Adam Armstrong

[The Kraken]

I didn’t watch the game today but just caught the Sky highlights. He should have scored the header imo, looked like he was trying to loop it back to the far post but got it wrong. Aside from that he looked lively and he’s definitely got something about him, decent with the ball at his feet.

I see him, Adams are Broja as 3 very different options, so good options to have all round. 

[LiberalCommunist]

I thought AA was really snatching at things against Chelsea midweek. He did not like being dropped from the team & it showed. As the match went on, his frustration grew. His pen was very good considering. Today I think he was trying too hard. He had a couple really good efforts that were only just wide. If he relaxes a bit, goals will come, of that I'm sure. 

Anyone writing him off right now, just wants to be the first to call out the cheap Championship striker that we we shouldn't have bought, as a stick to beat the owner with.

This lad as potential, perhaps more than Che in some aspects. 

[VectisSaint]

Armstrong actually had a good game today, assist for the goal and also set up Adams for the missed sitter. He was very creative and showed a lot of skill in and around the box. As an atta king midfielder he was excellent, but as a central striker, which is his role, he fluffed his lines so many times, not getting any of his efforts on target (albeit with some deflections not helping) is a problem. As part of a strike pair with Broja or Adams he is very effective, but has to start contributing some goals himself. I think they will come. 

[Turkish]

He should have scored that header but was unlucky a few times, when you're lucks in on your on a good run as a striker those ones that went just wide go in, the one that deflected wide deflects in, Sure he'll come good, looks sharp and lively,

[The Left Back]

26 minutes ago, Turkish said:

He should have scored that header but was unlucky a few times, when you're lucks in on your on a good run as a striker those ones that went just wide go in, the one that deflected wide deflects in, Sure he'll come good, looks sharp and lively,

I agree with this.  The header was not great (given Adams missed one too I can imagine they'll be practising a bit more this week).  But Armstrong's first touch, pace, movement, awareness of space and team play are better than I imagined.  I could see him getting a lot of goals for us once he settles.

[Saint Garrett]

Probably his best game so far for us, and clearly a player in there, but my word he’s so wasteful. You can get away with that in the championship, but he needs to learn to be way more clinical, or he just won’t make it in the premier league. 
 

Plenty of positives so far though, and hopefully he can improve that part of his game. If he was clinical he could have had 5 or 6 for us already this season. 

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, Saint Garrett said:

Probably his best game so far for us, and clearly a player in there, but my word he’s so wasteful. You can get away with that in the championship, but he needs to learn to be way more clinical, or he just won’t make it in the premier league. 
 

Plenty of positives so far though, and hopefully he can improve that part of his game. If he was clinical he could have had 5 or 6 for us already this season. 

28 goals for Blackburn last season suggests he has it in him to be clinical, and his highlights reel shows he is more than capable of sticking it away when he's given chances.

He's just on one of those runs that all strikers go through, but he's getting on the end of things as well as carving out chances for himself. I have no doubt he'll start banging them in soon.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

24 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

28 goals for Blackburn last season suggests he has it in him to be clinical, and his highlights reel shows he is more than capable of sticking it away when he's given chances.

He's just on one of those runs that all strikers go through, but he's getting on the end of things as well as carving out chances for himself. I have no doubt he'll start banging them in soon.

Blackburn fans told us when he signed that he wasn't clinical. He was just getting a lot of chances in the championship. It's definitely something he needs to improve but it is more than just form

[Teddeer]

3 hours ago, The Left Back said:

I agree with this.  The header was not great (given Adams missed one too I can imagine they'll be practising a bit more this week).  But Armstrong's first touch, pace, movement, awareness of space and team play are better than I imagined.  I could see him getting a lot of goals for us once he settles.

Unfortunately, and I'm not sure why,  Che is very poor at heading the ball. I agree that Adam Armstrong will come good and might even go on a streak of scoring. Here's hoping it starts on Friday if he's selected. Given those same  two headed chances I'm fairly confident Broja would have been registering two goals.

Edited 1 November, 2021 by Teddeer

[TWar]

Some stats I posted in the other thread regarding Broja, Redmond, Armstrong, and Adams:

Broja is doing rather well on this front, he has both the best xG per 90 (0.51) and the best overperformance of xG per 90 (0.23). Armstrong and Adams have an xG of 0.34 and 0.2 respectively so combined their xG is about that of Broja. Armstrong is underperforming xG by 0.21 whereas Adams is performing basically bang on xG.

