Chelsea 3-1 Saints - Match Thread

[Mr X]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

What is that based on? It isn't clear unless they state it publically or it happens.

Two nine Nils, four wins in 2021 if that wasn't acceptable to them then he would have been gone by now, no other manager would have survived that so they obviously think his position is permanent for the foreseeable future

[Saint Fan CaM]

JWP should have known better than to test the Ref and VAR’s resolve - any challenge like that is going to tempt a sending off, so all the good work was undone in a moment of stupidity. Not befitting of an experienced captain.

McCarthy was brilliant for the most part and Tino showed why he should be starting in front of KWP to provide a very strong right hand side.

Conversely, it’s criminal that Perrault is being overlooked. He needs more time playing to bed in and he’s not exactly the worst player in the side.

Ralph? We’ll jury is out, but the writing has to be on the wall…nice guy…totally want him to succeed, but he’s not doing it and we need to win the next 2 games.

[Nemi]

I think it’s a clear red, if others don’t fair enough. What incomprehensibly stupid but hardly surprising is that our players keep unnecessarily putting themselves in these positions where the officials have an excuse to send them off. 
 

JWP is meant to be a captain leading by example and he goes making a ridiculously stupid decision by even attempting that tackle.

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Two nine Nils, four wins in 2021 if that wasn't acceptable to them then he would have been gone by now, no other manager would have survived that so they obviously think his position is permanent for the foreseeable future

None of that means it is "clear" as claimed he'd stay if he doesn't start picking up wins this season.

[Shroppie]

How many times has Dean on VAR intervened to get a yellow converted to red?

[DT]

1 minute ago, Shroppie said:

How many times has Dean on VAR intervened to get a yellow converted to red?

Matches are all about him. Just about the worst ref ever

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, Nemi said:

JWP is meant to be a captain leading by example and he goes making a ridiculously stupid decision by even attempting that tackle.

It wasn't particularly stupid, it was slightly mistimed and was actually extremely close to being a very good challenge that may have left a Saints player through on goal. I'd be disappointed if a Saints player in a gegenpressing system wasn't closing down and tackling mis-controls by opposing team defenders on the edge of the box.

[sydney_saint]

2 minutes ago, Nemi said:

I think it’s a clear red, if others don’t fair enough. What incomprehensibly stupid but hardly surprising is that our players keep unnecessarily putting themselves in these positions where the officials have an excuse to send them off. 
 

JWP is meant to be a captain leading by example and he goes making a ridiculously stupid decision by even attempting that tackle.

Come on man, you just can't wait to have a dig at him. I've seen many stupid red cards. This wasn't one of them. Even if it is a red, our game is to press and force mistakes. He's been a little unlucky that on another day it would be yellow. 

[Verbal Kint]

1 minute ago, Shroppie said:

How many times has Dean on VAR intervened to get a yellow converted to red?

Little man syndrome- he can't help himself

[OttawaSaint]

In one calendar year we’ve turned gegenpressing into gegendepressing...

[Shroppie]

10 minutes ago, Nemi said:

I think it’s a clear red, if others don’t fair enough. What incomprehensibly stupid but hardly surprising is that our players keep unnecessarily putting themselves in these positions where the officials have an excuse to send them off. 
 

JWP is meant to be a captain leading by example and he goes making a ridiculously stupid decision by even attempting that tackle.

How many times have you watched it, and from what angles at what speed?

[Chez]

5 minutes ago, Verbal Kint said:

Little man syndrome- he can't help himself

biggest small cunt in football. Cant stand him. Not all his decisions are wrong, but when he makes them, I find it hard not to argue with them, grrrrrr....and relax.

[Chez]

8 minutes ago, sydney_saint said:

Come on man, you just can't wait to have a dig at him. I've seen many stupid red cards. This wasn't one of them. Even if it is a red, our game is to press and force mistakes. He's been a little unlucky that on another day it would be yellow. 

he was lucky not to get a yellow earlier. Probably didn't help him. 

Tat said, we want players to get stuck in etc. and that what he was doing. Its a fine line between my physical, making challenges that are OK and making challenges that end up with a red these days.

[Matthew Le God]

Playing devil's advocate... you could make a case for Azpilicueta being stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal. No VAR review however for that...!

[nta786]

19 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Two nine Nils, four wins in 2021 if that wasn't acceptable to them then he would have been gone by now, no other manager would have survived that so they obviously think his position is permanent for the foreseeable future

I think the board look beyond the bigger picture and delve into the deeper intricacies contextually behind each game.

If I remember correctly, it's why Pellegrino lasted as long as he did. Everytime we looked bad he'd then end up getting a fighting draw against a big side or sneak in a win that bought him more time.

With Ralph, there are too many factors at hand and clearly the Board think there are mitigating circumstances each time i.e. refereeing decisions, injury list, VAR...

[Micky]

35 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Not wearing 'rose tints' at all. Sometimes irony and sarcasm are wasted on here. Go back up the thread, or any match thread, and count how many comments refer to 'big team bias'. Read the comments above about the upgrade of JWP's punishment, or the number of shirt pulls by Chelsea players that went 'unpunished'.

