Are we a better team when JWP isn’t in it?

[Mosin]

3 hours ago, Verbal Kint said:

He had a quiet game, but he always does if he isn't scoring a free kick.

Even for those that like data, I looked at last season's and Romeu outperformed JWP in most of the relevant open play metrics (tackles and interceptions, pressing, ball carrying, progressive passes, passes leading to shots etc). Diallo was better than him for a lot of these as well.

I think it's pretty obvious to most by now that JWP's only real strength is set pieces, and he offers very little else. His free kicks are probably the best in the league though, so I guess you have to decide how valuable that is for a team like us and if it compensates enough for his mediocrity in open play

 

Your not reading it right.. Twar already did this..... And showed his evidence and jwp was our best mid ( dm / cm). 

[TWar]

6 hours ago, Verbal Kint said:

Even for those that like data, I looked at last season's and Romeu outperformed JWP in most of the relevant open play metrics (tackles and interceptions, pressing, ball carrying, progressive passes, passes leading to shots etc). Diallo was better than him for a lot of these as well.

I respectfully disagree with this. The data as I see it for last season is:

For this I have highlighted the best as green, the second best as orange, and third as red. The aggregations are conducted by assigning 3 points to a win, 2 to second, and 1 to third and adding up total scores.

I encourage you to take the aggregates with a MASSIVE grain of salt as not all metrics are equally valuable and the picking of the metrics massively sways the aggregate. For example, if I had chosen to include tackle % as well as actual tackles and not included touches in the final third then Romeu would be higher in the "overall" than JWP.

Eitherway, I think it is clear JWP is most valuable going forward with a slight weakness with dribbling, Romeu is second but not a close second and Diallo is third. Defensively Romeu is an absolute tank, bossing most metrics. JWP has some respectable 2nds and some more distant ones, and Diallo is third.

The table doesn't make great reading for Diallo but this was his first season and I expect him to improve. JWP is most valuable with the ball and Romeu is most valuable against it.

Data obtained primarily through OPTA stats with a fantasy football scout subscription. Pressures, prog. passes and passes leading to shots were obtained from FBRef as fantasy football scout doesn't carry this info. Other data sites are available and may vary!

Edited 1 November, 2021 by TWar

[TWar]

On 18/10/2021 at 15:54, Turkish said:

Any chance of bullet points next time?

I did you one better, have a colour coordinated table!

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, TWar said:

I respectfully disagree with this. The data as I see it for last season is:

For this I have highlighted the best as green, the second best as orange, and third as red. The aggregations are conducted by assigning 3 points to a win, 2 to second, and 1 to third and adding up total scores.

I encourage you to take the aggregates with a MASSIVE grain of salt as not all metrics are equally valuable and the picking of the metrics massively sways the aggregate. For example, if I had chosen to include tackle % as well as actual tackles and not included touches in the final third then Romeu would be higher in the "overall" than JWP.

Eitherway, I think it is clear JWP is most valuable going forward with a slight weakness with dribbling, Romeu is second but not a close second and Diallo is third. Defensively Romeu is an absolute tank, bossing most metrics. JWP has some respectable 2nds and some more distant ones, and Diallo is third.

The table doesn't make great reading for Diallo but this was his first season and I expect him to improve. JWP is most valuable with the ball and Romeu is most valuable against it.

Data obtained primarily through OPTA stats with a fantasy football scout subscription. Pressures, prog. passes and passes leading to shots were obtained from FBRef as fantasy football scout doesn't carry this info. Other data sites are available and may vary!

Load of old pony 

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

Load of old pony 

So instead of facts you prefer to use plucked out of the air feelings about what is happening?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

8 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

So instead of facts you prefer to use plucked out of the air feelings about what is happening?

None of the other stats mean anything if your successful dribble rate is so poor.

[Verbal]

15 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Load of old pony 

Says Saintsweb's leading purveyor of fact-free horse shit?

[Dman]

28 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

So instead of facts you prefer to use plucked out of the air feelings about what is happening?