One thing worth noting is Broja is not at all creative (with regards to assists), with an xA of 0.02 per 90. With Adams and Armstrong racking up 0.2 and 0.15 xA per 90 respectively.

The upshot of this is Broja gets the most chances and is most clinical but doesn't really make chances. Armstrong and Adams are a lot better providers but less clinical and receive less chances. Redmond is more creative than both Armstrong and Adams (0.29 xA/90) but gets very few chances (0.17xG/90) and is finishing about as poorly as Armstrong (- 0.18 G-xG/90).

My take away from this is Broja requires Redmond to play with him as he doesn't make enough so he needs a pure creator. The combination of Redmond + Broja is pretty level on most stats to Armstrong + Adams. Mixing and matching probably wouldn't work as Broja doesn't contribute creatively. This also answers those who wonder why Redmond starts so much.

Edited 1 November, 2021 by TWar

[TWar]

3 minutes ago, adriansfc said:

Not sure we can make anything of this when Broja has 2 starts and neither with Adams or Armstrong. Takes time to gel and I've seen quite enough of forwards creating lots of chances they and the rest of the attack can't finish. 

Broja needs to come back in. Adams, Armstrong and Redmond will just have to show they can consistently score. Only really have faith in Adams to any extent there and even then he's probably a 1 in 3 or 4 player at best. 

You are right, it is a very small sample size. I think the xA of Broja does stand out though.

[saintwbu]

57 minutes ago, TWar said:

You are right, it is a very small sample size. I think the xA of Broja does stand out though.

I also think his showing in the West Ham game also further strengthen his reputation for being the most lethal. He had two sights of goal in that cameo (not even chances really) and he managed to hit the post and have one cleared off the line. Plus anyone who’s watched his recent goals for Albania can see similarities to that goal vs Burnley and the post hit vs West Ham. He really does seem to know where the goal is.

[Rickman42]

Armstrong reminds me of Che when he first moved to Saints...very good at getting into goal scoring positions but just lacking a bit of composure and lashing at shots a little.

 

No doubt he'll find his form very soon, I've been encouraged by the Che/Armstrong partnership

[danjosaint]

I agree about Armstrong needs to be clinical but there is a lot to like from him, he's quick , got quick feet and really finds space well, trait of a good goalscorer, I think he will come good and if playing 2 up then I'd like to c him and Broja,  both very different but could complement each other really well 

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, TWar said:

You are right, it is a very small sample size. I think the xA of Broja does stand out though.

He’s scored 2 in 2, who gives a flying fuck what his xA is?  

[TWar]

Just now, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s scored 2 in 2, who gives a flying fuck what his xA is?  

Well goals need to be made as well as scored. Having someone who can set up goals is valuable.

[Teddeer]

54 minutes ago, TWar said:

Well goals need to be made as well as scored. Having someone who can set up goals is valuable.

Not all of them. Many goals these days show nobody assisted.

[TWar]

33 minutes ago, Teddeer said:

Not all of them. Many goals these days show nobody assisted.

True, but he is also low for chances created. Broja is quality but he's a bit of a poacher. I could see a world where he plays well with Adams though as said previously. 

[Dman]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

He’s scored 2 in 2, who gives a flying fuck what his xA is?  

This is the same geezer who said that Armstrong and Adams had a ‘higher ceiling’ than Borja because their XG or XA bollox was higher in a higher league (championship - Dutch league).
 

I’m not convinced he watches the games rather he just sits on stats sites afterwards. 
 

Edited 1 November, 2021 by Dman

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

 Broja is quality but he's a bit of a poacher. 

What a load of old pony. The goal against Burnley, when he hit the post against West Ham, he picked the ball up and went at people. He’s not a “bit of a poacher “ at all, he puts himself about, wins headers and gets at people. You either don’t understand what a poacher is, or you’re so obsessed with ridiculous stats that you can’t see what’s in front of you.
 

I know you made yourself look a bit of a chump over the lad, but I’d stop digging if I was you. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

True, but he is also low for chances created. Broja is quality but he's a bit of a poacher. I could see a world where he plays well with Adams though as said previously. 

