Afghanistan

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Why don’t you start a China thread?

#Boriersaint

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

#Boriersaint

Lol 😂 

[hypochondriac]

Christ Biden looks sooo incompetent it's unreal. It's compounded by the fact that he's barely doing any press conferences and is answering hardly any questions. He really looks like he's lost some cognitive function to be honest. I fear for things if China do invade Taiwan. 

[whelk]

19 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Christ Biden looks sooo incompetent it's unreal. It's compounded by the fact that he's barely doing any press conferences and is answering hardly any questions. He really looks like he's lost some cognitive function to be honest. I fear for things if China do invade Taiwan. 

Yeah shockingly bad. 12 US service men killed means this isn’t going to fade away.

[Warriorsaint]

Chaos. We had our thumb on these people. Pandoras box now open.

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yeah shockingly bad. 12 US service men killed means this isn’t going to fade away.

It's bad for the world not just America. They look like they have absolutely no idea what they are doing and they are going to end up having to bribe the Taliban to let the remaining US nationals leave. Just days ago Biden rejected the notion that US citizens would be stranded. He's a moron. 

[whelk]

Biden has made the West look so weak. Words fail me on how bleak the whole situation is

[egg]

Horrific situation, and no obvious solution. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we should have never have laid boots on the ground. 20 years to see the Taliban replace the Taliban, all whilst seeing the creation of ISIS, exposing many people to the wrath of the Taliban and their newly built lives and lifestyles left in tatters. Sad times. 

[Warriorsaint]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Biden has made the West look so weak. Words fail me on how bleak the whole situation is

So true, a dreadful miscalculation. Could so easily have overturned Trumps agreement but went with it. I sometimes think this was a trap left by Trump. But lets not forget who made the agreement in the first place. Blood on all their hands.

[whelk]

Listening to Biden now. So lacks the gravitas of Obama.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

Listening to Biden now. So lacks the gravitas of Obama.

Lacks any gravitas at all. 

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

I sometimes think this was a trap left by Trump.......

He's not that smart. Look at some of his other foreign policy moves, such as his attitude towards NATO; they were generally supportive of an isolationist viewpoint, and appealed to his core support. The US has always tended to be this way in it's attitude to the World.

[whelk]

Biden has always wanted to get out of Afghanistan. 

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

He's not that smart. Look at some of his other foreign policy moves, such as his attitude towards NATO; they were generally supportive of an isolationist viewpoint, and appealed to his core support. The US has always tended to be this way in it's attitude to the World.

Its a fair point. Trump wasn’t that strategic. Biden has played right into their hands though. Was definitely not the best leader the Democrats had but the only one that could be elected. Such a clusterfuck. Don’t think he has it to solve this. Was so obvious this was going to happen once they pulled out.

[Warriorsaint]

This is what defeat looks like. Being chased out of the country. History will not be kind.

[badgerx16]

10 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Its a fair point. Trump wasn’t that strategic. Biden has played right into their hands though. Was definitely not the best leader the Democrats had but the only one that could be elected. Such a clusterfuck. Don’t think he has it to solve this. Was so obvious this was going to happen once they pulled out.

The issue was always going to be how to finish an open ended war, against such a hard line ideology, in a country that has always proved nigh-on impossible to unite. Rory Stewart's documentaries on the BBC give a good historical perspective of the mess the West were digging themselves into; as usual the US produced all sorts of excellent plans for bombing, strafing, and suppressing the enemy, but had almost nothing in the way of consolidation plans or exit strategy.

 

What were the last 2 wars the US won without leaving an almighty mess ? The invasions of Grenada and Panama.

Edited 26 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[Warriorsaint]

Listening tO Biden now he has made a fair point. The mission was completed in terms of destroying AlQuaida.

If he had overturned Trumps plan then the Taliban backlash could have been devastating and required pouring more troops in.

 I think I may be changing my opinion on him. He was caught between a rock and a hard place.

It was a mess waiting for a date and deadline. It could have been handled much more efficiently.

