Afghanistan

[Warriorsaint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Well there's quite a bit of that I disagree with so I'm not sure we do share the same opinion I'm afraid. 

Thats ok, your opinion is just as valid.

[whelk]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Suddenly it's pantomime season.

I will need Weston’s guidance on helping me define ‘suddenly’

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Oh yes it is

"Spot on" is now a post that complains we have "wasted £40bn" on these operations and then in the very next sentence says that we should spend the "£350m a week"  from Brexit on continuing them. So a waste of money, please spend more money. Clear.

Not sure it can be described as "spot on", but knock yourself out.

[Warriorsaint]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

I will need Weston’s guidance on helping me define ‘suddenly’

Someone should get him a dictionary. Likes his definitions lol

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, whelk said:

No US military casualties since Feb 2020. BIden didn’t need to either get out or ramp up.

The Taliban were deliberately avoiding US casualties due to the agreement signed with the US in March 2020 that set May 2021 for the final withdrawal of all US forces. Any such action would have goaded the US into rethinking this. Given Trump is such an isolationist, it was worth their waiting and not provoking him.

[Weston Super Saint]

17 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Shortsighted. Its ok to wait 50 years for Brexit benefits but 20 years to stifle terrorists too long.

Al Qaida partying tonight!

Yep, we should have stayed there until they finally decided to be a democratic society, built shopping malls and leisure centres. Only once they were truly westernised would they be civil enough to be left alone.

Bloody heathens, who do they think they are wanting to control their own country with their own laws and religion. They should show more gratitude.

[badgerx16]

Just now, Weston Super Saint said:

Yep, we should have stayed there until they finally decided to be a democratic society, built shopping malls and leisure centres. Only once they were truly westernised would they be civil enough to be left alone.

Bloody heathens, who do they think they are wanting to control their own country with their own laws and religion. They should show more gratitude.

Just like those other countries the US have successfully 'Westernised" ; Libya, Iraq, Somalia, and Syria.

[whelk]

Just now, CB Fry said:

"Spot on" is now a post that complains we have "wasted £40bn" on these operations and then in the very next sentence says that we should spend the "£350m a week"  from Brexit on continuing them. So a waste of money, please spend more money. Clear.

Not sure it can be described as "spot on", but knock yourself out.

It sums up the lack of empathy. Some get it some don’t. Some are very smart and explain Afghanistan is complicated. Who knew?

Personally I agree with him and it is shameful regardless of what Weston comes back with from Wikipedia. And the BS numbers that get bandied around from people with likely very little understanding of macro economics.

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

"Spot on" is now a post that complains we have "wasted £40bn" on these operations and then in the very next sentence says that we should spend the "£350m a week"  from Brexit on continuing them. So a waste of money, please spend more money. Clear.

Not sure it can be described as "spot on", but knock yourself out.

Christ, I know its hard to do sarcasm in text but that was the point. Apparently we were wasting 350 million a week on the EU. I disagree but the big red bus said lets spend on the NHS instead. I suggest we spend that money keeping terrorists underground.

We have wasted £40 billion on our Afghan jolly because it was in vain. We have cut and run with nothing to show for it.

Either you commit or you don’t. We should be there for another30 years if that’s what it takes.

Christ we were in Ireland for 800

[Warriorsaint]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Yep, we should have stayed there until they finally decided to be a democratic society, built shopping malls and leisure centres. Only once they were truly westernised would they be civil enough to be left alone.

Bloody heathens, who do they think they are wanting to control their own country with their own laws and religion. They should show more gratitude.

Such a limited mind

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Christ, I know its hard to do sarcasm in text but that was the point. Apparently we were wasting 350 million a week on the EU. I disagree but the big red bus said lets spend on the NHS instead. I suggest we spend that money keeping terrorists underground.

We have wasted £40 billion on our Afghan jolly because it was in vain. We have cut and run with nothing to show for it.

Either you commit or you don’t. We should be there for another30 years if that’s what it takes.

Christ we were in Ireland for 800

What difference would it have made for the UK to spend an additional £350m a week in Afghaniaatan if the US withdrew ?