That's so wrong. Watch his goals for Albania, for us, last season. He's not a poacher. He has that rare ability to make a goal for himself, and finish ridiculously well. 

[TWar]

10 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What a load of old pony. The goal against Burnley, when he hit the post against West Ham, he picked the ball up and went at people. He’s not a “bit of a poacher “ at all, he puts himself about, wins headers and gets at people. You either don’t understand what a poacher is, or you’re so obsessed with ridiculous stats that you can’t see what’s in front of you.
 

I know you made yourself look a bit of a chump over the lad, but I’d stop digging if I was you. 

His shot creating actions is the lowest of our three main strikers, both his goals were assisted, and both goals were shots from inside the box, albeit one was well taken dribbling into the box mostly unopposed with a defender not getting tight near the end. The stats aren't ridiculous because you can't understand them.

10 hours ago, egg said:

That's so wrong. Watch his goals for Albania, for us, last season. He's not a poacher. He has that rare ability to make a goal for himself, and finish ridiculously well. 

For his two goals for us, one past a defender (who he didn't beat, they just didn't get close enough) and one was pretty much an unmarked tap in with only the keeper to beat. He seems to be good at making goals against much lesser opposition like for Albania and in the dutch league but in this league he creates very little and I can show you the stats to back that up.

11 hours ago, Dman said:

This is the same geezer who said that Armstrong and Adams had a ‘higher ceiling’ than Borja because their XG or XA bollox was higher in a higher league (championship - Dutch league).
 

I’m not convinced he watches the games rather he just sits on stats sites afterwards. 
 

You are basing it off like two games you've watched, how is that more valuable than stats throughout their respective careers?

[egg]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

His shot creating actions is the lowest of our three main strikers, both his goals were assisted, and both goals were shots from inside the box, albeit one was well taken dribbling into the box mostly unopposed with a defender not getting tight near the end. The stats aren't ridiculous because you can't understand them.

For his two goals for us, one past a defender (who he didn't beat, they just didn't get close enough) and one was pretty much an unmarked tap in with only the keeper to beat. He seems to be good at making goals against much lesser opposition like for Albania and in the dutch league but in this league he creates very little and I can show you the stats to back that up.

You are basing it off like two games you've watched, how is that more valuable than stats throughout their respective careers?

You're going to a lot of effort to try to disprove what everyone else sees. Neither of his goals for us were poachers goals. As for his other goals, demeaning the opponents does not make your point. Most of them were fantastic finishes, often from self created chances. 

You're very much in the minority in this. Broja is not a poacher. As for stats, I have no idea how they'll demonstrate that goals starting with runs from outside the box are poachers finishes. 

[Billy the Kidd]

1 minute ago, egg said:

You're going to a lot of effort to try to disprove what everyone else sees. Neither of his goals for us were poachers goals. As for his other goals, demeaning the opponents does not make your point. Most of them were fantastic finishes, often from self created chances. 

You're very much in the minority in this. Broja is not a poacher. As for stats, I have no idea how they'll demonstrate that goals starting with runs from outside the box are poachers finishes. 

I think his one v Leeds was more of a poachers goal, but not the one v Burnley or the ones for Albania.

I think right now we have good options up front, just hoping AA can get one as I think he is a good player.

As for who is better, I think log term it is likely to be Broja, although I see a little of a previous Chelsea wanderer in him - Mikel Forsell.

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

You're going to a lot of effort to try to disprove what everyone else sees. Neither of his goals for us were poachers goals. As for his other goals, demeaning the opponents does not make your point. Most of them were fantastic finishes, often from self created chances. 

You're very much in the minority in this. Broja is not a poacher. As for stats, I have no idea how they'll demonstrate that goals starting with runs from outside the box are poachers finishes. 

He reminds me a lot of Edin Dzeko. To watch I mean not comparing their stats on a spreadsheet 

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

He reminds me a lot of Edin Dzeko. To watch I mean not comparing their stats on a spreadsheet 

There's a similarity, although Broja seems to have more pace than I remember Dzeko having. He's a huge talent. 

[TWar]

Just now, egg said:

You're going to a lot of effort to try to disprove what everyone else sees. Neither of his goals for us were poachers goals. As for his other goals, demeaning the opponents does not make your point. Most of them were fantastic finishes, often from self created chances. 

