Chelsea 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[StrangelyBrown]

5 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

I have to disagree on this point.  After we equalised I felt we were the team most likely to go on and win the game.  Sure we weren't making buckets off chances but we had the momentum and they looked to have run out of ideas.  Their crowd was very restless and the energy in their team was not there.  It was only after the sending off that this changed.  

On VAR, having now seen it on a screen, I think VAR should not have ruled on either their disallowed Werner goal or JWP's tackle.  What I liked about VAR in the Euro's was they took a quick look at things and only investigated if there was a clear and obvious error.  So decisions were much quicker because the only ones they spent any time on where clearly a mistake.  In both cases yesterday the decision was marginal.  Reading the thread here we still can't all agree on whether JWP's was a yellow or red.  So there was no clear and obvious error.  Similarly for the Werner disallowed goal it took ages, and that is because it's not clearly a foul; yes it might be, but no clear and obvious error by the on-field team who had a close and clear view.  So they need to reset VAR in the minds of the Stockley users to only focus on stuff that's clear and obvious.

Actually, yesterday we benefitted from this because if they had applied what I'm saying we would have gone 2-0 down and that would have been hard to come back from, and we could have been overwhelmed.  

And I do wonder about Mike Dean's ego.  It seems like he has to feel involved and important, and so in the grounds we could all feel his presence yesterday.  It's almost like he enjoyed keeping us all waiting so long and then directed Atkinson to the screen like a puppet-master. 

It was definitely a red, jwp went in with both feet and wasn't in control. It was a really stupid tackle.

The VAR decision that deserves attention is the disallowed goal. We would have been fuming had that happened to us. KWP was barely touched and the foul wasnt part of the phase of play that led to the goal.

We got what we deserved - nothing.

The third goal highlighted a lot of what is wrong with McCarthy - his positioning was appalling, he didnt react to  the first 2 shots and then only got hands to the goal because it was straight at him and even then he was too weak to stop it.

I'm not sure who is at fault for our current predicament - hassenhutl has a lot to answer for, but our recruitment team have managed to put together a squad with absolutely no goalscorers...

[Micky]

Not too fussed with the score, pretty much what was expected.  The game was more about performance, and in general we got that.  Losing JWP for the next three is a big loss though,  stand by for lots of floaty ineffective corners.   Armstrong and Adams need to start firing and finding the back of the net soon. 

[John B]

11 minutes ago, Micky said:

   Armstrong and Adams need to start firing and finding the back of the net soon. 

That is the key but at the moment I have little confidence that they will score many goals in the PL lets hope they do

[Lord Duckhunter]

9 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

If Atkinson had given the red straight away I wouldn’t have complained 

You would have moaned like fuck. 

[Teddeer]

2 hours ago, JRM said:

Exactly, Dean goes beyond his duty like a back seat driver wanting to make every decision,  he's frustrated stuck in a box watching the tele not getting any attention and wants to take control. 

The yellow card was not a clear and obvious error. 

Dean is a narcissist. 

You're right but it goes further in that Dean clearly has an agenda against us and goes out of his way to use his powers to punish us in a biased manner.

[Pamplemousse]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

You're right but it goes further in that Dean clearly has an agenda against us and goes out of his way to use his powers to punish us in a biased manner.

He doesn't, he just gets involved far too much for a VAR. He needs to rein it in.

[Teddeer]

1 hour ago, Sarnia Cherie said:

Martin Atkinson got it wrong, not Mike Dean. We were holding our own up to that point but once JWP got his marching orders it all fell apart. I am still concerned about where our goals are coming from. Apart from Villa, we have a run of games coming up against teams around us that we must win or draw at the very least. If we are still sitting in 17th place with no goals scored after those matches, we have a big problem.

Draws against those teams around us are next to useless. We need wins against them so that we are gaining 3 points over them not staying level. This is particularly the case for home matches.

[Teddeer]

5 minutes ago, Pamplemousse said:

He doesn't, he just gets involved far too much for a VAR. He needs to rein it in.

You don't believe Dean has an agenda against us!

