January 2022 Transfer Window

[SambaMaverick]

I think Che is class. Can hold it up, not a bad finisher and has got an exceptional ability to pick out a pass. The best thing about him is that he's not quite good enough to get that move to the next 'level' (ie Danny Ings).

Why not get right behind him? Best striker at the club by far.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, SambaMaverick said:

I think Che is class. Can hold it up, not a bad finisher and has got an exceptional ability to pick out a pass. The best thing about him is that he's not quite good enough to get that move to the next 'level' (ie Danny Ings).

Why not get right behind him? Best striker at the club by far.

i rate him, his all round game is very good, he just needs to improve his finishing to be more consistent, just not very composed whacking it as hard as he can rather than placing it. His goal for Scotland recently was a great finish so it's in there, just needs to do it more. If he can he will be some player.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

51 minutes ago, adriansfc said:

He's come good relative to where he was but I don't think he's matched what the club hoped when they signed him. He's a solid option, ideally back up or a partner for a much better striker. But right now he's our best option and I'd be starting him with the other two on the bench. 

Brereton makes sense. I thought we might go for him over Armstrong but he's improved a lot this season. Hard to tell if he'd step up but he's done very well for Chile and he'd be cheap due to contract expiry. Wonder if we could get him in January? Broja won't be staying so only two strikers are ours. Another who can also play wide would be very handy.

Raiding the championship is our best bet when work permits are more of an issue for foreign players. Far harder to get the little known gems while at an affordable price still. Our days of signing players from Salzburg or getting the two best performers in the Dutch league are really gone. So tricky to know where we're supposed to look other than lower leagues and youth players.

I agree that Che is no world beater but he's an established premier League player now.

My point really was that it's silly to write off Armstrong when we've seen how a player coming up from the championship can improve in their second/third season

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

I agree that Che is no world beater but he's an established premier League player now.

My point really was that it's silly to write off Armstrong when we've seen how a player coming up from the championship can improve in their second/third season

I am certain we signed players like Armstrong to do well in season 1.

Waiting 3 years for our top signings to come good will likely result in relegation

[SuperSAINT]

http://sportwitness.co.uk/southampton-following-21-year-old-spaniard-5-goals-7-assists-far-scout-watches-score-double/ 

[sambosa75]

42 minutes ago, SambaMaverick said:

I think Che is class. Can hold it up, not a bad finisher and has got an exceptional ability to pick out a pass. The best thing about him is that he's not quite good enough to get that move to the next 'level' (ie Danny Ings).

Why not get right behind him? Best striker at the club by far.

Hi Che.  Great to have you posting on here.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

38 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I am certain we signed players like Armstrong to do well in season 1.

Waiting 3 years for our top signings to come good will likely result in relegation

Our entire model is to sign players who will come good eventually but not necessarily straight away. The only player I can think of in our current team who has hit their peak ability straight away is McCarthy. Some been thrown into the team at first but only Tino and KWP have actually made a spot their own and avoided dropping to the bench for a while

[DT]

15 minutes ago, Ex Lion Tamer said:

Our entire model is to sign players who will come good eventually but not necessarily straight away. The only player I can think of in our current team who has hit their peak ability straight away is McCarthy. Some been thrown into the team at first but only Tino and KWP have actually made a spot their own and avoided dropping to the bench for a while

McCarthy 'peak ability'

Uhuh

[Ex Lion Tamer]

25 minutes ago, DT said:

McCarthy 'peak ability'

Uhuh

I didn't say it was a high level of ability!

[HarvSFC]

We've seen strikers like Carrillo, McBurnie, Brewster, Joelinton, Haller, Solanke, Locadia, Kean, Tosun, Andre Gray (good goal last night) and Cutrone move for big money/similar fees to Adams/Armstrong in recent years. There's probably a lot more as well, but there's a lot of duds there alone, who are all worse than our two. It's just that other clubs can afford to make these mistakes, where there's a lot of pressure that we need to have every signing come in and play to a certain level, which is again due to a lack of resources.

[Hodgey]

Che will always be held back by his inability to use his left foot, he’s also poor in the air. He can be very instinctive (on his right foot) and should be good for 8-10 pl goals a season. I’d put Armstrong in the same bracket (although he can use both feet, he’s a little blunt in that he always shoots no matter what). In itself that’s enough to stay up - but it requires a tight defence and goals coming from elsewhere - which is a problem for us.