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Christ we were in Ireland for 800

We still are.

[hypochondriac]

10 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Yep, we should have stayed there until they finally decided to be a democratic society, built shopping malls and leisure centres. Only once they were truly westernised would they be civil enough to be left alone.

Bloody heathens, who do they think they are wanting to control their own country with their own laws and religion. They should show more gratitude.

"who do they think they are" define "they" in that sentence. 

[badgerx16]

"Low morale, no support and bad politics: why the Afghan army folded"

 

https://www.ft.com/content/b1d2b06d-f938-4443-ba56-242f18da22c3

Edited 16 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

What difference would it have made for the UK to spend an additional £350m a week in Afghaniaatan if the US withdrew ?

I believe the total command and control structure was  about 2500 troops but I could be completely wrong about that. 
 

not the point anyway. I am aware it is an international coalition. Just as mad at the US but does not absolve our govt of blame but its ok Boris will have strong words and so will Rabb when he’s home from holiday.

[badgerx16]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

I believe the total command and control structure was  about 2500 troops but I could be completely wrong about that. 
 

not the point anyway. I am aware it is an international coalition. Just as mad at the US but does not absolve our govt of blame but its ok Boris will have strong words and so will Rabb when he’s home from holiday.

I agree it's a shit show,and the withdrawal has been an omnishambles, but it was a US show, and everybody had to follow their lead. Trump said he was taking his ball home, so it was game over. As usual, it is the 'normal' people who get shafted.

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

"who do they think they are" define "they" in that sentence. 

Judging by those that are stamping their feet and demanding that we should have stayed in the country like the imperialist masters they think we are, "they" are clearly the thick, uneducated heathens that had the sheer audacity to be born in the country and clearly can't be trusted to run their own affairs.

[whelk]

The lucky ones

Edited 16 August, 2021 by whelk

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

It sums up the lack of empathy. Some get it some don’t. Some are very smart and explain Afghanistan is complicated. Who knew?

Personally I agree with him and it is shameful regardless of what Weston comes back with from Wikipedia. And the BS numbers that get bandied around from people with likely very little understanding of macro economics.

I see "Lack of empathy" in an airfield full of Afghan people trying to jump on planes and do a runner and every single fucking one of them is a man.

What about the empathy of the Afghanistan army to protect their people, or the President who had it away on his toes? The Taliban haven't conquered, they've fucking walked in. Where is the leadership there, where's the empathy?

Anyway: you think we should divert £18bn a year to operations in Afghanistan to demonstrate our empathy? Rightho.

What about Syria?  How much do they get?

What about Somalia?

What about, you know, being that it is UK exchequer money, the millions of children living in poverty in this country? Or is that not your kind of empathy?

[whelk]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Judging by those that are stamping their feet and demanding that we should have stayed in the country like the imperialist masters they think we are, "they" are clearly the thick, uneducated heathens that had the sheer audacity to be born in the country and clearly can't be trusted to run their own affairs.

Let’s be clear you take Taliban control as a sign it is what the Afghani population wants. Seriously do you ever read round subjects? Incredible on so many subjects you miss so much

[Warriorsaint]

2 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

I see "Lack of empathy" in an airfield full of Afghan people trying to jump on planes and do a runner and every single fucking one of them is a man.

What about the empathy of the Afghanistan army to protect their people, or the President who had it away on his toes? The Taliban haven't conquered, they've fucking walked in. Where is the leadership there, where's the empathy?

Anyway: you think we should divert £18bn a year to operations in Afghanistan to demonstrate our empathy? Rightho.

What about Syria?  How much do they get?

What about Somalia?

What about, you know, being that it is UK exchequer money, the millions of children living in poverty in this country? Or is that not your kind of empathy?

No just a bonus. The real reason is selfish pragmatism. It is worth it to stop atrocities on our streets. I give it a year b4 we get regular updates about Al Quaida and the jihad and their numerous successes.

[Warriorsaint]

4 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What about

See?

[Warriorsaint]

5 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

What about, you know, being that it is UK exchequer money, the millions of children living in poverty in this country

Im sure you’re a good socialist and a fan of Universal Credit

[badgerx16]

7 minutes ago, whelk said:

Let’s be clear you take Taliban control as a sign it is what the Afghani population wants.

