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whelk

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Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 08:18, Noodles34 said:

That’s just simply not true. The school bully is not popular but he’s still in control. 
The Hazara and the tajiks for example definitely don’t want the Taliban and even many Pashto. 
The Afghan people would much prefer to return to local rule by tribal leaders in their own sect. 
Hard to believe but in the 70’s Kabul was known as the Paris of the East, and the country was a frequent stopping point on the hippie trail from London to Delhi. But even back then the place was a tribal minefield but it was much more regionalised and fairly self governed. 
As I said previously, the Taliban rose from the ashes of the US leaving the country to rot after the Russians were deposed, ironic really. 
 

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Which is exactly what is being planned in Afghanistan at the moment.  The Taliban have allegedly taken 'temporary' control whilst the country is re-organised back to the tribal areas with their own 'capital' cities.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 07:33, hypochondriac said:

They should never have been invaded but I think the point is that once you have interfered you have a duty at the very least to at least attempt to leave in a proper fashion. If it is the case that the Taliban had bribed various officials to provide a seamless and unchallenged march to victory as soon as the US left, then its a rather monumental intelligence failure that this wasn't recognised and plans made sooner to get those who helped out. German officials essentially saying "well we didn't force them to help us" about Afghan interpreters is pretty disgusting and isn't going to encourage local assistance should invasions ever be required in future. 

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👏

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 06:56, egg said:

And why do you think there's a risk of that? They haven't got the hump with us because we've respectfully left them and their people to their own devices have they, but yet you insist that they we carry on meddling. Messed logic. 

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Am I missing something? The Taliban harboured Al Quiada. The Taliban back in power ergo Resurgent Al Quiada ergo attacks on Western cities. 
 

So shortsighted, but theres no point arguing with anti British cowards who drop allies at the drop of a hat.

If your argument is we shouldn’t interfere anywhere I agree. We should be a neutral country  not interfere anywhere. But you will change your mind the next time someone drops a dirty  bomb on London won’t  you?

Imagine being an ally of Britain in WW2. Indians, the Carribean, Africans. Do you really think anyone would stand by us now.

Lol, even the Chinese are warning Taiwan not to put their faith in the West as we’ll cut and run.

Cue the butbutbut whatabout.

badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:37, Warriorsaint said:

So shortsighted, but theres no point arguing with anti British cowards.......

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Guided Missile does a good line in piano wire.

 

But seriously, do you actually believe that people who disagree with you on this are "anti-British cowards" ? Such a histrionic wet blanket.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 16/08/2021 at 21:19, badgerx16 said:

What difference would it have made for the UK to spend an additional £350m a week in Afghaniaatan if the US withdrew ?

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Have you forgotten Britain had an empire of millions run by a few. The Taliban were being held by the Afghan army with a command and control structure of 2500 troops. You pull the command and the house of cards fell.

Surely the patriots don’t want to be known they were beaten by a ragtag army with guns in jeeps.

What better to showcase global Britain by taking centre stage and keeping Al Quiada at arms length. We’ve got our sovrinty back innit.

Didn’t we spaff billions on test and trace?

Plastic

Plastic

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:37, Warriorsaint said:

If your argument is we shouldn’t interfere anywhere I agree. We should be a neutral country  not interfere anywhere. But you will change your mind the next time someone drops a dirty  bomb on London won’t  you?

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So your argument is that we should maintain our occupation of Afghanistan, apparently against the will of a significant proportion of the population for an indefinite period, in order to suppress the resurgence of terrorist groups? pretty sure we tried that in Ireland…
 

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:44, badgerx16 said:

Guided Missile does a good line in piano wire.

 

But seriously, do you actually believe that people who disagree with you on this are "anti-British cowards" ? Such a histrionic wet blanket.

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Not supporting our troops yes. 450 deaths in vain. You think they would cut and run?

