Saints 2-2 Burnley - Match Thread

[Billy the Kidd]

23 minutes ago, Baird of the land said:

I was just disappointed Adam Armstrong got so little time on the pitch with us drawing.

Yeah me too, couldn’t understand it, nd AA hasn’t exactly played badly when played.

[Billy the Kidd]

23 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I know playing full backs further up the park is sometimes just a lazy call from supporters & isn’t always a good move. But Tino is a young man and is he really a full back? I’ll be amazed if he plays out his career there, he’s got midfielder written all over him to me (maybe even central eventually). So why not try it, even if it’s a total fuck up, it can’t be any worse than Walcott. 

Yeah i get the full back piece, I’d be amazed if his career was exclusively there. He does remind me of Bale in the Championship.

I imagine SA will start over Theo soon, so that would mean 10’s of SA and TL, much better than Moi and Theo.

KWP must be fuming also, I would be, one of our players of the season last time out, and barely playing. I only hope he doesn’t start playing him at LB, we paid good money for one of those in the summer, so he needs a good run of games.

I’d also be pushing for AA in the line up, maybe ahead of Redmond.

[Hodgey]

I’ve just seen Redmonds miss - what is so scandalous about it is that he tries and use his right foot - stick your left foot out and it’s a goal, much easier than attempting it with your right. It’s unforgivable for a top level player to be unable to use both feet, favouring one is fine. What do our coaches do to stop this ? Same with Adams - he’d have double the goals if he had any faith in his left foot. They train every day, there is simply no excuse.

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I know playing full backs further up the park is sometimes just a lazy call from supporters & isn’t always a good move. But Tino is a young man and is he really a full back? I’ll be amazed if he plays out his career there, he’s got midfielder written all over him to me (maybe even central eventually). So why not try it, even if it’s a total fuck up, it can’t be any worse than Walcott. 

I agree, I've said as much since day one. We're not exactly blessed with quality in that 'Right mid/right 10' position, so let's stick KWP back in and put Tino in front. Lots of attacking purpose and lots of defensive cover there.

Tino did switch off defensively for the first goal yesterday, so he's still raw around the edges in that element. His game comes to life in an attacking sense...so play him further up, please!

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, Hodgey said:

I’ve just seen Redmonds miss - what is so scandalous about it is that he tries and use his right foot - stick your left foot out and it’s a goal, much easier than attempting it with your right. It’s unforgivable for a top level player to be unable to use both feet, favouring one is fine. What do our coaches do to stop this ? Same with Adams - he’d have double the goals if he had any faith in his left foot. They train every day, there is simply no excuse.

Just seen it myself, absolutely ridiculous miss. Walcotts was also awful, not to hit the target from 12 yards out in the middle of the goal is really poor. 

[S-Clarke]

Just now, Hodgey said:

I’ve just seen Redmonds miss - what is so scandalous about it is that he tries and use his right foot - stick your left foot out and it’s a goal, much easier than attempting it with your right. It’s unforgivable for a top level player to be unable to use both feet, favouring one is fine. What do our coaches do to stop this ? Same with Adams - he’d have double the goals if he had any faith in his left foot. They train every day, there is simply no excuse.

It's because he's brain dead, you can't coach the mental aspects - that's just part of them as a player.

He may have all the tools technically, and he does have the pace, the touch, the skill...but his mind is the problem, hence why his decision making at crucial moments during a high pressured situation is an absolute disaster. He'll always be one of those 'almost there' kind of players, but he'll never make it to the top or become mega consistent because of his lack of footballing brain.

[nta786]

34 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

It's because he's brain dead, you can't coach the mental aspects - that's just part of them as a player.

He may have all the tools technically, and he does have the pace, the touch, the skill...but his mind is the problem, hence why his decision making at crucial moments during a high pressured situation is an absolute disaster. He'll always be one of those 'almost there' kind of players, but he'll never make it to the top or become mega consistent because of his lack of footballing brain.

Agreed - and it's why he will be with us and not a top 4 team.

I bet Les Reed at the time had high hopes he would be our next big £50m/£60m sale when we bought him at the time but his decision making seriously lets him down

[ecuk268]

39 minutes ago, Hodgey said:

I’ve just seen Redmonds miss - what is so scandalous about it is that he tries and use his right foot - stick your left foot out and it’s a goal, much easier than attempting it with your right. It’s unforgivable for a top level player to be unable to use both feet, favouring one is fine. What do our coaches do to stop this ? Same with Adams - he’d have double the goals if he had any faith in his left foot. They train every day, there is simply no excuse.

Remember a story told by George Best.

 When he joined Man U he could only use his right foot. Matt Busby told him that, if he ever wanted to be top player, he needed to be two-footed.

So he spent hours and hours kicking ball against a wall and and controlling it with his left foot. In the end he reckoned that he was better with his left foot than with his right.

[Charlie Wayman]

We must accept that this is where we are with our current team and system, as good as Burnley but no better nor worse. It may be unpalatable to some but in itself that is nothing to be ashamed of. Many of our fans have assumed for years that we are superior to Burnley in style of football and quality of players, that Burnley are dour and a bunch of spoilers and little else. What we discovered yesterday is that nothing could be further from the truth.