[Micky]

55 minutes ago, John B said:

That is the key but at the moment I have little confidence that they will score many goals in the PL lets hope they do

Unfortunately we are slow, ponderous and devoid of creativity in the final third so they are feeding on scraps.  They are a championship strike force trying to step up a level,  we desperately miss the guile, craft,  finishing and workrate of Danny Ings.  Hopefully when  Stuart Armstrong is back, we create more and they gain a little bit of confidence in front of goal. 

[Dr Who?]

17 hours ago, OttawaSaint said:

Wow, what a save by McCarthy!

 

17 hours ago, Chez said:

what. a. save.

 

17 hours ago, Saints foreva said:

What a fucking save

 

17 hours ago, HarvSFC said:

McCarthy’s having a great game.

All a good height for a save surely? 😉 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You would have moaned like fuck. 

Don’t be such a prick. You don’t have the faintest idea as to how I would have reacted. When I said that I would not have complained, that is my position on this matter. I am a traditional Englishman and my word is my bond.

I very strongly resent your personal attacks on me. 

[david in sweden]

The red card incident was similar to Bertrand's sending off in the 0-9  Leicester game  in that - played in pouring rain -

the effect of an ill-timed / clumsy tackle become exaggerated, and this one looked even worse in slow motion. 

Clearly the pitch was heavy with water and several players were seen lost their footing during the game.

 

The nicest that could be said was the tackle was " clumsy and ill-advised " . Yes,  it was a foul and deserved a yellow card.

(but as captain Prowsie  needed to show up and be seen)  in comparison to several bad Chelsea tackles which had gone unpunished,  

but a yellow was justified, but the  slo-mo  review made it look really bad and for his part Jorgegino reacted in " typical Latin manner ".  

It  is the challenge that should be analysed  and not  the " player's reaction "  to it, and this didn't help either. 

(Wolves had a field day last week, with half the side going down for prolonged periods in order to slow down the pace of the game).

 

With Atkinson having already shown a yellow card  VAR referee Dean " forced "  Atkinson to review the situation, and Atkinson in turn would 

have looked stupid in denying it  and would have damaged Dean's " credibility " even more.   

I've always been a supporter of VAR , (and to be fair without VAR we would have lost by a much larger margin), but the such incidents

should be reviewed in  " real time "   as whilst showing more detail, slow motion often appears to make everything seem a whole lot worse. 

(The "real time" version over Kyle Walker's challenge on Armstrong in the Man. City game left little doubt over the penalty decision). 

[david in sweden]

16 hours ago, Shroppie said:

How can Rugby, cricket and hockey do it so well (albeit in different ways) but football do it so abysmally? 

To answer my own question, because they can't accept that other sports have developed systems that work and it would be good to draw on their experience. No, football is far too important and must set its own rules, even though they're a complete clusterfuck.

Scoring a Goal in the Prem. (or taking a wicket in a Test match)  is cause for celebration, but many refs. who have rarely had experience of playing the game

at the highest level and obviously do not understand the adrenalin kick that surely accompanies such feats.  With thousands of fans celebrating the goal

from their seats...Are players expected to just smile, wave to the crowd and await some back-slapping congratulations from their team mates. Obviously not.

 

Having watched cricket for over 60 years , I enjoy the added celebrations of that accompany modern day matches, remembering a more sober time when 

completing a good innings, or taking a wicket was followed by polite crowd applause, and a quiet murmur of  " well-played Sir "  and pat on the back.

 

Agreed some celebratory performances are clearly a bit  " over the top " and perhaps deserve a yellow card, but refs. must learn to give a little leeway to

such events  in matches that are often sadly bereft of goal action.  

[whelk]

2 hours ago, Teddeer said:

You don't believe Dean has an agenda against us!

It is quite funny you do

[redder freak]

13 hours ago, obelisk said:

Looking at Chelsea's first goal Saints had 11 players defending in the penalty area but still left a free header at the far post by a Chelsea defender. Armstrong standing in the "D" marking nobody would have been be better placed standing on the halfway line occupying some defenders there while also being available for a quick break.

Why is there no one on the back post?

