Lyanco

[Doctoroncall]

3 hours ago, TWar said:

Problem is, he might be a 4th choice CB but Vestergaard sure as hell wasn't. This means our general quality of squad has dramatically decreased in an area we were already having difficulties in. I'm also not saying this signing will relegate us, I am very positive about the team and think we will likely finish comfortably mid table but if we keep depleting the squad by selling first team staples and replacing them with dross we are only moving in one direction.

I think terms like "made up your mind" are reductive. I assessed how good he was based on multiple things and decided that he is very likely to be a sharp downgrade on Vestergaard. He might not be, but he probably will be, and that is a problem. I will continue to assess his quality and change my mind if he does anything to disprove it but as it stands he has a long way to go to look anything other than a massive cheap out.

Also not too "wound up", except by the guy calling me a dickhead out the blue, that was uncalled for.

It's certainly not a positive start for him but early days as it was with the others, and lets not forget he is regarded as a fourth choice CB.  I wouldn't say the general quality of the CBs has dramatically decreased because of one regular player leaving and a CB joining or are you saying the other players have regressed?

[bennyev]

Cut corners. Bank 28m. Sign a dud. Make Romeu play there. 
 

The new Southampton way.

[Turkish]

Remember when the hilariously nicknamed Pelle-end was ironically cheered on his home debut. Described as a statue on here by some. He turned out alright. I'm pretty sure that despite Turd-ics great start it wasn't long before him being too slow for the premier league was quickly exposed by our forum experts. We've already done Mane, some on here wanted him sent back where he came from after the last time we played away in the cup at Sheffield United.

[tajjuk]

Vestergaard was bang average if not bad for most of his time with us and made countless mistakes as bad as Lyanco did, he had one good 6 month spell, when the whole team was playing well and I still think his very good passing ability somewhat papered over the cracks of his defending.

Both Stephens and Salisu have stepped up, which means Lyanco is under no pressure to adapt and start performing right away. Adjusting to the PL from Serie A is probably one of the tougher changes in league styles and bustling underdog Championship side who were clearly up for it in a cup was probably a tougher test in terms of style than he was expecting. 

Think he'll be fine given some time, I have more trust in the scouting department than 3-4 years ago. 

[Mr X]

What did we see in lyanco that no other club sees? Or did we just see a cheap deal an offer to good to refuse? 

[macca155]

I didn't think he was that bad. Yes he made some mistakes, but he also made some good tackles, and his passing was excellent.

One thing I noticed was that he is quite pacey for a CH. Had the look of a defensive midfielder to me.

Don't get me wrong he needs time to get use to English football and our system, but give him a chance.

[david in sweden]

33 minutes ago, tajjuk said:

Vestergaard was bang average if not bad for most of his time with us and made countless mistakes as bad as Lyanco did, he had one good 6 month spell, when the whole team was playing well and I still think his very good passing ability somewhat papered over the cracks of his defending.

Both Stephens and Salisu have stepped up, which means Lyanco is under no pressure to adapt and start performing right away. Adjusting to the PL from Serie A is probably one of the tougher changes in league styles and bustling underdog Championship side who were clearly up for it in a cup was probably a tougher test in terms of style than he was expecting. 

Think he'll be fine given some time, I have more trust in the scouting department than 3-4 years ago. 

Agree 100%.  

I've always maintained that even " average players "  tend to look good  in a successful side, and the Prem. is another standard in many ways.

Vestergaard was outstanding for that early season spell last season, but overall he could hardly be rated as " better than average ". 

The normal  " physical tackles " that are part of the game at Prem. level might get a yellow card - or worse in other part of the World.

It has to be said that Oli McBurnie has always been " a handful to cope with" , and still wouldn't be out of place in the Prem. 

Perhaps good for Lyanco to discover what " the English game " can be like, as he had a torrid time against the Blades' strikers. 

Good coaching will (hopefully) get him upto standard, but meantime (during Stephens' absence) we may have found  good CB cover in Romeu.

 

[TWar]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Remember when the hilariously nicknamed Pelle-end was ironically cheered on his home debut. Described as a statue on here by some. He turned out alright. I'm pretty sure that despite Turd-ics great start it wasn't long before him being too slow for the premier league was quickly exposed by our forum experts. We've already done Mane, some on here wanted him sent back where he came from after the last time we played away in the cup at Sheffield United.

Pelle, Tadic and Mane had been impressive before joining saints though and were highly rated. Don't know why people act like a players career begins the moment they sign for Saints...

[skintsaint]

16 minutes ago, TWar said:

Pelle, Tadic and Mane had been impressive before joining saints though and were highly rated. Don't know why people act like a players career begins the moment they sign for Saints...