You're very much in the minority in this. Broja is not a poacher. As for stats, I have no idea how they'll demonstrate that goals starting with runs from outside the box are poachers finishes. 

To be honest if you don't think the goal against Leeds is a poaching goal I don't know what to tell you. It was put on a plate for him, about 8 yards out, unmarked with just the keeper to beat. Seems like you have a very low threshold for what counts as a "self made goal".

Regarding the opponents, it kind of does. He dribbles well against poor opposition, beating men left and right. In the premier league he doesn't do this nearly as much, having under half the successful dribbles than Adam Armstrong and and a pretty woeful 28% dribble success rate, lowest in our entire team who have attempted atleast one dribble. The quality of opponent definitely does matter, is the point, he might be a player who makes his own chances in other leagues but his shot creating actions are real low in this one.

None of this is an insult btw, being a good poacher is a very valuable skill and a useful thing to have in the team.

Finally, regarding being in the minority. That's fine. If you are confident in your opinion then merely being in the minority doesn't bother you. If other people have good counter arguments then those are valuable (and really the whole reason to be on a forum as you learn more through this) but people just saying "I disagree". Not bothered. People disagreed about my take on the quality of the Tino signing and now look where we are.

[egg]

7 minutes ago, TWar said:

To be honest if you don't think the goal against Leeds is a poaching goal I don't know what to tell you. It was put on a plate for him, about 8 yards out, unmarked with just the keeper to beat. Seems like you have a very low threshold for what counts as a "self made goal".

Regarding the opponents, it kind of does. He dribbles well against poor opposition, beating men left and right. In the premier league he doesn't do this nearly as much, having under half the successful dribbles than Adam Armstrong and and a pretty woeful 28% dribble success rate, lowest in our entire team who have attempted atleast one dribble. The quality of opponent definitely does matter, is the point, he might be a player who makes his own chances in other leagues but his shot creating actions are real low in this one.

None of this is an insult btw, being a good poacher is a very valuable skill and a useful thing to have in the team.

Finally, regarding being in the minority. That's fine. If you are confident in your opinion then merely being in the minority doesn't bother you. If other people have good counter arguments then those are valuable (and really the whole reason to be on a forum as you learn more through this) but people just saying "I disagree". Not bothered. People disagreed about my take on the quality of the Tino signing and now look where we are.

Hmmm...you said in response to Dman "You are basing it off like two games you've watched, how is that more valuable than stats throughout their respective careers?" 

Either what he's done in two Premier league games, and what he's done elsewhere, is relevant. You can't have it both ways mate. 

He's not a poacher - that's based on what he's done throughout the entirety of his short career, not just in one game against Leeds. 

You get kudos for Tino, but that doesn't give you credit for being wrong about this lad. 

 

[Maggie May]

20 hours ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Blackburn fans told us when he signed that he wasn't clinical. He was just getting a lot of chances in the championship. It's definitely something he needs to improve but it is more than just form

What does that mean? Define clinical.
 

28 goals suggest he is clinical and took his chances. Maybe he’s just not up to Prem standard yet?

[TWar]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

Hmmm...you said in response to Dman "You are basing it off like two games you've watched, how is that more valuable than stats throughout their respective careers?" 

Either what he's done in two Premier league games, and what he's done elsewhere, is relevant. You can't have it both ways mate. 

He's not a poacher - that's based on what he's done throughout the entirety of his short career, not just in one game against Leeds. 

You get kudos for Tino, but that doesn't give you credit for being wrong about this lad. 

 

I think, like Tino, we should maybe wait and see. We have our opinions and I respect yours. Maybe "just a poacher" is unfair as he does make goals well internationally and it's not really fair to expect him to immediately start doing the same in the big leagues, he is still only 20! I concede that. Right now though he doesn't create much in the prem, either for himself or for his partner. That was my point really. Again though, being a good poacher is a complement, and I do think he takes up good positions and finishes well which are important traits for that role.

I still believe Armstrong is better right now and more promising but I would be very happy to be wrong about Broja and for him to become a world beater (and preferably we sign him). I was negative about Lyanco too and he is slowly bringing me around. Maybe the correct take this summer is "all our signings were awesome".