[Fan The Flames]

3 hours ago, The Left Back said:

I have to disagree on this point.  After we equalised I felt we were the team most likely to go on and win the game.  Sure we weren't making buckets off chances but we had the momentum and they looked to have run out of ideas.  Their crowd was very restless and the energy in their team was not there.  It was only after the sending off that this changed.  

On VAR, having now seen it on a screen, I think VAR should not have ruled on either their disallowed Werner goal or JWP's tackle.  What I liked about VAR in the Euro's was they took a quick look at things and only investigated if there was a clear and obvious error.  So decisions were much quicker because the only ones they spent any time on where clearly a mistake.  In both cases yesterday the decision was marginal.  Reading the thread here we still can't all agree on whether JWP's was a yellow or red.  So there was no clear and obvious error.  Similarly for the Werner disallowed goal it took ages, and that is because it's not clearly a foul; yes it might be, but no clear and obvious error by the on-field team who had a close and clear view.  So they need to reset VAR in the minds of the Stockley users to only focus on stuff that's clear and obvious.

Actually, yesterday we benefitted from this because if they had applied what I'm saying we would have gone 2-0 down and that would have been hard to come back from, and we could have been overwhelmed.  

And I do wonder about Mike Dean's ego.  It seems like he has to feel involved and important, and so in the grounds we could all feel his presence yesterday.  It's almost like he enjoyed keeping us all waiting so long and then directed Atkinson to the screen like a puppet-master. 

I think you are right. Before JWP got sent off, I thought we could hold out for a point, afterwards it felt that they would produce a good chance and take it. We looked really vulnerable when they got the ball behind us on our left hand side, the switch ball for their second goal was very good.

[redder freak]

3 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

It was definitely a red, jwp went in with both feet and wasn't in control. It was a really stupid tackle.

The VAR decision that deserves attention is the disallowed goal. We would have been fuming had that happened to us. KWP was barely touched and the foul wasnt part of the phase of play that led to the goal.

We got what we deserved - nothing.

The third goal highlighted a lot of what is wrong with McCarthy - his positioning was appalling, he didnt react to  the first 2 shots and then only got hands to the goal because it was straight at him and even then he was too weak to stop it.

I'm not sure who is at fault for our current predicament - hassenhutl has a lot to answer for, but our recruitment team have managed to put together a squad with absolutely no goalscorers...

JWP didn’t go in with both feet. It was a one footed tackle, a bit like Chilwell’s on Livramento, for which he didn’t even get a yellow.

[Turkish]

Great to see saints fans taking photos of Chelsea players celebrating in front of them 🙄

[sad saints fan]

2 hours ago, Teddeer said:

You're right but it goes further in that Dean clearly has an agenda against us and goes out of his way to use his powers to punish us in a biased manner.

I wonder if any of our Saintsweb clever ones can check Mike Deans record for , maybe the past three seasons and see how many free kicks, penalties and cards he has given for each team and see if this is comparable to other refs? I wouldn't know where to start or I would try myself.

[Shroppie]

26 minutes ago, sad saints fan said:

I wonder if any of our Saintsweb clever ones can check Mike Deans record for , maybe the past three seasons and see how many free kicks, penalties and cards he has given for each team and see if this is comparable to other refs? I wouldn't know where to start or I would try myself.

Ralph said that Dean has sent three of our players off, at least two overruling the on-field ref, since he's been at Saints.

[Shroppie]

43 minutes ago, redder freak said:

JWP didn’t go in with both feet. It was a one footed tackle, a bit like Chilwell’s on Livramento, for which he didn’t even get a yellow.

Correct.

[bpsaint]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Great to see saints fans taking photos of Chelsea players celebrating in front of them 🙄

Tell me that’s a joke please 

[BERMUDASAINT]

2 hours ago, redder freak said:

JWP didn’t go in with both feet. It was a one footed tackle, a bit like Chilwell’s on Livramento, for which he didn’t even get a yellow.

He was one footed, coming in low, did not slide through the cheat on a stonking wet surface, he collapsed his legs, reduced momentum,  and tried to pull out of tackle. Result..  just caught cheats ankle, dramatic head snap back and collapse in a dramatic heap, no medical needed, cheat just up and ran around. This was a poorly timed challenge,  no malice, no follow through,  no injury! A yellow card was sufficient, the obvious attempt to upgrade it to red was needed to change the game for the bigger team  as we were holding our own. It was not going to the preconceived result, Chelsea had had some poor results and needed a pick me up, even the announcers cheered up after the sending off,  they could now gush over Chelsea . We were a sacrificial Saint again to those clowns 🤡 called refs.