Histrionic, perhaps, with desperate people falling from planes trying to escape, maybe a little, but carry on watching Love Island. Its all abstract isn’t it? Not real world.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:48, Plastic said:

So your argument is that we should maintain our occupation of Afghanistan, apparently against the will of a significant proportion of the population for an indefinite period, in order to suppress the resurgence of terrorist groups? pretty sure we tried that in Ireland…
 

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Your opinion is valid but when the Houses of Parliament are blown up you can’t complain as the place the bombers  are being trained are in Helmand.

Also the Taliban are not some romantic Freedom fighters lived by the people. They are a rag tag bunch of nutters who execute adulterers and amputate limbs for petty theft. Yeah you go ahead and believe the Afghans want that.

Imagine being an apologist for the Taliban.

As for Ireland, Im sure the IRA didn’t harbour international training camps for an ideological nutjobs to bring down the west.

Should just have left Poland to it really? Wouldn’t have had WW2. Shouldn’t have interfered really.

Plastic

Plastic

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:58, Warriorsaint said:

Your opinion is valid but when the Houses of Parliament are blown up you can’t complain as the place the bombers  are being trained are in Helmand.

Also the Taliban are not some romantic Freedom fighters lived by the people. They are a rag tag bunch of nutters who execute adulterers and amputate limbs for petty theft. Yeah you go ahead and believe the Afghans want that.

Imagine being an apologist for the Taliban.

As for Ireland, Im sure the IRA didn’t harbour international training camps for an ideological nutjobs to bring down the west.

Should just have left Poland to it really? Wouldn’t have had WW2. Shouldn’t have interfered really.

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You are making a false equivalence. The Nazis weren’t Polish. The Taliban are a home grown Afghani group with what appears to be a large support base from the conservative rural areas.
Do I like their ideology? No. Does accepting the reality of the situation make me a coward and an apologist? According to you, yes.

Ground operations have spectacularly failed. I note your user name may indicate service, so I’ll tread carefully, but there are plenty of ex-servicemen who feel that the entire premise of the occupation was flawed.

What are the options in your mind? Continue the endless peacekeeping mission whereby the Taliban simply exist on the periphery and wait for the patrols to pass, perhaps taking potshots at our troops into the bargain?

Or perhaps go for Operation Crusade Mk.2, and drop munitions on the Afghan mountains until the whole country is as flat as Kansas? Nowhere for the fuckers to hide then!

CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:37, Warriorsaint said:

Am I missing something? The Taliban harboured Al Quiada. The Taliban back in power ergo Resurgent Al Quiada ergo attacks on Western cities. 
 

So shortsighted, but theres no point arguing with anti British cowards who drop allies at the drop of a hat.

If your argument is we shouldn’t interfere anywhere I agree. We should be a neutral country  not interfere anywhere. But you will change your mind the next time someone drops a dirty  bomb on London won’t  you?

Imagine being an ally of Britain in WW2. Indians, the Carribean, Africans. Do you really think anyone would stand by us now.

Lol, even the Chinese are warning Taiwan not to put their faith in the West as we’ll cut and run.

Cue the butbutbut whatabout.

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Blathering on about £350m Brexit bill, and the cost of Test and Trace (what?) and bloody World War 2 is entirely butbutbut whatabout whatabout whatabout. So I am not sure why you are accusing others of it.

Your stuff about "anti-British cowards" and "dropping our allies" is just like a fucking random word generator. What are you talking about? What allies have been dropped?

You're taking a highly complex issue and reducing it to easy-solution garbled soundbites.

Hilariously, for you, it looks like it all boils down to "they're all terrorists they're going to bomb us" which on a different thread on a different day you'd be slating someone else for making that kind of assertion.

 

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:16, Plastic said:

You are making a false equivalence

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Apologies, should have made it clearer. The Nazis invaded Poland. We knew then they wouldn’t stop there. We had an obligation to defeat a fascist regime.

To me same applies. The Taliban succeeded in taking Afganistan. They will harbour Al Quiada, Isis and the rest. They will become stronger. They will infiltrate Pakistan, Syria and the rest and eventually the West will be back again after one too many atrocities.