Edited 2 November, 2021 by TWar

[Billy the Kidd]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

I think, like Tino, we should maybe wait and see. We have our opinions and I respect yours. Maybe "just a poacher" is unfair as he does make goals well internationally and it's not really fair to expect him to immediately start doing the same in the big leagues, he is still only 19! I concede that. Again though, being a good poacher is a complement, and I do think he takes up good positions and finishes well which are important traits for that role.

I still believe Armstrong is better right now and more promising but I would be very happy to be wrong about Broja and for him to become a world beater (and preferably we sign him). I was negative about Lyanco too and he is slowly bringing me around. Maybe the correct take this summer is "all our signings were awesome".

Good points, although. It sure we can say all our summer signings were awesome. I like AA, but 1 goal isn’t awesome and whilst I think he will come good, and the team haven’t played totally to his strengths, let’s hope we are saying that in May!

I would keep AA in the starting line up v Villa as I think he will score a couple, they are there for the taking, who would you play up top?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

7 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

What does that mean? Define clinical.
 

28 goals suggest he is clinical and took his chances. Maybe he’s just not up to Prem standard yet?

If he had 200 shots and only scored 28, then that wouldn't be clinical. Step up to the Prem and he may only get 50 chances, so he needs to be more accurate or he won't score many

[TWar]

7 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Good points, although. It sure we can say all our summer signings were awesome. I like AA, but 1 goal isn’t awesome and whilst I think he will come good, and the team haven’t played totally to his strengths, let’s hope we are saying that in May!

I would keep AA in the starting line up v Villa as I think he will score a couple, they are there for the taking, who would you play up top?

Against Villa I think the lads on TSP actually made a really good point that Villa are dreadful in the air and against crosses. They also look to dominate midfield and break you down. Owing to this, I think it is prime time to play a 4141 again. Our best crossers at fullback (Tino and Perraud), our speedy attacking mids who can cross on the wings (Stu and Djenepo) running at Cash and Targett who are weak links. And the big man Broja up top heading in goals, feeding off crosses, and scoring.

Against Norwich the following game however I would play our 4222 with Armstrong and Adams in front of Ely and Stu. They have slow defenders, are weak down the middle, and try to hit on the break more than dominate midfield so that strat works better against them. Also KWP at LB as he is a better 1v1 defender and they are pretty threatening through Rashica on the right.

This is an excellent problem to have, as our forwards, wingers, AMs, and fullbacks are all in competition and all have different strengths, we should use this to adapt to the problems at hand. 

Edited 2 November, 2021 by TWar

[Billy the Kidd]

1 minute ago, TWar said:

Against Villa I think the lads on TSP actually made a really good point that Villa are dreadful in the air and against crosses. They also look to dominate midfield and break you down. Owing to this, I think it is prime time to play a 4141 again. Our best crossers at fullback (KWP and Perraud), our speedy attacking mids who can cross on the wings (Stu and Djenepo) running at Cash and Targett who are weak links. And the big man Broja up top heading in goals, feeding off crosses, and scoring.

Against Norwich the following game however I would play our 4222 with Armstrong and Adams in front of Ely and Stu. They have slow defenders, are weak down the middle, and try to hit on the break more than dominate midfield so that strat works better against them. Also KWP at LB as he is a better 1v1 defender and they are pretty threatening through Rashica on the right.

This is an excellent problem to have, as our forwards, wingers, AMs, and fullbacks are all in competition and all have different strengths, we should use this to adapt to the problems at hand. 

I hadn’t listened to that yet, will do so later. 

That makes sense, although I wonder if Villa will change their shape and approach against us to try to play on the counter. I’m not sure they will be as open as they were on Sunday v WHU. 

[Turkish]

12 minutes ago, TWar said:

Against Villa I think the lads on TSP actually made a really good point that Villa are dreadful in the air and against crosses. They also look to dominate midfield and break you down. Owing to this, I think it is prime time to play a 4141 again. Our best crossers at fullback (Tino and Perraud), our speedy attacking mids who can cross on the wings (Stu and Djenepo) running at Cash and Targett who are weak links. And the big man Broja up top heading in goals, feeding off crosses, and scoring.