The mission creep of democracy building is a failure unfortunately and I fear for the Afghan people. If anything a lesson should be learnt but it won’t. 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

The mission creep of democracy building is a failure unfortunately ................

You don't build democracy in a country by picking a favoured faction and supporting them against all others. There are many historical social, tribal, and religious issues in Afghanistan that need to be worked into any democratic framework, and the US effectively imposing a leadership was never going to create a stable democracy.

[Warriorsaint]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You don't build democracy in a country by picking a favoured faction and supporting them against all others. There are many historical social, tribal, and religious issues in Afghanistan that need to be worked into any democratic framework, and the US effectively imposing a leadership was never going to create a stable democracy.

Not arguing with you.

although a caveat maybe Iraq, a similar messy mission creep of imposing democracy on various tribal animosities that is far stable than I thought it could be. It may be that the tribes be it Sunni or Shiite are more tolerant/practical than the Taliban nutjubs.

Edited 26 August, 2021 by Warriorsaint

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Warriorsaint said:

So true, a dreadful miscalculation. Could so easily have overturned Trumps agreement but went with it. I sometimes think this was a trap left by Trump. But lets not forget who made the agreement in the first place. Blood on all their hands.

How they left and what has happened since he became president is entirely on him no matter how much he tries to lay it at Trump's door. If anyone listened to that press conference and doesn't think there is something deeply wrong then you must be blind and deaf. 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Warriorsaint said:

Its a fair point. Trump wasn’t that strategic. Biden has played right into their hands though. Was definitely not the best leader the Democrats had but the only one that could be elected. Such a clusterfuck. Don’t think he has it to solve this. Was so obvious this was going to happen once they pulled out.

Should have voted for Tulsi Gabbard she was the only one who talked any sense that wasn't rambling nonsense. Yang was alright too but a few mental policies. 

[egg]

29 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You don't build democracy in a country by picking a favoured faction and supporting them against all others. There are many historical social, tribal, and religious issues in Afghanistan that need to be worked into any democratic framework, and the US effectively imposing a leadership was never going to create a stable democracy.

Agreed, but better still, don't try to impose your will on other countries. Not our circus, not our animals. 

[Warriorsaint]

Just watch this. This is unreal and definitely on the current administration no matter how much I can lay at Trump. Does anyone understand how any of our leaders get into positions of power. They couldn’t run an ice cream van.

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Agreed, but better still, don't try to impose your will on other countries. Not our circus, not our animals. 

I think probably worth remembering the political atmosphere after 9/11. It's easy to state this things decades down the line but things were at fever pitch after the terror attack and the consensus was that there had to be reprisals. 

[Warriorsaint]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

How they left and what has happened since he became president is entirely on him no matter how much he tries to lay it at Trump's door. If anyone listened to that press conference and doesn't think there is something deeply wrong then you must be blind and deaf. 

agreed, no running from this one. Just laying out the fact that the touch paper for this was lit 18 months ago. There was plenty of time to prepare for this. The fact that it feels like the fall of Berlin is pure negligence 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Just watch this. This is unreal and definitely on the current administration no matter how much I can lay at Trump. Does anyone understand how any of our leaders get into positions of power. They couldn’t run an ice cream van.

You can't lay it at Trump. Pulling out all the troops at once without leaving any sort of force, without attempting to get any civilians or foreigners out is almost criminally negligent and was only ever going to end one way. Biden needs to own this but all he can do is squirm and try to desperately throw it back at Trump which is pathetic really. Trump has all manner of faults but this is on him. 

[Warriorsaint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I think probably worth remembering the political atmosphere after 9/11. It's easy to state this things decades down the line but things were at fever pitch after the terror attack and the consensus was that there had to be reprisals. 

I remember it vividly. The calls for Immediate retribution were thunderous. The rage was palpable. People were calling for wiping Afghanistan off the earth.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Warriorsaint said:

agreed, no running from this one. Just laying out the fact that the touch paper for this was lit 18 months ago. There was plenty of time to prepare for this. The fact that it feels like the fall of Berlin is pure negligence 

Yes the Americans were set to leave. No idea if it would have been done in this manner under Trump. Leaving hasn't been the issue-they should leave-it's the manner of the leaving that's caused this and that's all Biden. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Warriorsaint said:

I remember it vividly. The calls for Immediate retribution were thunderous. The rage was palpable. People were calling for wiping Afghanistan off the earth.