[Chez]

At the moment we have some variety up front, but do we have players that can create their own goals from nothing, make top class defenders look like mugs every now and then, or take that one solitary chance in the whole game? The Prem tends to demand that, otherwise you have to bomb forward in greater numbers to get goals and that leaves you open at the back.  

It is what it is. We have brought in the best we can and by and large most fans get behind all of them. I said it on the Liverpool thread that they actually get away with far less criticism than defenders and keepers, despite perhaps making as many, if not more errors. Tella, Broja and Armstrong have only been here five minutes, so we are always going to cut them some slack.

Broja seems to offer strength and reasonable pace, his finishing has been good, but the sample size is pretty small. For me, he is the only one that has some stand out characteristics (combination of strength and pace) that opponents fear. Che is not fast, but he holds the ball up well at times and has a great right foot. He's very middle of the road. At his best, he can lead the line and score worldies, at his worst he is a non entity. I wonder if he is actually  taking enough shots in games. 

Armstrong is a little lightweight and doesn't have electric pace, but he has great close control and dribbling ability. His finishing hasn't been great, but again, the sample size is small. His issue is that without the strength or pace, he needs a bit more space, otherwise he doesn't have time to set his feet to shoot before a defender ruins things. He is so similar to Ings in style, but he just needs to be that fraction sharper and then maybe the goals will come. Once on a roll he might be similarly unstoppable as Ings was. Maybe.

Tella obviously has the pace, dribbling skills and tricks, but we've seen nothing in the way of finishing. He takes more risks, but that can be good and bad. The sample size is very small, and game time will be an issue unless the manager gets end product out of him. Defenders will always fear pace, so that is a great weapon. If he can demonstrate some finishing ability and composure then the sky may be the limit.

As Wenger said, we always think our wife is more beautiful, and you need to be careful not to overate your own players, but it does look like the are reasonable options/pairings available to Ralph that can keep us up. 

 

[TWar]

5 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I am certain we signed players like Armstrong to do well in season 1.

Waiting 3 years for our top signings to come good will likely result in relegation

No one is saying three years. He has had 3 months or so. Even the best need a little while to settle. Liverpool was a poor game for him but he gets a lot of chances, goals will come soon.

[TWar]

2 hours ago, Chez said:

At the moment we have some variety up front, but do we have players that can create their own goals from nothing, make top class defenders look like mugs every now and then, or take that one solitary chance in the whole game? The Prem tends to demand that, otherwise you have to bomb forward in greater numbers to get goals and that leaves you open at the back.  

It is what it is. We have brought in the best we can and by and large most fans get behind all of them. I said it on the Liverpool thread that they actually get away with far less criticism than defenders and keepers, despite perhaps making as many, if not more errors. Tella, Broja and Armstrong have only been here five minutes, so we are always going to cut them some slack.

Broja seems to offer strength and reasonable pace, his finishing has been good, but the sample size is pretty small. For me, he is the only one that has some stand out characteristics (combination of strength and pace) that opponents fear. Che is not fast, but he holds the ball up well at times and has a great right foot. He's very middle of the road. At his best, he can lead the line and score worldies, at his worst he is a non entity. I wonder if he is actually  taking enough shots in games. 

Armstrong is a little lightweight and doesn't have electric pace, but he has great close control and dribbling ability. His finishing hasn't been great, but again, the sample size is small. His issue is that without the strength or pace, he needs a bit more space, otherwise he doesn't have time to set his feet to shoot before a defender ruins things. He is so similar to Ings in style, but he just needs to be that fraction sharper and then maybe the goals will come. Once on a roll he might be similarly unstoppable as Ings was. Maybe.

Tella obviously has the pace, dribbling skills and tricks, but we've seen nothing in the way of finishing. He takes more risks, but that can be good and bad. The sample size is very small, and game time will be an issue unless the manager gets end product out of him. Defenders will always fear pace, so that is a great weapon. If he can demonstrate some finishing ability and composure then the sky may be the limit.