This is a new style and much improved Burnley that can press and string passes together, defend brilliantly and play neat football as well and they certainly matched us for much of the game. To those who complain that this was two points loss to a poor team that we should have won, I would say neither of these teams are poor and both will finish up safely in lower mid-table.

In terms of the detail which everyone has covered already it is clear to me but not to Herr Hasenhüttl that Livramento is always knackered after 65 minutes and his effectiveness lost as was the case again yesterday. With a near world class RB on the bench who came close to being Saints Player of the Season last year why on earth doesn't Ralph freshen things up by using him?

My other question to Chino man is why are you not as patient and tolerant of Nathan Tella as you are with the two Chelsea imports. Start Nathan and give him a run of games in the PL and he too may develop into a class act? Just asking!

Poor Theo, I felt a bit sorry for him left out there to struggle on when clearly he was having a mare. Surely Stuart Armstrong will start at Watford

Edited 24 October, 2021 by Charlie Wayman

[Chapel End]

18 hours ago, Dark Munster said:

I think we all are bewildered. I wonder why he picks him......

I thought it was Redmond, I suppose it depends on the mood of the forum i suppose 

[Kermitzasaint]

Another two points dropped and the blame as usual is on Ralph. 

Baffling squad and substitutions again. Our squad isn't great but a decent coach would do better than this. 

Reading that Ralph wasn't unhappy with the result really sums it all up. 

He is absolutely clueless

[Fan The Flames]

Yeah Tino was knackered for the last 15 yesterday.

[CAH61]

Am I the only one that thought that it was a cracking match between fully committed two teams playing exciting attractive football? Two home wins in a row would've been nice and apart from two unbelievable misses we would've had the 3 points. Burnley played their full part and never just sat back which is what many predicted that they would do.

The only things that I am critical of Ralph is starting Theo ahead of either Stuey, Tella or Moussa and he should've hooked him off at H/T. He should've brought AA on much earlier too as I think he would be a natural to partner Broja. I actually thought that Redders had an effective match again apart from his glaring miss and Tino was probably MOTM although his defending was a bit naive for Burnley's first goal. Diallo looked good in the middle and played some good progressive passes moving forward and two goals in two games for Broja perhaps suggests that we might have our Ings replacement. 

Obviously the next 3 games are huge for us but I think that if we can replicate the performance of the last two games then we could see 5-7 points being accrued.

Edited 24 October, 2021 by CAH61

[Billy the Kidd]

6 minutes ago, CAH61 said:

Am I the only one that thought that it was a cracking match between fully committed two teams playing exciting attractive football? Two home wins in a row would've been nice and apart from two unbelievable misses we would've had the 3 points. Burnley played their full part and never just sat back which is what many predicted that they would do.

The only things that I am critical of Ralph is starting Theo ahead of either Stuey, Tella or Moussa and he should've hooked him off at H/T. He should've brought AA on much earlier too as I think he would be a natural to partner Broja. I actually thought that Redders had an effective match again apart from his glaring miss and Tino was probably MOTM although his defending was a bit naive for Burnley's first goal. Diallo looked good in the middle and played some good progressive passes moving forward and two goals in two games for Broja perhaps suggests that we might have our Ings replacement. 

Obviously the next 3 games are huge for us but I think that if we can replicate the performance of the last two games then we could see 5-7 points being accrued.

Not alone no.

I’ve been a little vocal today about Ralph, more in line with what you have said in your last paragraph, in that we need 1 win in 2 games, or 2 in 3. I’m not sure we will but desperately hope so. 

It was my first game of the season, and we did play ok, although I was surprised in the first 15 mins there was not the same intensity as there was v Leeds. 

Also agree about starters and subs, although I’m baffled why, after Moussa and Perraud played so well last week, why he then changed it and left Moussa out. Any ideas, was Moussa injured? I didn’t think so as he was on the bench and warming up loads, so why change the intensity down that side?

[Minsk]

33 minutes ago, CAH61 said:

Am I the only one that thought that it was a cracking match between fully committed two teams playing exciting attractive football? Two home wins in a row would've been nice and apart from two unbelievable misses we would've had the 3 points. Burnley played their full part and never just sat back which is what many predicted that they would do.

The only things that I am critical of Ralph is starting Theo ahead of either Stuey, Tella or Moussa and he should've hooked him off at H/T. He should've brought AA on much earlier too as I think he would be a natural to partner Broja. I actually thought that Redders had an effective match again apart from his glaring miss and Tino was probably MOTM although his defending was a bit naive for Burnley's first goal. Diallo looked good in the middle and played some good progressive passes moving forward and two goals in two games for Broja perhaps suggests that we might have our Ings replacement. 

Obviously the next 3 games are huge for us but I think that if we can replicate the performance of the last two games then we could see 5-7 points being accrued.

This matches my views exactly.

That starting 11 but with Arma replacing Theo would have been my pick. At half time I was really hoping Ralph would switch it to that. And kept calling for it to happen right up until Theo was withdrawn. Wasn't too disappointed it was for Stuey, but he did still look off the pace. Would like to see him start and get an hour under his belt in midweek. We can use 5 subs in that match so Ralph might be tempted.

[DT]

2 hours ago, ecuk268 said:

Remember a story told by George Best.

