in my view, there's a safe pass or a failure to take the game on; run with the ball or look for a progressive pass which places his general play well below that exceptional dead ball delivery.   

 

I think you are on to something here, so I'll try to build.  

I think he's added more than "a bit of bite and tackling technique" - for me it's more like a lot rather than a bit.

I agree that his instinct is for the safer pass.  I wonder if it's more psychological than anything.  When I've seen him play well for England and on his best games for Saints, he is more dynamic on the ball, more progressive in his intention and prepared to take a risk.  He gets beyond the ball, influences play in and around the box and makes and scores goals.  So I think he has the ability.  But too often for us, when we are struggling, our psychology is for safety over risk taking and it's frustrating to watch, particularly when we are chasing a game.  I'd apply the same criticism to Redmond and wonder if it is a more systemic issue than one of ability.  For that reason I could actually see JWP doing well in a better side than us.  For example, I think he could replace Fred at United or, at a push, Kovacic at Chelsea or Henderson at Liverpool - not that I think he'll end up at any of those places.

What he also has, that doesn't often get a mention, is 9 years premier league experience and the hard graft that entails.  Not many just 27 year olds (happy birthday for yesterday) can say that. So arguably he is yet to peak.

[Piran]

I can't be arsed to join in with some of the long-winded discussions above, but "No", I don't think we're a better team when JWP isn't in it.

The 3 games he missed were certainly well played by Saints and the midfield, which may appear to counter my opinion, but one thing I noticed was a bit of a gap when Saints lost the ball, or the opposition started to work the ball forward. JWP is often in what I think of as the 'right half' position, and he will regularly 'mop up' loose balls and move them on (even backwards!) instantly. Just like Matt Oakley, (mentioned above) and long ago Nick Holmes. Morgan Schneiderlin was good at it too. These moments are important to a team, and you can bet that managers are aware of this quality. 

[austsaint]

6 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

I think you are on to something here, so I'll try to build.  

I think he's added more than "a bit of bite and tackling technique" - for me it's more like a lot rather than a bit.

I agree that his instinct is for the safer pass.  I wonder if it's more psychological than anything.  When I've seen him play well for England and on his best games for Saints, he is more dynamic on the ball, more progressive in his intention and prepared to take a risk.  He gets beyond the ball, influences play in and around the box and makes and scores goals.  So I think he has the ability.  But too often for us, when we are struggling, our psychology is for safety over risk taking and it's frustrating to watch, particularly when we are chasing a game.  I'd apply the same criticism to Redmond and wonder if it is a more systemic issue than one of ability.  For that reason I could actually see JWP doing well in a better side than us.  For example, I think he could replace Fred at United or, at a push, Kovacic at Chelsea or Henderson at Liverpool - not that I think he'll end up at any of those places.

What he also has, that doesn't often get a mention, is 9 years premier league experience and the hard graft that entails.  Not many just 27 year olds (happy birthday for yesterday) can say that. So arguably he is yet to peak.

I can see the argument for JWP looking the part in a better side - partly because he has technical skills, and because there would be less expectation, less need for him to take the game on, push progressive passes or drive forward with the ball - one thing I've noticed about him is he often seeks out the better players to pass to; when Mane was here, he was the player JWP would seek out; these days it's often Livramento.    I can also remember early in Ralph's tenure, JWP spent a lot of time charging forward in and around the box, taking shots and generally getting into attacking positions - this seems to have changed - presumably under instruction.    One can't question his durability over 9 seasons..his work rate and aerobic capacity are strengths of his game.   When his time is done, he should be well satisfied with the games he's played, the money he has earned and the reputation he's created....I expect in 4 or 5 years time we will still be hearing the commentators reminding us of the quality of his dead ball delivery as he strides forward to take a corner or a free kick!

[SFC Forever]

4 hours ago, CamSaint said:

Romeu, JWP & Diallo all played together for the last 20 minutes of the home game against Manchester United, when Diallo replaced Djenepo.

true but 20 minutes is hardly enough to check them out as being a workable trio. 