I actually believe that there is some level of psychological influence that refs experience, partly due to the media pressure that the more affluent and successful teams can bring to bear in trying to preserve their dominance. It is not necessarily demonstrated in concious decsions, as the conspiracy theorists would claim, but things that are marginal can be tilted.

Yeah, you may well believe all of your psychological theory, but I think that goal line technology is widely accepted as factual evidence that a goal has been scored. 

Don't know if the ref actually has to prove this to any opposition players, but would be interesting to know. 

[Saint86]

3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Playing devil's advocate... you could make a case for Azpilicueta being stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal. No VAR review however for that...!

I said this at the time. He was offside and obstructed his view of the incoming player and goalbound effort. 

[gandalf]

42 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

Hahahaha

4 down this year then?

Read it again will you

Edited 2 October, 2021 by gandalf
Error

[LaptopSaint]

55 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Our first 7 games have included four of last season's top 6...!

Man City

Man Utd

Chelsea

West Ham

The next 5 games will give a better indication of the season ahead.

Leeds H

Burnley H

Watford A 

Villa H 

Norwich A 

We need to be getting ten points bare minimum from those next five, and I’d be disappointed with anything less than eleven. 

[DT]

Ralph Hasenhuttl on if he still believes in his way of playing: “Why should we change? It’s also nice to watch. I’m not a fan of parking the bus against the big teams." #saintsfc [via @dansheldonsport]
 

this is where we are now. 

[hypochondriac]

Just now, DT said:

Ralph Hasenhuttl on if he still believes in his way of playing: “Why should we change? It’s also nice to watch. I’m not a fan of parking the bus against the big teams." #saintsfc [via @dansheldonsport]
 

this is where we are now. 

He's not wrong. We've done really well this season against the big teams and proven we can take points. We almost did again today and I think we would have been a good bet for a point without the red. 

[DT]

10 minutes ago, nta786 said:

I think the board look beyond the bigger picture and delve into the deeper intricacies contextually behind each game.

If I remember correctly, it's why Pellegrino lasted as long as he did. Everytime we looked bad he'd then end up getting a fighting draw against a big side or sneak in a win that bought him more time.

With Ralph, there are too many factors at hand and clearly the Board think there are mitigating circumstances each time i.e. refereeing decisions, injury list, VAR...

Also. We’re skint and can’t afford to sack him. 

[trousers]

31 minutes ago, Mr X said:

four wins in 2021

Calendar year stats are meaningless. How many more times FFS....?

[Matthew Le God]

Azpilicueta stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal...

[Micky]

27 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

I'd be disappointed if a Saints player in a gegenpressing system wasn't closing down and tackling mis-controls by opposing team defenders on the edge of the box.

Please tell me this is a typo....!

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, Micky said:

Please tell me this is a typo....!

Why do you think it is a typo?

[Chapel End]

4 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Azpilicueta stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal...

Wow, never noticed that at the time 

[Shroppie]

4 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Azpilicueta stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal...

That's not the moment he shot, but there could be a case. Surprised Dean didn't challenge it as he delights in spotting (after watching unpteen slow motion replays) something the ref has, in his opinion, missed.

We really need to change VAR so refs are in control of its use, not VAR refs. They should be choosing the replays to watch.

[trousers]

5 minutes ago, Chapel End said:

Wow, never noticed that at the time 

Me neither. Stone wall off-side if that photo is anything to go by. How on Earth didn't that get picked up by VAR? Did McCarthy get in the referee's face about it or did he meekly accept the situation?

Edited 2 October, 2021 by trousers

[Chapel End]

14 minutes ago, gandalf said:

Read it again will you

I have, now you try

It says Norwich and us and Burnley and Newcastle for other 2. 

2 plus 2 = 4

😄

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Shroppie said:

That's not the moment he shot, but there could be a case.

He was offside and blocking McCarthy's view when the shot was taken. VAR and the media completely ignored it.

Edited 2 October, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Baird of the land]

9 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Azpilicueta stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal...

Think it would have been very harsh to disallow it. When the shot actually happens Mccarthy's view is clear and ball goes nowhere near Azpilueta.

Still there's been some inconsistent interpretation of that sort of thing this season.

[captainchris]

10 minutes ago, trousers said:

Calendar year stats are meaningless. How many more times FFS....?

Fair point….

let’s just look at all the other evidence against keeping Ralph and all the evidence for keeping him then.

In summary.

Emotional guy who makes really strange team decisions and is taking us nowhere.

Wearing your heart on your sleeve is nowhere near enough reason on its own to leave Ralph in charge. 
Has to go.

[Shroppie]

Another game that shows what a mess VAR is

We need to change things radically so that the norm is VAR only comes into play if the ref requests that an incident be reviewed or VAR can demonstrate that the ref has actually missed something, rather than VAR intervening to express an alternative view on a event the ref has seen and ruled on.

Whenever VAR is invoked, the on-field ref should be able to have any replay, from any available angle, at any speed HE requests.

The current system is still broken and at the mercy of attention-seeking VAR refs wanting to prove they’re better than the ref or to find a view that supports their prejudiced take on things.