Must have hated us signing Chris Marsden then.

[Saint Martini]

8 minutes ago, TWar said:

Pelle, Tadic and Mane had been impressive before joining saints though and were highly rated. Don't know why people act like a players career begins the moment they sign for Saints...

Mane came from a smaller league then Lyanco so its hard to say if he had been more impressive. Pelle hade pretty much failed at every club until he got to Feyenoord when he was already 27 years old. Impressive? Sure if you judge him by just the two seasons at Feyenoord, otherwise not so much. As Turkish said both of them didn't exactly play at the top of their game in the first few matches.

Now back to Lyanco. Judging by the highlights he was downright awful. But his opponent for the day was perhaps one of the more extreme examples of a physical forward in English football atm. A more "European" forward would probably have suited him better. Give him time to settle. He's 3rd choice for the coming months so its not like he'll have to perform on the pitch week in week out right now anyway.

[TWar]

4 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Must have hated us signing Chris Marsden then.

There will always be examples of poorly rated players working out if you go back far enough, Bertrand is arguably another. Unfortunately more likely he ends up like Carillo, hoedt, Lemina et al. who all weren't rated at their old club and all quickly showed why. 

[TWar]

27 minutes ago, Saint Martini said:

Mane came from a smaller league then Lyanco so its hard to say if he had been more impressive. Pelle hade pretty much failed at every club until he got to Feyenoord when he was already 27 years old. Impressive? Sure if you judge him by just the two seasons at Feyenoord, otherwise not so much. As Turkish said both of them didn't exactly play at the top of their game in the first few matches.

Now back to Lyanco. Judging by the highlights he was downright awful. But his opponent for the day was perhaps one of the more extreme examples of a physical forward in English football atm. A more "European" forward would probably have suited him better. Give him time to settle. He's 3rd choice for the coming months so its not like he'll have to perform on the pitch week in week out right now anyway.

Mane played in Europe though, smaller league but he did impress on a bigger scale. Pelle did score a tonne of goals at Feyenoord. He was highly rated, if a late bloomer. Also, people somewhat look back at Pelle with rose-tinted glasses, he was decent for us but nowhere near Tadic or Mane imo. 

Im not down on Lyanco because of one game, poor starts are perfectly normal. I'm down on him because he wasn't rated as good in the first place. If he returns to his torino form then he is still way below what we need even as a squad player. That's the problem with waiting for him to adapt, the point he was before the change wasn't high enough anyway. 

Also clubs like Sheffield United like to think of themselves as the most physical but they aren't, they are the most physical compared to their skill level. Players like Lukaku, Calvert-Lewin, Ronaldo, and even lower in the league players like Barnes/woods, maupay, and jimenez (and Adams for us) are just as good at using their strength to influence a CB, its just less noteworthy as they are also talented on the ball. If he is being smashed by Mcburnie it's a very bad sign, as Mcburnie is not good. 

Edited 23 September, 2021 by TWar

[Saint Troy]

1 hour ago, Mr X said:

What did we see in lyanco that no other club sees? Or did we just see a cheap deal an offer to good to refuse? 

There will be times that's true but cant it be said of every player we've ever signed too. Livramento, Van Dijk, Alderwereild.... Niemi.... can go back and back.

 

[TWar]

1 minute ago, Saint Troy said:

There will be times that's true but cant it be said of every player we've ever signed too. Livramento, Van Dijk, Alderwereild.... Niemi.... can go back and back.

 

Livramento was promised starting immediately, which a lot of big clubs wouldn't do but it is still a massive coup. VvD was only proven in the Scottish league. Alderweireld was only a loan. Can't remember Neimis exact situation but there usually is a reason. Also sometimes we can punt above our weight and make a superb signing, Livramento proves that. Sometimes we can massively cheap out too though... 

[Saint Troy]

9 minutes ago, TWar said:

Livramento was promised starting immediately, which a lot of big clubs wouldn't do but it is still a massive coup. VvD was only proven in the Scottish league. Alderweireld was only a loan. Can't remember Neimis exact situation but there usually is a reason. Also sometimes we can punt above our weight and make a superb signing, Livramento proves that. Sometimes we can massively cheap out too though... 

all im saying really is that every deal we make we must think is an offer too good to refuse, there's a myriad of factors around that and some of them include an admittance that the player isnt the perfect one but right at that time. The inference from the post I quoted was that there is no way any other club would want him - i suppose that is different to the people i mention in some ways but I guess overall i'm happy with the way recruitment has moved recently and so happy to let them buy who they see fits - i can be sure they've thought about it more than i have and even if we see risks i cant see that the club don't too but still it works as a deal. Perhaps this does mean we saw him as a cheap option but perhaps that doesnt matter at all. I do know they wont be cursing his signing after one performance.

