whelk Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 Are all the pacifists who never want any interference in other countries sparing a thought the poor Afghanis left to be terrified by brutal religious rule? Personally I think disgraceful pulling out so abruptly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 It's despairing for the people of Afghanistan. It's also an incredible waste of life and money (stats below) - all that loss and for what? Imagine the problems that could have been solved with all that cash. 2,312 - The number of US personnel killed 20,660 - The number of US personnel injured $776bn - The official estimated cost of US operations since 2001 456 - The number of British deaths in Afghanistan since 2001 64,100 - The estimated number of Afghan military and police killed, 2001-19 (Source: Brown University) 111,000 - Number of civilians killed or injured (Source: UN) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 2 hours ago, whelk said: Are all the pacifists who never want any interference in other countries sparing a thought the poor Afghanis left to be terrified by brutal religious rule? Personally I think disgraceful pulling out so abruptly. There was no 'pulling out abruptly'. In 2010, NATO signed a declaration agreeing to hand over full responsitbility for security in Afghanistan to Afghan forces by the end of 2014. It still took another six and a half years to achieve that goal, not sure how that can be considered 'abrupt'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 13 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said: There was no 'pulling out abruptly'. In 2010, NATO signed a declaration agreeing to hand over full responsitbility for security in Afghanistan to Afghan forces by the end of 2014. It still took another six and a half years to achieve that goal, not sure how that can be considered 'abrupt'. Yeah all gone to plan has it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Albert Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 How can you defeat an enemy who sees paradise down the barrel of a gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 Barak Obama told the international community that the war in Afghanistan "had been won" 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Barak Obama told the international community that the war in Afghanistan "had been won" 🤔 What's going on in Plymouth Jamie?! 👀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said: Barak Obama told the international community that the war in Afghanistan "had been won" 🤔 It’s reasonable to say the war was won, sadly as so often the peace was lost aka WW1 / WW2, Iraq, and many more. Trump pulled out for political gain not for a safer world, the US led coalition started it but sadly as in so many cases they were unable to complete it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, moonraker said: It’s reasonable to say the war was won, sadly as so often the peace was lost aka WW1 / WW2, Iraq, and many more. Trump pulled out for political gain not for a safer world, the US led coalition started it but sadly as in so many cases they were unable to complete it. The war was won, in respect that the US/UK needed to remain for another generation. Very strange victory, don't you think? Edited 13 August, 2021 by AlexLaw76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 40 minutes ago, whelk said: Yeah all gone to plan has it? Nope. Although what that's got to do with your claim that it was abrupt, I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 13 August, 2021 14 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Nope. Although what that's got to do with your claim that it was abrupt, I have no idea. Abruptly in that the poor fuckers haven’t a chance. against the Taliban, They were obviously not wanting to be there for ever but have just chosen for political reasons to leave. No need to Google UN resolutions for me, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 The taliban are running riot. It would also appear that the uk government are also making it difficult for the poor translators that helped British forces to gain entry to to uk after assuring them they would. Bang out of order, theirs and their families blood will be everywhere and they’ll be singled out for special treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 32 minutes ago, Raging Bull said: The taliban are running riot. It would also appear that the uk government are also making it difficult for the poor translators that helped British forces to gain entry to to uk after assuring them they would. Bang out of order, theirs and their families blood will be everywhere and they’ll be singled out for special treatment. Echos of Vietnam when the US fled... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 35 minutes ago, whelk said: Abruptly in that the poor fuckers haven’t a chance. against the Taliban, They were obviously not wanting to be there for ever but have just chosen for political reasons to leave. No need to Google UN resolutions for me, Not sure you really understand what the word 'abruptly' means! The withdrawal has been over 10 years in the making with billions of dollars / pounds spent training the local security forces to give them the skills needed to fend for themelves. At some point we were always going to be leaving Afghanistan to look after itself. Maybe there is a wider question around whether or not we should have been meddling in how Afghanistan is run in the first place? Who knows, maybe the history books (probably in the next year or so!), will declare the 'occupation' of Afghanistan by predominantly white / Western countries as a Racist suppression and reparations will be demanded to compensate for the Western forces being there in the first place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 It is weird how the Yanks seem happy to let the country go back to how it was after so much has been invested in it, but I guess in the current situation it's politically toxic to be throwing money and lives away on such a cause. The very least they should have done is left it in a situation where it can adequately defend itself but it appears this is not the case. Occupying the country is never going to be a long-term solution so I guess this is something that was always going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 Historically Afghanistan has been a country run by tribal warlords, and only superficially governed centrally. It has also been the graveyard of just about every armed intervention. ( There was a British army that marched in, and 1 man got back). The Taliban is not a single entity. It is a loose alliance of militias bound by a conservative interpretation of Islam. Once they have control they will start squabbling amongst themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 38 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Historically Afghanistan has been a country run by tribal warlords, and only superficially governed centrally. It has also been the graveyard of just about every armed intervention. ( There was a British army that marched in, and 1 man got back). The Taliban is not a single entity. It is a loose alliance of militias bound by a conservative interpretation of Islam. Once they have control they will start squabbling amongst themselves. Not to mention the Russians! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 Around $1 trillion has been spent on war (US + allies costs) 20 years wasted and thousands of people are dead. The entire GDP of Afghanistan is $20 billion. We could have pumped in $20 billion pa on education and infrastructure for 20 years, saved $600bn and countless lives and probably had a more stable country. . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, buctootim said: Around $1 trillion has been spent on war (US + allies costs) 20 years wasted and thousands of people are dead. The entire GDP of Afghanistan is $20 billion. We could have pumped in $20 billion pa on education and infrastructure for 20 years, saved $600bn and countless lives and probably had a more stable country. . Possibly, but the first step in any US answer to an international problem is to unleash their B-52s and blanket bomb the other side. Remember, the current situation started because the Taliban, or at least one of the factions, were sheltering Bin Laden. ( And of course, who armed the Talibannies and OBL in the first place ? The Yanks because they were fighting the Commies Russians ). Edited 13 August, 2021 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 13 August, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 August, 2021 Share Posted 13 August, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, whelk said: The problem from day one of the international intervention was always going to be how to disengage. Afghanistn is not a "Failed State", it is not possible for it become a Viable State because of the tribalism and factionalism across the country, and conesequently no single person or group can unite to govern and control. In the last few days the current leader of the country has flown to a northern district capital to try to persuade two local warlords to join the national army in opposing the Taliban - two leaders who he had previously deliberately sidelined and ignored, preferring to impose his favourites from elsewhere onto the regional Government, Police, and military leadership. Many of the people in rural and remote areas are extremely 'conservative' in their beliefs and resent / resist Western influences, which they see as being imnposed by an out of touch cabal in Kabul. Edited 13 August, 2021 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 I've just seen a press conference of Biden from a month ago. Bloody hell the sheer incompetence is breathtaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 19 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: I've just seen a press conference of Biden from a month ago. Bloody hell the sheer incompetence is breathtaking. 28000 US troops remain in South Korea, in a couple of days there will be 0 in Afghanistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 9 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: 28000 US troops remain in South Korea, in a couple of days there will be 0 in Afghanistan. There are 35,000 US troops in Germany and over 9,000 US troops in the UK. The argument seems to be that US / UK / NATO troops should remain in Afghanistan because we don't like the current regime running the country / about to take control. Why is no-one arguing for US troops to invade North Korea or China using the same criteria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 12 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: There are 35,000 US troops in Germany and over 9,000 US troops in the UK. The argument seems to be that US / UK / NATO troops should remain in Afghanistan because we don't like the current regime running the country / about to take control. Why is no-one arguing for US troops to invade North Korea or China using the same criteria? Yeah but we essentially got involved because we didn't like the regime. Ditto Iraq. Ditto Syria. Sadly we'll never stop meddling in other countries internal affairs. North Korea will be left alone as the possibly have a nuke, hence the economic sanctions. China are too big to be touched by anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 25 minutes ago, egg said: Yeah but we essentially got involved because we didn't like the regime. Ditto Iraq. Ditto Syria. Sadly we'll never stop meddling in other countries internal affairs. North Korea will be left alone as the possibly have a nuke, hence the economic sanctions. China are too big to be touched by anyone. We got involved with Afghanistan because the Taliban were supporters of Al-Qaeda providing them a base for operations following 911, we leant our support to the US as part of NATO. Iraq was about oil, despite Blair's claims. Syria, frankly, was none of our business. If we're not prepared to push North Korea around (because they may have nukes) or China or Russia because they are too big to be touched, we also have no business pushing smaller countries around because we don't like the way they are being run. It's not the place of the US or UK to dictate how independent countries should be run! We don't interfere with Qatar, in fact we actively support them, despite their human rights atrocities! (Although I think we both broadly agree on the principle of letting countries Govern themselves!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 10 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: We got involved with Afghanistan because the Taliban were supporters of Al-Qaeda providing them a base for operations following 911, we leant our support to the US as part of NATO. Iraq was about oil, despite Blair's claims. Syria, frankly, was none of our business. If we're not prepared to push North Korea around (because they may have nukes) or China or Russia because they are too big to be touched, we also have no business pushing smaller countries around because we don't like the way they are being run. It's not the place of the US or UK to dictate how independent countries should be run! We don't interfere with Qatar, in fact we actively support them, despite their human rights atrocities! (Although I think we both broadly agree on the principle of letting countries Govern themselves!). I agree with your sentiments, we're not here to police the world, smash countries up, walk away. Afghanistan was about regime change though (the Taliban) but 911 was the catalyst. Our middle east meddling is a mess and all designed to have multiple opponent's to Iran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 Well done Biden. Taliban now control the country. Fucking disgraceful abandonment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 10 minutes ago, whelk said: Well done Biden. Taliban now control the country. Fucking disgraceful abandonment. Trump signed the withdrawal agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 That will do it. just you behave you Taliban lads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Trump signed the withdrawal agreement. Biden was spouting bollocks about how the Afghan army was strong enough to resist. Trump was a clown, Biden knows better. Edited 15 August, 2021 by whelk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picard Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Trump signed the withdrawal agreement. Biden has done nothing but reverse Trump policies since he got in office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, whelk said: Biden was spouting bollocks about how the Afghan army was strong enough to resist. Trump was a clown, Biden knows better. 