England/Hungary/Racism Discussion (Split)

[Weston Super Saint]

13 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Er the police don’t just decide out of the blue to stop someone , they have a profile which they are working to . So I am not saying these institutions are rotten to the core just that they have a bias . It is not the fact that there are a few racists on board but that the system has developed with a bias . Not easy to identify or correct but still needs looking at. I’m sure most people go about their job without giving it thought so we feel ok . 

You're right. The police should stop and search way more white pensioners to even things out.

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Er the police don’t just decide out of the blue to stop someone , they have a profile which they are working to . So I am not saying these institutions are rotten to the core just that they have a bias . It is not the fact that there are a few racists on board but that the system has developed with a bias . Not easy to identify or correct but still needs looking at. I’m sure most people go about their job without giving it thought so we feel ok . 

Yes the police in general stop more young black men than other demographics. That doesn't make them institutionally racist. 

Edited 5 September, 2021 by hypochondriac

[East Kent Saint]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes the police in general stop more young black men than other demographics. That doesn't make them institutionally racist. 

Never mind we will just have to agree to disagree and stop taking up space on here . 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Never mind we will just have to agree to disagree and stop taking up space on here . 

I think you'll have a real job on your hands to convince a majority of the British public that major UK institutions are systemically racist. Best of luck. 

[East Kent Saint]

50 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think you'll have a real job on your hands to convince a majority of the British public that major UK institutions are systemically racist. Best of luck. 

Ha ha ! Thanks ! 🙂

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Ha ha ! Thanks ! 🙂

What do you think about that NHS link posted earlier? 

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What do you think about that NHS link posted earlier? 

I for one am just glad that during a pandemic with waiting lists at an all time high they are concentrating on things that really matter. Like telling white people what books to read 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, East Kent Saint said:

Er the police don’t just decide out of the blue to stop someone , they have a profile which they are working to . So I am not saying these institutions are rotten to the core just that they have a bias . It is not the fact that there are a few racists on board but that the system has developed with a bias . Not easy to identify or correct but still needs looking at. I’m sure most people go about their job without giving it thought so we feel ok . 

Given that you think there is institutional racism the police  profiling surely will be statistically correct if black people cannot obtain wealth easily so chances are they may be criminals? I don’t know the statistics of innocent v guilty but people can be very selective with statistics. BTW the Met has many bastards in it so I don’t doubt there are issues.

Edited 5 September, 2021 by whelk
Their not there tut tut

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I for one am just glad that during a pandemic with waiting lists at an all time high they are concentrating on things that really matter. Like telling white people what books to read 

Or looking at someone's skin colour and then telling them to be uncomfortable... 

[saintquin]

If we're relying on kneeling to get rid of discrimination against one let alone multiple things, we are in for a very long wait!

[East Kent Saint]

11 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

What do you think about that NHS link posted earlier? 

 Reading about peoples first hand experiences is always an eye opener , I have always read a great deal more so since retirement but would be pretty selective from their list ! It's well intended but I can't imagine many people taking any notice , probably more posters have read it on here than in the NHS.

[a1ex2001]

19 hours ago, saintquin said:

If we're relying on kneeling to get rid of discrimination against one let alone multiple things, we are in for a very long wait!

Nobody is relying on kneeling to get rid of anything but the England team kneeling is doing two things: 1) showing that the team are together and as a group reject the racists treatment of team mates and others, which is a very important message for them to send given the incredible profile they have. 2) it prompts continued discussion of the issue which keeps the debate alive and reminds everyone that while we have made a lot of progress in this area we still have a way to go.

For such a tiny gesture it has shown it’s self to be incredibly powerful.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, a1ex2001 said:

Nobody is relying on kneeling to get rid of anything but the England team kneeling is doing two things: 1) showing that the team are together and as a group reject the racists treatment of team mates and others, which is a very important message for them to send given the incredible profile they have. 2) it prompts continued discussion of the issue which keeps the debate alive and reminds everyone that while we have made a lot of progress in this area we still have a way to go.

For such a tiny gesture it has shown it’s self to be incredibly powerful.

Have you forgotten that we've made a lot of progress but that we still have a way to go then? 

[Manuel]

That NHS blog is a depressing read.  Depressing that such a misguided piece has made its way on to a bona fide NHS website.  Depressing also that the author of such a divisive piece is actually a manager and a "lead" on matters of equality.  

[saintquin]

2 hours ago, a1ex2001 said:

Nobody is relying on kneeling to get rid of anything but the England team kneeling is doing two things: 1) showing that the team are together and as a group reject the racists treatment of team mates and others, which is a very important message for them to send given the incredible profile they have. 2) it prompts continued discussion of the issue which keeps the debate alive and reminds everyone that while we have made a lot of progress in this area we still have a way to go.