As Wenger said, we always think our wife is more beautiful, and you need to be careful not to overate your own players, but it does look like the are reasonable options/pairings available to Ralph that can keep us up. 

 

A lot of good points in here but do disagree with a couple of things. I don't think the prem demands players who can " create their own goals from nothing, make top class defenders look like mugs every now and then, or take that one solitary chance in the whole game", I would argue the only team outside the top 8 or so best teams in the country that has that is maybe Villa with Ings and he is constantly injured. Maybe Bamford too I guess.

Regarding Che, his best strengths are link up, passing, strength and quality on the ball. He makes a fine second striker. Regarding Armstrong, you say he has average pace but he is the fastest player in the premier league this season so if he doesn't have electric pace I really don't know who does - https://www.888sport.com/blog/fastest-players-in-premier-league

Edited 30 November, 2021 by TWar

[Chez]

4 hours ago, TWar said:

A lot of good points in here but do disagree with a couple of things. I don't think the prem demands players who can " create their own goals from nothing, make top class defenders look like mugs every now and then, or take that one solitary chance in the whole game", I would argue the only team outside the top 8 or so best teams in the country that has that is maybe Villa with Ings and he is constantly injured. Maybe Bamford too I guess.

 

You are trying to tell me that Zaha, Saint-Maximin and Raphina don't create their own goals?  Or the likes of Jimenez and Vardy don't take the one chance they get? 

 

Goals almost `out of nothing' make a massive difference. The prem demands it if you want to win games (with few chances or when you played badly) and be successful. Maybe not if you want to come 17th. 

[TWar]

8 minutes ago, Chez said:

You are trying to tell me that Zaha, Saint-Maximin and Raphina don't create their own goals?  Or the likes of Jimenez and Vardy don't take the one chance they get? 

 

Goals almost `out of nothing' make a massive difference. The prem demands it if you want to win games (with few chances or when you played badly) and be successful. Maybe not if you want to come 17th. 

I wasn't really counting them as forwards, I think in our system they would all be more attacking mids. The only one of them who plays up top at all is ASM and tbh he doesn't score many at all really.

Vardy plays for Leicester who I definitely include in the top 8 sides. Jiminez misses a lot of sitters tbh. He's a decent player but I don't think he is particularly far ahead of the likes of Che and Armstrong 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

Jiminez misses a lot of sitters tbh. He's a decent player but I don't think he is particularly far ahead of the likes of Che and Armstrong 

🙃

[verlaine1979]

7 minutes ago, TWar said:

Jiminez misses a lot of sitters tbh. He's a decent player but I don't think he is particularly far ahead of the likes of Che and Armstrong 

Oh, come on. I know you're loyal, but this is absurd.

[TWar]

Just now, verlaine1979 said:

Oh, come on. I know you're loyal, but this is absurd.

Jiminez is better, don't get me wrong, but he isn't that far ahead. Especially since coming back from injury

[Chez]

Just now, TWar said:

I wasn't really counting them as forwards, I think in our system they would all be more attacking mids. The only one of them who plays up top at all is ASM and tbh he doesn't score many at all really.

Vardy plays for Leicester who I definitely include in the top 8 sides. Jiminez misses a lot of sitters tbh. He's a decent player but I don't think he is particularly far ahead of the likes of Che and Armstrong 

they are forwards. They play forward, not in the middle, not at the back and not in goal. What has `our' system got to do with anything. You create straw men right left and centre. Another is you top 8. Its an imaginary criteria you have created for no reason other then to help strengthen your weak argument. The fact is, you need (the Prem demands) top quality strikers to be successful (or mask limitations elsewhere). 

"Jimenez misses a lot of sitters and Che is a similar level." I think that's the end of this discussion. Your wife is no doubt more beautiful.

[verlaine1979]

5 minutes ago, TWar said:

Jiminez is better, don't get me wrong, but he isn't that far ahead. Especially since coming back from injury

I look forward to the day either Che or Armstrong turns a center back pair inside out the way he did scoring the winner against us.

Jimenez has the technique to play as a lone striker, while Che and Armstrong look utterly lost without a partner to share responsibility and the ball. It's not even close.

