Saints Rainbow Shirt

[WFTJM89]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I dont believe Saints are behind the curve at all. 20 odd years ago a very prominent Saints fan came out as gay when he was on a TV program. He is a top bloke as big a saints fan as you can get and although before that it wasn't common knowledge he was gay when he came out no one cared. I couldn't tell you if he got any abuse or not, im not aware of any and it was before the days of twitter and facebook so it wouldnt have been online but what i do remember it was very much more of "didnt know that oh well" and then everyone got on with their lives and didn't treat him any differently. 

The current climate seems to be that we need these various fan groups to raise awareness and push that St Marys is not homophobic, when in reality you can do as many surveys and create as many fans groups as you like, i dont think the vast majority of people care about who you are attracted too. If it scares you (and this isn't aimed at you) that someone 30 yards away shouts abuse at someone else a hundred yards away then i would suggest that maybe you're a little too sensitive, it happens, people sometimes say nasty things.  If you expect to grow through life expecting it all to be 70 degrees and sunny with rainbows and dancing everyone telling each other how wonderful they are then you're going to be in for a disappointment. 

And this is the essence of the problem. We're just one of the many groups that are working with the club to make sure that football continues to grow up a bit and become an atmosphere where people won't hurl any abuse, because at the end of the day, abuse of any kind is abuse. And surely we don't want ANY abuse at St Mary's.

Sitting on your arse, shrugging your shoulders, and washing your hands of something 'because that's the way it's always been' is why nothing changes. It's the cowards way out.

And your observation on current climate is also wrong. We will absolutely put our hands up and say that on the whole things are much better than traditionally to be expected. But that doesn't mean there's still work to be done. At the very least, these groups (and like I've said, we are one of the newest groups and are something like the 40th group in English football, so we're not exactly at the front of this) are helping to cultivate the climate into which at least a half dozen well known top-flight players in EFL are preparing to come out into.

[whelk]

Absolutely no time for Neanderthal views but also football is a hostile place of abuse and not something that is simply eradicated. As Barnes will say it is a society issue and kids generally from working class background don’t behave in same way as Henley Regatta lot will. I am used to it and always been idiots and having thought police trying to pick up on any micro aggression is not realistic ie eradicating any abuse
Look at the contorted faces and signs that go to any opposition player celebrating in front of the crowd. Not the sort of thing you would expect to see anywhere else and generally embarrassing but football brings that tribal behaviour.

[Turkish]

42 minutes ago, WFTJM89 said:

And this is the essence of the problem. We're just one of the many groups that are working with the club to make sure that football continues to grow up a bit and become an atmosphere where people won't hurl any abuse, because at the end of the day, abuse of any kind is abuse. And surely we don't want ANY abuse at St Mary's.

Sitting on your arse, shrugging your shoulders, and washing your hands of something 'because that's the way it's always been' is why nothing changes. It's the cowards way out.

And your observation on current climate is also wrong. We will absolutely put our hands up and say that on the whole things are much better than traditionally to be expected. But that doesn't mean there's still work to be done. At the very least, these groups (and like I've said, we are one of the newest groups and are something like the 40th group in English football, so we're not exactly at the front of this) are helping to cultivate the climate into which at least a half dozen well known top-flight players in EFL are preparing to come out into.

Well if that is your goal i'm sorry but you're going to be forever disappointed. in crowds of 30000 plus there will always be a handful of people who say or do things you dont like. It's not a question of shrugging your shoulders, its simply accepting reality. It doesn't make it right but it happens and if your ultimate goal is to rid of all abuse forever then you are going to fail. 

I'm interested to know what more work you feel needs to be done and what this is. I've known many gay people go to St Marys over the years, including my sister and the guy i mentioned earlier, she's never told me she's felt uncomfortable or threatened at football. Just because we didn't have a specific LGBT fans group it doesn't mean we were behind the curve and with all due respect you've only been going for a few weeks so cant really know what the climate is like. 