For such a tiny gesture it has shown it’s self to be incredibly powerful.

Point 1, Well it is a team game so they should be together but, what if a players was pick for England but didn't want to "take a knee" ? Do you think he should or shouldn't be picked and what if that player was black? 

Plus everyone seems to have forgotten this season "taking a knee" was meant to be about all discrimination not just racism!

Point 2, It's only being talked about more by football fans on media like this. I've not once talked to anybody about kneeling other than other than on places like this.  We've been talking about racism for many years and we will still be talking about it for many more, with or without kneeling.

No one seems to be bothered about black players raising a fist while kneeling which as far as I can remember is black power not equality. 

I personally am not angry, upset or annoyed (no one should be) by players "taking a knee" as it's not hurting anyone but, lets not kid ourselves it's going to end anything or that there are no players that don't want to do it either!   

[JRM]

On 05/09/2021 at 08:06, Griffo said:

Why would you boo..?

https://senioronboarding.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/blog-dear-white-people-in-the-uk/

This utter bollocks has infiltrated most organisations in the UK and taking a knee is part of it. Anyone opposed to this sort of thinking is automatically branded a racist and it’s now well and truly found its way into our football clubs and leagues.

The players are obviously not left leaning or Marxist, but the agenda pushing this stuff daily throughout our organisations and the media certainly is. 

 

Unfortunately these people are particularly prevalent in the education sector , thinking theyre on some mission of enlightenment not teaching how to think but what to think. 

[kyle04]

31 minutes ago, JRM said:

https://senioronboarding.leadershipacademy.nhs.uk/blog-dear-white-people-in-the-uk/

Fuck me this girl's on a mission, despite rising above the white boot of oppression to a position of over-promoted pompous self importance. (in a white dominated racist country). This country at the moment seems to be falling over itself to promote "non white or whatever the correct fucking term is now" individuals. Get a proper job and grow up.

[captainchris]

6 hours ago, a1ex2001 said:

Nobody is relying on kneeling to get rid of anything but the England team kneeling is doing two things: 1) showing that the team are together and as a group reject the racists treatment of team mates and others, which is a very important message for them to send given the incredible profile they have. 2) it prompts continued discussion of the issue which keeps the debate alive and reminds everyone that while we have made a lot of progress in this area we still have a way to go.

For such a tiny gesture it has shown it’s self to be incredibly powerful.

Utter tosh… 

[SFC Forever]

On 04/09/2021 at 19:54, hypochondriac said:

Not sure what you're saying here? If England fans were doing monkey chants at their players from the stands then I'd be encouraging strong punishment against them to. But we aren't so it's not really comparable is it. 

Sometimes I wonder if you read what has been written. I will try again. 

 

So far the team has  said that they did not hear the monkey chants. What I asked is still to the point. We have anti-social fans just as other countries have. At the euros we were caught on camera doing unpleasant things. When we go to matches do we ever hear abuse aimed at  some players? Throwing plastic cups at our players was simply pathetic. We have done abusive stuff in this country and been threatened with punishment by UEFA.

Fans around the world have fought each other in recent years more than ever before. Maybe because the press are now able to tell the stories far more easily with the internet. We should put our own house in order and then our complaints would be received more favourably.

[hypochondriac]

46 minutes ago, SFC Forever said:

Sometimes I wonder if you read what has been written. I will try again. 

 

So far the team has  said that they did not hear the monkey chants. What I asked is still to the point. We have anti-social fans just as other countries have. At the euros we were caught on camera doing unpleasant things. When we go to matches do we ever hear abuse aimed at  some players? Throwing plastic cups at our players was simply pathetic. We have done abusive stuff in this country and been threatened with punishment by UEFA.

Fans around the world have fought each other in recent years more than ever before. Maybe because the press are now able to tell the stories far more easily with the internet. We should put our own house in order and then our complaints would be received more favourably.

What unpleasant things were our fans caught on camera doing at the euros that was comparable to monkey chants? Racism aimed at players from the stands is something entirely distinct from a bit of disorder outside the stadium before a game and of course if monkey chants occurred then we are fully justified in complaining and the behaviour of our fans is irrelevant to that. 

[Saint in Paradise]

I decided to delete my post as it might have been misinterpreted. 

Edited 7 September, 2021 by Saint in Paradise

[Roo1976]

On 05/09/2021 at 20:59, saintquin said:

If we're relying on kneeling to get rid of discrimination against one let alone multiple things, we are in for a very long wait!