[TWar]

Just now, Chez said:

they are forwards. They play forward, not in the middle, not at the back and not in goal. What has `our' system got to do with anything. You create straw men right left and centre. Another is you top 8. Its an imaginary criteria you have created for no reason other then to help strengthen your weak argument. The fact is, you need (the Prem demands) top quality strikers to be successful (or mask limitations elsewhere). 

"Jimenez misses a lot of sitters and Che is a similar level." I think that's the end of this discussion. Your wife is no doubt more beautiful.

I didn't create anything like a strawman. I made the original claim that teams outside of the "Europe challengers" generally don't have strikers who regularly make their own chances and change games.

You mentioned a few attacking mids, a player who plays for a side that finished 5th last season, and players who don't fit that criteria.

My point was the prem doesn't "demand" top quality strikers, Europe demands it so teams in contention for that have it (ie the top 8), most mid table and below sides have forwards a similar level to ours.

Regarding Che vs Jiminez, Che's biggest weakness is finishing and he has underperformed xg by 0.17. Jiminez has underperformed by 0.39. I think the "our player is better" thing is a thing of the past as a lot of people only see opposition players in highlights which make them look better. Jiminez has not been consistently finishing this season at all.

[TWar]

1 minute ago, verlaine1979 said:

I look forward to the day either Che or Armstrong turns a center back pair inside out the way he did scoring the winner against us.

Jimenez has the technique to play as a lone striker, while Che and Armstrong look utterly lost without a partner to share responsibility and the ball. It's not even close.

Playing as a lone striker is not necessarily harder than playing as a pair, you get an extra attacking mid to accommodate mostly. Jimenez' goal against us where Bednarek was dreadful was no more impressive than Che against Watford or Armstrong against villa.

[verlaine1979]

Just now, TWar said:

Playing as a lone striker is not necessarily harder than playing as a pair, you get an extra attacking mid to accommodate mostly. Jimenez' goal against us where Bednarek was dreadful was no more impressive than Che against Watford or Armstrong against villa.

My point is that Jimenez can ping in a worldie from twenty yard too, but neither of ours have the combination of strength, close control and composure that got him the winner against us. 

Out of interest, can you think of any unassailably great strikers from the past few years who play as part of a traditional central pair?

[CB Fry]

63 shots vs zero, 30 on target vs zero. 20 goals to nil. 86% possession.

What a load of bollocks.

[TWar]

34 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

My point is that Jimenez can ping in a worldie from twenty yard too, but neither of ours have the combination of strength, close control and composure that got him the winner against us. 

Out of interest, can you think of any unassailably great strikers from the past few years who play as part of a traditional central pair?

I think Che has the same degree of strength, composure and close control as Jimenez. His finishing could use work, but this season so could Jimenez as shown by his underperformance of xG.

Luis Suarez has been amazing in a front two for Atletico Madrid as has Griezmann, Joao Felix looks well on his way too. Werner was great for Leipzig in a front two, Ings for us was incredible a couple of years back, Lautero Martinez was pretty excellent for inter last season, Haaland played well in a front two for Salzburg (and continues to excel when BVB play a 4312 or 3412), as did Daka. Atalanta play a front two and Zapata looks pretty quality in that. To be honest, it's less that bad strikers play in a front two and more that front twos aren't super common anymore.

Edited 30 November, 2021 by TWar

[Matthew Le God]

6 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

63 shots vs zero, 30 on target vs zero. 20 goals to nil. 86% possession.

What a load of bollocks.

None of them!

[Chez]

30 minutes ago, TWar said:

I didn't create anything like a strawman. I made the original claim that teams outside of the "Europe challengers" generally don't have strikers who regularly make their own chances and change games.

You mentioned a few attacking mids, a player who plays for a side that finished 5th last season, and players who don't fit that criteria.

My point was the prem doesn't "demand" top quality strikers, Europe demands it so teams in contention for that have it (ie the top 8), most mid table and below sides have forwards a similar level to ours.

Regarding Che vs Jiminez, Che's biggest weakness is finishing and he has underperformed xg by 0.17. Jiminez has underperformed by 0.39. I think the "our player is better" thing is a thing of the past as a lot of people only see opposition players in highlights which make them look better. Jiminez has not been consistently finishing this season at all.

what criteria? When I said the "prem demands players that can do x,y,z..."  I didn't set any criteria. I didn't even mention strikers. You did: "got to be a striker from a bottom 12 side, who only plays down the middle. I repeat, the Prem demands players that can do these things for a side to be successful.