 

Edited 1 December, 2021 by Turkish

[Turkish]

22 minutes ago, whelk said:

Absolutely no time for Neanderthal views but also football is a hostile place of abuse and not something that is simply eradicated. As Barnes will say it is a society issue and kids generally from working class background don’t behave in same way as Henley Regatta lot will. I am used to it and always been idiots and having thought police trying to pick up on any micro aggression is not realistic ie eradicating any abuse
Look at the contorted faces and signs that go to any opposition player celebrating in front of the crowd. Not the sort of thing you would expect to see anywhere else and generally embarrassing but football brings that tribal behaviour.

Spot on. If eradicating all abuse of any type is the end goal then it's going to fail from the start. Nothing will ever be enough and there will always be more work to be done, whatever that work is. 

[hypochondriac]

50 minutes ago, WFTJM89 said:

And this is the essence of the problem. We're just one of the many groups that are working with the club to make sure that football continues to grow up a bit and become an atmosphere where people won't hurl any abuse, because at the end of the day, abuse of any kind is abuse. And surely we don't want ANY abuse at St Mary's.

Sitting on your arse, shrugging your shoulders, and washing your hands of something 'because that's the way it's always been' is why nothing changes. It's the cowards way out.

And your observation on current climate is also wrong. We will absolutely put our hands up and say that on the whole things are much better than traditionally to be expected. But that doesn't mean there's still work to be done. At the very least, these groups (and like I've said, we are one of the newest groups and are something like the 40th group in English football, so we're not exactly at the front of this) are helping to cultivate the climate into which at least a half dozen well known top-flight players in EFL are preparing to come out into.

Not sure about that. I want an awful lot of abuse at John Westwood when he is in the ground. Some abuse is part of football and rather amusing. Personally I think you deal with any sort of real racist abuse or similar by either reporting the individuals concerned or having a word if you feel able to. I don't think having a "safe space" is going to assist with that and as I said, in my opinion it's more inclusive and progressive to focus on what we all have in common rather than all our various differences. 

[hypochondriac]

18 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Well if that is your goal i'm sorry but you're going to be forever disappointed. in crowds of 30000 plus there will always be a handful of people who say or do things you dont like. It's not a question of shrugging your shoulders, its simply accepting reality. It doesn't make it right but it happens and if your ultimate goal is to rid of all abuse forever then you are going to fail. 

I'm interested to know what more work you feel needs to be done and what this is. I've known many gay people go to St Marys over the years, including my sister and the guy i mentioned earlier, she's never told me she's felt uncomfortable or threatened at football. Just because we didn't have a specific LGBT fans group it doesn't mean we were behind the curve and with all due respect you've only been going for a few weeks so cant really know what the climate is like. 

 

Exactly. You don't need a special identity group for the football to be a welcoming and friendly place the majority of the time (and for individuals to be dealt with when it isn't if appropriate.)

[Alanh]

Surely this isn't much different to having a regional Saints supporters group i.e. Northern Saints or London Saints where like minded individuals know they can meet up either physically or online and perhaps go to matches together.  If there wasn't one of these types of groups before and Saints were one of the few / last clubs to have one then that's a good thing.  I can't see that this group is trying to create division, it's just offering a 'place' for like minded fans to gather.

[manji]

The LGBT group don’t understand football and they don’t understand the working class .

Edited 1 December, 2021 by manji

[adrian lord]

Competitive sports, especially team sports, are male aggression and violence, sublimated. As such they perform a vital role in civilising society, by facilitating the controlled, lawful discharge of male aggression in a harmless manner. This holds for the crowds spectating as much as the actual participants. The partisan, team and city based hostility, so channelled, is healthy. Of course unlawful abuse based on race and sexuality and gender and disability cannot be supported, but we must be careful of emasculating the game so much that it loses any passion, and the unintended consequences of innate male aggression being discharged elsewhere in damaging forms.

