Afghanistan

[Weston Super Saint]

40 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Leaving thousands of people who would otherwise have left safely at the mercy of the Taliban is the issue. A scramble to remove American and British nationals is a shameful embarrassment not to mention Afghani allies. 

I can only imagine that when they spent millions of dollars training the Afghan security forces, teaching them tactics, providing weapons etc etc, that they thought the country would remain relatively 'safe' for a long time, maybe even indefinitely.

I doubt that they envisaged that the Afghan forces would capitulate in little under 2 weeks, necessitating the requirement to remove American and British nationals.

You do realise though that it isn't just American and British nationals being removed?  It must also be embarrasing for :

Germany

Canada

Pakistan

Netherlands

Switzerland

Czech Republic

Denmark

Sweden

Spain

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

It does look bad, I don't think the US could have imagined such a capitulation by the Govt forces though. Billions of $$ spent on training & state of the art equipment for 300,000 men , they can't be accused of leaving them without a paddle. If the Afghans haven't the will or the courage to stand up for their country given that, they never will. This was a once in a millenium opportunity for them to drag the country out of the dark ages, but I suppose the psychological spectre of the Taliban was not realized. From a purely Western POV, all those British, NATO and US troops killed, ultimately for absolutely nothing. What a fucking pointless waste.

Exactly.

Good post.

[aintforever]

23 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

 I don't think the US could have imagined such a capitulation by the Govt forces though. 

I think they were warned of exactly that from people on the ground from what they said on the news last night.  

[whelk]

20 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

It does look bad, I don't think the US could have imagined such a capitulation by the Govt forces though. Billions of $$ spent on training & state of the art equipment for 300,000 men , they can't be accused of leaving them without a paddle. If the Afghans haven't the will or the courage to stand up for their country given that, they never will. This was a once in a millenium opportunity for them to drag the country out of the dark ages, but I suppose the psychological spectre of the Taliban was not realized. From a purely Western POV, all those British, NATO and US troops killed, ultimately for absolutely nothing. What a fucking pointless waste.

You don’t think the US could have imagined? Really?  Saw exactly the same situation in Iraq and naive in extreme if you thought the US thought they would stand firm against the Taliban - on a hiding to nothing. What do you think they do in the Pentagon?
And as for questioning will and courage - so that’s it is it, it’s their fault - didn’t show the British spirit in adversity?

[badgerx16]

58 minutes ago, whelk said:

 Did you consider the Weston factor?

 

What should the US have done differently ? Biden said during the Presidential election that he would stick to Trump's withdrawal p!an - in fact he extended it as Trump said all US troops would be out by May 1st, ( despite the bollox he is now spouting as he yet again revises history ). There were just 5000 US troops in the country, the Afghan army was over 300k, equipped with top grade modern weaponry, and trained. by the most professional militaries in the World. All security tasks were being undertaken by the Afghans. Even without the agreement with the Taliban, sooner or later the US and it's allies would have had to leave and demonstrate faith in the local regime, or risk a resurgence of fighting.

Edited 16 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[buctootim]

Analysis I've heard is that the Afghan security forces were deliberately set up to be reliant on US command and control to sto hem getting too independent and / or uppity - which left them useless once the head left.  Other issue is the regional commanders had agreed over a year ago to give up peacefully to the Taliban as part of the peace deal in Doha.    

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What should the US have done differently ? 

Probably secure Kabul whilst they processed the visas of those who would have to leave.

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Probably secure Kabul whilst they processed the visas of those who would have to leave.

How many do you accept, under what criteria ? It could be tens and tens of thousands. There was a story of one translator who was refused a visa because he lacked "meritorious conduct" - he had been previously caught smoking in a non-smoking area of the base he was serving in.

I understand that people see this as abandoning the population of the country, but the exit was always likely to be an omnishambles, as we have seen with previous US led military interventions.

Edited 16 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

How many do you accept, under what criteria ? It could be tens and tens of thousands.

 

God knows, but obviously some people there who have been working with our forces face certain death for them and their families - surely it is only right that they can safely leave?

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

How many do you accept, under what criteria ? It could be tens and tens of thousands. There was a story of one translator who was refused a visa because he lacked "meritorious conduct" - he had been previously caught smoking in a non-smoking area of the base he was serving in.

I understand that people see this as abandoning the population of the country, but the exit was always likely to be an omnishambles, as we have seen with previous US led military interventions.