We have all seen players perform diabolically for a small period of time or appear fantastic only to disappoint.

[Dman]

7 hours ago, Minsk said:

Indeed he has. All of those (except a handful of cup matches) were in the Premier League or for England. None in French leagues 1 or 2. Also, in the post you quoted was this: 'JWP has sored and assisted more for England than Diallo has for Saints'. Just for clarification: JWP 9 matches for England, 2 goals; Diallo 37 matches for Saints (more than 4x James' England caps) 1 goal.

I don't see how anyone can argue that Diallo is more of a goal threat than JWP.

Nice stat m8. 

‘Just for clarification’: JWP’s 2 England goals have come against the mighty forces of, errrr, San Marino and Andorra. One of which was a penalty. 

Regarding Diallo being more of a goal threat, he’s not. To be honest, JWP is probably our biggest goal threat at the moment (Borja aside) all because of his free kicks (this says more about our attacking options than anything else though). In open play, neither a going to be Frank Lampard and chip in with 10 goals (from open play) a season. 

Diallo however; is better at driving us forward, moving the ball and getting us the pitch quicker. For me (this is a forum based upon opinions), this is what makes us a better team with him in it next to the ball winner in Romeu. 

With JWP in the team, we’re very slow in possession which allows teams to form a decent defensive shape and low block, which we struggle to break down. For me, with the squad we have (very quick, but very limited technical / creative ability) we need to be playing on the counter attack getting the ball forward as quickly as possible.  

This is not a thread to debate who’s a better player. JWP is clearly better at the moment (he’s 5 years older with about 7 years more experience in the PL), it’s about who suits our style of play more. For me, that’s Diallo. 

[TWar]

27 minutes ago, Dman said:

Nice stat m8. 

‘Just for clarification’: JWP’s 2 England goals have come against the mighty forces of, errrr, San Marino and Andorra. One of which was a penalty. 

Regarding Diallo being more of a goal threat, he’s not. To be honest, JWP is probably our biggest goal threat at the moment (Borja aside) all because of his free kicks (this says more about our attacking options than anything else though). In open play, neither a going to be Frank Lampard and chip in with 10 goals (from open play) a season. 

Diallo however; is better at driving us forward, moving the ball and getting us the pitch quicker. For me (this is a forum based upon opinions), this is what makes us a better team with him in it next to the ball winner in Romeu. 

With JWP in the team, we’re very slow in possession which allows teams to form a decent defensive shape and low block, which we struggle to break down. For me, with the squad we have (very quick, but very limited technical / creative ability) we need to be playing on the counter attack getting the ball forward as quickly as possible.  

This is not a thread to debate who’s a better player. JWP is clearly better at the moment (he’s 5 years older with about 7 years more experience in the PL), it’s about who suits our style of play more. For me, that’s Diallo. 

Technically neither were pens, it was a rebound. I'm aware this is very pedantic!

[Minsk]

26 minutes ago, Dman said:

Nice stat m8. 

‘Just for clarification’: JWP’s 2 England goals have come against the mighty forces of, errrr, San Marino and Andorra. One of which was a penalty. 

Regarding Diallo being more of a goal threat, he’s not. To be honest, JWP is probably our biggest goal threat at the moment (Borja aside) all because of his free kicks (this says more about our attacking options than anything else though). In open play, neither a going to be Frank Lampard and chip in with 10 goals (from open play) a season. 

Diallo however; is better at driving us forward, moving the ball and getting us the pitch quicker. For me (this is a forum based upon opinions), this is what makes us a better team with him in it next to the ball winner in Romeu. 

With JWP in the team, we’re very slow in possession which allows teams to form a decent defensive shape and low block, which we struggle to break down. For me, with the squad we have (very quick, but very limited technical / creative ability) we need to be playing on the counter attack getting the ball forward as quickly as possible.  

This is not a thread to debate who’s a better player. JWP is clearly better at the moment (he’s 5 years older with about 7 years more experience in the PL), it’s about who suits our style of play more. For me, that’s Diallo. 

Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning. I do understand where you are coming from, but feel we haven't really seen enough of Diallo in/JWP out to come to such a conclusion. You initially based this opinion on the match against Leeds. I honestly don't think Diallo would have had the same impact had KP been playing for them. He wouldn't have nullified KP as JWP did last season. I also feel JWP was every bit as dynamic going forwards against Watford as Diallo had been in the matches he missed. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[Minsk]

5 hours ago, austsaint said:

Look, I have to thank you for quite a detailed, sincere response about your background  to my tongue-in-cheek post - and good on you for going back to education.   Like a lot of us who fecked up at School the first time round there's often a chance to get it right down the track.

If you go back to the early posts of this thread I think I wrote that the midfield of Romeu and Diallo offered something different during JWP's absence, and that during those three games we didn't really miss him; which is not the same as saying we are better without him in the side.  

I've written a lot about JWP on this site' most of it you would probably disagree with.   I see his dead ball skills as first class - in the past few seasons he has added a bit of bite and tackling technique to an exceptional work rate.   His first touch is good - but too often in my view, there's a safe pass or a failure to take the game on; run with the ball or look for a progressive pass which places his general play well below that exceptional dead ball delivery.   

 

 

 

4 hours ago, austsaint said:

I can see the argument for JWP looking the part in a better side - partly because he has technical skills, and because there would be less expectation, less need for him to take the game on, push progressive passes or drive forward with the ball - one thing I've noticed about him is he often seeks out the better players to pass to; when Mane was here, he was the player JWP would seek out; these days it's often Livramento.    I can also remember early in Ralph's tenure, JWP spent a lot of time charging forward in and around the box, taking shots and generally getting into attacking positions - this seems to have changed - presumably under instruction.    One can't question his durability over 9 seasons..his work rate and aerobic capacity are strengths of his game.   When his time is done, he should be well satisfied with the games he's played, the money he has earned and the reputation he's created....I expect in 4 or 5 years time we will still be hearing the commentators reminding us of the quality of his dead ball delivery as he strides forward to take a corner or a free kick!

Thank you for these 2 detailed posts. Not much in there to disagree with at all. I also feel that when JWP is playing the 'safer' ball it is more to do with instruction, i.e. retain possession and recycle. JWP rarely ever gives the ball away or plays a mis-hit pass.

[Mosin]

21 hours ago, Dman said:

Nice stat m8. 

‘Just for clarification’: JWP’s 2 England goals have come against the mighty forces of, errrr, San Marino and Andorra. One of which was a penalty. 

Regarding Diallo being more of a goal threat, he’s not. To be honest, JWP is probably our biggest goal threat at the moment (Borja aside) all because of his free kicks (this says more about our attacking options than anything else though). In open play, neither a going to be Frank Lampard and chip in with 10 goals (from open play) a season. 

Diallo however; is better at driving us forward, moving the ball and getting us the pitch quicker. For me (this is a forum based upon opinions), this is what makes us a better team with him in it next to the ball winner in Romeu. 

With JWP in the team, we’re very slow in possession which allows teams to form a decent defensive shape and low block, which we struggle to break down. For me, with the squad we have (very quick, but very limited technical / creative ability) we need to be playing on the counter attack getting the ball forward as quickly as possible.  

This is not a thread to debate who’s a better player. JWP is clearly better at the moment (he’s 5 years older with about 7 years more experience in the PL), it’s about who suits our style of play more. For me, that’s Diallo. 

So to you our football was better beating a weak leeds team that diallo registered 5 forward passes in., drawing with burnley and a relegation team fighting in the championship called sheff utd and with chelseas 3rd or 4th team is a better result than drawing with united, city, an inform west ham team and beating watford, a watford game we nearlly drawed in the last ten mins as diallo came on to replace this so called jwp who makes us play worse and suddenly lost control of the game in which OR and JWP both played well in and had pretty much dominated for 79 mins... 

So to sum it up, beating leeds with its best defender, best player and mid, winger and Stiker all missing and drawing with Burnley, sheff and chelseas 3rd or fourth team is better than all the other results we have had this season that jwp started in and diallo didnt? 