Against Norwich the following game however I would play our 4222 with Armstrong and Adams in front of Ely and Stu. They have slow defenders, are weak down the middle, and try to hit on the break more than dominate midfield so that strat works better against them. Also KWP at LB as he is a better 1v1 defender and they are pretty threatening through Rashica on the right.

This is an excellent problem to have, as our forwards, wingers, AMs, and fullbacks are all in competition and all have different strengths, we should use this to adapt to the problems at hand. 

So basically two pacy widemen and a big lad up top to head in the crosses. Kind of what a lot of teams did in the 80s which was sneered at by a lot 10 years ago as being outdated dinosaur football, now rebranded as a visionary tactic "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun"

Edited 2 November, 2021 by Turkish

[TWar]

53 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So basically two pacy widemen and a big lad up top to head in the crosses. Kind of what a lot of teams did in the 80s which was sneered at by a lot 10 years ago as being outdated dinosaur football, now rebranded as a visionary tactic "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun"

I think some older people think their not understanding or liking of new tactics goes both ways. It doesn't. Older tactics still work in certain scenarios and any good coach should have them as an arrow in their quiver, but it should be alongside newer ideas. No one is calling it "visionary and new". (Also it's four pacey widemen with the fullbacks as well as wingers. Also CDM who basically adapts into a back 3 half the time, alongside 8s who both play as forwards when the fullbacks are back or CM's if both fullbacks are advanced, or split one one way and one the other. It's a very fluid system, moreso than a 442 or 451 of old. But that's fine, it is the same basic idea.)

For the record, this is that "old person thinks young people don't get books because he doesn't get computers" effect all over again. It's amazing how often you fall into that.

Edited 2 November, 2021 by TWar

[Badger]

14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So basically two pacy widemen and a big lad up top to head in the crosses. Kind of what a lot of teams did in the 80s which was sneered at by a lot 10 years ago as being outdated dinosaur football, now rebranded as a visionary tactic "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun"

Pre dates the 1980's. Think back to the 1960's, Davies, Paine and Sydenham, although I think Paine and Sydenham's success was as much about skill and guile rather than just pace.

And they could cross a ball, rather than most modern "wingers"/widemen whose idea of a cross is get to the byline by their pace and then thunder the ball into the box in hope.

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, TWar said:

I think older people think their not understanding or liking of new tactics goes both ways. It doesn't. Older tactics still work in certain scenarios and any good coach should have them as an arrow in their quiver, but it should be alongside newer ideas. No one is calling it "visionary and new". (Also it's four pacey widemen with the fullbacks as well as wingers. Also CDM who basically adapts into a back 3 half the time, alongside 8s who both play as forwards when the fullbacks are back or CM's if both fullbacks are advanced, or split one one way and one the other. It's a very fluid system, moreso than a 442 or 451 of old. But that's fine, it is the same basic idea.)

For the record, this is that "old person thinks young people don't get books because he doesn't get computers" effect all over again. It's amazing how often you fall into that.

Attacking fullbacks hey? visionary, new, only in the modern game when we measured stats have we ever seen attacking fullbacks. Apart from Mark Dennis, Ivan Golac, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Zaneti, Carlos Alberto, Izzaraizu, the list goes on. The trouble with you youngsters is that you think your geniuses, it's all been done before yet you think you're coming up with something ground breaking. Football like fashion goes in cycles, the problem with you wet behind the ears spreadsheet jockeys is that you think you're superior and gifted and visionary to everyone else and no one has ever seen something of this like before, because you havent. 

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

Pre dates the 1980's. Think back to the 1960's, Davies, Paine and Sydenham, although I think Paine and Sydenham's success was as much about skill and guile rather than just pace.

And they could cross a ball, rather than most modern "wingers"/widemen whose idea of a cross is get to the byline by their pace and then thunder the ball into the box in hope.

Yes you're right, Ron Davies as the big lad to head in the crosses. So this groundbreaking "new" tactic is actually 60 years old. 

[WALK DMC]

10 minutes ago, TWar said:

I think older people think their not understanding or liking of new tactics goes both ways. It doesn't. Older tactics still work in certain scenarios and any good coach should have them as an arrow in their quiver, but it should be alongside newer ideas. No one is calling it "visionary and new". (Also it's four pacey widemen with the fullbacks as well as wingers. Also CDM who basically adapts into a back 3 half the time, alongside 8s who both play as forwards when the fullbacks are back or CM's if both fullbacks are advanced, or split one one way and one the other. It's a very fluid system, moreso than a 442 or 451 of old. But that's fine, it is the same basic idea.)

