Afghanistan

[badgerx16]

Just now, whelk said:

Ohh so now the Taliban are the good guys. All very planned. Goodo

Don't be a twat. Read the reports coming out of the country. People have been saying for years that they are sick of paying bribes for every interaction with government officials and judicial processes.

[whelk]

You do realise it has been labelled US’s day of shame? Must be baffling you and not sure why not being the celebrated as the day Afghan rid itself of corruption?

[kyle04]

12 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Correct. Reports that local police, armed forces and politicians welcoming the Taliban with open arms. Sounds like the country has spoken about who it wants to control it....

Probably afraid of being beheaded, or worse. Who can blame them?

Now the Russians will effectively have the major influence in the region, as planned many years ago no doubt.

[Weston Super Saint]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

I am sure you will relate to the collaborator spirit.

Weird post.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

Probably afraid of being beheaded, or worse. Who can blame them?

Now the Russians will effectively have the major influence in the region, as planned many years ago no doubt.

There has been little to no violence.

The Russians tried to control Afghanistan, how did that end up?

[badgerx16]

Just now, whelk said:

You do realise it has been labelled US’s day of shame? Must be baffling you and not sure why not being the celebrated as the day Afghan rid itself of corruption?

You really are being an idiot. I am not 'celebrating' a political disaster that puts thousands of people at risk and will throw the social progress of the last 20 years out of the window. The facts are ;

1) that the US has done what the US always does - looks after it's own interests. The country is fundamentally isolationist at heart.

2) Afghanistan is the latest in a string of US led interventions in muslim countries where there was never a coherent consolidation and stability plan to be introduced after the military blitz.

3) The people of Afghanistan deserve better from their leaders, but the country has always been riven by factionalism based on tribal rivalries and religious conservatism. No amount of western interference is going to change that.

[whelk]

4 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

There has been little to no violence.

The Russians tried to control Afghanistan, how did that end up?

You really are a simpleton.

[Lighthouse]

I get the feeling our best bet is to stand as far back as possible, having evacuated any of our own interests. Let the Taliban have it and go back to squabbling amongst themselves, on the understanding that we’ll be watching them and at the first hint of terror attacks against the west, we’re sending in the drones.

[whelk]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

You really are being an idiot. I am not 'celebrating' a political disaster that puts thousands of people at risk and will throw the social progress of the last 20 years out of the window. The facts are ;

1) that the US has done what the US always does - looks after it's own interests. The country is fundamentally isolationist at heart.

2) Afghanistan is the latest in a string of US led interventions in muslim countries where there was never a coherent consolidation and stability plan to be introduced after the military blitz.

3) The people of Afghanistan deserve better from their leaders, but the country has always been riven by factionalism based on tribal rivalries and religious conservatism. No amount of western interference is going to change that.

I get all that. Aware absolutely that we have fucked it up. But we have absolutely stitched up the people and many are now terrified and no wonder. 

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, whelk said:

I get all that. Aware absolutely that we have fucked it up. But we have absolutely stitched up the people and many are now terrified and no wonder. 

So, what could we have done differently ? The US chose to pull out, they were fed up of their "second Vietnam". We had no choice but to leave with them.

Edited 15 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[Weston Super Saint]

51 minutes ago, whelk said:

You really are a simpleton.

Educate me oh wise one.

Which bit of my post was wrong?

[Warriorsaint]

Proud to be British, no not today!

[suewhistle]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Educate me oh wise one.

Which bit of my post was wrong?

He quoted what he was replying to: is that so difficult to understand.

 

And yes, there has been violence and reprisals. Women, particularly educated women, are in fear all over the country.

[egg]

17 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

He quoted what he was replying to: is that so difficult to understand.

 

And yes, there has been violence and reprisals. Women, particularly educated women, are in fear all over the country.

There is violence there, and the situation will be dire for many, women included (ditto academics, journalists, government officials, soldiers, police, etc etc). However, what are the west expected to do? We could not stay there indefinitely - withdrawal at some point was inevitable, and after the US made their decision us following suit was inevitable. 

[Weston Super Saint]

23 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

He quoted what he was replying to: is that so difficult to understand.

 

And yes, there has been violence and reprisals. Women, particularly educated women, are in fear all over the country.

Sorry, did I claim there was no violence?

[Warriorsaint]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Sorry, did I claim there was no violence?

Contrarian. Why is it that those who have least to contribute shout the loudest?

[whelk]

11 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Sorry, did I claim there was no violence?

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Educate me oh wise one.

Which bit of my post was wrong?