We were getting upset at chants and abuse towards player in hungary............what happend to our own players in this years Euro Final?............short memories .

[saintquin]

6 hours ago, Roo1976 said:

We were getting upset at chants and abuse towards player in hungary............what happend to our own players in this years Euro Final?............short memories .

Not sure why you've quoted me and replied with the above but I'll reply anyway.

We should be getting upset at certain chants but I didn't hear any chants towards England players (that I could understand) in the Hungary game but, if there was, as been reported, then action needs to be taken against them.

Same with the Final. I didn't read any of the abuse made against our players so can't comment on that. What I would say though is most of the players use social media and probably boast about how many followers they have. They probably ravel about all the lovely comments they get then moan like hell when they get some bad comments. They shouldn't get racial or homophobic abuse but, they do and does that needs action taken.

[Billy the Kidd]

There was a bbc articles I read yesterday about social media abuse after the euro final, I think it said most of the abuse at England players came from the Middle East and China (not totally sure on China) but not much from the UK itself. 

[aintforever]

27 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

There was a bbc articles I read yesterday about social media abuse after the euro final, I think it said most of the abuse at England players came from the Middle East and China (not totally sure on China) but not much from the UK itself. 

What, this one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58159878

[Billy the Kidd]

13 minutes ago, aintforever said:

What, this one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58159878

Nope it was something on read on there today, that one is about a month old

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, aintforever said:

What, this one?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58159878

Probably this one: 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9964889/amp/Majority-trolls-sent-racist-abuse-Bukayo-Saka-lived-abroad.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58466849

Edited 7 September, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Billy the Kidd]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Probably this one: 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9964889/amp/Majority-trolls-sent-racist-abuse-Bukayo-Saka-lived-abroad.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58466849

Yep that’s the bbc one, thanks for finding it!

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Probably this one: 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9964889/amp/Majority-trolls-sent-racist-abuse-Bukayo-Saka-lived-abroad.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58466849

“Police arrested 11 people for sending racist social media messages after the final, with almost four times more of the criminal comments being posted by people overseas than in the UK.

However, Twitter said: "While many have quite rightly highlighted the global nature of the conversation, it is also important to acknowledge the UK was - by far - the largest country of origin for the abusive tweets we removed."

Anyway, it doesn’t really matter where the tweets came from if you are on the receiving end.

Edited 7 September, 2021 by aintforever

[Saint_clark]

Saying the UK was by far the largest country of origin is incredibly misleading as it makes it sound like the majority of tweets came from here - they didn't, not even close.

[hypochondriac]

7 hours ago, aintforever said:

“Police arrested 11 people for sending racist social media messages after the final, with almost four times more of the criminal comments being posted by people overseas than in the UK.

However, Twitter said: "While many have quite rightly highlighted the global nature of the conversation, it is also important to acknowledge the UK was - by far - the largest country of origin for the abusive tweets we removed."

Anyway, it doesn’t really matter where the tweets came from if you are on the receiving end.

It doesn't matter for the player where the tweets come from but it certainly matters if you're trying to argue that the UK is a systemically racist country and you're using these comments on social media as evidence when the majority originated outside of the UK. Certainly the way its been reported by the media is misleading at best and it seems like they have an agenda with the reporting of things like the defacing of the mural. 

"Police looking into the online abuse that followed the final say more than half of the 396 posts being investigated are from accounts overseas, with most coming out of Asia and Europe." 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Saint_clark said:

Saying the UK was by far the largest country of origin is incredibly misleading as it makes it sound like the majority of tweets came from here - they didn't, not even close.

Abusive tweets that were removed, not abusive tweets that were made. There could be a number of reasons why they couldn’t remove tweets from outside of the UK so yes it’s an incredibly misleading statement. As hypo says it’s also very relevant to the discussion about racism when you’ve got loons claiming the UK has a massive racism problem when once again the facts don’t support their ridiculous claims 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

It doesn't matter for the player where the tweets come from but it certainly matters if you're trying to argue that the UK is a systemically racist country

 

I'm not.

Edited 8 September, 2021 by aintforever

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I'm not.

Many people on your side of the argument were making that very point. It's worth pointing out the facts pest it be misinterpreted again. 

[aintforever]

27 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Many people on your side of the argument were making that very point. It's worth pointing out the facts pest it be misinterpreted again. 

Just like many on your side use "but our country is not as racist as others" as an excuse to ignore the problems we do have.

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Just like many on your side use "but our country is not as racist as others" as an excuse to ignore the problems we do have.

No its about setting the problem we do have in context and not over inflating things and wildly exaggerating in order to force through racist and discriminatory policies (or to put racists in prominent positions like the lady who wrote the NHS blog this week.)