And that's sort of understandable given what had taken place. It wasn't an option at the time to just do nothing and say nothing to do with us. It very much was to do with America. 

[Warriorsaint]

2 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yes the Americans were set to leave. No idea if it would have been done in this manner under Trump. Leaving hasn't been the issue-they should leave-it's the manner of the leaving that's caused this and that's all Biden. 

Not arguing, I agree. This is on the current administration. Am I missing something?

Im not laying this at Trump. Perhaps the only thing they agreed on. 

This stage is all on Biden. The fact that they have armed the Taliban to the teeth where they have more military hardware than the entire British land military is mental.

The one statistic that they now have more blackhawk helicopters than 85% of the worlds military is astounding.

Edited 26 August, 2021 by Warriorsaint

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Not arguing, I agree. This is on the current administration. Am I missing something?

You said your opinion of him was cha going and he was caught between a rock and a hard place. The suggestion is that he had no option other than to pull out all the troops before civilians which is palpable nonsense. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think probably worth remembering the political atmosphere after 9/11. It's easy to state this things decades down the line but things were at fever pitch after the terror attack and the consensus was that there had to be reprisals. 

Our issue was with Al Qaeda. That's a separate issue to enforcing regime change, and democracy. It's not just Afghanistan. We later meddled in Syria and look at the state of that. Before that Iraq. Along the way we've created ISIS, flip flopped from supporting one side to the other, created divisions amongst nato nations (look at who's camp turkey are in on a crisis by crisis basis), etc. 

Then look at what caused the Al Qaeda situation to begin with. It goes back to earlier meddling. 

We're not here to impose our will and our ways on other cultures and societies. It rarely ends well. 

[Warriorsaint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You said your opinion of him was cha going and he was caught between a rock and a hard place. The suggestion is that he had no option other than to pull out all the troops before civilians which is palpable nonsense. 

No, my opinion of his policy to continue with the withdrawal had changed. Once the decision had been made by Trump there were two choices. To overturn or comply. He chose the lesser of two evils. I can understand the logic.

The manner of withdrawal is a disaster though.

 I never agreed with the withdrawal in the first place for reasons laid out previously but that’s a moot point now

 

 

 

 

[Warriorsaint]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Our issue was with Al Qaeda

Agreed. Mission creep is what usually happens afterwards and therin  lies the seeds for disaster. We have just delayed them for twenty years. They haven’t gone away. 

We will hear of them again soon enough. Funny that before today IS wasn’t mentioned much. We will hear of them a lot more now.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Our issue was with Al Qaeda. That's a separate issue to enforcing regime change, and democracy. It's not just Afghanistan. We later meddled in Syria and look at the state of that. Before that Iraq. Along the way we've created ISIS, flip flopped from supporting one side to the other, created divisions amongst nato nations (look at who's camp turkey are in on a crisis by crisis basis), etc. 

Then look at what caused the Al Qaeda situation to begin with. It goes back to earlier meddling. 

We're not here to impose our will and our ways on other cultures and societies. It rarely ends well. 

I was simply talking about the climate immediately following 9/11. America had to do something and Afghanistan was who harboured the terrorists. Given the climate I think there was little choice other than to invade them. To do less wasn't really an option. 

[egg]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I was simply talking about the climate immediately following 9/11. America had to do something and Afghanistan was who harboured the terrorists. Given the climate I think there was little choice other than to invade them. To do less wasn't really an option. 

I disagree. React to Al Qaeda by all means, but occupy and enforce societal and regime change? Anyone with any sense could see that'll breed fundamentalism, terrorism, and goodness knows what. It's been a car crash, sure some of it can only be seen with hindsight, but a fair amount should have been foreseeable.