Diallo, last season, only really got a half decent run in the side when Romeu was out injured and that was playing alongside JWP or Armstrong and we as a team we’re absolutely dog shit with significant injures. 

He was mainly brought on as a sub to sure the game up a bit (even coming on as a 10 a few times, if I remember rightly) or being played in a role he’s not all that suited to. 

To be honest, this table is absolutely pointless and all it shows to me is the importance of Romeu.

I’d be very interested to see that table again for this season. Where it would be a little be more of a level playing field. 

[Mosin]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Diallo, last season, only really got a half decent run in the side when Romeu was out injured and that was playing alongside JWP or Armstrong and we as a team we’re absolutely dog shit with significant injures. 

He was mainly brought on as a sub to sure the game up a bit (even coming on as a 10 a few times, if I remember rightly) or being played in a role he’s not all that suited to. 

To be honest, this table is absolutely pointless and all it shows to me is the importance of Romeu.

I’d be very interested to see that table again for this season. Where it would be a little be more of a level playing field. 

And jwp has mostly played the best teams in the league so far eg chelseas first team, united, city, west ham, while diallo had a very weak leeds team we only just won, a  Sheffield United team which we drawed against, a draw against burnley and a draw against chelseas team c or d.. Depends on the chelsea fan you ask... 

Jwp comes back and we beat watford and only looked like conceding a goal when diallo replaced jwp and had us on the back foot for the last ten mins. 

 We will see at the end of the season... 

 

[revolution saint]

5 hours ago, TWar said:

I respectfully disagree with this. The data as I see it for last season is:

For this I have highlighted the best as green, the second best as orange, and third as red. The aggregations are conducted by assigning 3 points to a win, 2 to second, and 1 to third and adding up total scores.

I encourage you to take the aggregates with a MASSIVE grain of salt as not all metrics are equally valuable and the picking of the metrics massively sways the aggregate. For example, if I had chosen to include tackle % as well as actual tackles and not included touches in the final third then Romeu would be higher in the "overall" than JWP.

Eitherway, I think it is clear JWP is most valuable going forward with a slight weakness with dribbling, Romeu is second but not a close second and Diallo is third. Defensively Romeu is an absolute tank, bossing most metrics. JWP has some respectable 2nds and some more distant ones, and Diallo is third.

The table doesn't make great reading for Diallo but this was his first season and I expect him to improve. JWP is most valuable with the ball and Romeu is most valuable against it.

Data obtained primarily through OPTA stats with a fantasy football scout subscription. Pressures, prog. passes and passes leading to shots were obtained from FBRef as fantasy football scout doesn't carry this info. Other data sites are available and may vary!

Appreciate that you’re answering a question over whether Romeu is better than JWP but they play different roles so the data isn’t really relevant (because the question isn’t relevant). It’s a bit like comparing Adams and Lyanco (just used him cos I know you’re a big fan). Obviously that’s an extreme example to illustrate a point. Romeu is better defensively because there’s more of an emphasis on that in his role and JWP better offensively for the same reason. 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, revolution saint said:

Appreciate that you’re answering a question over whether Romeu is better than JWP but they play different roles so the data isn’t really relevant (because the question isn’t relevant). It’s a bit like comparing Adams and Lyanco (just used him cos I know you’re a big fan). Obviously that’s an extreme example to illustrate a point. Romeu is better defensively because there’s more of an emphasis on that in his role and JWP better offensively for the same reason. 

I agree. I think if we play our current system (one defensive mid, one box to box) then Romeu will always have to start as we basically have no competition in that role. I would like to see us adapt to play Diallo and JWP without a full DM, I think having a mobile intelligent CB in Salisu would help it.

To be honest though, it probably has been tried in training so if it isn't being used I assume there is a reason behind that, similar to the KWP behind Livramento idea.

[revolution saint]

6 minutes ago, TWar said:

I agree. I think if we play our current system (one defensive mid, one box to box) then Romeu will always have to start as we basically have no competition in that role. I would like to see us adapt to play Diallo and JWP without a full DM, I think having a mobile intelligent CB in Salisu would help it.