 When he joined Man U he could only use his right foot. Matt Busby told him that, if he ever wanted to be top player, he needed to be two-footed.

So he spent hours and hours kicking ball against a wall and and controlling it with his left foot. In the end he reckoned that he was better with his left foot than with his right.

we should try that with Redmond's head

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, CAH61 said:

Am I the only one that thought that it was a cracking match between fully committed two teams playing exciting attractive football? Two home wins in a row would've been nice and apart from two unbelievable misses we would've had the 3 points. Burnley played their full part and never just sat back which is what many predicted that they would do.

The only things that I am critical of Ralph is starting Theo ahead of either Stuey, Tella or Moussa and he should've hooked him off at H/T. He should've brought AA on much earlier too as I think he would be a natural to partner Broja. I actually thought that Redders had an effective match again apart from his glaring miss and Tino was probably MOTM although his defending was a bit naive for Burnley's first goal. Diallo looked good in the middle and played some good progressive passes moving forward and two goals in two games for Broja perhaps suggests that we might have our Ings replacement. 

Obviously the next 3 games are huge for us but I think that if we can replicate the performance of the last two games then we could see 5-7 points being accrued.

Not alone at all, that's how I saw it which is why I was fairly confused by the boos at FT? (what i heard anyway)

I wouldn't say Burnley were 'attractive', but it was a decent game. Burnley are no mugs, too many people were assuming this was a standard win - but there are a lot worse teams in this league than Burnley.

Edited 24 October, 2021 by S-Clarke

[Dorchester Saint]

6 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Not alone at all, that's how I saw it which is why I was fairly confused by the boos at FT? (what i heard anyway)

I wouldn't say Burnley were 'attractive', but it was a decent game. Burnley are no mugs, too many people were assuming this was a standard win - but there are a lot worse teams in this league than Burnley.

Agreed. It’s embarrassing how many posters on here were wetting their knickers and calling our players ‘cunts’ etc at 0-1 down. Absolute wet wipes the lot of them, but indicative of modern foot stamping me me need culture I guess. As you say, Burnley are no mugs and are notoriously difficult to beat. 

[Billy the Kidd]

14 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Not alone at all, that's how I saw it which is why I was fairly confused by the boos at FT? (what i heard anyway)

I wouldn't say Burnley were 'attractive', but it was a decent game. Burnley are no mugs, too many people were assuming this was a standard win - but there are a lot worse teams in this league than Burnley.

I’m not sure so many people thought this would be a standard win, I certainly didnt, but the issue presses more our run continues. And I’m talking 1 win in 9 this season, not even thinking about last season. That is unacceptable, which means we needed to be beating Burnley, which isn’t an expectation, it becomes a necessity as we simply aren’t winning enough games. 

Sure we can continue to carry on, but it makes the last half a season so much harder if this carries on, with or without Ralph.

[Billy the Kidd]

8 minutes ago, Dorchester Saint said:

Agreed. It’s embarrassing how many posters on here were wetting their knickers and calling our players ‘cunts’ etc at 0-1 down. Absolute wet wipes the lot of them, but indicative of modern foot stamping me me need culture I guess. As you say, Burnley are no mugs and are notoriously difficult to beat. 

Not sure ive seen anyone wetting knickers or calling anyone a c*nt.

Indictative of the modern day ‘offended by anything, so I will make stuff up’ culture, I guess.

People have a right to complain and say things as they see it, doesn’t mean they’re foot stamping - I mean are you happy with one win in nine, or 6 wins in 31 going back to Jan 21?

[Saint Billy]

3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I agree, I've said as much since day one. We're not exactly blessed with quality in that 'Right mid/right 10' position, so let's stick KWP back in and put Tino in front. Lots of attacking purpose and lots of defensive cover there.

Tino did switch off defensively for the first goal yesterday, so he's still raw around the edges in that element. His game comes to life in an attacking sense...so play him further up, please!

It is and has been so bloody obvious to all of us except Ralph for some reason. I don't get it as it would massively strengthen us.

If it goes on like this KWP will want out and who can blame him. 

[Minsk]

9 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Not sure ive seen anyone wetting knickers or calling anyone a c*nt.

 

Page 5 of this thread.....

[Dorchester Saint]

20 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Not sure ive seen anyone wetting knickers or calling anyone a c*nt.

Indictative of the modern day ‘offended by anything, so I will make stuff up’ culture, I guess.

People have a right to complain and say things as they see it, doesn’t mean they’re foot stamping - I mean are you happy with one win in nine, or 6 wins in 31 going back to Jan 21?

Check back in this very match thread….plenty of knicker wetting and Redmond was branded a ‘Cunt’ for apparently laughing that he missed a chance….as for our results, not entirely happy, but on paper hardly a disaster, in fact when you compare result for result next to last season, the improvement is obvious to most. 

Edited 24 October, 2021 by Dorchester Saint

[Billy the Kidd]

11 minutes ago, Minsk said:

Page 5 of this thread.....

Ok, didnt read back that far as was at the game.

So, 1 person used that term. Hardly endemic is it.

I agree people do knee jerk during the game, I dont usually post when the game is on, maybe half time and after, as i prefer to watch the actual game. But that is natural for people to spout off during the 90 mins.