Regardless, we haven't learned from it and in not many years time we'll be talking of another country we've meddled in, how we've supported different sides of the dispute, how a new terror group has been formed as a result, and how we've left a clusterfuck behind. 

[Warriorsaint]

Just so we know , we are no more competent than the Yanks. Utter shitshow.

 

 

[hypochondriac]

22 minutes ago, egg said:

I disagree. React to Al Qaeda by all means, but occupy and enforce societal and regime change? Anyone with any sense could see that'll breed fundamentalism, terrorism, and goodness knows what. It's been a car crash, sure some of it can only be seen with hindsight, but a fair amount should have been foreseeable.

Regardless, we haven't learned from it and in not many years time we'll be talking of another country we've meddled in, how we've supported different sides of the dispute, how a new terror group has been formed as a result, and how we've left a clusterfuck behind. 

It was only in about 2006 that Bush started talking about saving women etc. Prior to that it was about removing Al qaeda and making them pay. How else could you have reacted to Al Qaeda? Afghanistan was harbouring these people and they wouldn't have been able to get them out without an invasion. Enforcing societal change came later. 

[egg]

5 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It was only in about 2006 that Bush started talking about saving women etc. Prior to that it was about removing Al qaeda and making them pay. How else could you have reacted to Al Qaeda? Afghanistan was harbouring these people and they wouldn't have been able to get them out without an invasion. Enforcing societal change came later. 

It all came as part of the same invasion and occupation. 9/11 necessitated a reaction. Not a 20 year occupation which leaves the same people back in charge, but with an arsenal of weaponry they would never have obtained if we hadn't left it for them. In any event, enforcing our will, and societal change, is not our place. However you approach it, we fucked up. 

[Warriorsaint]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

In any event, enforcing our will, and societal change, is not our place

Glad to see we have learned from our history that empire building is, in fact unproductive. We did it for centuries.

[hypochondriac]

23 minutes ago, egg said:

It all came as part of the same invasion and occupation. 9/11 necessitated a reaction. Not a 20 year occupation which leaves the same people back in charge, but with an arsenal of weaponry they would never have obtained if we hadn't left it for them. In any event, enforcing our will, and societal change, is not our place. However you approach it, we fucked up. 

Nope I remember the speech Bush gave in 2006 where he said something along the lines of "loss of freedom anywhere in the world is a threat to America." He used the word freedom countless times and it was remarked on at the time as a marked shift from retaliation for 9/11 to team America style foreign policy trying to dictate to Afghanistan how to behave. You didn't answer the question though, what should post 9/11 America have done to destroy Al Qaeda in Afghanistan that didn't involve invasion? 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Glad to see we have learned from our history that empire building is, in fact unproductive. We did it for centuries.

We did it much better than America TBF. 

[egg]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Nope I remember the speech Bush gave in 2006 where he said something along the lines of "loss of freedom anywhere in the world is a threat to America." He used the word freedom countless times and it was remarked on at the time as a marked shift from retaliation for 9/11 to team America style foreign policy trying to dictate to Afghanistan how to behave. You didn't answer the question though, what should post 9/11 America have done to destroy Al Qaeda in Afghanistan that didn't involve invasion? 

I thought the question was rhetorical. The answer was bomb the shit out of the Al Qaeda. They were never going to be able to destroy a fundamentalist Never. The more you hurt them, the more you feed the ideology, and the more it grows. A ground offensive was never going to work. Russia failed in Afghanistan. The US did not do great in Vietnam or Korea. It was a futile willy waving exercise. 

Did you think that the USA would ever have been able to do any of  defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda, instil regime and societal change, and leave a stable country? None of it was realistically achievable. 

We fucked up. Amazing that anyone would disagree. 

 

[benjii]

The reason Biden got elected is because he isn't Trump, so he really shouldn't have just fallen in line with Trump's idiotic strategy here. And if he felt he had to, he could have at least made damn sure he implemented it as best as possible.

The whole thing looks so incompetent you almost wonder if it's deliberate and there's something else going on - but I don't think that's the case at all. It's just baffling incompetence. 