 I take the devil you know. Supressing the Taliban and the terrorists do not get a foothold to launch attacks and retreat to safety.

Why now after 20 years? Because it is an American domestic political decision and not a military one. Every soldier on the ground out there knows that and are ashamed of what we have done.

Their mates died and were maimed out there to keep us safe here. We are now less safe as a result.

Thats my logic.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:29, CB Fry said:

Blathering on about £350m Brexit bill, and the cost of Test and Trace (what?) and bloody World War 2 is entirely butbutbut whatabout whatabout whatabout. So I am not sure why you are accusing others of it.

Your stuff about "anti-British cowards" and "dropping our allies" is just like a fucking random word generator. What are you talking about? What allies have been dropped?

You're taking a highly complex issue and reducing it to easy-solution garbled soundbites.

Hilariously, for you, it looks like it all boils down to "they're all terrorists they're going to bomb us" which on a different thread on a different day you'd be slating someone else for making that kind of assertion.

 

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Are you drunk?

egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 09:37, Warriorsaint said:

Am I missing something? The Taliban harboured Al Quiada. The Taliban back in power ergo Resurgent Al Quiada ergo attacks on Western cities. 
 

So shortsighted, but theres no point arguing with anti British cowards who drop allies at the drop of a hat.

If your argument is we shouldn’t interfere anywhere I agree. We should be a neutral country  not interfere anywhere. But you will change your mind the next time someone drops a dirty  bomb on London won’t  you?

Imagine being an ally of Britain in WW2. Indians, the Carribean, Africans. Do you really think anyone would stand by us now.

Lol, even the Chinese are warning Taiwan not to put their faith in the West as we’ll cut and run.

Cue the butbutbut whatabout.

Expand  

I don't even know where to start with this nonsense. Terrorism is created, largely as a reaction to oppression/imperialism/occupation. 

hypochondriac

hypochondriac

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:37, egg said:

I don't even know where to start with this nonsense. Terrorism is created, largely as a reaction to oppression/imperialism/occupation. 

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I'm not sure that's true. Loads of terrorism is from religious ideogy and would occur regardless of any oppression or occupation. 

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:40, hypochondriac said:

I'm not sure that's true. Loads of terrorism is from religious ideogy and would occur regardless of any oppression or occupation. 

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Indeed, don’t think we were in Afghanistan when they killed 2500 people in New York or attacked the USS Cole.

Nah they’ll go away now they know they’ve beaten us, surely 

Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:29, Warriorsaint said:

Apologies, should have made it clearer. The Nazis invaded Poland. We knew then they wouldn’t stop there. We had an obligation to defeat a fascist regime.

To me same applies. The Taliban succeeded in taking Afganistan. They will harbour Al Quiada, Isis and the rest. They will become stronger. They will infiltrate Pakistan, Syria and the rest and eventually the West will be back again after one too many atrocities.

 I take the devil you know. Supressing the Taliban and the terrorists do not get a foothold to launch attacks and retreat to safety.

Why now after 20 years? Because it is an American domestic political decision and not a military one. Every soldier on the ground out there knows that and are ashamed of what we have done.

Their mates died and were maimed out there to keep us safe here. We are now less safe as a result.

Thats my logic.

Expand  

Sadly I think this persona isn't working.

You're equating the Nazis (Germans) invading Poland (and a fair bit more of Europe) with the goal of taking over the continent, with the Taliban who were born and raised in Afghanistan, taking (temporary) control of their own country.

Then you claim that is logical :mcinnes:

Genuinely, your posts from this morning make you look like a paranoid schizophrenic.  I hope you have the support network in place that you need.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 11:21, Weston Super Saint said:

Sadly I think this persona isn't working.

You're equating the Nazis (Germans) invading Poland (and a fair bit more of Europe) with the goal of taking over the continent, with the Taliban who were born and raised in Afghanistan, taking (temporary) control of their own country.

Then you claim that is logical :mcinnes:

Genuinely, your posts from this morning make you look like a paranoid schizophrenic.  I hope you have the support network in place that you need.