Jimenez is working his way back from a serious injury. Its taken a month or two, but assessing him as a player based purely on this season is yet another straw man you have created. Why focus just on this season, especially when there are special circumstances. Criteria you have created to help your argument. 

[TWar]

6 minutes ago, Chez said:

what criteria? When I said the "prem demands players that can do x,y,z..."  I didn't set any criteria. I didn't even mention strikers. You did: "got to be a striker from a bottom 12 side, who only plays down the middle. I repeat, the Prem demands players that can do these things for a side to be successful.

Jimenez is working his way back from a serious injury. Its taken a month or two, but assessing him as a player based purely on this season is yet another straw man you have created. Why focus just on this season, especially when there are special circumstances. Criteria you have created to help your argument. 

You said the prem demands strikers can do x, y, and z. I said that most strikers in the prem are no better at x, y, and z than ours are (especially outside of the top 8 ). You then listed a number of attacking mids, a top player at a top side, and a couple of players who are arguably not that much better than ours. Which I disagreed with.

I understand Jimenez is recovering from a serious injury, but it is also a serious injury a number of players don't return to full quality after returning from. I will wait and see how long it takes him/ if he ever gets back to the level he was two years ago.

Also, in the least rude way possible, I don't think you are using "strawman" correctly. It means to construct an opponents view and then argue against that. I haven't constructed your view at all. You said you believe the prem demands x, y, and z. This implies you won't make it in the prem if you don't have those things, or aren't prem level. This is inaccurate as the majority of prem forwards are no better than ours in that area.

Edited 30 November, 2021 by TWar

[Roo1976]

6 hours ago, TWar said:

A lot of good points in here but do disagree with a couple of things. I don't think the prem demands players who can " create their own goals from nothing, make top class defenders look like mugs every now and then, or take that one solitary chance in the whole game", I would argue the only team outside the top 8 or so best teams in the country that has that is maybe Villa with Ings and he is constantly injured. Maybe Bamford too I guess.

Regarding Che, his best strengths are link up, passing, strength and quality on the ball. He makes a fine second striker. Regarding Armstrong, you say he has average pace but he is the fastest player in the premier league this season so if he doesn't have electric pace I really don't know who does - https://www.888sport.com/blog/fastest-players-in-premier-league

That picture of Armstrong isnt our forward its the other one Stu and that looks like a shot against the blades with ramsdale in goal.

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, Roo1976 said:

That picture of Armstrong isnt our forward its the other one Stu and that looks like a shot against the blades with ramsdale in goal.

Yeah poor picture choice from that blog. The league made the same mistake in one of their fantasy promotional videos.

It is quoted from here:https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/premier-league-fastest-player-traore-24834371 so it is the right player, just a bad choice of pic.

[Dman]

12 hours ago, TWar said:

Jiminez misses a lot of sitters tbh. He's a decent player but I don't think he is particularly far ahead of the likes of Che and Armstrong 

Fuck me, you really do post some shite. 

[TWar]

8 minutes ago, Dman said:

Fuck me, you really do post some shite. 

Ralph is a worse manager than the guy managing San Marino, and Saints are in a worse position than pompey level shite?

Wouldn't pull at that thread mate, your views were so nonsense the mods had to assume you were trolling and ban you.

[JustinSFC]

12 hours ago, TWar said:

Regarding Che vs Jiminez, Che's biggest weakness is finishing and he has underperformed xg by 0.17. Jiminez has underperformed by 0.39. I think the "our player is better" thing is a thing of the past as a lot of people only see opposition players in highlights which make them look better. Jiminez has not been consistently finishing this season at all.

^ lol

Lolol

[TWar]

Just now, JustinSFC said:

^ lol

Lolol

It's a real shame on this forum when you provide reasoning and evidence behind your opinions and the best people can respond with is this. Like fine, disagree, but it would be nice if you put in at least a little effort to explain as to why.

[JustinSFC]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

It's a real shame on this forum when you provide reasoning and evidence behind your opinions and the best people can respond with is this. Like fine, disagree, but it would be nice if you put in at least a little effort to explain as to why.