There was clearly an opportunity to do things better than this. Processing quite a few people and a small amount getting left behind isn't exactly the same as the current situation is it. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

There was clearly an opportunity to do things better than this. Processing quite a few people and a small amount getting left behind isn't exactly the same as the current situation is it. 

That would require US foreign policy makers to show common sense and a touch of humanity.

[whelk]

46 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What should the US have done differently ? Biden said during the Presidential election that he would stick to Trump's withdrawal p!an - in fact he extended it as Trump said all US troops would be out by May 1st, ( despite the bollox he is now spouting as he yet again revises history ). There were just 5000 US troops in the country, the Afghan army was over 300k, equipped with top grade modern weaponry, and trained. by the most professional militaries in the World. All security tasks were being undertaken by the Afghans. Even without the agreement with the Taliban, sooner or later the US and it's allies would have had to leave and demonstrate faith in the local regime, or risk a resurgence of fighting.

Air support is key. Taliban marched unimpeded and has lead to mass panic in Kabul. It was our moral obligation to look after the people better and if that means looking after thousands than so be it. Our sense of fair play is what sets our values and allows us (to some degree) to intervene, hopefully that we want to give countries a stable democracy. We can all be cynical and know that is not always the aim but West had values. No country should trust us anymore though.

agree:

 

Edited 16 August, 2021 by whelk

[hypochondriac]

speaks for itself: 

[Noodles34]

35 minutes ago, whelk said:

Air support is key. Taliban marched unimpeded and has lead to mass panic in Kabul. It was our moral obligation to look after the people better and if that means looking after thousands than so be it. Our sense of fair play is what sets our values and allows us (to some degree) to intervene, hopefully that we want to give countries a stable democracy. We can all be cynical and know that is not always the aim but West had values. No country should trust us anymore though.

agree:

 

And there you have it. The US and UK and NATO want to implement democracy, just like Syria, just like Iraq and yet that region does not need democracy, it needs stable leadership like Saddam Hussien for example, didn’t tolerate AQ, sure was a cunt to a lot of people but did the west have to worry too much about Iraq, not really until the bible bashing loonies of Blair and Bush decided he had a load of hidden weapons of mass destruction. Stable government in Afghanistan is an impossible task, it’s a country full of different states that have their own codes and languages and the word democracy makes me laugh, because it works in the west ( well, sort of) we should make sure those commies in Vietnam or Korea abide by it and now in the Middle East and Central Asia. If you have visited that region you’d know, it just don’t work like that there and the west invading and ruling ain’t going to change that. Eventually, these states will sort themselves out, they will do it themselves and drag them themselves into the 21st century, but that it a fair while off. 

[whelk]

19 minutes ago, Noodles34 said:

And there you have it. The US and UK and NATO want to implement democracy, just like Syria, just like Iraq and yet that region does not need democracy, it needs stable leadership like Saddam Hussien for example, didn’t tolerate AQ, sure was a cunt to a lot of people but did the west have to worry too much about Iraq, not really until the bible bashing loonies of Blair and Bush decided he had a load of hidden weapons of mass destruction. Stable government in Afghanistan is an impossible task, it’s a country full of different states that have their own codes and languages and the word democracy makes me laugh, because it works in the west ( well, sort of) we should make sure those commies in Vietnam or Korea abide by it and now in the Middle East and Central Asia. If you have visited that region you’d know, it just don’t work like that there and the west invading and ruling ain’t going to change that. Eventually, these states will sort themselves out, they will do it themselves and drag them themselves into the 21st century, but that it a fair while off. 

I get your point but Saddam wasn’t harmless to West. Like many despots he pushed his luck by invading Kuwait. We fucked over the Kurds then similar to what is going on in Afghanistan.

[whelk]

4 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

 

[badgerx16]

57 minutes ago, whelk said:

I get your point but Saddam wasn’t harmless to West. Like many despots he pushed his luck by invading Kuwait. We fucked over the Kurds then similar to what is going on in Afghanistan.

Saddam was yet another bastard of a dictator who developed a sense of invulnerability because the West armed and suported him against one of their perceived pariah states - in his case the Iran Iraq war. Ironically, once he started getting too big for his boots the CIA started covertly arming Iran as well.

[Warriorsaint]

Its not embarrassing. Its shameful. All those soldiers lives lost, maimed. For what. Great Britain amongst other great military powers beaten by the the Taliban.

Just waiting for the the next terrorist atrocity in London or New York. 
 

That is the real world reason we were there and now sent home with tail between legs.

Btw it was nice to hear from the Foreign secretary after hes come home from his hols.