Withdrawing their troops is what the American population want.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, CB Fry said:

I see "Lack of empathy" in an airfield full of Afghan people trying to jump on planes and do a runner and every single fucking one of them is a man.

What about the empathy of the Afghanistan army to protect their people, or the President who had it away on his toes? The Taliban haven't conquered, they've fucking walked in. Where is the leadership there, where's the empathy?

Anyway: you think we should divert £18bn a year to operations in Afghanistan to demonstrate our empathy? Rightho.

What about Syria?  How much do they get?

What about Somalia?

What about, you know, being that it is UK exchequer money, the millions of children living in poverty in this country? Or is that not your kind of empathy?

See the picture above on the plane. Loads of blokes dressed up as women.

US intelligence knew the army wouldn’t hold. Biden trying to put it on them clearly works on many. 

As for your what about other countries - we all know we can’t solve all the problems but we went in there and was general support for that. So we have made that situation and left them not with just a non democratic leader but at hands of a religious death cult.

Any point bothering with any Western support to Haitians suffering from their earth quake?

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Withdrawing their troops is what the American population want.

Of course they do. But the world is complex and without going on ad nauseam we created situation so have to take responsibility.

Edited 16 August, 2021 by whelk

[Warriorsaint]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Withdrawing their troops is what the American population 

Even if true. The majority of the uk believes in state sanctioned murder i.e capital punishment. Doesn’t mean a civilised country should do it.

Edited 16 August, 2021 by Warriorsaint
I was rude

[badgerx16]

Just now, whelk said:

Of course they do. But the world is complex and without going on as nauseam we created situation so have to take responsibility.

To continue the circular argument for one more rotation; For how long ? The UK ha splayed it's part in the current situation, but we are bound up with the USofA, and they are doing their own thing, which leaves us with Hobson's choice. If you want to rant and rage at anybody, take it up with Trump, he started this current fiasco.

[Warriorsaint]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

To continue the circular argument for one more rotation; For how long ? The UK ha splayed it's part in the current situation, but we are bound up with the USofA, and they are doing their own thing, which leaves us with Hobson's choice. If you want to rant and rage at anybody, take it up with Trump, he started this current fiasco.

Absolutely, no one comes out of this with any credit at all. A plague on all their houses. 

[badgerx16]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

Yes I believe the research you have done. Lol. 

Even if true. The majority of the uk believes in state sanctioned murder i.e capital punishment. Doesn’t mean a civilised country should do it.

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/us-public-supports-withdrawal-afghanistan

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/551040-poll-73-percent-support-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan

 

Admittedly the percentage in support has dropped in the last 48 hours, but the majority are still in favour.

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Even if true. The majority of the uk believes in state sanctioned murder i.e capital punishment. Doesn’t mean a civilised country should do it.

I think you meant the US. 😉

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/commentary-and-analysis/blogs/us-public-supports-withdrawal-afghanistan

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/551040-poll-73-percent-support-us-withdrawal-from-afghanistan

 

Admittedly the percentage in support has dropped in the last 48 hours, but the majority are still in favour.

I edited my post to remove the dig. That was rude

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

I think you meant the US. 😉

Nope, majority of Brits back capital punishment but we don’t necessarily do what the majority want. That way lies mob rule.

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, Warriorsaint said:

I edited my post to remove the dig. That was rude

Don't worry, as you can tell by my post count I am a veteran of this forum - I have developed the necessary thick skin.

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

To continue the circular argument for one more rotation; For how long ? The UK ha splayed it's part in the current situation, but we are bound up with the USofA, and they are doing their own thing, which leaves us with Hobson's choice. If you want to rant and rage at anybody, take it up with Trump, he started this current fiasco.

When ‘we’ I mean the west. I have no idea for how long but again we should have faith that it was possible to manage withdrawal better and not say oh well your own army were shit so what could we do.

British press doesn’t seem to be as supportive as Saintsweb for the strategy.