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Thanks, I do. Nice to know you make light of Mental health. Its really no surprise. Love and Light.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 11:24, Warriorsaint said:

with the Taliban who were born and raised in Afghanistan, taking (temporary) control of their own country.

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Couldn’t give a monkeys about the  Taliban. Their destruction would only be a bonus.

The issue is Al Quaida and Isis.

They have gone away and are not going to be a threat in future are they?

Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 11:27, Warriorsaint said:

Couldn’t give a monkeys about the  Taliban. Their destruction would only be a bonus.

The issue is Al Quaida and Isis.

They have gone away and are not going to be a threat in future are they?

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More random thinking!

Isis / Isil have been around since before the occupation of Afghanistan and have literally only existed during that time (plus a couple of years).  Was there ever a stated intention to rid the world of their existence?

Have they gone away? Whilst it's clear you would love all those who don't agree with your ideals, philosophies and religion to disappear off the face of the Earth, no, they haven't 'gone away'.

Is the threat still there, absolutely.  Will the threat be there in the future, yep.  Whilst different religions exist and religious people consider their religion to be better than someone else's then there will always be a threat from extremists.

Quite how you plan to rid the planet of radical extremists will be very entertaining to hear.

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 11:35, Weston Super Saint said:

More random thinking!

Isis / Isil have been around since before the occupation of Afghanistan and have literally only existed during that time (plus a couple of years).  Was there ever a stated intention to rid the world of their existence?

Have they gone away? Whilst it's clear you would love all those who don't agree with your ideals, philosophies and religion to disappear off the face of the Earth, no, they haven't 'gone away'.

Is the threat still there, absolutely.  Will the threat be there in the future, yep.  Whilst different religions exist and religious people consider their religion to be better than someone else's then there will always be a threat from extremists.

Quite how you plan to rid the planet of radical extremists will be very entertaining to hear.

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Is the likelihood of terrorist attacks more likely or less likely now?

 I don’t mind people having different views at all and having the ability to question my own opinions and occasionally changing them. You, seem to have a closed mind. However, I wouldn’t stoop so low as to question your mental health.

You seem only to enjoy being a contrarian whose only joy is to be a troll.

Weston Super Saint

Weston Super Saint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 11:42, Warriorsaint said:

Is the likelihood of terrorist attacks more likely or less likely now?

 I don’t mind people having different views at all and having the ability to question my own opinions and occasionally changing them. You, seem to have a closed mind. However, I wouldn’t stoop so low as to question your mental health.

You seem only to enjoy being a contrarian whose only joy is to be a troll.

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I would say that right here, right now, the chance of a terrorist attack is less likely, although you only seem to conflate terrorist attacks with attacks on the UK.

This handy timeline might show you that terrorism is a global problem :

https://since911.com/explore/terrorism-timeline

You might also notice (maybe, maybe not), that the majority of terrorist attacks in the last 40 years have happend DURING THE 20 YEARS THAT THE WEST OCCUPIED AFGHANISTAN, which kind of smacks in the face of your claim that the world is a safer place whilst foreign troops are stationed there and that's why we should send all the soldiers back!

As for your tolerance of different views, your posts on here today suggest you cannot tolerate another country having a different culture, religion or set of values to those that you hold!

badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:31, Warriorsaint said:

Are you drunk?

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Are you for real ?

 

And as for your assertion that the Taliban will harbour ISIS, they won't. They have spent the last few years shooting the crap out of each other.

 

Edited by badgerx16
Noodles34

Noodles34

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 08:46, Weston Super Saint said:

Which is exactly what is being planned in Afghanistan at the moment.  The Taliban have allegedly taken 'temporary' control whilst the country is re-organised back to the tribal areas with their own 'capital' cities.

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You don’t really believe that do you? 

egg

egg

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 10:40, hypochondriac said:

I'm not sure that's true. Loads of terrorism is from religious ideogy and would occur regardless of any oppression or occupation. 