For the record, this is that "old person thinks young people don't get books because he doesn't get computers" effect all over again. It's amazing how often you fall into that.

As an "older person" I can confirm that I find value in both my experience of different historical styles and statistical analysis. 

I think the bigger issue is that sometimes TWar comes across as rather patronising when explaining these points. Adding to this he seems to change his mind with the wind ("I am slowly changing my mind about Lyanco" - after one decent game !) and being hopelessly wrong on certain points like Broja being a poacher based on his goal against Leeds and the statistical analysis of 2 games. 

My perception of TWAR (which is probably unfair and is only based on his messages) is that of the guy in the front row at school who always puts his hand up first to answer teacher's questions. Sure the rest of us in the back row all have a grudging respect for him, but it doesn't stop us smearing mud in his face at the first break......

[TWar]

Just now, Turkish said:

Attacking fullbacks hey? visionary, new, only in the modern game when we measured stats have we ever seen attacking fullbacks. Apart from Mark Dennis, Ivan Golac, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Zaneti, Carlos Alberto, Izzaraizu, the list goes on. The trouble with you youngsters is that you think your geniuses, it's all been done before yet you think you're coming up with something ground breaking. Football like fashion goes in cycles, the problem with you wet behind the ears spreadsheet jockeys is that you think you're superior and gifted and visionary to everyone else and no one has ever seen something of this like before, because you havent. 

I'm not saying every element is visionary. Old tactics are part of the modern managers quiver alongside newer ones. I'm beginning to question if you can read.

Also you don't have to be a genius to know more about a thing than you. There are a lot of very very intelligent older people who know a lot more about a myriad of topics than the vast majority of young people, including football. You, unfortunately, are not one of them.

[Turkish]

Just now, TWar said:

I'm not saying every element is visionary. Old tactics are part of the modern managers quiver alongside newer ones. I'm beginning to question if you can read.

Also you don't have to be a genius to know more about a thing than you. There are a lot of very very intelligent older people who know a lot more about a myriad of topics than the vast majority of young people, including football. You, unfortunately, are not one of them.

Neither are you pal, but sadly you think you are. Such a shame you had to get insulting. I'll leave to you carry on trying to convince people Broja is nothing more than a poacher 🤣

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, WALK DMC said:

As an "older person" I can confirm that I find value in both my experience of different historical styles and statistical analysis. 

I think the bigger issue is that sometimes TWar comes across as rather patronising when explaining these points. Adding to this he seems to change his mind with the wind ("I am slowly changing my mind about Lyanco" - after one decent game !) and being hopelessly wrong on certain points like Broja being a poacher based on his goal against Leeds and the statistical analysis of 2 games. 

My perception of TWAR (which is probably unfair and is only based on his messages) is that of the guy in the front row at school who always puts his hand up first to answer teacher's questions. Sure the rest of us in the back row all have a grudging respect for him, but it doesn't stop us smearing mud in his face at the first break......

Big emphasis on the slowly! I am not all the way round on Lyanco at all tbh, I still think he is a poor signing. But I have to admit that there are a lot more ticks in the pro column than when I first judged him. It is important to change your views based on new evidence imo, its a key part of learning.

Regarding the perception, I was a pain in the bum at school, used to sit at the back and talk over the teacher all the time and forget my homework. I like stats, but I hated school. I didn't really get into stats and numbers and that till Uni and post grad stuff.

[Billy the Kidd]

Well I don’t see Twar in the same way, and I’m not young, or particularly old either I guess. 

I find the analysis useful and whilst I may not totally agree with him on Broja, he isn’t yet wrong on that either. 

He is explaining how tactics have evolved, which they have, he isn’t saying everything is new. 

I just think some people like to moan about shit if they perhaps haven’t always liked everything they post, playing the poster rather than the post I guess. 

also I don’t see him as that person at the front of the class with his hand up, nor smearing mud in their face. Bit weird that for me 😅  

 

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Well I don’t see Twar in the same way, and I’m not young, or particularly old either I guess. 

I find the analysis useful and whilst I may not totally agree with him on Broja, he isn’t yet wrong on that either. 

