Mr X Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Tbh I would rather they did some actual worthwhile work alongside young minority groups it might just be enough eventually for the first premier League player to come out which would make a huge difference in changing people's perceptions a young person might think they can actually be welcomed in a traditionally "man's" sport. let the players get to know about them on a personal level and their experiences in life rather than fake shirt wearing business statements about how much they care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWar Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 6 minutes ago, Turkish said: who dont? The people who "have a problem" with this pretty positive and universally harmless gesture. See the comment I was replying to for context... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWar Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mr X said: Tbh I would rather they did some actual worthwhile work alongside young minority groups it might just be enough eventually for the first premier League player to come out which would make a huge difference in changing people's perceptions a young person might think they can actually be welcomed in a traditionally "man's" sport. let the players get to know about them on a personal level and their experiences in life rather than fake shirt wearing business statements about how much they care I'd like those things too, but it's really not a "one or the other" situation. I think this will help a little bit, and the thing you suggest would help a lot, but I don't think there is a finite budget of things the club can do and this doesn't seem to have any negatives, aside from a very ugly shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr X Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, TWar said: I'd like those things too, but it's really not a "one or the other" situation. I think this will help a little bit, and the thing you suggest would help a lot, but I don't think there is a finite budget of things the club can do and this doesn't seem to have any negatives, aside from a very ugly shirt. Yes definitely I'm not saying the shirt isn't a positive move but it's probably the easiest option for the club, I quite like the shirt as a one off in a so garish it's good way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWar Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Mr X said: Yes definitely I'm not saying the shirt isn't a positive move but it's probably the easiest option for the club, I quite like the shirt as a one off in a so garish it's good way Yeah that's the thing with corporate sponsored pride stuff, they will do whatever makes money and generates good will as that is their priority but with the minimum possible effort. If we show support for the things they do that are positive they are more likely to do more and bigger positive things in the future. If we cry about virtue signalling then they will see this sort of thing as negative and won't do it anymore. That's kind of the point of the "virtue signalling" argument, it's basically saying "I can't think of a problem with what you are doing so instead I'm just going to say you are doing it for the wrong reasons as if that matters". And since it seems we have a bunch of people in our fanbase doing this I think it's good to positively support the club doing things like this as much as possible to encourage meaningful change. Edited 10 August, 2021 by TWar 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killers Knee Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 what minority groups are represented by each colour, maybe Turkish just isn't represented by this shirt, maybe it's not inclusive enough? Maybe it offends him and to cause an offence is an offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itchen Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 My only objection is that it doesn't seem to be available to buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Bit bland and dull for me, probably wont bother bidding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nordic Saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 hour ago, Mystic Force said: The one group of people it does not include are those who do not like such a visual assault of colour on their eye balls. I do not have a problem with the message but the clashing colour do bother me. There are several white stripes on there presumably to ensure it covers the white hetero cis men. It really is very inclusive. It's even got the German national flag to represent the neo-fascists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golac's Cunning Stunts Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 hour ago, TWar said: They don't like LGBT people to feel welcome, due to bigotry, and have a bunch of stupid buzzwords and whataboutism to justify it. You seem like quite a nice fella but who appointed you the forum's advisor on morals? Also, as you appear to be all for equality, inclusivity etc, why do you make broad statements like "they"? People like you love to make broad statements like these, taking the high ground and simultaneously casting insults at "them". If you can't be more precise about things, I really don't have any inclination to want to hear your views. All you do is put a stop to any debate that might be had. It just polarises and puts peoples backs up. If I want that kind of behaviour I can get it any day on any social media outlet. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 hours ago, Turkish said: How selfish. Just think of all those LGBT+ people across the country who would love to go to a match but cant because they are too scared. There must be literally 3 or 4 of them. Actually I know plenty of LGBT people who don't enjoy going to the football, and certainly don't feel comfortable to just be themselves. My sister who is trans for one. I also know two men in a relationship who are unfortunately United fans. They absolutely do not feel comfortable walking into stadiums as a couple, and absolutely not like a man and his wife would walk in. And come on, do you really think that it is surprising that they feel like that? The fact there is instant opposition to this shows why they feel like this. Does this shirt change anything? Absolutely not. But what it does do is show that there are issues for LGBT fans attending the football, so it does serve that purpose. I absolutely don't understand some people's constant opposition for wanting more people to feel included, especially when it does them not one iota of harm 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, sydney_saint said: Actually I know plenty of LGBT