I prefer to listen to eye witnesses who claim the Taliban executed the men and boys of their village. You know they have a history you must have stumbled upon in your extensive research. Quite brutal you will find. 
But you take submission of a petrified population as some sign that they are embracing their rule.  Yes fucking stupid.

Maybe try even watching the news?

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, Warriorsaint said:

Contrarian. Why is it that those who have least to contribute shout the loudest?

Why is it there are a lot of new members who immediately pick up a sparring with the same posters ones that recently stopped posting had?

[Baird of the land]

Was always coming unfortunately. Very sad for those in cities losing freedoms. Shocking to see how an uncommitted army of 300k can collapse before a much smaller but fanatical force.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, whelk said:

 

And yet, in the grand scheme of a complete regime change for the entire country there has been little to no violence, especially given that these occurrences tend to be particularly bloody and brutal affairs.

To elaborate for whelk and sue who are clearly struggling with the concept, I am NOT stating there has been no violence at all. I am pointing out that the amount of violence has been miniscule when compared to other regime changes when the entire government has been overthrown.

Figured out what the word abruptly means yet?

Edited 15 August, 2021 by Weston Super Saint

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Why is it there are a lot of new members who immediately pick up a sparring with the same posters ones that recently stopped posting had?

Clever one that Antrim

Fooled everyone.

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

Why is it there are a lot of new members who immediately pick up a sparring with the same posters ones that recently stopped posting had?

I've thought the same. Been happening for a while. Definitely a few alter egos here alongside their  usual poster too. Some are easier to spot than others. CollinsDic was an easy one, and I suspect he's phoenixed as someone new. 

[whelk]

6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

And yet, in the grand scheme of a complete regime change for the entire country there has been little to no violence, especially given that these occurrences tend to be particularly bloody and brutal affairs.

To elaborate for whelk and sue who are clearly struggling with the concept, I am NOT stating there has been no violence at all. I am pointing out that the amount of violence has been miniscule when compared to other regime changes when the entire government has been overthrown.

Figured out what the word abruptly means yet?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/2/afghanistan-ghani-blames-abrupt-us-exit-for-worsening-security
in the headline sweetpea 

Your posts speak for yourself pal. 

[Plastic]

From the BBC. Who are we to argue against this viewpoint?

—-

As a White House candidate in 2019, Mr Biden reminded voters that he would be the first president since Dwight Eisenhower in the 1950s to have a child serve in an active conflict.

In his memoir Richard Holbrooke, who was special envoy to Afghanistan in the early Obama years, remembered Mr Biden angrily telling him he was "not sending my boy back there to risk his life on behalf of [Afghan] women's rights... That's not what they're there for".

[Noodles34]

Let’s not forget why the Taliban were formed in Kandahar. Because the US left the country to the warlords after the Russians left. The crime and corruption was paramount to Mullah Omar rounding up a load of his mates and trying to restore  law and order, in their own Islamist way of course. Ironically they were orginally a force for good but of course as always, power leads to contempt and it’s a shame that the Northern Alliance under Massoud were never given the backing to stabilise the country, though I doubt even that would have happened. Anyone surprised by any of this doesn’t understand the region and the tribal politics. We’re back to square one. 

Edited 15 August, 2021 by Noodles34

[egg]

2 minutes ago, Noodles34 said:

Let’s not forget why the Taliban were formed in Kandahar. Because the US left the country to the warlords after the Russians left. The crime and corruption was paramount to Mullah Omar rounding up a load of his mates and trying to restore  law and order, in their own Islamist way of course. Ironically they were orginally a force for good but of course as always, power leads to contempt and it’s a shame that the Northern Alliance under Massoud were never given the backing to stabilise the country, though I doubt even that would have happened. Anyone surprised by any of this doesn’t understand the region and the tribal politics. We’re back to square one. 

Yep, and we are back to square one. However, and although we've (the west) have been integral in creating this mess, we had to walk away at some point. 

Sadly, Afghanistan is yet another country where the meddling of the waste has created problems that will likely never go away. 

[Plastic]

13 minutes ago, egg said:

Sadly, Afghanistan is yet another country where the meddling of the west has created problems that will likely never go away. 

Afghanistan was a disaster before the occupation, the Taliban essentially provided the blueprint for ISIS and murdered thousands during their previous incarnation. The US invasion and subsequent sham democracy simply provided a 20 year pause.

Edited 15 August, 2021 by Plastic

[AlexLaw76]

On 13/08/2021 at 12:21, moonraker said:

It’s reasonable to say the war was won, 

Still believe this?

[Weston Super Saint]

8 hours ago, whelk said:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/8/2/afghanistan-ghani-blames-abrupt-us-exit-for-worsening-security
in the headline sweetpea 

Your posts speak for yourself pal. 