What a cowardly act. If you are there finish the job or else it is all in vain.

[AlexLaw76]

28 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Its not embarrassing. Its shameful. All those soldiers lives lost, maimed. For what. Great Britain amongst other great military powers beaten by the the Taliban.

Just waiting for the the next terrorist atrocity in London or New York. 
 

That is the real world reason we were there and now sent home with tail between legs.

Btw it was nice to hear from the Foreign secretary after hes come home from his hols.

What a cowardly act. If you are there finish the job or else it is all in vain.

Just a question if I may.   How long and how much more money would you accept to 'finish the job'?

 

[egg]

8 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Just a question if I may.   How long and how much more money would you accept to 'finish the job'?

 

I posed a similar question above.

What's been happening over there is dreadful, and it'll get worse. Unless people are suggesting that the West should have stayed around indefinitely, I'm not quite sure what people expected to happen.

We should never have meddled, all we've achieved is a more resilient Taliban, more internal division, and lots of destruction. Sad situation. 

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Just a question if I may.   How long and how much more money would you accept to 'finish the job'?

 

And how is 'finish the job' defined?

[Jonnyboy]

6 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

What should the US have done differently ? Biden said during the Presidential election that he would stick to Trump's withdrawal p!an - in fact he extended it as Trump said all US troops would be out by May 1st, ( despite the bollox he is now spouting as he yet again revises history ). There were just 5000 US troops in the country, the Afghan army was over 300k, equipped with top grade modern weaponry, and trained. by the most professional militaries in the World. All security tasks were being undertaken by the Afghans. Even without the agreement with the Taliban, sooner or later the US and it's allies would have had to leave and demonstrate faith in the local regime, or risk a resurgence of fighting.

And now those 300K well equipped troops work for the Taliban. 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, Jonnyboy said:

And now those 300K well equipped troops work for the Taliban. 

No they don't, they ran away. They'll return to some version of whatever civilian life they had before they signed up.

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

No they don't, they ran away. They'll return to some version of whatever civilian life they had before they signed up.

They may not have heads of course

[Warriorsaint]

8 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Leaving thousands of people who would otherwise have left safely at the mercy of the Taliban is the issue. A scramble to remove American and British nationals is a shameful embarrassment not to mention Afghani allies. 

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

[kyle04]

21 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

A bit harsh, this is not a Dunkirk situation when the BEF were almost driven into the sea by a superior force. All NATO member soldiers in Afghanistan were there as a support to the main US presence, militarily but mainly politically. Again, the Western powers had built a well equipped native army of 300,000, to put that into perspective that's twice as many personel as the entire UK armed forces. They all fled in the face of the "enemy" with no resistance.  As a nation we've given that country 20 years, lost 454 dead and many more mentally scarred by the experience. Maybe another 10 or 20 years might have seen another outcome, but I doubt it.

[whelk]

41 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

Spot on.

[CB Fry]

43 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

But what you have written here is contrarian and whatabout whatabout whatabout.

This is an over simplistic review of the situation based on the concept of "if only the USA did A and B then everything would be fine". The fact you are conflating it with the EU bill shows how little you understand any of the reality of the situation and are just scatter gunning targets of "things you don't like" and chucking ot all in together.

You're blathering on about "staying and fight" but they haven't been "fighting". They've been training up the domestic army. 

Anyway, I don't really want to get involved in a conversation about Afghanistan on this forum, least if all with a repeated multiple login multiple forum personality nutjob.

Why didn't Antrimsaint stay and fight?

 

[egg]

53 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

Yep its shit. How long should we have stayed? 

[AlexLaw76]

53 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

I am not surprised their Army wilted at the first opportunity.  A very good friend completed a few tours out there, spent a great deal of time training various elements of their armed forces (command and control, that sort of thing).  He used to be terrified.  Terrified because the general soldier (and the officers) were largely useless, most of the time high and could not stop bumming each other when supposed to be training.  He said they literally would stop for the day and get wasted.

[Baird of the land]

Biden was left with a pretty unenviable choice with situation trump left him imo. Pour back forces back in (suffer fresh rounds of deaths) or get out. Given the history of the region a positive long term outcome to re-engagement seems unlikely. The soviets failed there and i’d Say they were likely less squeamish than west.

[Warriorsaint]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep its shit. How long should we have stayed? 

 Containment was working so maybe indefinitely. As long as it stopped bombs on our streets and helped the Afghans.