[whelk]

3 hours ago, Turkish said:

Remember when the hilariously nicknamed Pelle-end was ironically cheered on his home debut. Described as a statue on here by some. He turned out alright. I'm pretty sure that despite Turd-ics great start it wasn't long before him being too slow for the premier league was quickly exposed by our forum experts. We've already done Mane, some on here wanted him sent back where he came from after the last time we played away in the cup at Sheffield United.

Using twats on here is not a useful barometer. Although presumably some sages were also quick to write off Carillo,Hoedt, Ramirez who can rightly say they called it early and told you so.

[Patrick Bateman]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Using twats on here is not a useful barometer. Although presumably some sages were also quick to write off Carillo,Hoedt, Ramirez who can rightly say they called it early and told you so.

Ramirez was too clever for the rest of the team and they couldn't spot his runs, or something ... 

 

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Ramirez was too clever for the rest of the team and they couldn't spot his runs, or something ... 

 

Remember when Papa Waigo was too clever for the team and they couldn't pick out his runs.

[Turkish]

35 minutes ago, whelk said:

Using twats on here is not a useful barometer. Although presumably some sages were also quick to write off Carillo,Hoedt, Ramirez who can rightly say they called it early and told you so.

I maintain Ramirez was a class player and CLEARLY had talent, remember that VIlla game!

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, TWar said:

There will always be examples of poorly rated players working out if you go back far enough, Bertrand is arguably another.  

Is that unrated Ryan Bertrand who by the time we signed him had won international caps at,under 17, 18,19,20, 21’ & senior level, represented GB at the Olympics, and won the champions league. That one? 

 

 

[Nordic Saint]

4 hours ago, tajjuk said:

Vestergaard was bang average if not bad for most of his time with us

He's the same at Leicester.

[CB Fry]

29 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Remember when Papa Waigo was too clever for the team and they couldn't pick out his runs.

It's always important to remember that a central defender who can't cope with the intensity of The Championship will probably do really well in the Premier League because you get more time on the ball or something.

[TWar]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Is that unrated Ryan Bertrand who by the time we signed him had won international caps at,under 17, 18,19,20, 21’ & senior level, represented GB at the Olympics, and won the champions league. That one? 

 

 

This is why it's arguable as he certainly was at one point rated but when we signed him he was off the back of an unsuccessful loan and his stock was pretty low. 

[revolution saint]

5 hours ago, Mr X said:

What did we see in lyanco that no other club sees? Or did we just see a cheap deal an offer to good to refuse? 

Worth remembering that it was only just over 2 years ago that Lyanco was named the second best player at the Toulon Tournament.  For context England had the following players:  Reece James, Marc Guehi, Trevor Chalobah, Eze, Joe Willock, Nketieh and Connor Gallagher.  The UEFA bods reckoned he was better than all of them.  Presumably this would have been where he caught the attention of Matt Crocker.  Here's a quote from the match report against France,

"There were times where Lyanco would win the ball and then launch into attack with an unpredictable, elusive dribble. On the ball, he was a maestro, breaking the lines with vertical passes into Pedro and Pedrinho, fizzing passes over the top into Emerson or Bruno Tabata, and avoiding France’s hapless press. With Lyanco acting as a sweeper between Murilo and Iago, he had license to drive forward on the ball and pick out the wingers on the touchline."

So it's not like Lyanco has been plucked from obscurity and has never shown any potential whatsoever.  You can argue that he might not make the grade (England also had Josh Sims in the squad), you can argue that he might not be suited to a more robust and fast "English" game.  There's plenty of reasons why it might not be a great signing but equally there's enough to suggest he might be a decent player.  Seems to me that technically he's a good player but is going to take time to adjust to the pace and power of the league.  That's fine - he wasn't signed to make an immediate impression just as Salisu wasn't either.  The club obviously feel that he could be the ball playing CB and would complement Salisu in the long term.

Anyway, no idea if he'll go on to be the player we all hope he'll be but just wanted to address some of the reasons why we signed him.  As for Vestergaard - I'm starting to think he was the ideal lockdown player - never looked as good when the crowds were in and looks like he's reverted to type with Leicester now that the fans are back.

[The Left Back]

In my pre-contributing, stalker days on this forum I had you, @TWardown as a pretty level-headed, objective poster who introduced me to some analytical approaches I hadn't come across before, and which I've enjoyed.  So there is something about this Lyanco thread that doesn't sound like you.  I was wondering if he had personally upset you, or perhaps even if someone had stolen your log in.  