The headline is taken from a quote by Ghani who claims the US left 'abruptly'.

In the article (which I assume you didn't even bother to read!) he also claims :

"The war torn nation will be under control in six months" (to be fair it actually only took two weeks, but I guess not in the same way he envisaged...).

"The reason for our current situation is the decision was taken abruptly" (By Obama, over a decade ago!).

"Protection of the people is a duty he will maintain" (pretty sure he's now left the country!).

"The Afghan Army will sacrifice their lives for the nation" (or roll over and have their bellies tickled).

 

I guess if you're happy to believe that the US left abruptly based on the ramblings of a man with such an obvious lack of grip on reality, then you go ahead and snuggle up to that comfort blanket!

[Jeremy Corbyn]

What a sad, sad situation.  Does anyone understand whether 1. America underestimated the Taliban and thought they'd be ok to withdraw or 2. They knew this was going to happen and didn't care/thought it would happen eventually anyway.

[Noodles34]

11 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

What a sad, sad situation.  Does anyone understand whether 1. America underestimated the Taliban and thought they'd be ok to withdraw or 2. They knew this was going to happen and didn't care/thought it would happen eventually anyway.

2

the Taliban never, ever went away. 

[badgerx16]

13 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

What a sad, sad situation.  Does anyone understand whether 1. America underestimated the Taliban and thought they'd be ok to withdraw or 2. They knew this was going to happen and didn't care/thought it would happen eventually anyway.

I would imagine (2) under the guise of "We have given them the training and the equipment, it is now their fight if they want to retain the progress we have helped them acheive". The biggest issue is whether the US and it's allies were truly confident in the ability of Ghani to unite and govern the country without the US Marines stood behind him.  The Taliban never went away and were quite happy playing the long game knowing that sooner or later US donestic public opinion would swing away from a war so far away from home. ( Much as Ho Chi Minh in Vietnam realised - the biggest weapon in the insurgent's arsenal was the US media. Constant pictures of explosions and stories of dead and wounded US soldiers undermine any rhetoric the Whitehouse and Pentagon churn out ).

Edited 16 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[Jeremy Corbyn]

1 minute ago, Noodles34 said:

2

the Taliban never, ever went away. 

No, but do you think the US have just come to accept the Taliban were always going to take back over or they were expecting the Afghan government/military to be able to defend more than they have?

[aintforever]

43 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

No, but do you think the US have just come to accept the Taliban were always going to take back over or they were expecting the Afghan government/military to be able to defend more than they have?

They probably realised there was two options - keeps their forces in Afghanistan forever at great cost, both of lives and money, or leave and hope the government can keep control but probably expecting they couldn't.

I just hope that we give asylum to anyone who is at risk, not just those who have worked with us. Think that is the least we should do.

[whelk]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

They probably realised there was two options - keeps their forces in Afghanistan forever at great cost, both of lives and money, or leave and hope the government can keep control but probably expecting they couldn't.

I just hope that we give asylum to anyone who is at risk, not just those who have worked with us. Think that is the least we should do.

Asylum to anyone at risk? That is millions. Still this story will go away soon and no one will give a shit about their plight esp Americans.

Back to bemoaning about the Stamp Duty break going and roaming charges in Europe.

 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

No, but do you think the US have just come to accept the Taliban were always going to take back over or they were expecting the Afghan government/military to be able to defend more than they have?

Judging by Biden's statement I imagine they were hoping that the Afghan military wouldn't capitulate, but weren't betting the house on it!

Quote

Over our country’s 20 years at war in Afghanistan, America has sent its finest young men and women, invested nearly $1 trillion dollars, trained over 300,000 Afghan soldiers and police, equipped them with state-of-the-art military equipment, and maintained their air force as part of the longest war in U.S. history. One more year, or five more years, of U.S. military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country. And an endless American presence in the middle of another country’s civil conflict was not acceptable to me.

Source

[Jeremy Corbyn]

22 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Judging by Biden's statement I imagine they were hoping that the Afghan military wouldn't capitulate, but weren't betting the house on it!

Source

Yeah, cheers.  I guess we've seen that when an army realises they can't compete they just withdraw pretty quickly, can't imagine you'd want to end up suffering defeat deep in Taliban territory.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

36 minutes ago, whelk said:

Asylum to anyone at risk? That is millions. Still this story will go away soon and no one will give a shit about their plight esp Americans.

Back to bemoaning about the Stamp Duty break going and roaming charges in Europe.