To be honest though, it probably has been tried in training so if it isn't being used I assume there is a reason behind that, similar to the KWP behind Livramento idea.

I think if you’re going to do that then you need to sacrifice one of the 10s or one of the two strikers. Also point out that Diallo comes off worse in your stats but he was playing the more defensive role and it coincided with the whole team underperforming (at least in part due to injuries) Diallo replacing JWP will make those stats look better for him. Anyway, as for the OP question, I’m not sure we’re better without JWP so I would probably play him most of the time but that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t sell him if we got a decent offer.

[TWar]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

I’d be very interested to see that table again for this season. Where it would be a little be more of a level playing field. 

I'd argue that this would be less of an even playing field as Diallo has only played 3 games and they were against markedly easier opposition than those JWP played against. Either way, I am not one to let you down, so as requested here is the data for this season (but don't ever say I don't do anything for ya 😉)

 

Similar results really, JWP is still the best as an attacking outlet, Diallo still struggles a bit, Romeu is still the best defensively. JWP prog passes are pretty low compared to the other two but I suggest thats because our average possession was lower when he played (again likely due to quality of opposition).

Edited 1 November, 2021 by TWar

[TWar]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

None of the other stats mean anything if your successful dribble rate is so poor.

I'd be interested to see what you mean here. Do passes matter less than dribbles? Yes JWP has the lowest successful dribbles but it is only 0.4 to Diallos 0.5 so hardly a massive difference. When it comes to passes leading to shots he almost doubles his contemporaries, would you not say that is more valuable?

[lambtiss]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

None of the other stats mean anything if your successful dribble rate is so poor.

Now that is dribble 😄

[Minsk]

4 hours ago, Dman said:

Diallo, last season, only really got a half decent run in the side when Romeu was out injured and that was playing alongside JWP or Armstrong and we as a team we’re absolutely dog shit with significant injures. 

He was mainly brought on as a sub to sure the game up a bit (even coming on as a 10 a few times, if I remember rightly) or being played in a role he’s not all that suited to. 

To be honest, this table is absolutely pointless and all it shows to me is the importance of Romeu.

I’d be very interested to see that table again for this season. Where it would be a little be more of a level playing field. 

How would you say the team performed in the last 10 minutes on Saturday? Especially in comparison to the first half?

[egg]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

I'd argue that this would be less of an even playing field as Diallo has only played 3 games and they were against markedly easier opposition than those JWP played against. Either way, I am not one to let you down, so as requested here is the data for this season (but don't ever say I don't do anything for ya 😉)

 

Similar results really, JWP is still the best as an attacking outlet, Diallo still struggles a bit, Romeu is still the best defensively. JWP prog passes are pretty low compared to the other two but I suggest thats because our average possession was lower when he played (again likely due to quality of opposition).

I too would like to see this for this season. Diallo was settling last season, played a bit part, and played across various positions. Stats based on that against regular starters in their preferred positions are largely meaningless. Also, those stats don't show what we all can see namely that JWP takes about a fortnight to use the ball thus slowing us down, whereas Diallo releases it much quicker. 

[TWar]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

I too would like to see this for this season. Diallo was settling last season, played a bit part, and played across various positions. Stats based on that against regular starters in their preferred positions are largely meaningless. Also, those stats don't show what we all can see namely that JWP takes about a fortnight to use the ball thus slowing us down, whereas Diallo releases it much quicker. 

Already posted it  

Wasn't much difference except JWP was lower on prog passes.

[egg]

Just now, TWar said:

Already posted it  

Wasn't much difference except JWP was lower on prog passes.

Gotcha, just read from the top. 

On the pitch it doesn't translate in that way. For me, we look better - slicker, quicker, more progressive - with Diallo in the side. 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Gotcha, just read from the top. 

On the pitch it doesn't translate in that way. For me, we look better - slicker, quicker, more progressive - with Diallo in the side. 

That's fair enough, I dare say a couple of other things were at play. Firstly, much easier opponents, obviously making us look better. And secondly, we transitioned over to playing Broja as more of a lone forward with Redmond in a free role and I think that was more fluid than the first games of the season (JWP featured in that formation too but mostly he was in the more standard 4222 with Armstrong and Adams).