[Warriorsaint]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

When ‘we’ I mean the west. I have no idea for how long but again we should have faith that it was possible to manage withdrawal better and not say oh well your own army were shit so what could we do.

British press doesn’t seem to be as supportive as Saintsweb for the strategy.

Dont consider them the British press, sorry. Both rags not fit for my arse.

[Warriorsaint]

I can agree, however with the tagline,  we have just lost the war on terror. You know the WHOLE REASON we were there.

[CB Fry]

8 hours ago, whelk said:

Any point bothering with any Western support to Haitians suffering from their earth quake?

You're the one saying gibe all our money to Afghanistan for infinity because it's, like, all our fault. So I don't think you get to play that card.

Of course we should be giving aid.

[egg]

14 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

You're the one saying gibe all our money to Afghanistan for infinity because it's, like, all our fault. So I don't think you get to play that card.

Of course we should be giving aid.

We should, but France finally reimbursing the reparation money that it took from Haiti over 6 generations would go along to giving that country hope. 

[CB Fry]

8 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

Even if true. The majority of the uk believes in state sanctioned murder i.e capital punishment. Doesn’t mean a civilised country should do it.

It's going to blow your mind if you ever look up what the population of Afghanistan believe.

Funnily enough they tend to be a weeny more bit strict than the UK population on things like the death penalty and when it should be applied, and how people should live their live across other aspects of Sharia/Islamic law.

The Taliban are taking a country back to the dark ages, but they all have strolled in because enough of the people are behind them, versus the westernised alternative. That's kinda why the Taliban haven't taken over here - not really got that popular foothold in the UK, what with Ant and Dec and social freedom and the permissive society and everything.

It's awfully cute that people on this forum getting upset about this one that just happens to be in the news today, especially when all I see is the riding of two horses = its all our fault, why does the West meddle and interfere and also why doesn't the west get in there and sort it all out and never leave.

I've never read so much fucking humbug.

[CB Fry]

3 minutes ago, egg said:

We should, but France finally reimbursing the reparation money that it took from Haiti over 6 generations would go along to giving that country hope. 

Agree, and there is plenty of money the UK have gained off the back of imperialism as well.

Which of course, on another thread, on another day, the people on this thread with their crocodile tears and their "empathy" over this thing whats in the news today, will suddenly change tack somewhat.

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, whelk said:

Let’s be clear you take Taliban control as a sign it is what the Afghani population wants. Seriously do you ever read round subjects? Incredible on so many subjects you miss so much

Let's be clear, for NATO to stay in Afghanistan imposing Western ways and culture on a nation that clearly knows no better (), involves more than just a financial cost.

The Taliban has been 'quiet' during the past 18 months and the death toll has reduced virtually to nothing precisely BECAUSE the West agreed to withdraw its troops.

Had that agreement not been forthcoming, the Taliban would have continued to kill NATO troops in the same way it had for the previous 18 years.  How many more lives should have been wasted trying to impose our Western culture on a country that doesn't want it?  What value do you place on each life lost in our never ending occupation of a country that doesn't want us there (I know you struggle sometimes, so I'll point out you don't need to answer that one as we all know how much value you place on the people you insist should stay and keep the natives under control ad infinitum).

Incredible on so many subjects you miss so much.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Let's be clear, for NATO to stay in Afghanistan imposing Western ways and culture on a nation that clearly knows no better (), involves more than just a financial cost.

The Taliban has been 'quiet' during the past 18 months and the death toll has reduced virtually to nothing precisely BECAUSE the West agreed to withdraw its troops.

Had that agreement not been forthcoming, the Taliban would have continued to kill NATO troops in the same way it had for the previous 18 years.  How many more lives should have been wasted trying to impose our Western culture on a country that doesn't want it?  What value do you place on each life lost in our never ending occupation of a country that doesn't want us there (I know you struggle sometimes, so I'll point out you don't need to answer that one as we all know how much value you place on the people you insist should stay and keep the natives under control ad infinitum).

Incredible on so many subjects you miss so much.

Yep. The Afghan people won't want the brutality of the Taliban, but it's arrogant of the west to insist that they have what we have. Those that keep on about needing to stay involved to curb the threat of terrorism from Afghanistan need to understand why there's a threat. Further meddling in the affairs of that country only heightens the risk. Not our circus, not our animals. 