people who don't enjoy going to the football, and certainly don't feel comfortable to just be themselves. My sister who is trans for one. I also know two men in a relationship who are unfortunately United fans. They absolutely do not feel comfortable walking into stadiums as a couple, and absolutely not like a man and his wife would walk in. And come on, do you really think that it is surprising that they feel like that? The fact there is instant opposition to this shows why they feel like this. Does this shirt change anything? Absolutely not. But what it does do is show that there are issues for LGBT fans attending the football, so it does serve that purpose. I absolutely don't understand some people's constant opposition for wanting more people to feel included, especially when it does them not one iota of harm Why dont they feel comfortable? Edited 10 August, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 hours ago, bangkoksaint said: How I’d love to just go to a game to watch football……… Can you not? Bloody hell that shirt truly is powerful if actually stops you going to a game. Must be one of those new interactive ones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, Turkish said: Why don't they feel comfortable? Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us Turkish?! Come over to the top of Block 39 this season and have a listen to some of the shit the lads that stand up there come out with at any given moment. Maybe come along when we play Brighton. See if you are able to put two and two together. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Just now, Saint_Jonny said: Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us Turkish?! Come over to the top of Block 39 this season and have a listen to some of the shit the lads that stand up there come out with at any given moment. Maybe come along when we play Brighton. See if you are able to put two and two together. Are you LGBT+ or are you speaking on their behalf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said: Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us Turkish?! Come over to the top of Block 39 this season and have a listen to some of the shit the lads that stand up there come out with at any given moment. Maybe come along when we play Brighton. See if you are able to put two and two together. I hope you've been confronting them? That sounds terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Just now, Saint_Jonny said: Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us Turkish?! Come over to the top of Block 39 this season and have a listen to some of the shit the lads that stand up there come out with at any given moment. Maybe come along when we play Brighton. See if you are able to put two and two together. If you're saying there is homophobic abuse being shouted I'm shocked that they're still so blatant about it and/or allowed in after you've challenged them on it, made it clear that it's not OK and pointed them out to the nearest steward. I assume you've done that anyway, otherwise complaining about it on here is just as empty and meaningless as a football club wearing a rainbow shirt in a warm up session without actually making any proper effort to change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, hypochondriac said: I hope you've been confronting them? That sounds terrible. Just now, Saint_clark said: If you're saying there is homophobic abuse being shouted I'm shocked that they're still so blatant about it and/or allowed in after you've challenged them on it, made it clear that it's not OK and pointed them out to the nearest steward. I assume you've done that anyway, otherwise complaining about it on here is just as empty and meaningless as a football club wearing a rainbow shirt in a warm up session without actually making any proper effort to change anything. Ah i'm sure you two hard-men would gladly go up to large groups of thick-headed mongs and start waving your finger, right? That would definitely end well for you / me. No problem with that at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 10 minutes ago, Turkish said: Why dont they feel comfortable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Saint_clark said: If you're saying there is homophobic abuse being shouted I'm shocked that they're still so blatant about it and/or allowed in after you've challenged them on it, made it clear that it's not OK and pointed them out to the nearest steward. I assume you've done that anyway, otherwise complaining about it on here is just as empty and meaningless as a football club wearing a rainbow shirt in a warm up session without actually making any proper effort to change anything. Indeed. I remember a few years ago a couple of people being arrested for "homophobic chanting" in the Kingsland/Northam corner at the Brighton matches he/her/they reference for singing "we can see you holding hands" Hardly the stuff to make people terrified to set foot inside a football stadium. Surely homophobic abuse will have been reported and dealt with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 12 minutes ago, sydney_saint said: Actually I know plenty of LGBT people who don't enjoy going to the football, and certainly don't feel comfortable to just be themselves. My sister who is trans for one. I also know two men in a relationship who are unfortunately United fans. They absolutely do not feel comfortable walking into stadiums as a couple, and absolutely not like a man and his wife would walk in. And come on, do you really think that it is surprising that they feel like that? The fact there is instant opposition to this shows why they feel like this. Does this shirt change anything? Absolutely not. But what it does do is show that there are issues for LGBT fans attending the football, so it does serve that purpose. I absolutely don't understand some people's constant opposition for wanting more people to feel included, especially when it does them not one iota of harm Why should anybody assume two blokes walking into a football stadium are a couple? Do they have labels on them or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Saint_Jonny said: Ah i'm sure you two hard-men would gladly go up to large groups of thick-headed mongs and start waving your finger, right? That would definitely end well for you / me. No problem with that at all. Hold on I'm not the one bringing it up in a disagreement on a football forum. Did you bring it to the attention of a steward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said: Ah i'm sure you two hard-men would gladly go up to large groups of thick-headed mongs and start waving your finger, right? That would definitely end well for you / me. No problem with that at all. There