I left the newport game out as they both played and jwp got two assists even though he was playing in OR role and diallo was playings jwp role. 

See when i think of it like that, which is pretty much what your saying, in my mind it tells me this is more persona than any thing else... 

 

Unless you really think the draws and victory with diallo are better than the draws and victory with jwp even though the games jwp played in are on paper was far harder fixtures? 

[CAH61]

Yes, this is a forum for differing opinions and no two fans will see the game in exactly the same way. I guess that ultimately the only opinion that currently matters is the man who picks the team and I think that putting JWP straight back in after 3 games out shows who he thinks best suits his style of play. This may be a bit harsh on Diallo, who was very good in his absence and it's nice to have a reliable back up for cover and competition.

I think that JWP plays in the way that Ralph instructs him to, he and Romeu are the water carriers for the front 4 and the former has proved in the past that he can play in a more attacking role often arriving late in the box to get goal attempts (which he often spurned!). He is Ralph's captain and leader on the pitch so it's not that suprising to me that he continues to pick him.

Edited 3 November, 2021 by CAH61

[Billy the Kidd]

2 minutes ago, CAH61 said:

Yes, this is a forum for differing opinions and no two fans will see the game in exactly the same way. I guess that ultimately the only opinion that currently matters is the man who picks the team and I think that putting JWP straight back in after 3 games out shows who he thinks best suits his style of play. This may be a bit harsh on Diallo, who was very good in his absence and it's nice to have a reliable back up for cover and competition.

I think that JWP plays in the way that Ralph instructs him to, he and Romeu are the water carriers for the front 4 and the former has proved in the past that he can play in a more attacking role often arriving late in the box to get goal attempts (which he often spurned!). He is Ralph's captain and leader on the pitch so it's not that suprising to me that he continues to pick him.

I think you have a good point on JWP doing the job Ralph wants him to perform, so maybe it is a little harsh to judge JWP if he is only following instructions.

I believe Ralph does prefer him to Diallo, that said I still think he will be sold if a right sized offer comes our way, such is our financial model of the club.

And yep, for me I guess it it irrelevant as he holds the shirt, up to others to play well enough to take it from him, and after the shit show of last season, much needed competition.

[Chez]

I don't see Diallo moving the ball all that much quicker or forward a great deal more than JWP. Both are water carrying crabs. That's their role by and large. Big difference is Diallo can actually dribble, while JWP can ping a dead ball. I think (hope) we have yet to see the best of Diallo. I think last two seasons have been peak JWP.

[TWar]

Alongside Salisu my man of the match today. JWP made some absolutely vital tackles, dictated tempo, and in the first half was running the game from deep and bringing people into play. Romeu was quality too.

We have so many little battles in our team (JWP/Romeu/Diallo, Livra/KWP/Perraud, Broja/Arma/Che) I absolutely love it!

Edited 5 November, 2021 by TWar

[Manuel]

Just now, TWar said:

Alongside Salisu my man of the match today. JWP made some absolutely vital tackles, dictated tempo, and in the first half was running the game from deep and bringing people into play.

Salisu stressed me out with his back passes to the keeper though.  Obviously a top class player there but still a little fine tuning needed. 

[The Kraken]

8 minutes ago, Manuel said:

Salisu stressed me out with his back passes to the keeper though.  Obviously a top class player there but still a little fine tuning needed. 

More than a little, based on that. Very solid at times but in others he looks rushed and a bit casual, his back passes as you say were just not good enough.

[Baird of the land]

That was a lovely diving tackle by JWP in the first half to stop one of Villa's few attacks.

[notnowcato]

No

[Billy the Kidd]

I’ve been a little on the fence so I really watched JWPs game last night.

Thiught he was really good, and it was likely me not understanding his role in the team, I wouldn’t be moving him out. 

[rooney]

Played a big part in winning a tackle to help set up the  goal.

[Sheaf Saint]

Shame Villa have such a top class keeper, otherwise he would have got a goal of the season contender last night.

[Chapel End]

Yes