[Minsk]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Gotcha, just read from the top. 

On the pitch it doesn't translate in that way. For me, we look better - slicker, quicker, more progressive - with Diallo in the side. 

From what I saw, didn't happen that way at all on Saturday. JWP was every bit as progressive, playing some excellent forward passes, as Diallo had been against similar opposition. We also lost all forward momentum when Diallo replaced him for the final 10 minutes.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Minsk said:

From what I saw, didn't happen that way at all on Saturday. JWP was every bit as progressive, playing some excellent forward passes, as Diallo had been against similar opposition. We also lost all forward momentum when Diallo replaced him for the final 10 minutes.

It's a game of opinions Minsk, but for me, we looked far better in the 3 games that JWP was out than we had previously. Judging Diallo coming into a game 80 mins in isn't comparing apples with apples. 

[revolution saint]

4 minutes ago, Minsk said:

From what I saw, didn't happen that way at all on Saturday. JWP was every bit as progressive, playing some excellent forward passes, as Diallo had been against similar opposition. We also lost all forward momentum when Diallo replaced him for the final 10 minutes.

All about opinions.  Diallo always looks to move the ball forwards quicker than JWP does (is there a stat for that)?  

[egg]

Just now, revolution saint said:

All about opinions.  Diallo always looks to move the ball forwards quicker than JWP does (is there a stat for that)?  

Absolutely. There's no stat for that. JWP is very slow at using the ball for a premier league player. Diallo is much better in that respect. 

[Billy the Kidd]

1 minute ago, egg said:

It's a game of opinions Minsk, but for me, we looked far better in the 3 games that JWP was out than we had previously. Judging Diallo coming into a game 80 mins in isn't comparing apples with apples. 

I agree, Watford were chasing the game harder at 80 mins, so wasn’t reflective of the rest of the game, they committed more forward and penned us in a little. 

I’m also not sure if we play better with or without JWP, but if someone stuck £50m under our snouts, I’d be fuming if we declined it. 

[CB Fry]

Saints without JWP would be like Villa without McGinn.

[ErwinK1961]

21 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Saints without JWP would be like Villa without McGinn.

Thank god he’s suspended on Friday.

[Mosin]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Absolutely. There's no stat for that. JWP is very slow at using the ball for a premier league player. Diallo is much better in that respect. 

JWP is an accomplished first time passer and regualy does one touch passes if he has a chance and some one to pass too for both club and country...
 

 

1 hour ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I agree, Watford were chasing the game harder at 80 mins, so wasn’t reflective of the rest of the game, they committed more forward and penned us in a little. 

I’m also not sure if we play better with or without JWP, but if someone stuck £50m under our snouts, I’d be fuming if we declined it. 

Diallo came on and the first contribution he did was to give the ball away. he proceeded to fail 4 more passes before full time, he only made 11 attampted passes, only 5 came off,  he was on the pitch for 10 mins 14 if you include stopping time.... Diallo was the reason we got put on the back foot, the moment JWP came off the game changed and we lost the middle of the park completely and struggled to get out of our half.


@Billy the Kidd "You see it this way, not everyone does. 

How come we played well in the previous 3 games without JWP? Was it the opposition was poor, and allowed us to look good and Diallo made to look better than he is?

like I said I’m not saying who is better as I don’t know for sure, just I’d sell him if a large offer came in. 

and again, right or wrong I think JWP slows our game down a little more than Diallo. "

Thats all opinion, some of are best goals last season was done from JWP playing one touch football, in fact, he did a fine move after playing a one two with Ings and only touched the ball 3 times, chest, out side of boot pass to ings ( whilst under presure from two players.... ) , lovely finish..  thing is, no one ever pays attention to what JWP actually does. here watch a highlight clip from just last season...

 

Edited 1 November, 2021 by Mosin

[Matthew Le God]

1 hour ago, revolution saint said:

All about opinions.  Diallo always looks to move the ball forwards quicker than JWP does (is there a stat for that)?  