[Saint_Jonny]

5 minutes ago, adrian lord said:

Competitive sports, especially team sports, are male aggression and violence, sublimated. As such they perform a vital role in civilising society, by facilitating the controlled, lawful discharge of male aggression in a harmless manner. This holds for the crowds spectating as much as the actual participants. The partisan, team and city based hostility, so channelled, is healthy. Of course unlawful abuse based on race and sexuality and gender and disability cannot be supported, but we must be careful of emasculating the game so much that it loses any passion, and the unintended consequences of innate male aggression being discharged elsewhere in damaging forms.

Do you really believe that there are blokes walking around with a constant, slowly filling up "rage-o-meter" that if left unchecked would spill out into wider society to the detriment of us all? Because if so, I would suggest that is a bit dumb. Sure, I like a good scream and shout at the football, but if football ceased to exist tomorrow, I wouldn't be at more risk of boiling over, and I very much doubt any (sane) person would either. 

[aintforever]

55 minutes ago, Alanh said:

Surely this isn't much different to having a regional Saints supporters group i.e. Northern Saints or London Saints where like minded individuals know they can meet up either physically or online and perhaps go to matches together.  If there wasn't one of these types of groups before and Saints were one of the few / last clubs to have one then that's a good thing.  I can't see that this group is trying to create division, it's just offering a 'place' for like minded fans to gather.

This. If initiatives like this make even a few people feel more welcome/comfortable/safe then it is only a positive thing.

[whelk]

3 hours ago, Saint_Jonny said:

Do you really believe that there are blokes walking around with a constant, slowly filling up "rage-o-meter" that if left unchecked would spill out into wider society to the detriment of us all? Because if so, I would suggest that is a bit dumb. Sure, I like a good scream and shout at the football, but if football ceased to exist tomorrow, I wouldn't be at more risk of boiling over, and I very much doubt any (sane) person would either. 

I doubt you understand enough about yourself if you view in such simplistic terms

[Saint_Jonny]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

I doubt you understand enough about yourself if you view in such simplistic terms

I understand the sentiment just fine mate - you don't want football so sanitised that it becomes boring, and I agree. I am just making the point that if you believe that screaming at a referee at a football match is one of the few ways for a man to healthily stretch his inner caveman, then you are wrong. 

[whelk]

Just now, Saint_Jonny said:

I understand the sentiment just fine mate - you don't want football so sanitised that it becomes boring, and I agree. I am just making the point that if you believe that screaming at a referee at a football match is one of the few ways for a man to healthily stretch his inner caveman, then you are wrong. 

His point was male aggression needs an outlet and if it isn’t at football it will be somewhere else. More subtle than if we didn’t have football we would all be throwing bricks at people.

[TWar]

3 hours ago, adrian lord said:

Competitive sports, especially team sports, are male aggression and violence, sublimated. As such they perform a vital role in civilising society, by facilitating the controlled, lawful discharge of male aggression in a harmless manner. This holds for the crowds spectating as much as the actual participants. The partisan, team and city based hostility, so channelled, is healthy. Of course unlawful abuse based on race and sexuality and gender and disability cannot be supported, but we must be careful of emasculating the game so much that it loses any passion, and the unintended consequences of innate male aggression being discharged elsewhere in damaging forms.

What do all the men who don't like football/sports do? They seem to be able to keep themselves in check without decking the postman.

[Dman]

3 hours ago, aintforever said:

This. If initiatives like this make even a few people feel more welcome/comfortable/safe then it is only a positive thing.

Disagree. Groups like this, who’s aim is to irradiate ‘all abuse’, will damage the already pathetic atmosphere we get at St Mary’s. 

Imo, aggression, hostility and abuse (within reason) has a place in football crowds as it creates an intimidating atmosphere and therefore a competitive advantage to the home side. 