is a hotline you can call as well you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said: Ah i'm sure you two hard-men would gladly go up to large groups of thick-headed mongs and start waving your finger, right? That would definitely end well for you / me. No problem with that at all. Well if you aren't prepared to do anything about it then stop preaching to everyone else. Pretty sure there are signs everywhere that say "let your thumb do the pointing" or something where you can text to a number completely anonymously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_dane Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Football, in particular the premier league, is one of the major cultural influences globally. Clearly discrimination based on sexuality and gender is an ongoing issue, one need only stand in a bar for 10 minutes and listen to discussion and ‘banter’ amounts predominantly male groups - simple acts which communicate a progressive message should be celebrated. If you don’t share the view that they are necessary, fine. Neither kneeling down nor wearing a rainbow shirt in a warm up will impact on any part of your life. If you have an issue with this, it is an ideological one and thus evidence that these gestures continue to serve a valuable purpose. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 3 minutes ago, Saint_clark said: Well if you aren't prepared to do anything about it then stop preaching to everyone else. Pretty sure there are signs everywhere that say "let your thumb do the pointing" or something where you can text to a number completely anonymously. Why are you more upset about that, than the people doing the abusing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, sydney_saint said: so 10% of LGBT have experienced some sort of discrimination, what that is we dont know, it might even just be that they think some on looked at them funny, 90% haven't. 10% is too high but the overwhelming majority it seems experience no problems. The rest of it seems to come down to more of a state of mind, "felt" "believe" "think". I think therefore i am, mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said: Hold on I'm not the one bringing it up in a disagreement on a football forum. Did you bring it to the attention of a steward? I have done in the past, yes. Doesn't seem to do any good as banks of blokes are still able to shout any old shit in rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golac's Cunning Stunts Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 4 minutes ago, Saint_clark said: If you're saying there is homophobic abuse being shouted I'm shocked that they're still so blatant about it and/or allowed in after you've challenged them on it, made it clear that it's not OK and pointed them out to the nearest steward. I assume you've done that anyway, otherwise complaining about it on here is just as empty and meaningless as a football club wearing a rainbow shirt in a warm up session without actually making any proper effort to change anything. Exactly why the term "virtue signalling" exists - it is all mouth and no trousers. Action is required. 2 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said: Ah i'm sure you two hard-men would gladly go up to large groups of thick-headed mongs and start waving your finger, right? That would definitely end well for you / me. No problem with that at all. No, I certainly wouldn't confront a large group of "mongs" as you put it. (Which immediately shows how superior you feel to these people). I very definitely would report it and expect it dealt with though. I generally find people's behaviour can be offensive, but the people themselves are able to change that behaviour. They definitely won't change it if you keep calling them mongs though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Just now, Saint_Jonny said: I have done in the past, yes. Doesn't seem to do any good as banks of blokes are still able to shout any old shit in rage. People got arrested for singing we can see you holdling hands. Im sure if people were shouting things that were actually sinister then it would also be dealt with and it wouldn't be just you who heard it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: so 10% of LGBT have experienced some sort of discrimination, what that is we dont know, it might even just be that they think some on looked at them funny, 90% haven't. 10% is too high but the overwhelming majority it seems experience no problems. The rest of it seems to come down to more of a state of mind, "felt" "believe" "think". I think therefore i am, mentality. 7/10 have heard or witnessed homophobia. If you hear or witness, are you likely to hand around to it actually happens to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, sydney_saint said: 7/10 have heard or witnessed homophobia. If you hear or witness, are you likely to hand around to it actually happens to you? It hasn't though has it, 90% of LGBT dont experience any discrimination whatsoever. Like the 12% that wont go to the gym or join a sports club but 88% will, suggests it's more a state of mind than a homophobia issue Edited 10 August, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: It hasn't though has it, 90% of LGBT dont experience any discrimination whatsoever. Yes, because many of them don't return back to the stadiums. That's the point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Turkish said: It hasn't though has it, 90% of LGBT dont experience any discrimination whatsoever. If 1 in 10 old white men named Turkish on Saints Web were discriminated against when they went to the football, would you class that as more or less statistically significant? Edited 10 August, 2021 by Saint_Jonny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OttawaSaint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 *grandpa Simpson enters and exits burlesque club gif* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Saint_Jonny said: If 1 in 10 old white men named Turkish on Saints Web were discriminated against when they went to the football, would class that as more or less statistically significant? That would be 10% so exactly the same statistical significance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said: If 1 in 10 old white men named Turkish on Saints Web were discriminated against when they went to the football, would class that as more or less statistically significant? exactly the same, ridiculous point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 14 minutes ago, Turkish said: Indeed. I remember a few years ago a couple of people being arrested for "homophobic chanting" in the Kingsland/Northam corner at the Brighton matches he/her/they reference for