My point was more about after the match, i think people have been pretty level headed, not really wetting beds.

[Billy the Kidd]

2 minutes ago, Dorchester Saint said:

Check back in this very match thread….plenty of knicker wetting and Redmond was branded a ‘Cunt’ for apparently laughing that he missed a chance….

Yeah, get that, see my reply above to Minsk, people always spout during the game, i tend to take those posts with a pinch of salt, it is the ones after the whistle I prefer reading and engaging with.

[Roo1976]

6 hours ago, Snopper said:

I agree.  That miss was of itself incredulous and deserves criticism.  I think my main grumble on here is that it would be more acceptable to read constructive criticism than the personal abuse towards our players.  But maybe each `struggling` team needs a scapegoat or two.

We have more than 2,and they keep getting selected over IMO fresher more enthusiastic players who last season were playing, i.e Tella. Surely hes got to be given game time and gain experience ahead of Walcott even Long for crying out loud. A.Armstrong should have come on before injured Che Adams and again it would have been game time,or indeed played from the start and maybe just maybe that MISS from Redmond might have found Armstrong and just maybe he might have scored whos to know? But Ralph seems so blinkered as to not even play KWP these days,or even A.Armstrong. These players especially Armstrong need to be wanted and trusted,and i think will come good but they need to be involved not coming on in the 89th minute with 4 minutes of added on time left, still i suppose they will get their chance away to Chelsea in the cup mid week.  Moan over points tried to be made but ....................................................

[Billy the Kidd]

8 hours ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Why get personal about my knowledge of football - does it make you feel better if you have more knowledge than other people? That is a bit of a prickish thing to say, but says more about you than me.

I was at the game yesterday, and we played ok, and yes, could have won. But we didnt. yet again. If you are happy to keep drawing or losing, again, says more about you than me.

And again, Ralph was dodgy with his initial team selection, and subs. Ive said repeatedly I wouldn’t sack Ralph, yet. But fail to win 2 of the next 3 I will be hoping he does, as 1 win in 11 in inexcusable, regardless to our improvement on the lowest base in footballing form from Jan-May 21.

@John B - What’s up John, haven’t heard back from you - you been reading this 😂

[captainchris]

4 hours ago, Hodgey said:

I’ve just seen Redmonds miss - what is so scandalous about it is that he tries and use his right foot - stick your left foot out and it’s a goal, much easier than attempting it with your right. It’s unforgivable for a top level player to be unable to use both feet, favouring one is fine. What do our coaches do to stop this ? Same with Adams - he’d have double the goals if he had any faith in his left foot. They train every day, there is simply no excuse.

Been saying this for a long time. Not being able to use both feet as a professional at any level let alone Premier League is unforgivable. You should not be available for selection until you can do this simple task. 

[Teddeer]

3 hours ago, Saint Billy said:

It is and has been so bloody obvious to all of us except Ralph for some reason. I don't get it as it would massively strengthen us.

If it goes on like this KWP will want out and who can blame him. 

I think Ralph has painted himself into a corner. He seems one of the few who don't see the benefits of a KWP/Tino partnership on the right but if he tries it now and it works a dream he makes himself look a complete incompetent.

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, captainchris said:

Been saying this for a long time. Not being able to use both feet as a professional at any level let alone Premier League is unforgivable. You should not be available for selection until you can do this simple task. 

George Best once had a bet with someone that he could go right through a game using only his left foot. He did, and he scored a goal with it.

[Lord Duckhunter]

29 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

George Best once had a bet with someone that he could go right through a game using only his left foot. He did, and he scored a goal with it.

Nathan Redmond must have a bet every fucking week that he’ll only use his right foot. 

[JRM]

4 hours ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Not sure ive seen anyone wetting knickers or calling anyone a c*nt.

Indictative of the modern day ‘offended by anything, so I will make stuff up’ culture, I guess.

People have a right to complain and say things as they see it, doesn’t mean they’re foot stamping - I mean are you happy with one win in nine, or 6 wins in 31 going back to Jan 21?

Bloke behind me spent whole game calling Walcott a c*nt or "that's fucking shit walcott" and seemed to have a tantrum everytime we gave the ball away so it's not just on here 

[Billy the Kidd]

19 minutes ago, JRM said:

Bloke behind me spent whole game calling Walcott a c*nt or "that's fucking shit walcott" and seemed to have a tantrum everytime we gave the ball away so it's not just on here 

True. 2 people have now been confirmed as calling Theo a cunt.

More rife than COVID this player bashing. 

[Minsk]

On 04/10/2021 at 14:43, Minsk said:

Exactly this. He was bought as a very promising RB, who had never yet made a full professional appearance. Ralph showed his trust and threw him in for the first match. Tino did so well Ralph had to continue to pick him. Tino has continued to play so well that he has earned rave reviews. Yet instead of praising Ralph for being brave enough to play him and keep picking him the usual suspects have their knives out for not playing him in a totally different position - a whole 7 matches into the season, which are the only 7 matches he has ever played as a senior professional.

I understand he has played in midfield for Chelsea U23. That is a totally different thing to playing there in the prem. Maybe he would be good there. Maybe he will end up being an attacker. But maybe, for now, he is best served by letting him get his feet under the table in the Premier League as a right back; his most natural position (thus far) and the one he was signed to play.