[Warriorsaint]

Ok, we’ll leave the I told you so until the next atrocity in Tokyo, Seattle, Newcastle.

People tend to forget the Us has stationed troops in Germany, Philipines, Korea, all over the  place after the war has been won to keep a presence. Afganistan is no different.

 

[egg]

1 minute ago, Warriorsaint said:

Ok, we’ll leave the I told you so until the next atrocity in Tokyo, Seattle, Newcastle.

People tend to forget the Us has stationed troops in Germany, Philipines, Korea, all over the  place after the war has been won to keep a presence. Afganistan is no different.

 

And why do you think there's a risk of that? They haven't got the hump with us because we've respectfully left them and their people to their own devices have they, but yet you insist that they we carry on meddling. Messed logic. 

[CB Fry]

26 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Ok, we’ll leave the I told you so until the next atrocity in Tokyo, Seattle, Newcastle.

Funny really, because next time that does happen, you won't be able to move for people saying "this is what happens when the imperial West interferes in other nations". But here you are calling for more and ongoing interference.

 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, CB Fry said:

Funny really, because next time that does happen, you won't be able to move for people saying "this is what happens when the imperial West interferes in other nations". But here you are calling for more and ongoing interference.

 

They should never have been invaded but I think the point is that once you have interfered you have a duty at the very least to at least attempt to leave in a proper fashion. If it is the case that the Taliban had bribed various officials to provide a seamless and unchallenged march to victory as soon as the US left, then its a rather monumental intelligence failure that this wasn't recognised and plans made sooner to get those who helped out. German officials essentially saying "well we didn't force them to help us" about Afghan interpreters is pretty disgusting and isn't going to encourage local assistance should invasions ever be required in future. 

Edited 17 August, 2021 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

56 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Ok, we’ll leave the I told you so until the next atrocity in Tokyo, Seattle, Newcastle.

People tend to forget the Us has stationed troops in Germany, Philipines, Korea, all over the  place after the war has been won to keep a presence. Afganistan is no different.

 

The US troops in Germany are not viewed, at least by a significant portion of the population, as an occupation force imposing an alien set of social and political views. Ditto South Korea, ditto the Phillipines. No US soldier in those countries has ever been shot at or blown up by an IED.

Stupid comparison.

[Noodles34]

2 hours ago, CB Fry said:

It's going to blow your mind if you ever look up what the population of Afghanistan believe.

Funnily enough they tend to be a weeny more bit strict than the UK population on things like the death penalty and when it should be applied, and how people should live their live across other aspects of Sharia/Islamic law.

The Taliban are taking a country back to the dark ages, but they all have strolled in because enough of the people are behind them, versus the westernised alternative. That's kinda why the Taliban haven't taken over here - not really got that popular foothold in the UK, what with Ant and Dec and social freedom and the permissive society and everything.

It's awfully cute that people on this forum getting upset about this one that just happens to be in the news today, especially when all I see is the riding of two horses = its all our fault, why does the West meddle and interfere and also why doesn't the west get in there and sort it all out and never leave.

I've never read so much fucking humbug.

That’s just simply not true. The school bully is not popular but he’s still in control. 
The Hazara and the tajiks for example definitely don’t want the Taliban and even many Pashto. 
The Afghan people would much prefer to return to local rule by tribal leaders in their own sect. 
Hard to believe but in the 70’s Kabul was known as the Paris of the East, and the country was a frequent stopping point on the hippie trail from London to Delhi. But even back then the place was a tribal minefield but it was much more regionalised and fairly self governed. 
As I said previously, the Taliban rose from the ashes of the US leaving the country to rot after the Russians were deposed, ironic really. 
 

[CB Fry]

35 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The US troops in Germany are not viewed, at least by a significant portion of the population, as an occupation force imposing an alien set of social and political views. Ditto South Korea, ditto the Phillipines. No US soldier in those countries has ever been shot at or blown up by an IED.

Stupid comparison.

Especially when you consider the US airbases in, er, the UK.