He is explaining how tactics have evolved, which they have, he isn’t saying everything is new. 

I just think some people like to moan about shit if they perhaps haven’t always liked everything they post, playing the poster rather than the post I guess. 

also I don’t see him as that person at the front of the class with his hand up, nor smearing mud in their face. Bit weird that for me 😅  

 

I thought that too but didn't want to say anything! 😂

[SFC Forever]

It makes me smile when Sydenham, Paine and big Ron Davies are quoted as examples.  Guess George O'Brien (Spelling?)Is  forgotten. Before and after those that were mentioned we have up until recent times been known as a team with flair. A team that could score heavily and also concede in same manner.

Our alehouse brawlers still had attacking skills up front although the talk was usually about our hardman image from the defence.

 

My memory is fading but search hard enough and images can still be found of days gone past.

[Teddeer]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

To be honest if you don't think the goal against Leeds is a poaching goal I don't know what to tell you. It was put on a plate for him, about 8 yards out, unmarked with just the keeper to beat. Seems like you have a very low threshold for what counts as a "self made goal".

Regarding the opponents, it kind of does. He dribbles well against poor opposition, beating men left and right. In the premier league he doesn't do this nearly as much, having under half the successful dribbles than Adam Armstrong and and a pretty woeful 28% dribble success rate, lowest in our entire team who have attempted atleast one dribble. The quality of opponent definitely does matter, is the point, he might be a player who makes his own chances in other leagues but his shot creating actions are real low in this one.

None of this is an insult btw, being a good poacher is a very valuable skill and a useful thing to have in the team.

Finally, regarding being in the minority. That's fine. If you are confident in your opinion then merely being in the minority doesn't bother you. If other people have good counter arguments then those are valuable (and really the whole reason to be on a forum as you learn more through this) but people just saying "I disagree". Not bothered. People disagreed about my take on the quality of the Tino signing and now look where we are.

A poacher from my understanding is someone who has an almost inbuilt knack to be in the right place at the right time usually in a crowded penalty area and will often score from fairly close range. Haven't seen this in any of Broja's goals for us or Albania. Sorry if I'm missing something or I've got the definition of a poacher wrong.

[Minsk]

27 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Neither are you pal, but sadly you think you are. Such a shame you had to get insulting. I'll leave to you carry on trying to convince people Broja is nothing more than a poacher 🤣

Back to your usual Turkish? You start insulting and trying to belittle posters with a different opinion to your own then, when they respond in kind, you accuse them of becoming insulting. It seems we have a raft of such posters and posting style on here of late. Such a shame. You can clearly express your views and put across good arguments when you want to.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, Teddeer said:

A poacher from my understanding is someone who has an almost inbuilt knack to be in the right place at the right time usually in a crowded penalty area and will often score from fairly close range. Haven't seen this in any of Broja's goals for us or Albania. Sorry if I'm missing something or I've got the definition of a poacher wrong.

The Leeds goal was a goal scored from fairly close range as a result of being in the right position no? The Burnley goal less so, but still one where put through without much beating of defenders required (one defender not getting close enough to him to block a shot). I think a lot of his chances (Volley from Livra cross in the Burnley game, shot from centre of the box when ball dropped to him in same game) tend to come from good positioning in the box more than actively beating a man.

Which I why I say he functions more as a poacher. He rolled a man and hit the post against West Ham but that I think is the only time he's made his own chance I can remember, maybe the one where he skied it although can't remember the game. I also don't recall him ever setting up a team mate. I think for Albania he has made chances but I question the quality of opposition. It is more that his threat mainly comes from being well placed to score and putting it away is why the poacher label fits so far. If he adapts his international game to the league then he could be a great all round player.

[Minsk]

35 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Well I don’t see Twar in the same way, and I’m not young, or particularly old either I guess. 

I find the analysis useful and whilst I may not totally agree with him on Broja, he isn’t yet wrong on that either. 

He is explaining how tactics have evolved, which they have, he isn’t saying everything is new. 

I just think some people like to moan about shit if they perhaps haven’t always liked everything they post, playing the poster rather than the post I guess. 

also I don’t see him as that person at the front of the class with his hand up, nor smearing mud in their face. Bit weird that for me 😅  

 

Agree with this.