 

1 hour ago, egg said:

Absolutely. There's no stat for that. JWP is very slow at using the ball for a premier league player. Diallo is much better in that respect. 

Stats for things such as that do exist. Not widely and publicly available though. 

[Billy the Kidd]

8 minutes ago, Mosin said:

JWP is an accomplished first time passer and regualy does one touch passes if he has a chance and some one to pass too for both club and country...
 

 

Diallo came on and the first contribution he did was to give the ball away. he proceeded to fail 4 more passes before full time, he only made 11 attampted passes, only 5 came off,  he was on the pitch for 10 mins 14 if you include stopping time.... Diallo was the reason we got put on the back foot, the moment JWP came off the game changed and we lost the middle of the park completely and struggled to get out of our half.

You see it this way, not everyone does. 

How come we played well in the previous 3 games without JWP? Was it the opposition was poor, and allowed us to look good and Diallo made to look better than he is?

like I said I’m not saying who is better as I don’t know for sure, just I’d sell him if a large offer came in. 

and again, right or wrong I think JWP slows our game down a little more than Diallo. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Stats for things such as that do exist. Not widely and publicly available though. 

Interesting...do you have access MLG? 

[Give it to Ron]

19 minutes ago, Mosin said:

JWP is an accomplished first time passer and regualy does one touch passes if he has a chance and some one to pass too for both club and country...
 

 

Diallo came on and the first contribution he did was to give the ball away. he proceeded to fail 4 more passes before full time, he only made 11 attampted passes, only 5 came off,  he was on the pitch for 10 mins 14 if you include stopping time.... Diallo was the reason we got put on the back foot, the moment JWP came off the game changed and we lost the middle of the park completely and struggled to get out of our half.

Do you know how difficult it is coming on and picking up the pace of a game that late? 

[CAH61]

It's only a few months since JWP was voted POTS but fans have a short memory. This season is not the first that he has started slowly (I believe he had a niggle in pre -season and a stomach problem) but he always gets better the more he plays. He is not a flashy player but he is a very important link up man in the middle and covers a lot of ground. That said, I don't think that his corners have been the best this season but his free kicks into the area have been his usual quality.

Edited 1 November, 2021 by CAH61

[Billy the Kidd]

10 minutes ago, CAH61 said:

It's only a few months since JWP was voted POTS but fans have a short memory. This season is not the first that he has started slowly (I believe he had a niggle in pre -season and a stomach problem) but he always gets better the more he plays. He is not a flashy player but he is a very important link up man in the middle and covers a lot of ground. That said, I don't think that his corners have been the best this season but his free kicks into the area have been his usual quality.

Not sure it is that fans have a short memory, I’ve never hugely rated him even when he won player of the season.

I thought he was ok last year, but showed we had a pretty low bar in so much as no one else stepped up and everyone was more or less average last season. 

If his sale (if it ever happens) funds 2 or 3 others, then I’d be happy for him to get a move. No issues if he stays either btw, I just think that Diallo could step up and may offer us something slightly different. 

[Dman]

2 hours ago, Minsk said:

How would you say the team performed in the last 10 minutes on Saturday? Especially in comparison to the first half?

What sort of argument is this 😂😂😂 

 

Have you ever played a game of football In your life?
 

In fact, did you even watch the game? I thought JWP was pretty average all game to be honest. 

[CAH61]

13 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Not sure it is that fans have a short memory, I’ve never hugely rated him even when he won player of the season.

I thought he was ok last year, but showed we had a pretty low bar in so much as no one else stepped up and everyone was more or less average last season. 

If his sale (if it ever happens) funds 2 or 3 others, then I’d be happy for him to get a move. No issues if he stays either btw, I just think that Diallo could step up and may offer us something slightly different. 

He was our main man last season ahead of Stuey and KWP and was gaining national attention in the run up to the Euros with lots of fans of other clubs disappointed when he was not selected. As i've said, he is not flashy but all his stats show that he is a very important player for us IMO.

The fact that Ralph put him straight back into the team shows how important he thinks he is.