 

You're right.  But the whole situation, assuming we essentially pull the rug, just smacks of a lack of morality.  My only hope is that during the ongoing discussions that America makes it clear that if the Taliban act badly that they'll fuck 'em up.

[Matthew Le God]

 

[whelk]

5 minutes ago, Jeremy Corbyn said:

You're right.  But the whole situation, assuming we essentially pull the rug, just smacks of a lack of morality.  My only hope is that during the ongoing discussions that America makes it clear that if the Taliban act badly that they'll fuck 'em up.

That is the issue. Pause a terrorist breeding ground for 20 years. Encourage them to embrace western values and then when they have done that fuck off and leave them at the mercy of butchers who abhor and want to violently punish anyone with those values.

They are already marking houses, meanwhile civilians have all ditched their jeans and t shirts and trying to rapidly grow a beard. Of course no simple solution but feels could have been massively better than what is unfolding.

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, whelk said:

That is the issue. Pause a terrorist breeding ground for 20 years. Encourage them to embrace western values and then when they have done that fuck off and leave them at the mercy of butchers who abhor and want to violently punish anyone with those values.

They are already marking houses, meanwhile civilians have all ditched their jeans and t shirts and trying to rapidly grow a beard. Of course no simple solution but feels could have been massively better than what is unfolding.

Indeed. The problem isn't that they left its that they did it and then had no idea that everything would fall apart so quickly. It's a giant intelligence failure and it will cost many many lives. The sight of planes and weapons marked with US on them being stolen and used by the Taliban is nauseating. The people responsible should be ashamed. 

[Weston Super Saint]

36 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Indeed. The problem isn't that they left its that they did it and then had no idea that everything would fall apart so quickly. It's a giant intelligence failure and it will cost many many lives. The sight of planes and weapons marked with US on them being stolen and used by the Taliban is nauseating. The people responsible should be ashamed. 

The planes and weapons were left for the Afghan security forces to use to protect themselves.

The fact that the Afghan security forces capitulated and didn't use the hardware that was provided, presumably means they are the ones who are responsible and should be ashamed?

Or was the US supposed to withdraw and leave nothing for the local forces - I can only imagine the hand wringing it that would have happened 

[badgerx16]

I suppose one thing this thread shows is how difficult foreign policy can be.

[hypochondriac]

32 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

The planes and weapons were left for the Afghan security forces to use to protect themselves.

The fact that the Afghan security forces capitulated and didn't use the hardware that was provided, presumably means they are the ones who are responsible and should be ashamed?

Or was the US supposed to withdraw and leave nothing for the local forces - I can only imagine the hand wringing it that would have happened 

I didn't mention anything about why they were left, I was simply saying how awful it looks. Pictures beamed around the world of the Taliban in position of all this US military hardware looks terrible no matter what the reason for it being left. To leave in the manner that they did is an awful strategic error that was a huge mistake. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I didn't mention anything about why they were left, I was simply saying how awful it looks. Pictures beamed around the world of the Taliban in position of all this US military hardware looks terrible no matter what the reason for it being left. To leave in the manner that they did is an awful strategic error that was a huge mistake. 

As previously posted, quote from Biden :

Quote

One more year, or five more years, of U.S. military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country. 

source

In what manner should they have left which wouldn't have been an awful strategic error and a huge mistake?

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

As previously posted, quote from Biden :

source

In what manner should they have left which wouldn't have been an awful strategic error and a huge mistake?

Leaving thousands of people who would otherwise have left safely at the mercy of the Taliban is the issue. A scramble to remove American and British nationals is a shameful embarrassment not to mention Afghani allies. 

[aintforever]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Leaving thousands of people who would otherwise have left safely at the mercy of the Taliban is the issue. A scramble to remove American and British nationals is a shameful embarrassment not to mention Afghani allies. 

This. It has obviously been managed terribly.

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, aintforever said:

This. It has obviously been managed terribly.

Exactly. I don't see how anyone could look at this situation and not think it's absolutely horrendous. 

[whelk]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Exactly. I don't see how anyone could look at this situation and not think it's absolutely horrendous. 

 Did you consider the Weston factor?

 

[kyle04]

It does look bad, I don't think the US could have imagined such a capitulation by the Govt forces though. Billions of $$ spent on training & state of the art equipment for 300,000 men , they can't be accused of leaving them without a paddle. If the Afghans haven't the will or the courage to stand up for their country given that, they never will. This was a once in a millenium opportunity for them to drag the country out of the dark ages, but I suppose the psychological spectre of the Taliban was not realized. From a purely Western POV, all those British, NATO and US troops killed, ultimately for absolutely nothing. What a fucking pointless waste.