[Teddeer]

2 hours ago, Shroppie said:

Ralph said that Dean has sent three of our players off, at least two overruling the on-field ref, since he's been at Saints.

More evidence he has an agenda against us.

[Chapel End]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Great to see saints fans taking photos of Chelsea players celebrating in front of them 🙄

Did you get a selfie with Werner then🤣

[Lord Duckhunter]

52 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

More evidence he has an agenda against us.

Why on earth would he have an agenda again at us? I doubt he gives a shiny shite about us. 

[egg]

3 hours ago, redder freak said:

JWP didn’t go in with both feet. It was a one footed tackle, a bit like Chilwell’s on Livramento, for which he didn’t even get a yellow.

It was nothing like Chilwell’s tackle. JWP was about half an hour late, and went into both of mateys legs. There may have been no malice, but it was reckless and deserved a red. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Why on earth would he have an agenda again at us? I doubt he gives a shiny shite about us. 

Yep. Conspiracy theory nonsense. 

[JRM]

7 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep. Conspiracy theory nonsense. 

Southampton Football club asked the Premier league to not appoint Mike Dean to officiate any of our games last season after a string of controversial decisions, that's not a conspiracy. 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, BERMUDASAINT said:

He was one footed, coming in low, did not slide through the cheat on a stonking wet surface, he collapsed his legs, reduced momentum,  and tried to pull out of tackle. Result..  just caught cheats ankle, dramatic head snap back and collapse in a dramatic heap, no medical needed, cheat just up and ran around. This was a poorly timed challenge,  no malice, no follow through,  no injury! A yellow card was sufficient, the obvious attempt to upgrade it to red was needed to change the game for the bigger team  as we were holding our own. It was not going to the preconceived result, Chelsea had had some poor results and needed a pick me up, even the announcers cheered up after the sending off,  they could now gush over Chelsea . We were a sacrificial Saint again to those clowns 🤡 called refs.

There was a worse tackle by Chris Wood yesterday for Burnley where he caught the opponent on the ankle with his leg extended at full stretch. Just a yellow.

[nta786]

8 minutes ago, JRM said:

Southampton Football club asked the Premier league to not appoint Mike Dean to officiate any of our games last season after a string of controversial decisions, that's not a conspiracy. 

I think that was all just tabloid and media rumours, pretty sure Ralph confirmed that we didn’t request this.

 

[Minsk]

19 hours ago, madge said:

Why is it our players never contest bizarre decisions. Take the penalty that wasn’t given at the etihad, the city players were all over Jon moss, getting into his ear. Today when the red card incident occurred I didn’t see anyone getting into the refs ear. We seriously need to work on the dark arts a bit more. As for the game, I thought we could of got something out of it. But we just look like there are a couple of empty shirts playing up front. Armstrong really needs a goal but the service is just non existent. Another season of struggle ahead.

Both Romeu and Bednarek did. At that point though, the ref isn't going to change his mind back again, so they couldn't say too much for risk of getting a yellow themselves (which would have been another sending off for Romeu, as he was already on one).

[JRM]

8 minutes ago, nta786 said:

I think that was all just tabloid and media rumours, pretty sure Ralph confirmed that we didn’t request this.

 

I'm fairly sure Dean wasn't involved in any of our games after this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55922560

[sibster]

16 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

The IFAB uses both laws and rules.

https://www.theifab.com/

They use both words but only to distinguish between the laws of the game and competition rules.

 

It is a common error though so you are not alone, players were the worst for it when I used to referee. 

[Ralph Fastenbüttl]

1 hour ago, Teddeer said:

More evidence he has an agenda against us.

Just take a moment to actually think logically about the events that would have to take place for a referee to not only have "an agenda" against a particular team, but then also to act on those feelings. Our matches take place in the real world, and not the pages of a comic that's been scribbled on some reclaimed lined A4 by a dreamy-eyed adolescent. The notion alone is absolutely farcical.