Edited 1 November, 2021 by CAH61

[egg]

1 minute ago, CAH61 said:

He was our main man last season ahead of Stuey and KWP and was gaining national attention in the run up to the Euros with lots of fans of other clubs disappointed when he was not selected. As i've said, he is not flashy but all his stats show that he is a very important player for us IMO.

He was the best of an average lot last season, his dead balls being the highlight. 

Fans of other clubs see the highlight reel and based in that, its understandable that they'd expect to have seen him picked. The England management will have seen the games, and understand it, so it's understandable why they left him at home.

[Billy the Kidd]

5 minutes ago, CAH61 said:

He was our main man last season ahead of Stuey and KWP and was gaining national attention in the run up to the Euros with lots of fans of other clubs disappointed when he was not selected. As i've said, he is not flashy but all his stats show that he is a very important player for us IMO.

Fair enough 👍

I think KWP was good last season but other than that, pretty average bunch. 

And who knows, we may play better without him through the players we could bring in, after all our recruitment has been pretty good of late. 

[CAH61]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

He was the best of an average lot last season, his dead balls being the highlight. 

Fans of other clubs see the highlight reel and based in that, its understandable that they'd expect to have seen him picked. The England management will have seen the games, and understand it, so it's understandable why they left him at home.

All his passing, ground covering and tackling/interception stats are very good, he does the important things well for a CM.

[Chez]

16 hours ago, Verbal Kint said:

I think it's pretty obvious to most by now that JWP's only real strength is set pieces, and he offers very little else. 

 

he has an excellent first touch, which enables him to play CM in a Prem side.  Don't underestimate that. Mis-control and lose the ball in that area and you are royally fucked. It's great we have three players fighting it out for two shirts. Diallo will get his chance.

[egg]

12 minutes ago, CAH61 said:

All his passing, ground covering and tackling/interception stats are very good, he does the important things well for a CM.

Yep, he's a decent player, just not as good as some make out. There's a reason he's an international bit part player. 

[Manuel]

I was impressed with Diallo and wouldn't have minded if he'd kept his place.  That said, Prowse had a good game and I have no complaints. 

What's nice is now being able to have these kinds of choices, starting to get some decent depth at last.  

[Minsk]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

What sort of argument is this 😂😂😂 

 

Have you ever played a game of football In your life?
 

In fact, did you even watch the game? I thought JWP was pretty average all game to be honest. 

It wasn't an argument, it was a question. One which you failed to answer, as you often do when it is too difficult for you. It must be hard having such a poor grasp of the English language and being unable to distinguish the difference between a question and an argument. Maybe English isn't your first language? Not judging.

I've played plenty of football thanks. All around the world. Even in matches against top, top, players. Including full internationals for their countries. Have you played much? Not that it really matters. Lawrie Mac wasn't much of a player. I guess he was a shit manager because of it, huh? Whereas Le Tissier has had a glittering managerial career.....

Yes, I watched the full match. If you did also, and you think JWP was simply 'average' it says more about your football knowledge than mine. To turn my original question (which I would still like an answer to) into more of an argument (seeing as that is where you want to go) I am sure that Diallo must have improved our attacking prowess when he replaced Prowse? After all, according you, we are a better team with him in the side vice JWP. 

[Verbal Kint]

12 hours ago, TWar said:

I respectfully disagree with this. The data as I see it for last season is:

For this I have highlighted the best as green, the second best as orange, and third as red. The aggregations are conducted by assigning 3 points to a win, 2 to second, and 1 to third and adding up total scores.

I encourage you to take the aggregates with a MASSIVE grain of salt as not all metrics are equally valuable and the picking of the metrics massively sways the aggregate. For example, if I had chosen to include tackle % as well as actual tackles and not included touches in the final third then Romeu would be higher in the "overall" than JWP.

Eitherway, I think it is clear JWP is most valuable going forward with a slight weakness with dribbling, Romeu is second but not a close second and Diallo is third. Defensively Romeu is an absolute tank, bossing most metrics. JWP has some respectable 2nds and some more distant ones, and Diallo is third.