I wonder, to all those of you who are aghast that he hasn't been played further forward yet, which matches should Livramento have been played as a 10 instead of a RB? Away at the current league champions? Away at the current European champions? Maybe his 2nd senior match ever, at home to Utd? Of course, they will point to Wolves. A match we had more possession in, 3.5 times more shots in, double the number of shots on target (including a good one by Tino, while playing at RB) and one we lost due to a mistake by Bednarek, as well as a lack of converting those chances created. I know one thing for sure, had Ralph played Tino as a 10 in that match, and the result was the same 1-0 defeat, he would have been berated for doing so by the same people currently lambasting him for not trying it now....

He has only played 7 senior matches in his life for crying out loud! To be honest I do think it would be interesting to see how he would get on as a RM/AM. That said, I understand why it hasn't happened yet and why he is unlikely to be picked in that position in the foreseeable. As we all know, we need to start getting wins and picking up points. That means playing your best players in their best positions, not taking one out of his to 'try him elsewhere just to see how he gets on'. Experiments like that are for friendlies or, at best/worst (depending on viewpoint), when forced to shift players around due to injuries sustained mid-match - but with 9 subs on the bench nowadays that should never be an issue anyway.

Oh, and as for those complaining about Ralph playing KWP at LB - I'm sure even the footballing God that is Pochettino (according to many on here) also played him at LB. I also think he had 2 very good matches in that position for us, away at City and Chelsea.

 

2 hours ago, Teddeer said:

I think Ralph has painted himself into a corner. He seems one of the few who don't see the benefits of a KWP/Tino partnership on the right but if he tries it now and it works a dream he makes himself look a complete incompetent.

The quoted post of mine above is one I posted on the Livramento thread a few weeks ago. No one has bothered responding to it. Maybe you will, on here? In short, it asks which matches Ralph should have 'experimented' with Tino at RM and KWP at RB (obviously, therefore, with Perraud at LB). We have, of course, played 2 more matches since the original question was posed. 1 won; drew 1. Can you guarantee we wouldn't have lost either without Tino at RB? (Yes, I know he was at fault for their first goal yesterday, but he was also MoM for most - playing at RB.) Further to that, may I ask - if Ralph does this against Watford and we lose will you (and this is open to all) happily accept that defeat as at least he tried the idea you have been wanting him to try?

As an aside, I think it was you who said that Ralph should have put Broja in the starting 11 from the first match of the season. Apologies if not. However, if so, had Ralph painted himself into a corner over not starting him then? That would have also been after 7 matches, the same as the above quote. Or, more likely, was Ralph manager a young player, giving him game time and when, until he felt that player was ready to start? Similarly, why are you so certain that Ralph hasn't thought about playing at RM, with KWP at RB? Just because he hasn't done so in a match doesn't mean he hasn't thought about it; or even tried it in training. Or, just maybe, as with Broja, he is man-managing Tino. Playing him in his most natural position, in the hardest league in the world, without 'experimenting' with him elsewhere before he has even racked up double figures in appearances! 

[Hayling Saint]

42 minutes ago, Minsk said:

 

The quoted post of mine above is one I posted on the Livramento thread a few weeks ago. No one has bothered responding to it. Maybe you will, on here? In short, it asks which matches Ralph should have 'experimented' with Tino at RM and KWP at RB (obviously, therefore, with Perraud at LB). We have, of course, played 2 more matches since the original question was posed. 1 won; drew 1. Can you guarantee we wouldn't have lost either without Tino at RB? (Yes, I know he was at fault for their first goal yesterday, but he was also MoM for most - playing at RB.) Further to that, may I ask - if Ralph does this against Watford and we lose will you (and this is open to all) happily accept that defeat as at least he tried the idea you have been wanting him to try?

As an aside, I think it was you who said that Ralph should have put Broja in the starting 11 from the first match of the season. Apologies if not. However, if so, had Ralph painted himself into a corner over not starting him then? That would have also been after 7 matches, the same as the above quote. Or, more likely, was Ralph manager a young player, giving him game time and when, until he felt that player was ready to start? Similarly, why are you so certain that Ralph hasn't thought about playing at RM, with KWP at RB? Just because he hasn't done so in a match doesn't mean he hasn't thought about it; or even tried it in training. Or, just maybe, as with Broja, he is man-managing Tino. Playing him in his most natural position, in the hardest league in the world, without 'experimenting' with him elsewhere before he has even racked up double figures in appearances! 

totally agree with this

[Give it to Ron]

8 hours ago, Minsk said:

 

The quoted post of mine above is one I posted on the Livramento thread a few weeks ago. No one has bothered responding to it. Maybe you will, on here? In short, it asks which matches Ralph should have 'experimented' with Tino at RM and KWP at RB (obviously, therefore, with Perraud at LB). We have, of course, played 2 more matches since the original question was posed. 1 won; drew 1. Can you guarantee we wouldn't have lost either without Tino at RB? (Yes, I know he was at fault for their first goal yesterday, but he was also MoM for most - playing at RB.) Further to that, may I ask - if Ralph does this against Watford and we lose will you (and this is open to all) happily accept that defeat as at least he tried the idea you have been wanting him to try?