16 minutes ago, Picard said: Biden has done nothing but reverse Trump policies since he got in office! When Biden became President there were less than 5000 US troops in Afghanistan. What was he supposed to do - send more back in in violation of Trump's agreement ? That would have given the Taliban a green light to break their ceasfire. Edited 15 August, 2021 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Wen Biden became President there were less than 5000 US troops in Afghanistan. What was he supposed to do - send more back in in violation of Trump's agreement ? That would have given the Taliban a green light to break their ceasfire. Be some great comfort to the people like the lady below to tell the there was fuck all could do. This makes me sick. We caused it and have just left the poor people to a wretched situation. TBH you and Weston can call up all the apologies and wash your hands and mention parallels but morality of this is a disgrace. Edited 15 August, 2021 by whelk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, whelk said: Be some great comfort to the people like the lady below to tell the there was fuck all could do. This makes me sick. We caused it and have just left the poor people to a wretched situation. TBH you and Weston can call up all the apologies and wash your hands and mention parallels. Where have I shown myself to be an apologist ? Everything I have posted on this thread has been fact rather than opinion. Afghanistan is a non-state due to tribal factionalism. Are you suggesting that we and the US should have continued to send our military to an unwinnable war in perpetuity ? Edited 15 August, 2021 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Where have I shown myself to be an apologist ? Everything I have posted on this thread has been fact rather than opinion. Afghanistan is a non-state due to tribal factionalism. Are you suggesting that we and the US should have continued to send our military to an unwinnable war in perpetuity ? He is, because he's a thick cunt that doesn't understand how the region works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said: He is, because he's a thick cunt that doesn't understand how the region works. Carry on your research sunshine makes you look v bright. Maybe I should stop reading New Yorker and plenty of other respectable analysis and listen to your whataboutery and realise it was inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 13 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Where have I shown myself to be an apologist ? Everything I have posted on this thread has been fact rather than opinion. Afghanistan is a non-state due to tribal factionalism. Are you suggesting that we and the US should have continued to send our military to an unwinnable war in perpetuity ? It is not about winning it is about not leaving people abandoned when we have encouraged and now leave them defenceless. It’s the morality but if you don’t see it you don’t see it. Glory be to the commendable Biden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 It’s a clusterf**k, but it was inevitable that the puppet democracy would collapse as soon as the US left, whether quickly or slowly. I can’t blame them for beating a hasty retreat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 I just hope we and the US offer asylum to the translators, liaisons and their families and don’t screw them over by leaving them for the Taliban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 23 minutes ago, whelk said: It is not about winning it is about not leaving people abandoned when we have encouraged and now leave them defenceless. It’s the morality but if you don’t see it you don’t see it. Glory be to the commendable Biden. Come on then. Why slate Biden for pulling out 5000 troops when his predecessor pulled out twice as many and signed the agreement with the Taliban. As I asked previously, given the withdrawal agreement had been signed and with public opinion supporting it, what was Biden supposed to do ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 1 minute ago, badgerx16 said: Come on then. Why slate Biden for pulling out 5000 troops when his predecessor pulled out twice as many and signed the agreement with the Taliban. As I asked previously, given the withdrawal agreement had been signed and with public opinion supporting it, what was Biden supposed to do ? Be better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: Be better? How ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: How ? Not for me to say. Showing so far, he is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: Not for me to say. Showing so far, he is not. He is President of the USA. Domestic public opinion is everything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 It is a cluster-fuck but I guess whenever we left it would be a mess, Biden is in a no-win situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 3 minutes ago, aintforever said: It is a cluster-fuck but I guess whenever we left it would be a mess, Biden is in a no-win situation. Correct. Reports that local police, armed forces and politicians welcoming the Taliban with open arms. Sounds like the country has spoken about who it wants to control it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 15 August, 2021 Share Posted 15 August, 2021 5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Correct. Reports that local police, armed forces and politicians welcoming the Taliban with open arms. Sounds like the country has spoken about who it wants to control it.... Including the Taliban sleepers who have infiltrated them. A lot of people are welcoming them back because they see them as being straight dealing, as opposed to the heavily corrupt regime we were propping up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 6 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Correct. Reports that local police, armed forces and politicians welcoming the Taliban with open arms. Sounds like the country has spoken about who it wants to control it.... I am sure you will relate to the collaborator spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 15 August, 2021 Author Share Posted 15 August, 2021 Just now, badgerx16 said: Including the Taliban sleepers who have infiltrated them. A lot of people are welcoming them back because they see them as being straight dealing, as opposed to the heavily corrupt regime we were propping up. Ohh so now the Taliban are the good guys. All very planned. Goodo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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