The table doesn't make great reading for Diallo but this was his first season and I expect him to improve. JWP is most valuable with the ball and Romeu is most valuable against it.

Data obtained primarily through OPTA stats with a fantasy football scout subscription. Pressures, prog. passes and passes leading to shots were obtained from FBRef as fantasy football scout doesn't carry this info. Other data sites are available and may vary!

Those attacking stats include set pieces though don't they? My initial point was take them away and what is left?

For example, shot creating actions from open play - JWP last of the 3

Completed passes into the penalty area from open play: Romeu has more.

Progressive ball carries - JWP last

Your tackles won and interceptions data for Diallo doesn't match up to the fbref site either: JWP last of the 3 again by distance

These are the key qualities of a no. 6 right? Winning the ball, pressing, moving the team up the pitch, using the ball effectively. The only metric he is topping significantly is passes into the final 1/3, but the fact his passing into the penalty area then drops off so significantly tells another story itself doesn't it? What are his actual strengths?

He is a free kick specialist - a bloody good one at that, and people may believe he is worth his place in the side based on that alone and can make that argument, but people saying he is our best player, talisman etc. are seeing a different player than my eyes and the data indicates. There is a strong argument that he isn't even our best midfielder 

[Sheaf Saint]

2 hours ago, CAH61 said:

All his passing, ground covering and tackling/interception stats are very good, he does the important things well for a CM.

I thinks someone earlier in the thread made the comparison to Matt Oakley, and I used to say the same about him when debating his value with other fans. Both players whose contribution could easily be overlooked because they don't do flair and rarely stand out, but are reliable players who do what's expected of them very well. The obvious difference with JWP is his direct free kicks, but it's been a while since he scored one of those. And let's be honest, his corners really aren't all that good and Redmond was putting in better ones recently while he was suspended.

[Minsk]

4 hours ago, egg said:

It's a game of opinions Minsk, but for me, we looked far better in the 3 games that JWP was out than we had previously. Judging Diallo coming into a game 80 mins in isn't comparing apples with apples. 

Yes, it's all about opinions - as we have discussed and agreed many times before. Why do you keep throwing that up whenever someone has a different opinion to you? Does it make you feel insecure? I'm absolutely fine with others having a different opinion to me. It is great when they can back up their opinion with something tangible, other than a 'well, it's my opinion'. I always try to do so. 

My opinion is that the reason we looked better going forwards in the 3 previous matches was down to a number of factors, such as: the opposition; the shape and tactics of the team as determined by Ralph; the payers selected for certain positions. I do not think that we looked any less effective against Watford than we did in any of the preceding 3 matches. If you do, please try to quantify why.

Comparing apples with apples is exactly what comparing the 2 players in the same team against the same opposition on the same day is. Comparing JWP playing at home to Man Utd or away to Man City with Diallo at home to Leeds (missing their best midfielder) or away to Sheffield Utd most certainly isn't. I wonder how Diallo would have fared if Kalvin Phillips had been opposite him? Can't really see him nullifying KP as JWP did last season. Might be wrong though. If we are better as a team with Diallo playing as opposed to JWP then surely we would have played better when the change was made? As it happened, Diallo was extremely wasteful hen he came on. He made one very good tackle. End of.

I believe we are better with JWP because: he a better tackler; has a better range of passing; is more experienced; has created, and is far better at creating, goals for other players (from open play, not just set pieces); is capable of scoring a range of goals himself (again, from open play and not just set pieces). I could probably go on but that's enough for now. You think we are a better team the other way around because it seems to you that Diallo passes the ball forwards more quickly than JWP. (Regardless of the fact that not once has that ever led to a Saints goal). Any other reason? Goals and assists don't count? Defensive duties don't count?

[maysie]

1 minute ago, Minsk said:

Yes, it's all about opinions - as we have discussed and agreed many times before. Why do you keep throwing that up whenever someone has a different opinion to you? Does it make you feel insecure? I'm absolutely fine with others having a different opinion to me. It is great when they can back up their opinion with something tangible, other than a 'well, it's my opinion'. I always try to do so. 