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, Dman said:

Disagree. Groups like this, who’s aim is to irradiate ‘all abuse’, will damage the already pathetic atmosphere we get at St Mary’s. 

Imo, aggression, hostility and abuse (within reason) has a place in football crowds as it creates an intimidating atmosphere and therefore a competitive advantage to the home side. 

If you need to abuse others to have a good time then that's a problem.

[adrian lord]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

I doubt you understand enough about yourself if you view in such simplistic terms

Peals before swine...

[Manuel]

44 minutes ago, TWar said:

If you need to abuse others to have a good time then that's a problem.

Referees excepted.  

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

Disagree. Groups like this, who’s aim is to irradiate ‘all abuse’, will damage the already pathetic atmosphere we get at St Mary’s. 

Imo, aggression, hostility and abuse (within reason) has a place in football crowds as it creates an intimidating atmosphere and therefore a competitive advantage to the home side. 

Where have they said that they want to stop people shouting at the ref or making a noise? I must have missed that bit, do you have a link?

[Dman]

49 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Where have they said that they want to stop people shouting at the ref or making a noise? I must have missed that bit, do you have a link?

I’ll link you to the top of this page, where WTFJM89, who has indicated in a previous post, that he is one of the founders, has stated: 

We're just one of the many groups that are working with the club to make sure that football continues to grow up a bit and become an atmosphere where people won't hurl any abuse, because at the end of the day, abuse of any kind is abuse. And surely we don't want ANY abuse at St Mary's.

As I said, part of a hostile atmosphere is abuse towards the opposition players, fans and the officials, at times. 

If there objective is to educate and stop people shouting homophobic abuse, then fair enough, perhaps he should add further context to the above statement. That being said, I don’t really think it is needed as that sort of stuff is extremely rare at St Mary’s. 

1 hour ago, TWar said:

If you need to abuse others to have a good time then that's a problem.

when have I said that? I pointed out it aids a hostile environment, which adds a competitive environment. Wouldn’t expect you to understand though, it’s not something you can measure on a spreadsheet. 

[TWar]

1 hour ago, Dman said:

I’ll link you to the top of this page, where WTFJM89, who has indicated in a previous post, that he is one of the founders, has stated: 

We're just one of the many groups that are working with the club to make sure that football continues to grow up a bit and become an atmosphere where people won't hurl any abuse, because at the end of the day, abuse of any kind is abuse. And surely we don't want ANY abuse at St Mary's.

As I said, part of a hostile atmosphere is abuse towards the opposition players, fans and the officials, at times. 

If there objective is to educate and stop people shouting homophobic abuse, then fair enough, perhaps he should add further context to the above statement. That being said, I don’t really think it is needed as that sort of stuff is extremely rare at St Mary’s. 

when have I said that? I pointed out it aids a hostile environment, which adds a competitive environment. Wouldn’t expect you to understand though, it’s not something you can measure on a spreadsheet. 

You said you don't want all abuse to end as it will harm the atmosphere. As if you having a good atmosphere is worth others being abused. This has nothing to do with "spreadsheets", it's basic human decency.

[adrian lord]

Clearly, the songbook needs re-writing. Here's a start:

"Can you see us, can you see us, can you see us holding hands?"

 

 

[Turkish]

On 30/11/2021 at 19:57, The Kraken said:

Can you imagine the stattos all sat together? Christ, a bunch of MLG and TWar types all sat amongst a collection of like minded souls making each other’s heads explode by trying to outdo each other in who can be the most pompously correct and never wrong about anything. They’d be the first group to start with the fists flying IMO, recipe for disaster.

Who do you reckon would win a fight between MLG and TWar?

Edited 2 December, 2021 by Turkish

[whelk]

33 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Who do you reckon would win a fight between MLG and TW War?

 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

 

[TWar]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

Who do you reckon would win a fight between MLG and TWar?

No disrespect to MLG, but I back myself. I'm a monster.