You're arguing Che is a better player than Jimenez on the strength of xg 0.22 difference.

If it was a straight swap between Che and Jimenez I'd take that without hesitation.

xg is utter bollocks and it means nothing.

[TWar]

6 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

You're arguing Che is a better player than Jimenez on the strength of xg 0.22 difference.

If it was a straight swap between Che and Jimenez I'd take that without hesitation.

xg is utter bollocks and it means nothing.

None of this is an argument. You are just saying you don't like xG, again with little reasoning.

Also I never said Che was better. I said Jimenez isn't "particularly far ahead" of him and Armstrong. I would take Jimenez for Che too, but the difference isn't that stark. The gaps at attacking mid (Neto is miles beyond anything we have, as are Podence and Adama) are much more telling.

Edited 1 December, 2021 by TWar

[JustinSFC]

4 hours ago, TWar said:

None of this is an argument. You are just saying you don't like xG, again with little reasoning.

Also I never said Che was better. I said Jimenez isn't "particularly far ahead" of him and Armstrong. I would take Jimenez for Che too, but the difference isn't that stark. The gaps at attacking mid (Neto is miles beyond anything we have, as are Podence and Adama) are much more telling.

Fucking wonderful.

[Matthew Le God]

13 minutes ago, JustinSFC said:

Fucking wonderful.

Do you formulate your rebuttals with crayons?

[Saint Garrett]

So no rumours then...

[Toadhall Saint]

1 hour ago, Saint Garrett said:

So no rumours then...

Rumour has it the jiminez is better than Che - so nope.

[S-Clarke]

20 hours ago, Chez said:

You are trying to tell me that Zaha, Saint-Maximin and Raphina don't create their own goals?  Or the likes of Jimenez and Vardy don't take the one chance they get? 

 

Goals almost `out of nothing' make a massive difference. The prem demands it if you want to win games (with few chances or when you played badly) and be successful. Maybe not if you want to come 17th. 

I'm totally with you on the goals out of nothing argument. And we don't have anyone in our squad who seems capable, they all need 2 or 3 attempts and that's not sustainable and it becomes incredibly frustrating to watch.

Ings was an example of someone who could get you a goal out of nothing. We were under the cosh against Burnley, 2-0 down at home, and he does Ben Mee on the turn and puts it away into the bottom corner - no one created it for him, he made that. Similar against Spurs back in 2018, flick around Toby and into the corner.

I do often look at our forward line and wonder how a premier league team, with the money we've received, have managed to get ourselves into such a pickle of a mish mash of abilities in the final third. They all seem nice enough lads but there's no star quality to any of them.

Not sure how we fix that really, we need to be lucky scouting wise and we also have to spend some $$. Raphinia and St Maximin weren't cheap, those sorts of players never will be.

Edited 1 December, 2021 by S-Clarke

[verlaine1979]

11 hours ago, TWar said:

None of this is an argument. You are just saying you don't like xG, again with little reasoning.

Also I never said Che was better. I said Jimenez isn't "particularly far ahead" of him and Armstrong. I would take Jimenez for Che too, but the difference isn't that stark. The gaps at attacking mid (Neto is miles beyond anything we have, as are Podence and Adama) are much more telling.

To clarify, before tonight's games, the xg stats said that Jimenez should've scored 0.39 more goals and Che should've scored 0.17 more goals? Considering the actual goals scored at the time were only 3 and 2 respectively, is that fractional underperformance meaningful?

[TWar]

13 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

To clarify, before tonight's games, the xg stats said that Jimenez should've scored 0.39 more goals and Che should've scored 0.17 more goals? Considering the actual goals scored at the time were only 3 and 2 respectively, is that fractional underperformance meaningful?

Not really. Their finishing has been pretty similar. And for Che, finishing is his worst attribute...

[verlaine1979]

21 minutes ago, TWar said:

Not really. Their finishing has been pretty similar. And for Che, finishing is his worst attribute...

And yet at the time, Jimenez had scored 50% more goals than Che. You see where I'm going with this?

[TWar]

44 minutes ago, verlaine1979 said:

And yet at the time, Jimenez had scored 50% more goals than Che. You see where I'm going with this?