My opinion is that the reason we looked better going forwards in the 3 previous matches was down to a number of factors, such as: the opposition; the shape and tactics of the team as determined by Ralph; the payers selected for certain positions. I do not think that we looked any less effective against Watford than we did in any of the preceding 3 matches. If you do, please try to quantify why.

Comparing apples with apples is exactly what comparing the 2 players in the same team against the same opposition on the same day is. Comparing JWP playing at home to Man Utd or away to Man City with Diallo at home to Leeds (missing their best midfielder) or away to Sheffield Utd most certainly isn't. I wonder how Diallo would have fared if Kalvin Phillips had been opposite him? Can't really see him nullifying KP as JWP did last season. Might be wrong though. If we are better as a team with Diallo playing as opposed to JWP then surely we would have played better when the change was made? As it happened, Diallo was extremely wasteful hen he came on. He made one very good tackle. End of.

I believe we are better with JWP because: he a better tackler; has a better range of passing; is more experienced; has created, and is far better at creating, goals for other players (from open play, not just set pieces); is capable of scoring a range of goals himself (again, from open play and not just set pieces). I could probably go on but that's enough for now. You think we are a better team the other way around because it seems to you that Diallo passes the ball forwards more quickly than JWP. (Regardless of the fact that not once has that ever led to a Saints goal). Any other reason? Goals and assists don't count? Defensive duties don't count?

Do you realise how passive aggressive you are?

[egg]

3 minutes ago, maysie said:

Do you realise how passive aggressive you are?

Passive? 

[Minsk]

2 hours ago, egg said:

Yep, he's a decent player, just not as good as some make out. There's a reason he's an international bit part player. 

Hilarious. The way you have worded the above is you alluding to the fact that he can't be that good because he isn't regularly picked in every England squad.

I don't think it just my Saints bias that believes he offers he far more than Henderson (for example). I also believe he is a better all round player than Kalvin Phillips (that one has been debated to death). I know many fans of other teams who agree with me. You don't. No worries. You're entitled to that opinion. But to try and bash him because Southgate doesn't pick him for every squad is ridiculous. That said, and to drop to your petty level, how many full caps does Diallo have for France? Maybe there's a reason for that number........

 

[egg]

6 minutes ago, Minsk said:

Yes, it's all about opinions - as we have discussed and agreed many times before. Why do you keep throwing that up whenever someone has a different opinion to you? Does it make you feel insecure? I'm absolutely fine with others having a different opinion to me. It is great when they can back up their opinion with something tangible, other than a 'well, it's my opinion'. I always try to do so. 

My opinion is that the reason we looked better going forwards in the 3 previous matches was down to a number of factors, such as: the opposition; the shape and tactics of the team as determined by Ralph; the payers selected for certain positions. I do not think that we looked any less effective against Watford than we did in any of the preceding 3 matches. If you do, please try to quantify why.

Comparing apples with apples is exactly what comparing the 2 players in the same team against the same opposition on the same day is. Comparing JWP playing at home to Man Utd or away to Man City with Diallo at home to Leeds (missing their best midfielder) or away to Sheffield Utd most certainly isn't. I wonder how Diallo would have fared if Kalvin Phillips had been opposite him? Can't really see him nullifying KP as JWP did last season. Might be wrong though. If we are better as a team with Diallo playing as opposed to JWP then surely we would have played better when the change was made? As it happened, Diallo was extremely wasteful hen he came on. He made one very good tackle. End of.

I believe we are better with JWP because: he a better tackler; has a better range of passing; is more experienced; has created, and is far better at creating, goals for other players (from open play, not just set pieces); is capable of scoring a range of goals himself (again, from open play and not just set pieces). I could probably go on but that's enough for now. You think we are a better team the other way around because it seems to you that Diallo passes the ball forwards more quickly than JWP. (Regardless of the fact that not once has that ever led to a Saints goal). Any other reason? Goals and assists don't count? Defensive duties don't count?

After the first few lines of vitriol I couldn't be arsed to read on...all that from someone asking if someone else is insecure. Bless.