[TWar]

22 hours ago, Manuel said:

Referees excepted.  

Ofcourse.

[The Kraken]

3 hours ago, TWar said:

No disrespect to MLG, but I back myself. I'm a monster.

You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With MLG it's a full time job. Now behave yourself.

[TWar]

2 hours ago, The Kraken said:

You're a big man, but you're in bad shape. With MLG it's a full time job. Now behave yourself.

I have fast powerful hands, MLG better beware

[Turkish]

On 02/12/2021 at 22:14, TWar said:

I have fast powerful hands, MLG better beware

Charity boxing match between you? Proceeds could go to stattos with catos . A charity im setting up to treat football nerds with cataracts that prevent them enjoying playing with spreadsheets all day.  

Edited 4 December, 2021 by Turkish

[egg]

1 minute ago, Turkish said:

Charity boxing match between you? Proceeds could go to stattos with catos . A charity im setting up to treat football nerds with cataracts that prevent them enjoying playing with spreadsheets all day.  

They're one and the same surely? It'd be like that scrap in the krays where Tom Hardy's two characters kick the shit out of each other 

 

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

They're one and the same surely? It'd be like that scrap in the krays where Tom Hardy's two characters kick the shit out of each other 

 

Or like fight club where MLG is everything TWar imagines himself to be. 

[TWar]

2 hours ago, egg said:

They're one and the same surely? It'd be like that scrap in the krays where Tom Hardy's two characters kick the shit out of each other 

 

You reckon me and MLG are the same poster?

[egg]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

You reckon me and MLG are the same poster?

Wouldn't surprise me. Similarly dogmatic and obsessive about pointless detail. 

[TWar]

Just now, egg said:

Wouldn't surprise me. Similarly dogmatic and obsessive about pointless detail. 

It's not dogmatic to disagree with you mate. And what pointless details? I occasionally back up my points with numerical evidence, I don't see how that is pointless.

[Matthew Le God]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

Wouldn't surprise me. Similarly dogmatic and obsessive about pointless detail. 

Why would I need another account? This one does the job!

Edited 4 December, 2021 by Matthew Le God

[Toadhall Saint]

2 minutes ago, TWar said:

It's not dogmatic to disagree with you mate. And what pointless details? I occasionally back up my points with numerical evidence, I don't see how that is pointless.

There you go - evidence if there ever was some. 😂

[egg]

1 hour ago, TWar said:

It's not dogmatic to disagree with you mate. And what pointless details? I occasionally back up my points with numerical evidence, I don't see how that is pointless.

 

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

Why would I need another account? This one does the job!

Now those responses make me doubt my theory. One is in keeping with the character, the other has a bit of humour. 

Stop with the confusion fella/s. 

[Wade Garrett]

Thought the bloke being interviewed at half-time spoke well.

[Millbrook Saint]

On 04/12/2021 at 18:50, Wade Garrett said:

Thought the bloke being interviewed at half-time spoke well.

what did he say, have to admit I didn't fancy a lecture at half time so switched off, I can guess that it was something along the lines of just being accepted and treated as a normal fan, though I still can't get my head round the fact he then creates all this fanfare about his sexuality, I guarantee most people he sits near wouldn't have even known or cared he was gay till he got up onto the pitch for his performance.  

[whelk]

On 04/12/2021 at 15:58, egg said:

 

Now those responses make me doubt my theory. One is in keeping with the character, the other has a bit of humour. 

Stop with the confusion fella/s. 

Ask them both a question about belief in God. And if Twar comes back about smiting homosexuals from Deuteronomy then he is MLG.

 

[TWar]

11 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ask them both a question about belief in God. And if Twar comes back about smiting homosexuals from Deuteronomy then he is MLG.

 

I'm agnostic. And against the smiting of homosexuals. Haven't read Deuteronomy. 

[Lighthouse]

28 minutes ago, whelk said:

Ask them both a question about belief in God.