It's never ever been about denying that racism exists. 

Edited 8 September, 2021 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

56 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

No its about setting the problem we do have in context and not over inflating things and wildly exaggerating in order to force through racist and discriminatory policies (or to put racists in prominent positions like the lady who wrote the NHS blog this week.)

It's never ever been about denying that racism exists. 

That's just bollocks.

[East Kent Saint]

22 minutes ago, aintforever said:

That's just bollocks.

Like most of this thread , constant repetition is the sign that a thread needs retiring Not that keeping on saying it makes it true.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

That's just bollocks.

 

44 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Like most of this thread , constant repetition is the sign that a thread needs retiring Not that keeping on saying it makes it true.

He's also right. Just because you dont like it doesn't make it untrue.

[StDunko]

Is it know how many of the tweets were sent via VPN's that may have masked the true country of origin?

[East Kent Saint]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

 

He's also right. Just because you dont like it doesn't make it untrue.

It’s nothing to do with liking it more that it is incorrect to take the example of a few twats on Twitter , that are so dim they couldn’t work out they might be identified , as evidence that it’s only a very small problem.

Edited 8 September, 2021 by East Kent Saint

[Turkish]

7 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

It’s nothing to do with liking it more that it is incorrect to take the example of a few twats on Twitter , that are so dim they couldn’t work out they might be identified with the rest of us.

Yep, agreed. If that was the only example then it would be a valid point. It isn't though it is.

[East Kent Saint]

14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yep, agreed. If that was the only example then it would be a valid point. It isn't though it is.

Glad we agree at last or is it a typo ?

[hypochondriac]

6 hours ago, East Kent Saint said:

It’s nothing to do with liking it more that it is incorrect to take the example of a few twats on Twitter , that are so dim they couldn’t work out they might be identified , as evidence that it’s only a very small problem.

The example I am using is the example the media were using when their front pages were festooned with this stuff. They used this racist abuse on social media as evidence that Britain is an incredibly racist and bigoted society when the very opposite is the case. It was a lie and this investigation- from the BBC no less-highlights that. 

[hypochondriac]

8 hours ago, aintforever said:

That's just bollocks.

Which bit? That the issue of racism at football has been wildly exaggerated by the media who have been in a moral panic about racists posting abuse to people online? 

That racists have been promoted to positions of power in the NHS and feel they are entitled to address a group of people based on their skin colour and ask them to feel uncomfortable? 

That no one has denied on here that racism exists? 

None of that is bollocks. 

[East Kent Saint]

1. Yep the media again going over the top as usual , we know that , parts of the Media are happy to stir it up in the other direction as well ! It soon blew over though , also as usual.

2. Not sure who you are calling racist here ? I did read that blog , I thought it was well meant but certainly not likely to “get people on board”  With a reading list longer than a degree course and taking a line that just brought the shutters down. 
 

It’s the constant repetition that is a big yawn …. 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

1. Yep the media again going over the top as usual , we know that , parts of the Media are happy to stir it up in the other direction as well ! It soon blew over though , also as usual.

2. Not sure who you are calling racist here ? I did read that blog , I thought it was well meant but certainly not likely to “get people on board”  With a reading list longer than a degree course and taking a line that just brought the shutters down. 
 

It’s the constant repetition that is a big yawn …. 

Of course the clarifications are going to keep getting repeated whilst the lies about the UK being a racist country and English football being awash with racists keep being repeated. Whilst these falsehoods still exist myself and other normal people like me will keep calling it out for what it is. I'm sorry it bores you but don't blame me. 

[aintforever]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Which bit? That the issue of racism at football has been wildly exaggerated by the media who have been in a moral panic about racists posting abuse to people online? 

That racists have been promoted to positions of power in the NHS and feel they are entitled to address a group of people based on their skin colour and ask them to feel uncomfortable? 

That no one has denied on here that racism exists? 

None of that is bollocks. 

The press always exaggerate and over-sensationalise everything, they just want to flog newspapers or get you to read their website, they don’t give a shite about pushing through any policies.

Other people exaggerate the problem because they want something done about it and know if they don’t no one will listen and nothing will happen.

[sadoldgit]

Interesting piece on Newsnight tonight about systematic racism in this country. The number of young people out of work is vastly higher than white people. False CVs were sent out with identical qualifications and experience and those with white sounding names were more likely to get a call back than the black sounding names. Still, we are a tolerant country and it is all being blown out of all proportion.

[The Kraken]

1 minute ago, sadoldgit said:

The number of young people out of work is vastly higher than white people.

Er, what?