[Warriorsaint]

Shortsighted. Its ok to wait 50 years for Brexit benefits but 20 years to stifle terrorists too long.

Al Qaida partying tonight!

[Lighthouse]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

 Containment was working so maybe indefinitely. As long as it stopped bombs on our streets and helped the Afghans.

It could be argued that the Taliban eased off somewhat on their insurgency to encourage coalition forces to withdraw. Had we made it known we were in it for the long haul, they’d probably redouble their efforts against our troops.

[egg]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

 Containment was working so maybe indefinitely. As long as it stopped bombs on our streets and helped the Afghans.

The harsh reality probably is that it was indefinitely or nothing. Indefinitely was not realistic, but what those people have is dire. Tough call, but unless we were willing to stay and contain forever more, was there an alternative?

[whelk]

No US military casualties since Feb 2020. BIden didn’t need to either get out or ramp up.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

It could be argued that the Taliban eased off somewhat on their insurgency to encourage coalition forces to withdraw. Had we made it known we were in it for the long haul, they’d probably redouble their efforts against our troops.

Yep. All whilst building, strengthening and plotting. Absolute mess of a situation, but we've left carnage pretty much everywhere we've meddled.

[Baird of the land]

1 minute ago, Lighthouse said:

It could be argued that the Taliban eased off somewhat on their insurgency to encourage coalition forces to withdraw. Had we made it known we were in it for the long haul, they’d probably redouble their efforts against our troops.

Until trump’s deal to withdraw there still seemed to be us casualties. Offering an indefinite sacrifice of your citizens doesn’t seem very sustainable politically.

[Warriorsaint]

Just now, Baird of the land said:

Until trump’s deal to withdraw there still seemed to be us casualties. Offering an indefinite sacrifice of your citizens doesn’t seem very sustainable politically.

Until another building comes down as will happen. We learn nothing.

[whelk]

13 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I am not surprised their Army wilted at the first opportunity.  A very good friend completed a few tours out there, spent a great deal of time training various elements of their armed forces (command and control, that sort of thing).  He used to be terrified.  Terrified because the general soldier (and the officers) were largely useless, most of the time high and could not stop bumming each other when supposed to be training.  He said they literally would stop for the day and get wasted.

Did they bum first then get wasted or get wasted and then do the bumming?

[whelk]

Just now, Warriorsaint said:

Until another building comes down as will happen. We learn nothing.

Not going to happen. UN have asked the Taliban to have an inclusive government.

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Did they bum first then get wasted or get wasted and then do the bumming?

The Quran does state that if a man lies with another man he shall surely be stoned.

[badgerx16]

30 minutes ago, whelk said:

Spot on.

No it isn't.

[whelk]

Just now, Lighthouse said:

The Quran does state that if a man lies with another man he shall surely be stoned.

Very good

[kyle04]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

Did they bum first then get wasted or get wasted and then do the bumming?

May have been a crucial weapon in their arsenal, if we capture a Taliban, we will bum him.  Badly. War over in a week.

[whelk]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

No it isn't.

Oh yes it is

[Warriorsaint]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Not going to happen. UN have asked the Taliban to have an inclusive government.

‘UN have asked the Taliban’ lol 😂 

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Warriorsaint said:

Didn’t think I would agree with you ever but on this yes. It’s shameful. Not just the betrayal of allies and leaving them to slaughter, because that is whats going on right now, tonight. 
It is a betrayal of our own troops, the cannon fodder for Olivers army and the £40 billion already wasted.

Also for the armchair warriors with no empathy, how much more money? Maybe £350 million a week we saved by coming out of the EU eh?

Maybe those who apologise for this cowardly act forget New York, London, Madrid, Paris, Bali and the rest. I haven’t. Those training camps are been given succour now as we speak and the idiots who cheer this will conveniently forget that the next attack on our streets will come from these camps.

Welcome to the beheadings on the news. Anyone remember the British teacher who had his head hacked off. I do.

utterly shameful and not British. At least the ambassador stayed and helped get as many out as possible. There was once a time when Brits would stay and fight. Not any more. The Us and UK have betrayed our troops and their families.

I know the contrarians will but, but, but, but, whatabout.

This is not our finest hour. Shame and capitulation.

Well there's quite a bit of that I disagree with so I'm not sure we do share the same opinion I'm afraid. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Well there's quite a bit of that I disagree with so I'm not sure we do share the same opinion I'm afraid. 

I always knew you and Fry were the same person😀

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

Oh yes it is

Suddenly it's pantomime season.