 

16 minutes ago, TWar said:

I'm agnostic.

Unless this is an exceptional bluff, he's not MLG.

[WFTJM89]

20 hours ago, Millbrook Saint said:

what did he say, have to admit I didn't fancy a lecture at half time so switched off, I can guess that it was something along the lines of just being accepted and treated as a normal fan, though I still can't get my head round the fact he then creates all this fanfare about his sexuality, I guarantee most people he sits near wouldn't have even known or cared he was gay till he got up onto the pitch for his performance.  

If your instinct is to switch off for fear of being lectured then it's pointless trying to recall what was said, because ultimately you're unwilling to listen.

But just in case this is an unfair conclusion, basically two main points:

-LGBT people generally don't feel very welcome in football world (see this thread for reasons why 😉). If we can show that actually they have nothing to fear, then that = more fans = more people coming to matches = more money etc etc. This I'm sure you will agree is only a good thing - particularly for a club that is not big in the same way that some are.

-Football is global. SFC is bigger than Southampton. It may not be a huge issue in this country because we have relatively good equality here. This might all mean very little to us privileged people in this country, but in places where people face imprisonment or execution for coming out as LGBT, just seeing that the club support them can offer some hope. 

[Turkish]

25 minutes ago, WFTJM89 said:

If your instinct is to switch off for fear of being lectured then it's pointless trying to recall what was said, because ultimately you're unwilling to listen.

But just in case this is an unfair conclusion, basically two main points:

-LGBT people generally don't feel very welcome in football world (see this thread for reasons why 😉). If we can show that actually they have nothing to fear, then that = more fans = more people coming to matches = more money etc etc. This I'm sure you will agree is only a good thing - particularly for a club that is not big in the same way that some are.

-Football is global. SFC is bigger than Southampton. It may not be a huge issue in this country because we have relatively good equality here. This might all mean very little to us privileged people in this country, but in places where people face imprisonment or execution for coming out as LGBT, just seeing that the club support them can offer some hope. 

I'd like to understand what exactly it is LGBT people are in fear of. As i mentioned i've known a few who have never had any problems and there is a poster on here who is openly LGBT, i've never met her but she has never spoken about any issues, in fact if anything she is very abusive herself!!

I'm really not quite sure how anyone would even know if someone was LGBT or not unless they were walking around making a point of the fact they were, which is another point entirely. As i mentioned before then if what is being expected is that they are to enter a football stadium with 30000 plus people and never hear anyone say anything they dont like then sorry, you're always going to be disappointed. 

As for your other point about this thread, not really sure anyone has been abusive or unwelcoming on here, you seem like a perfectly reasonable chap, but plenty of people seem to be interested in just what the actual issue is. 

Edited 8 December, 2021 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

3 hours ago, WFTJM89 said:

LGBT people generally don't feel very welcome in football world (see this thread for reasons why 😉)

Any particular posts you’re concerned about? We haven’t had anything reported that’s been deemed homophobic as such.

[East Kent Saint]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

Any particular posts you’re concerned about? We haven’t had anything reported that’s been deemed homophobic as such.

Anything by Turkish or Hypo etc that claim they are not in any way prejudiced but …..

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Anything by Turkish or Hypo etc that claim they are not in any way prejudiced but …..

Dont you like people who ask questions and express curiosity? Maybe we should all just stand by and applaud everything we are told to because we think it makes us look like nice people instead.

[East Kent Saint]

6 hours ago, Turkish said:

Dont you like people who ask questions and express curiosity? Maybe we should all just stand by and applaud everything we are told to because we think it makes us look like nice people instead.

I am happy with people to express their opinions and it does make you think . However some posters can be guaranteed to post contrary posts on some subjects regardless . I do not applaud anything I’m told but that’s me .

I see that Asian teams in Yorkshire have pointed out that are excluded from progression to Yorkshire CC , as a rule , contrary to your assertion in a previous thread .