[Teddeer]

24 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Azpilicueta stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal...

Think that's clutching at straws.

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

Think that's clutching at straws.

Pointing out a goal is offside is not 'clutching at straws'. You cannot stand in front of the opposing keeper in an offside position and block his view of the ball.

[nta786]

24 minutes ago, Shroppie said:

That's not the moment he shot, but there could be a case. Surprised Dean didn't challenge it as he delights in spotting (after watching unpteen slow motion replays) something the ref has, in his opinion, missed.

We really need to change VAR so refs are in control of its use, not VAR refs. They should be choosing the replays to watch.

What we really need is VAR to be ran by ex-players or another independent group/panel.

Too many times now these refs are just simply backing up their mates.

[Teddeer]

1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said:

Pointing out a goal is offside is not 'clutching at straws'. You cannot stand in front of the opposing keeper in an offside position and block his view of the ball.

Think most of us would be fuming if we scored that goal and it was ruled out for offside. 

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

Think most of us would be fuming if we scored that goal and it was ruled out for offside. 

Only those who are unware of the rules of the sport! They make it pretty clear you can't obstruct the keeper's view whilst standing in an offside position, which is what clearly happened.

Edited 2 October, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Teddeer]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

Only those who are unware of the rules of the sport!

I'll leave it there.

[Matthew Le God]

@Teddeer

The rules...

Quote

A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside

[Saints foreva]

42 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Azpilicueta stood in an offside position in front of McCarthy's eyeline for the first goal...

Clearly not blocking McCarthy's eyeline. 

[Matthew Le God]

4 minutes ago, Saints foreva said:

Clearly not blocking McCarthy's eyeline. 

Yes he was, because Azpilicueta being stood there meant McCarthy couldn't see or get to the ball until it was too late. The ball was obstructed from McCarthy's view until that point in the photo you have used. McCarthy was therefore unable to track the ball for the entire time due to an offside player obstructing his view.

Edited 2 October, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Roo1976]

58 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I said this at the time. He was offside and obstructed his view of the incoming player and goalbound effort. 

So nearly every goal scored from a corner should be considered as in the keepers line of sight?............

[hasper57saint]

If JWPs was a Red why was the Red and Penalty overruled v City. Mike Dean has form against us and today is no exception. We were crap in the first half and more than held our own in the second. Until the sending off I had hopes we could sneak this. Ralph needs to have a bloody good look at himself because he’s the one who picks the team. 

[Saint Matty 76]

6 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Yes he was, because Azpilicueta being stood there meant McCarthy couldn't see or get to the ball until it was too late. The ball was obstructed from McCarthy's view until that point in the photo you have used. McCarthy was therefore unable to track the ball for the entire time due to an offside player obstructing his view.

This is bizarre even for you.

[Matthew Le God]

1 minute ago, Roo1976 said:

So nearly every goal scored from a corner should be considered as in the keepers line of sight?............

The assist for goals from corners comes from the ball being kicked from the by-line and going backwards onto the pitch, so if it is a corner and then a one touch goal it can't be obstructing a keeper's line of sight whilst offside.

[Matthew Le God]

3 minutes ago, Saint Matty 76 said:

This is bizarre even for you.

1) Are you not going to explain why you think it is 'bizarre'? 

2) Azpilicueta was offside and him being offside meant that McCarthy could not see the ball for a period of time, nor was McCarthy able to get closer to the ball because Azpilicueta was in the way whilst offside. McCarthy was only able to see the ball when it was too late and he didn't have enough time to react due to an offside player meaning he couldn't track the path of the ball.

So hardly 'bizarre'! 🙄

Edited 2 October, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[JRM]

33 minutes ago, Shroppie said:

Another game that shows what a mess VAR is

We need to change things radically so that the norm is VAR only comes into play if the ref requests that an incident be reviewed or VAR can demonstrate that the ref has actually missed something, rather than VAR intervening to express an alternative view on a event the ref has seen and ruled on.

Whenever VAR is invoked, the on-field ref should be able to have any replay, from any available angle, at any speed HE requests.

The current system is still broken and at the mercy of attention-seeking VAR refs wanting to prove they’re better than the ref or to find a view that supports their prejudiced take on things.

I agree, plus it has ruined the spontaneous crazy goal celebrations, I'd scrap it personally. 

[WALK DMC]

5 minutes ago, hasper57saint said:

If JWPs was a Red why was the Red and Penalty overruled v City. Mike Dean has form against us and today is no exception. We were crap in the first half and more than held our own in the second. Until the sending off I had hopes we could sneak this. Ralph needs to have a bloody good look at himself because he’s the one who picks the team. 

I am really puzzled by this. You say that "we more than held our own in the 2nd" and until the sending off had hopes we could sneak it.  Couldn't agree more. It was particularly impressive against the European champions with £150m worth in talent just in the 2 players up front. 

And then you have a go at Ralph for picking the team ?     Are you suggesting he shouldn't have picked JWP as he might get sent off ?  Or did you just want to take the opportunity to have a go at Ralph for no other reason than to have a go at Ralph ?