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Sure, over simplified from me, but oppression and occupation leads to terrorism, radicalism, martyrdom, and all that goes with it. 

Warriorsaint

Warriorsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 12:05, Weston Super Saint said:

I would say that right here, right now, the chance of a terrorist attack is less likely, although you only seem to conflate terrorist attacks with attacks on the UK.

This handy timeline might show you that terrorism is a global problem :

https://since911.com/explore/terrorism-timeline

You might also notice (maybe, maybe not), that the majority of terrorist attacks in the last 40 years have happend DURING THE 20 YEARS THAT THE WEST OCCUPIED AFGHANISTAN, which kind of smacks in the face of your claim that the world is a safer place whilst foreign troops are stationed there and that's why we should send all the soldiers back!

As for your tolerance of different views, your posts on here today suggest you cannot tolerate another country having a different culture, religion or set of values to those that you hold!

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You’ve convinced me. You are right.

Noodles34

Noodles34

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 14:22, Weston Super Saint said:

Yes.

Afghanistan will revert back to tribal areas with tribal leaders over the next 12 months is my prediction.

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Right. That’s what happened last time the taliban took over the country? I’d agree that I think this time they will try and integrate into the international community more and I don’t necessarily buy into them harbouring terrorism again, though there will be factors there for sure. I think they’ve learnt a lesson from before and clearly their agenda won’t be to ostracise the country again to the extent that the US start carpet bombing them. But they will want and have control and unfortunately they will still implement their laws and their prejudices. 

Dyslexic Saint

Dyslexic Saint

Posted
Posted

Round and round we go. We interfered and it back fired. As posters have stated it is too complicated for the west to understand.  But we gave them a chance and they legged it, maybe we should learn the lesson.

Jonnyboy

Jonnyboy

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 07:52, badgerx16 said:

The US troops in Germany are not viewed, at least by a significant portion of the population, as an occupation force imposing an alien set of social and political views. Ditto South Korea, ditto the Phillipines. No US soldier in those countries has ever been shot at or blown up by an IED.

Stupid comparison.

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To be fair, I read the US soldier casualties in Afghanistan have been miniscule the last couple of years. More fatalities from training exercises. 

badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
  On 17/08/2021 at 22:49, Jonnyboy said:

To be fair, I read the US soldier casualties in Afghanistan have been miniscule the last couple of years. More fatalities from training exercises. 

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Because there has been a de facto ceasefire between the Taliban and the US since Trump signed the withrawal agreement in February 2020, ( and the Taliban had pretty much held fire for a few months before that whilst the talks were taking place )..

  • Like 1
badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted (edited)

This page on the Republican Party website

image.thumb.png.6dabb489b3002f87232135eb0df6806a.png

which includes this text

"

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CONTINUED TO TAKE THE LEAD IN PEACE TALKS AS HE SIGNED A HISTORIC PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WOULD END AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR

 

Has been replaced with this page

image.thumb.png.e06a1fc028197f77bc58a000d37f50c1.png

 

 

 

Edited by badgerx16
  • Like 1
whelk

whelk

Posted
  • Author
Posted
  On 18/08/2021 at 06:27, AlexLaw76 said:

Whilst we cry for equal rights in Afghanistan.  English players start the 18 month cycle to get 'world cup ready' for Qatar 2022.

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I am getting bored with this ‘what about Qatar?’ already. That Marcus Rashford might be doing great work helping hungry kids but the cunt is going t8 Qatar so what a hypocrite.

  • Haha 1
buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
  On 18/08/2021 at 09:55, hypochondriac said:

It's relevant though because Qatar has helped fund the Taliban. 

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I dont claim by any means to fully understand the politics but it was far more complicated and nuanced than 'funding the Taliban'. Qatari and Saudi support was for one specific faction within the Taliban which was fighting against other factions.  It's all mixed in with antipathy to Iran, different interpretations of Islam and internal policies. Turkey was also funding them. Odd they aren't vilified in the same way.   

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