Not really. They are similar quality (although Jimenez is still slightly better, and was a reasonable amount better before the injury), Jimenez had more chances, partly due to easier fixtures and partly because our attacking mids are lower quality. Also Che's qualities are a lot more impressive deeper in the build up.

Now Che is level on goals and his xG difference is now positive. Showing his skill tbh.

Edited 1 December, 2021 by TWar

[verlaine1979]

6 minutes ago, TWar said:

This season? As Che is level this season. Or across his career? As Che is over 5 years younger.

I just meant that yesterday, when we were started this discussion about xg underperformance for the season, Jimenez had scored 3 league goals and Che had scored 2. One (hugely misleading) way of stating that would have been to say that RJ had scored 50% more goals than CA.

I'm not against using data in football, but since the game is so chaotic and unrepeatable, I suspect that it's only useful in player assessment on a timescale measured in seasons rather than games. Which means that on some level, you also have to use qualitative judgement to make up for the deficiencies in data - which I guess is why, having seen both of them play, most people here are pretty confident in their judgement that Jimenez is a vastly more gifted player than Adams.

Edited 1 December, 2021 by verlaine1979

[TWar]

Just now, verlaine1979 said:

I just meant that yesterday, when we were started this discussion about xg underperformance for the season, Jimenez had scored 3 league goals and Che had scored 2. One (hugely misleading) way of stating that would have been to say that RJ had scored 50% more goals than CA.

I'm not against using data in football, but since the game is so chaotic and unrepeatable, I suspect that it's only useful in player assessment on a timescale measured in seasons rather than games. Which means that on some level, you also have to use qualitative judgement to make up for the deficiencies in data - which I guess is why, having seen both of them play, most people here are pretty confident in their judgement that Jimenez is vastly more gifted player than Adams.

Yeah I read it again and realised what you ment and edited. Apologies, it's late and my reading comprehension is a bit lower!

[Minsk]

On 30/11/2021 at 21:22, Chez said:

You are trying to tell me that Zaha, Saint-Maximin and Raphina don't create their own goals?  Or the likes of Jimenez and Vardy don't take the one chance they get? 

 

Goals almost `out of nothing' make a massive difference. The prem demands it if you want to win games (with few chances or when you played badly) and be successful. Maybe not if you want to come 17th. 

No striker scores every chance they get, especially when they only get the one in a match. Both Vardy and Jiminez missed chances they should have buried last night. To my mind, Jiminez's winning goal at St Mary's earlier in the season was more to do with Bednarek's failure to get a tackle in, and Salisu slipping on his arse, than any great skill from the striker. Jiminez certainly didn't 'turn them inside out'.

As for creating their own goals, yes Zaha, St Max and Raphina are capable of doing so. As is Che (although not the same extent as Ings did for us). Heck, I've even seen Redmond create his own goals (not saying he is on the same level as the 3 above). That said, some 'flair' players do seem to 'flatter to deceive'. For example, for all his speed, skill and flair St Max only has 10 goals in 70 appearances for Newcastle and Adama Traore only 10 in 145 for Wolves. Could we do with better? Absolutely yes. Do we have to have better to survive? Well, we didn't have better last season and were okay.

[TWar]

7 minutes ago, Minsk said:

No striker scores every chance they get, especially when they only get the one in a match. Both Vardy and Jiminez missed chances they should have buried last night. To my mind, Jiminez's winning goal at St Mary's earlier in the season was more to do with Bednarek's failure to get a tackle in, and Salisu slipping on his arse, than any great skill from the striker. Jiminez certainly didn't 'turn them inside out'.

As for creating their own goals, yes Zaha, St Max and Raphina are capable of doing so. As is Che (although not the same extent as Ings did for us). Heck, I've even seen Redmond create his own goals (not saying he is on the same level as the 3 above). That said, some 'flair' players do seem to 'flatter to deceive'. For example, for all his speed, skill and flair St Max only has 10 goals in 70 appearances for Newcastle and Adama Traore only 10 in 145 for Wolves. Could we do with better? Absolutely yes. Do we have to have better to survive? Well, we didn't have better last season and were okay.

This is a much more eloquent way of saying what I was trying to get at. That and Jimenez not being quite the same quality after his injury.