As an aside, I think it was you who said that Ralph should have put Broja in the starting 11 from the first match of the season. Apologies if not. However, if so, had Ralph painted himself into a corner over not starting him then? That would have also been after 7 matches, the same as the above quote. Or, more likely, was Ralph manager a young player, giving him game time and when, until he felt that player was ready to start? Similarly, why are you so certain that Ralph hasn't thought about playing at RM, with KWP at RB? Just because he hasn't done so in a match doesn't mean he hasn't thought about it; or even tried it in training. Or, just maybe, as with Broja, he is man-managing Tino. Playing him in his most natural position, in the hardest league in the world, without 'experimenting' with him elsewhere before he has even racked up double figures in appearances! 

Could Tino or KWP be any worse than Theo on Saturday in that position? 
Leaving him on for so long was a match for bringing on Shane Long the other week.

[david in sweden]

17 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

We must accept that this is where we are with our current team and system, as good as Burnley but no better nor worse. It may be unpalatable to some but in itself that is nothing to be ashamed of. Many of our fans have assumed for years that we are superior to Burnley in style of football and quality of players, that Burnley are dour and a bunch of spoilers and little else. What we discovered yesterday is that nothing could be further from the truth.

This is a new style and much improved Burnley that can press and string passes together, defend brilliantly and play neat football as well and they certainly matched us for much of the game. To those who complain that this was two points loss to a poor team that we should have won, I would say neither of these teams are poor and both will finish up safely in lower mid-table.

In terms of the detail which everyone has covered already it is clear to me but not to Herr Hasenhüttl that Livramento is always knackered after 65 minutes and his effectiveness lost as was the case again yesterday. With a near world class RB on the bench who came close to being Saints Player of the Season last year why on earth doesn't Ralph freshen things up by using him?

My other question to Chino man is why are you not as patient and tolerant of Nathan Tella as you are with the two Chelsea imports. Start Nathan and give him a run of games in the PL and he too may develop into a class act? Just asking!

Poor Theo, I felt a bit sorry for him left out there to struggle on when clearly he was having a mare. Surely Stuart Armstrong will start at Watford

Agree with most of this - especially the paragraph about Livramento (and even put Broja in that category).

At the end of last season, both had scarcely got onto the bench in Chelsea first team games, but were stars in their U23 side

that ran rampant in some of their fixtures.  Now they are in " the big boys league ", the pace and skills required are (not unsurprisingly )

proving a challenge for them.  

Unfortunately the rest of our squad are still sadly wanting.  Our defensive record  is actually better than most of the bottom-half teams,

but in the last  3 home games we have had 53 shots (!)... and secured just 3 goals and dropped 5 home points. 

Without these two lads, we would look even more insipid than we did at times last season. 

[Toussaint]

12 hours ago, Minsk said:

 

The quoted post of mine above is one I posted on the Livramento thread a few weeks ago. No one has bothered responding to it. Maybe you will, on here? In short, it asks which matches Ralph should have 'experimented' with Tino at RM and KWP at RB (obviously, therefore, with Perraud at LB). We have, of course, played 2 more matches since the original question was posed. 1 won; drew 1. Can you guarantee we wouldn't have lost either without Tino at RB? (Yes, I know he was at fault for their first goal yesterday, but he was also MoM for most - playing at RB.) Further to that, may I ask - if Ralph does this against Watford and we lose will you (and this is open to all) happily accept that defeat as at least he tried the idea you have been wanting him to try?

As an aside, I think it was you who said that Ralph should have put Broja in the starting 11 from the first match of the season. Apologies if not. However, if so, had Ralph painted himself into a corner over not starting him then? That would have also been after 7 matches, the same as the above quote. Or, more likely, was Ralph manager a young player, giving him game time and when, until he felt that player was ready to start? Similarly, why are you so certain that Ralph hasn't thought about playing at RM, with KWP at RB? Just because he hasn't done so in a match doesn't mean he hasn't thought about it; or even tried it in training. Or, just maybe, as with Broja, he is man-managing Tino. Playing him in his most natural position, in the hardest league in the world, without 'experimenting' with him elsewhere before he has even racked up double figures in appearances! 

In sort of answer to your hypothetical question, no one can be certain that the outcomes would be different with the scenarios that you refer to. I'm still fuming with Ralph for the selection and game plan V Wolves, I feel that was three points for the taking.  I also feel strongly we threw away 2 points on Saturday, we had our strongest bench in years, but somehow Theo not only gets picked, is predictably woeful, but manages to stay on for 75 minutes. I would hypothesise that had KWP not played at LB against Wolves and any number of options had been played ahead of Walcott Saturday  we would be 5 points better off than we are now. So, as someone says below, Tino midfield with KWP behind him would surely have made a difference Saturday?   Someone said in Saturday's match thread that there are 5 worse teams in the league than us, I'm struggling to think of anyone other than Norwich who are definitely worse than us, the rest are around our level, which is precisely why we should be picking up 3 points at home against them.

On a slight tangent, I heard Dan Sheldon, on TSP today, say the only reason Theo was hooked on Saturday was to counter a Burnley tactical change, bewildering. 