I genuinely worry for the future of the UK and the US if the best our democracies can offer are nasty morons like Trump and weaklings like Johnson and Biden. And we've shown the world that we cannot be depended upon or trusted to do the right thing.

This situation is unbelievably sad. Imagine being a teenage girl - or even a boy - over the last few weeks. Your life hopes trampled on by a bunch of filthy degenerates. People handing their children over to strangers FFS; that tells you all you need to know. 

Shameful.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

Glad to see we have learned from our history that empire building is, in fact unproductive. We did it for centuries.

Good statement.

8 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

Chaos. We had our thumb on these people. Pandoras box now open.

Yeah, that's right, we had our thumb on 'these people' who clearly weren't capable of running their own country so we should have continued our occupation and building that empire.

All. Over. The. Place.

[whelk]

I wonder how peaceful the world would be with Egg’s do nothing approach? No doubt Jews woudl be playing in the streets with Palestinians and the Taliban would be a valued contributing member of the UN.

[Weston Super Saint]

10 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

Why don’t you start a China thread?

Why?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58342790

Quote

Afghanistan's Uyghurs fear the Taliban, and now China too

 

[hypochondriac]

5 hours ago, egg said:

I thought the question was rhetorical. The answer was bomb the shit out of the Al Qaeda. They were never going to be able to destroy a fundamentalist Never. The more you hurt them, the more you feed the ideology, and the more it grows. A ground offensive was never going to work. Russia failed in Afghanistan. The US did not do great in Vietnam or Korea. It was a futile willy waving exercise. 

Did you think that the USA would ever have been able to do any of  defeat the Taliban and Al Qaeda, instil regime and societal change, and leave a stable country? None of it was realistically achievable. 

We fucked up. Amazing that anyone would disagree. 

 

They did defeat Al qaeda. That's pretty unarguable. So your solution would have been to carpet bomb swathes of Afghanistan? How is that preferable to an invasion? 

[hypochondriac]

56 minutes ago, benjii said:

The reason Biden got elected is because he isn't Trump, so he really shouldn't have just fallen in line with Trump's idiotic strategy here. And if he felt he had to, he could have at least made damn sure he implemented it as best as possible.

The whole thing looks so incompetent you almost wonder if it's deliberate and there's something else going on - but I don't think that's the case at all. It's just baffling incompetence. 

I genuinely worry for the future of the UK and the US if the best our democracies can offer are nasty morons like Trump and weaklings like Johnson and Biden. And we've shown the world that we cannot be depended upon or trusted to do the right thing.

This situation is unbelievably sad. Imagine being a teenage girl - or even a boy - over the last few weeks. Your life hopes trampled on by a bunch of filthy degenerates. People handing their children over to strangers FFS; that tells you all you need to know. 

Shameful.

Agree with all of that. Good post. 

[egg]

30 minutes ago, whelk said:

I wonder how peaceful the world would be with Egg’s do nothing approach? No doubt Jews woudl be playing in the streets with Palestinians and the Taliban would be a valued contributing member of the UN.

Have a little think Whelk. Doing something created the shit show that is the diminishing west bank and gaza. Doing nothing about the actions of Israel, ie its treatment of Palestinians and settlements etc, is something that has led to fundamentalism and terrorism. That's something we should have dealt with, and the umpteen UN resolutions that have been breached, all whilst we arm the Israeli's is shameful. 

Back to the subject. Tell me how our meddling has helped build safe and stable countries in Afghanistan. Ditto Syria. Ditto Iraq. Write down all the benefits - Afghanistan didn’t have an ISIS until we all but created it, it didn't have all the warplanes and tanks etc the US have left them to play with, it didn't have a generation of people who'd had their hopes built and the rug built, etc, etc. 

The Taliban are a disgrace. Strict interpretation of Sharia law is unpleasant, but here's the thing, it's someone else's culture and problem. We perpetually wade into other countries imposing what we think they need, fuck it up, and leave. 

Afghanistan is a worse place after out meddling. Anyone who disagrees is an idiot.