I think that it's safe to say the jury is still out on Lyanco.  He could yet do a Hoedt or an Aldeweireld, or end up somewhere in-between (Stephens?)  There is so little data to go on, and most of it mediated by others' opinion.  So I'm surprised you've taken such an entrenched position on this one.  And the longer this thread goes on (15 pages already and he's only played 74 minutes) the deeper your trench is getting, and the more you are being triggered by others to dig deeper.  

My opinion is that we simply don't know how he will be for us.  I'm intrigued to find out.  On the one hand the reports from his last club aren't great and his twitter account is bizarre, on the other I trust our recruitment and coaching at the moment and so am giving them every opportunity to make him shine.  I think we need ball-playing centre halves for the style we play and my worry is that without Stephens and Vestergaard we have lost some of that.  So if Ralph can get him playing well enough for us in the next couple of months he could come in very handy.  

[TWar]

12 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

In my pre-contributing, stalker days on this forum I had you, @TWardown as a pretty level-headed, objective poster who introduced me to some analytical approaches I hadn't come across before, and which I've enjoyed.  So there is something about this Lyanco thread that doesn't sound like you.  I was wondering if he had personally upset you, or perhaps even if someone had stolen your log in. 

This is probably a fair comment, I am not normally this animated or outspoken regarding a player. I guess I was annoyed that I had been complementing the club all summer regarding shrewd sales and even shrewder buys feeling that we were smashing the window saving all that money. Then when the money was needed and instead we got a cheaper, low quality option I will admit it wound me up a bit. I don't want to see money funneled out of the first team, I love this club and want to see it improve. 

You are probably right though, what's done is done and while, as I have made clear, I do not rate Lyanco as it stands we have a good team and livra, Armstrong and perraud all look inspired signings. Will try to be less irritated in the future. 

[suewhistle]

3 hours ago, The Left Back said:

II think that it's safe to say the jury is still out on Lyanco.  He could yet do a Hoedt or an Aldeweireld, or end up somewhere in-between (Stephens?) 

He at least seems more aware than Hoedt as he acknowledges that is was a difficult game against Sheffield, and in some ways it was a useful introduction to English football as it gives him a measure of what is needed. Didn't one of the Saints fans on the night say it looked as if he was blowing a bit quite early on in the game? So now he knows what he has to do we can judge him again after a bit more time on the pitch. If he improves like Salisu has then we can all be a lot happier.

 

[NewYorkSaint]

My goodness, did I actually witness this right here on Saints Web? An angry dispute gets talked down by both sides being, um, reasonable.  Hurrah!  And bravo @TheLeftBack and @TWar.   

[Daft Kerplunk]

To be fair to lyanco, Italy has an appreciation of the defensive art like no other nation so Torino fans had time to judge him thinking of some of the best defenders the game has ever seen. I think he has a long way to go and whether he makes it or not is still to be judged. With us though, he does have some of the most passive, least expectant, and forgiving fans to win over. We don’t make a lot of noise but we also won’t get on peoples back that ferociously. He’s got plenty of time.

[Daft Kerplunk]

9 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

He at least seems more aware than Hoedt as he acknowledges that is was a difficult game against Sheffield, and in some ways it was a useful introduction to English football as it gives him a measure of what is needed. Didn't one of the Saints fans on the night say it looked as if he was blowing a bit quite early on in the game? So now he knows what he has to do we can judge him again after a bit more time on the pitch. If he improves like Salisu has then we can all be a lot happier.

 

Hoedt thought he was Van Dijk but he was actually Dryden. 

[suewhistle]

Dryden had a certain honest crapness about him..

[Patrick Bateman]

2 hours ago, suewhistle said:

Dryden had a certain honest crapness about him..

Christ. I remember a game, think it was 0-5 vs Newcastle, he was bloody horrible. 

[SNSUN]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

I maintain Ramirez was a class player and CLEARLY had talent, remember that VIlla game!

Currently available on a free transfer...

[Sunglasses Ron]

Looking forward to seeing Lyanco develop his game, I reckon he could turn out alright if he works hard at it.

I  remember one of VVD's first games for us was at home to Man Utd. and he got taught a bit of lesson that day.  Not saying Lyanco will ever get near his level, and I know Sheffield Utd. are hardly the Galacticos, but can recall a few questioning whether he was a good signing after that game.

The club must think there's something there.

[egg]

7 minutes ago, Sunglasses Ron said:

Looking forward to seeing Lyanco develop his game, I reckon he could turn out alright if he works hard at it.