[Teddeer]

25 minutes ago, JRM said:

Southampton Football club asked the Premier league to not appoint Mike Dean to officiate any of our games last season after a string of controversial decisions, that's not a conspiracy. 

Exactly. Dean has previous against us and whenever he is involved in our games, whether as a ref or VAR official, he always seems over eager to give decisions against us.

[egg]

27 minutes ago, JRM said:

Southampton Football club asked the Premier league to not appoint Mike Dean to officiate any of our games last season after a string of controversial decisions, that's not a conspiracy. 

I think you misunderstand what a conspiracy theory is. Saints asked. The PL said no. That's not a conspiracy theory. 

[JRM]

1 minute ago, egg said:

I think you misunderstand what a conspiracy theory is. Saints asked. The PL said no. That's not a conspiracy theory. 

Was Mike Dean involved in any of our games last season after that? 

[Teddeer]

2 minutes ago, Ralph Fastenbüttl said:

Just take a moment to actually think logically about the events that would have to take place for a referee to not only have "an agenda" against a particular team, but then also to act on those feelings. Our matches take place in the real world, and not the pages of a comic that's been scribbled on some reclaimed lined A4 by a dreamy-eyed adolescent. The notion alone is absolutely farcical.

Why would it be difficult for a referee to act if he has an agenda against a particular team? He's making decisions whether as a ref or VAR official.

[Whitey Grandad]

It’s not a conspiracy if only Dean is involved.

[egg]

Just now, JRM said:

Was Mike Dean involved in any of our games last season after that? 

What are you on about? Saints asking the PL to do something and them saying no isn't a conspiracy theory!! As Duck says above, why would he give a shit about us? 

[egg]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

It’s not a conspiracy if only Dean is involved.

I think people are suggesting it's a wider conspiracy and Dean is the agent of destruction. Or some other mental nonsense. 

[Ralph Fastenbüttl]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

Why would it be difficult for a referee to act if he has an agenda against a particular team? He's making decisions whether as a ref or VAR official.

Yes but WHY WOULD HE? You're telling me a guy for some reason acquires this real-world vendetta against a football club, and then seeks to enact has fury on an actual football pitch in front of millions? Just imagine the reality of that scenario for a moment.

[SFC Forever]

Very disappointing end to what had been a spirited show by most of our players. 

I do not understand how and why Ralph selects the team as he does.

[Teddeer]

Just now, Ralph Fastenbüttl said:

Yes but WHY WOULD HE? You're telling me a guy for some reason acquires this real-world vendetta against a football club, and then seeks to enact has fury on an actual football pitch in front of millions? Just imagine the reality of that scenario for a moment.

Nobody has claimed it's a world wide vendetta. Just my opinion but I think he doesn't particularly like us and is not adverse to giving poor decisions against us.

[egg]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

Nobody has claimed it's a world wide vendetta. Just my opinion but I think he doesn't particularly like us and is not adverse to giving poor decisions against us.

He gave a man a red card for a red card offence. It's not even a one man vendetta. 

[obelisk]

It's only human to have an irrational dislike of something, be it a food item, a tree or a football team and we tend to make decisions that reflect it. Why should a referee be any different? Not saying it's deliberate but maybe Dean had a bad pint in Southampton once. 😉

[JRM]

32 minutes ago, egg said:

What are you on about? Saints asking the PL to do something and them saying no isn't a conspiracy theory!! As Duck says above, why would he give a shit about us? 

It's quite clear. You are trying to mock people who suggest Dean has an agenda as a conspiracy theory. 

It's been pointed out to you that Saints themselves asked for him not to be involved in our games. 

I check premier league website before games for officials and I don't think Dean was selected after United game for rest of the season for a Saints fixture. 

[Chapel End]

45 minutes ago, egg said:

He gave a man a red card for a red card offence. It's not even a one man vendetta. 

Except it wasn't a red card offence, it was no more than a yellow.

A terrible change of decision. 

[sad saints fan]

https://www.whoscored.com/Referees/85/Show/Mike-Dean

There I have found something . Think this proves he has no vendetta against SFC