[saintstowin]

My first game since Palace December 2019 and the 3 generations in our group really enjoyed it. Also very poignant as the first game in attendance since my Dad passed and he is the reason we now have all those generations of Saints fans. Like some on here I too felt it was a very entertaining match and it is interesting comparing comments on here to how I felt watching it at those same moments. The last 15 minutes of the first half (despite the missed chances) felt like the end of a match as we swept forward, that was when there's no substitute for being there and getting caught up in the atmosphere even when we couldn't hit the backsides of several cows with our banjos. It's true we really had to earn our goals whereas Burnley didn't. But I have seen us huff and puff a lot more without an end product than was the case on Saturday. We have goals in us but haven't found the right combination yet - we were more dynamic than I thought we'd be. I know Redmond was up there, but for Broja to take on their centre backs was great to see from one so young. Livramento looks more than the part. We did ok but I agree (and said at the game) that a change after 2-1 was much too slow in coming especially with great options off the bench. I reckon Tella would have caused them some problems. I loved Diallo's immediate pass from their error for Broja's goal too. Great to be back!

[Teddeer]

14 hours ago, Minsk said:

 

The quoted post of mine above is one I posted on the Livramento thread a few weeks ago. No one has bothered responding to it. Maybe you will, on here? In short, it asks which matches Ralph should have 'experimented' with Tino at RM and KWP at RB (obviously, therefore, with Perraud at LB). We have, of course, played 2 more matches since the original question was posed. 1 won; drew 1. Can you guarantee we wouldn't have lost either without Tino at RB? (Yes, I know he was at fault for their first goal yesterday, but he was also MoM for most - playing at RB.) Further to that, may I ask - if Ralph does this against Watford and we lose will you (and this is open to all) happily accept that defeat as at least he tried the idea you have been wanting him to try?

As an aside, I think it was you who said that Ralph should have put Broja in the starting 11 from the first match of the season. Apologies if not. However, if so, had Ralph painted himself into a corner over not starting him then? That would have also been after 7 matches, the same as the above quote. Or, more likely, was Ralph manager a young player, giving him game time and when, until he felt that player was ready to start? Similarly, why are you so certain that Ralph hasn't thought about playing at RM, with KWP at RB? Just because he hasn't done so in a match doesn't mean he hasn't thought about it; or even tried it in training. Or, just maybe, as with Broja, he is man-managing Tino. Playing him in his most natural position, in the hardest league in the world, without 'experimenting' with him elsewhere before he has even racked up double figures in appearances! 

All this guff about Ralph man managing Broja! I get that he was never going to play him in the first match of the season but he is clearly the best striker at the club so, in my opinion, Ralph 'man managing' him for a few games would have had little affect and is not the reason that Broja has scored two in two starts. A good manager knows his best players and starts them. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

15 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

All this guff about Ralph man managing Broja! I get that he was never going to play him in the first match of the season but he is clearly the best striker at the club so, in my opinion, Ralph 'man managing' him for a few games would have had little affect and is not the reason that Broja has scored two in two starts. A good manager knows his best players and starts them. 

This is the latest in a long line of pony spouted by the Ralph apologist, that somehow he knew the exact moment to play    Broja and that’s why he now looks the part. The truth is a bit simpler than that, the player Ralph did pick, the one he thought was  our best striker wasn’t  doing it. Coupled with Che’s injury,he picked the next striker off the rank, Broja. Lots of managers stubble upon their best side, but I’ve never seen it portrayed as a great management before. But then we haven’t seen the Cult of Ralph before. When he eventually plays Tino and KWP down the right, the cult will proclaim that as proof of his visionary approach and getting the timing spot on again. Hail to King Ralph…. 

[Whitey Grandad]

29 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

All this guff about Ralph man managing Broja! I get that he was never going to play him in the first match of the season but he is clearly the best striker at the club so, in my opinion, Ralph 'man managing' him for a few games would have had little affect and is not the reason that Broja has scored two in two starts. A good manager knows his best players and starts them. 

I seem to remember reading that he wasn't fit enough when he first joined and some of the senior players pointed this out to him. 

[John Boy Saint]

24 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I seem to remember reading that he wasn't fit enough when he first joined and some of the senior players pointed this out to him. 

Ah that old Chestnut

 

[Minsk]

7 hours ago, Give it to Ron said:

Could Tino or KWP be any worse than Theo on Saturday in that position? 
Leaving him on for so long was a match for bringing on Shane Long the other week.

I agree that Theo shouldn't have started or stayed on for so long. Never said otherwise. Yes, either of them might have done better. Heck, Valery would have probably done better. I get that people want to see Tino further forward. I understand the comparison to Bale. Bale played a full season in the Championship at LB. He then spent around 3 years at Spurs, in and around the first team at times but when played was as a LB. Had a few injuries too. But it wasn't until dear old Harry was manager there in 2010/11 that he was given a go at LM/LW.

I will ask again, if Ralph plays Tino at RM against Watford and we lose will you be happy with the result because he experimented with a young player out of position? Or do you think we will have a raft of 'why did Ralph put a square peg in a round hole, again' type posts? I just can't help but think there are many on here who just want to slate Ralph no matter what he does. (Not saying you are one).