I  remember one of VVD's first games for us was at home to Man Utd. and he got taught a bit of lesson that day.  Not saying Lyanco will ever get near his level, and I know Sheffield Utd. are hardly the Galacticos, but can recall a few questioning whether he was a good signing after that game.

The club must think there's something there.

I think Lyanco was deemed the best at that price point, and the club have taken a punt in him. Like you, I haven't written him off, although getting hauled off with 20 mins to go away to a championship reserve team doesn't inspire confidence. I'd forgotten that about VVD though but it was clear from early doors that he was something special. 

[Turkish]

10 hours ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Christ. I remember a game, think it was 0-5 vs Newcastle, he was bloody horrible. 

4-0 down after about 20 minutes. He was absolutely embarassingly bad that day.

Scott Marshall takes some topping for crap centre backs though, two games, two own goals, 7 goals conceded, never played for us again.

[Sunglasses Ron]

18 minutes ago, egg said:

I think Lyanco was deemed the best at that price point, and the club have taken a punt in him. Like you, I haven't written him off, although getting hauled off with 20 mins to go away to a championship reserve team doesn't inspire confidence. I'd forgotten that about VVD though but it was clear from early doors that he was something special. 

Yeah, VVDs debut for us was away to West Brom (0-0) and it was pretty clear from that display that he was class. I think the Man Utd. game was his home debut, but that was one of only a few games in his entire career for us where he looked anything other than brilliant (well, until he completely gave up trying at the end). 

[Cascadia Saint]

On 23/09/2021 at 00:33, Mr X said:

What did we see in lyanco that no other club sees? Or did we just see a cheap deal an offer to good to refuse? 

There was a great interview with an italian football bloke on the Total Saints Podcast a few weeks back.

I remember it being a good listen, explained a lot about him.

 

[Rickman42]

First 45 minutes from Lyanco has been very encouraging…perhaps a sign to never judge a player after one performance…especially considering he couldn’t even speak English last time out!

 

looks assured at the back, and clearly very passionate about his defending. Let’s hope he continues to improve, as Salisu did last season, and he can provide some healthy competition in the CB position!

Edited 26 October, 2021 by Rickman42

[The Cat]

4 minutes ago, Rickman42 said:

First 45 minutes from Lyanco has been very encouraging…perhaps a sign to never judge a player after one performance…especially considering he couldn’t even speak English last time out!

 

looks assured at the back, and clearly very passionate about his defending. Let’s hope he continues to improve, as Salisu did last season, and he can provide some healthy competition in the CB position!

People don't judge players after one bad performance on here. They judge them before they have even pulled on the shirt.

He's done well in the first half here though, and up against some exceptional players. Hopefully he can continue like this as it will give us more options at CB.

[hypochondriac]

Really pleased to see he had a good first half. Long may it continue. 

[Suhari]

Looks good.

[Turkish]

One I hope does well. Comes across as great character who could become a fans favourite. Or equally could go nuts and be a liability. Either he’s got a likeabilty factor about him 

[Disco Stu]

Given Bednarek's recent performances and Lyanco's couragious effort tonight, I would love to see a Salisu-Lyanco partnership.

Edited 26 October, 2021 by Disco Stu

[S-Clarke]

My MOTM tonight, looked good on the ball, good in the air and a nice turn of pace about him as well. Defo cult hero vibes with his 'passion' and his leave everything on the pitch attitude. He's probably prone to some calamities along the way as he plays on the edge, but that was a good showing.

[Saints foreva]

Done well tonight, hopefully a sign of things to come. 

[Rickman42]

Same old Saints fans writing a player off before he’s even had a chance to prove himself. 
 

A very promising performance from Lyanco there. Looked rock solid at the back, and looked composed with the ball at his feet too. 
 

Hopefully the Saints scouts have worked their magic again…lets hope he pushes on from here!

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

My MOTM tonight, looked good on the ball, good in the air and a nice turn of pace about him as well. Defo cult hero vibes with his 'passion' and his leave everything on the pitch attitude. He's probably prone to some calamities along the way as he plays on the edge, but that was a good showing.

Good to hear. As one of the few on here who appears to know what you’re on about when it comes to football that’s sounds promising 

[Sheaf Saint]

On 23/09/2021 at 08:33, Mr X said:

What did we see in lyanco that no other club sees? Or did we just see a cheap deal an offer to good to refuse? 

I think his performance tonight has answered your question. I thought he was excellent against the European champions and current PL leaders. A big improvement on his showing against Sheff Utd, which wasn't anywhere near as bad as some people made out.

[doggface]

Missed most of the 2nd half but really enjoyed his 1st half performance, looks much fitter