singing "we can see you holding hands" At a Blackpool v Brighton league game at Bloomfield Road the two sets of fans were chanting this at each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, sydney_saint said: Yes, because many of them don't return back to the stadiums. That's the point so because they heard someone say something they dont like they stopped going? No one would ever leave the house or watch telly if we all lived like that. We keep hearing about pride in diversity, it seems like it's anything but. Edited 10 August, 2021 by Turkish 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, OttawaSaint said: *grandpa Simpson enters and exits burlesque club gif* Why so lazy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ant Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: so 10% of LGBT have experienced some sort of discrimination, what that is we dont know, it might even just be that they think some on looked at them funny, 90% haven't. 10% is too high but the overwhelming majority it seems experience no problems. The rest of it seems to come down to more of a state of mind, "felt" "believe" "think". I think therefore i am, mentality. So taking this as a given, what's the problem with football trying to advertise that it's not as big and bad as minority groups currently perceive it to be? Because that's what this ultimately is - a promotion of inclusivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
23rdSaint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 33 minutes ago, Golac's Cunning Stunts said: You seem like quite a nice fella but who appointed you the forum's advisor on morals? Also, as you appear to be all for equality, inclusivity etc, why do you make broad statements like "they"? People like you love to make broad statements like these, taking the high ground and simultaneously casting insults at "them". If you can't be more precise about things, I really don't have any inclination to want to hear your views. All you do is put a stop to any debate that might be had. It just polarises and puts peoples backs up. If I want that kind of behaviour I can get it any day on any social media outlet. Do you also apply this viewpoint to professional contrarians, Turkish and Hypochondriac? I didn't see your message to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: so because they heard someone say something they dont like they stopped going? No one would ever leave the house or watch telly if we all lived like that I'd also be interested to know what the homophobic abuse consisted of. Obviously there's a scale from disgusting abuse that should be immediately reported and dealt with to much milder comments to the degree that it's arguable whether it is abuse at all like we can see you holding hands for example. The headline figures seem very high but I'd like to see more of the details first because the definition of abuse is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 Just now, Turkish said: so because they heard someone say something they dont like they stopped going? No one would ever leave the house or watch telly if we all lived like that No because they felt unsafe. Let's say you are a gay man going to the football. And let's say you hear another gay man getting abused or harassed based on his sexuality. Maybe that is the last time you go the stadium. Maybe you go again, nothing happens. But a few weeks down the line, it happens again. You think 'Why would I want to keep going, cos what if that happens to me?' Why should someone be made to feel uncomfortable or even unsafe? And why is it so hard to empathise with that sort of situation? You say no one would ever leave the house, but in all seriousness when was the last time you were made to feel like that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Jonny Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, ant said: So taking this as a given, what's the problem with football trying to advertise that it's not as big and bad as minority groups currently perceive it to be? Because that's what this ultimately is - a promotion of inclusivity. Turkish and his mates are against inclusivity - signposting their anti-inclusive agenda in any thread that references any positive move towards more inclusivity, in thinly veiled, transparent "look at me" posts. We can all see straight through it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 2 minutes ago, sydney_saint said: No because they felt unsafe. Let's say you are a gay man going to the football. And let's say you hear another gay man getting abused or harassed based on his sexuality. Maybe that is the last time you go the stadium. Maybe you go again, nothing happens. But a few weeks down the line, it happens again. You think 'Why would I want to keep going, cos what if that happens to me?' Why should someone be made to feel uncomfortable or even unsafe? And why is it so hard to empathise with that sort of situation? You say no one would ever leave the house, but in all seriousness when was the last time you were made to feel like that? How would they know they were gay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sydney_saint Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 minute ago, Turkish said: How would they know they were gay? It's not particularly difficult to work out with some men. If I think of my friends, particularly the couple I know who are United fans, the gaydar almost explodes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 1 hour ago, Killers Knee said: what minority groups are represented by each colour, maybe Turkish just isn't represented by this shirt, maybe it's not inclusive enough? Maybe it offends him and to cause an offence is an offence. Turkish is represented by black, cyan, magenta and yellow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 3 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said: Turkish and his mates are against inclusivity - signposting their anti-inclusive agenda in any thread that references any positive move towards more inclusivity, in thinly veiled, transparent "look at me" posts. We can all see straight through it. these "postive moves towards more inclusivity" include a anti racism gesture which has increased racial tension and wearing a t-shirt in an empty stadium. They're fucking nailing it mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 August, 2021 Share Posted 10 August, 2021 4 minutes ago, sydney_saint said: It's not particularly difficult to work out with some men. If I think of my friends, particularly the couple I know who are United fans, the gaydar almost explodes. Do they go to Old Trafford? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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