[Minsk]

3 hours ago, Toussaint said:

In sort of answer to your hypothetical question, no one can be certain that the outcomes would be different with the scenarios that you refer to. I'm still fuming with Ralph for the selection and game plan V Wolves, I feel that was three points for the taking.  I also feel strongly we threw away 2 points on Saturday, we had our strongest bench in years, but somehow Theo not only gets picked, is predictably woeful, but manages to stay on for 75 minutes. I would hypothesise that had KWP not played at LB against Wolves and any number of options had been played ahead of Walcott Saturday  we would be 5 points better off than we are now. So, as someone says below, Tino midfield with KWP behind him would surely have made a difference Saturday?   Someone said in Saturday's match thread that there are 5 worse teams in the league than us, I'm struggling to think of anyone other than Norwich who are definitely worse than us, the rest are around our level, which is precisely why we should be picking up 3 points at home against them.

On a slight tangent, I heard Dan Sheldon, on TSP today, say the only reason Theo was hooked on Saturday was to counter a Burnley tactical change, bewildering. 

I agree that KWP had a very poor match against Wolves. He did, however, have very good matches at LB against City and Chelsea. So whilst I don't really blame Ralph for playing him initially, he should have replaced him when it was clear he was having a mare.

I also agree that Theo shouldn't have started Saturday and, having done so, should have been hooked at HT when it was clear he was having a mare.

In either scenario we may have gone on to win. We might not have. However, I really don't feel the overwhelming need for Ralph to experiment with putting a young player who has yet to reach double figures in senior appearances out of his normal position. See my response above, and maybe answer the question. I'm intrigued to know how many people really do want Ralph to experiment with players out of position and will accept a defeat if he does. Because I see dozens of comments on most match threads complaining about him playing people out of their normal position...... 

[Minsk]

1 hour ago, Teddeer said:

All this guff about Ralph man managing Broja! I get that he was never going to play him in the first match of the season but he is clearly the best striker at the club so, in my opinion, Ralph 'man managing' him for a few games would have had little affect and is not the reason that Broja has scored two in two starts. A good manager knows his best players and starts them. 

It isn't 'guff' at all. It is what happens with most young players. How many times did you watch Broja play for Vitesse last season? How many times did you watch Tino play for Chelsea U23 last season? Must have been loads because you know so much more about them than their actual professional manger who gets to see them train day in day out. Or maybe you're just talking bollocks?

P.S. You seem to have failed to have answered any of many questions posed. I wonder why.........

[Whitey Grandad]

32 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

Ah that old Chestnut

 

Amazing! That's exactly what they called him.

[Toussaint]

6 minutes ago, Minsk said:

I agree that KWP had a very poor match against Wolves. He did, however, have very good matches at LB against City and Chelsea. So whilst I don't really blame Ralph for playing him initially, he should have replaced him when it was clear he was having a mare.

I also agree that Theo shouldn't have started Saturday and, having done so, should have been hooked at HT when it was clear he was having a mare.

In either scenario we may have gone on to win. We might not have. However, I really don't feel the overwhelming need for Ralph to experiment with putting a young player who has yet to reach double figures in senior appearances out of his normal position. See my response above, and maybe answer the question. I'm intrigued to know how many people really do want Ralph to experiment with players out of position and will accept a defeat if he does. Because I see dozens of comments on most match threads complaining about him playing people out of their normal position...... 

I have no idea, but trying a very pacey, attack minded, skillful RB as RM doesn't feel too much of a stretch to me. Ralph does have a history of playing players out of position, but more square pegs in round holes rather than in this instance taking the calculated risk of putting Tino further forward, which could easily be re shuffled if it wasn't working. I am not hung up on Tino playing mid, it would be good to see him and KWP on together, I am more concerned regarding his sentimental attachment to Walcott and at times Redmond. 

[Minsk]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

This is the latest in a long line of pony spouted by the Ralph apologist, that somehow he knew the exact moment to play    Broja and that’s why he now looks the part. The truth is a bit simpler than that, the player Ralph did pick, the one he thought was  our best striker wasn’t  doing it. Coupled with Che’s injury,he picked the next striker off the rank, Broja. Lots of managers stubble upon their best side, but I’ve never seen it portrayed as a great management before. But then we haven’t seen the Cult of Ralph before. When he eventually plays Tino and KWP down the right, the cult will proclaim that as proof of his visionary approach and getting the timing spot on again. Hail to King Ralph…. 

As usual, you have twisted and put your own interpretation on my words, whilst trying to belittle me for having a different opinion to yourself. I noticed on another thread you refer to anyone who doesn't want Ralph sacked immediately as 'one eyes'. Referring to other posters, who dare have a different view to yourself, in such ways just go to show that you are a bigger prick than all the other posters on here together. You also always fail to engage in any real debate or answer any direction questions posed. Undoubtedly because you lack the intelligence to do so. As such please excuse for ignoring the bollocks that you spam every fucking thread with. Bye, Bye, Dicky.

[Minsk]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I seem to remember reading that he wasn't fit enough when he first joined and some of the senior players pointed this out to him. 

Yep. Broja even admitted in his post match interview after the Leeds game that he hadn't been pulling his weight in training, and was reprimanded by some senior players for it. But hey, Tedder has watched every match he has ever played in and knows everything managing young footballers. Be interesting to know which professional teams he has coached/managed. Must be loads.