Taking the knee

[Turkish]

53 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What about the BAME people who don't agree that it's like you describe? How do we know which ones to just listen and believe? 

Remember soggys view is all second hand, he doesn’t know any BAME people 

Edited 8 August, 2021 by Turkish

[kyle04]

51 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

You’ve not read supersonics posts or listen to other BAME’s people’s experiences then. Can you imagine who you would feel having people constantly picking on you because of your colour or religion. Hate crime figures are on the rise. I am used to the usual suspects playing down the problems of racism because they are ignorant and have nothing better to do with their times than attack people on social media who speak out against racism but to come along and say that the “reported examples of racism in this country seem to be largely confined to a few nasty social media posts” takes ignorance beyond the level of Turkish and hypo’s tiresome crusade against anti racists. 

I remember Lee Rigby being "picked on", that's for sure, all forgotten now though, where's his mural..?  My point , I thought, was quite clear - namely the comparison between the UK and US regarding racism, now and perhaps historically, if you really want to go down that road. I respect your passion for the subject, and I'm not being facetious, but the point here is perspective. "Hate crime figures are on the rise", a result of the most discredited and flawed legislation in the history of this country, please read the definition of a "hate crime", a purely subjective and very dangerous PC fudge that the police are spending far too much time "investigating". So you go on "speaking out" against racism, I'm sure it makes you feel a little more worthy, see you made me into Turkish junior with just 1 post (no offense Turkish but you seem to be the bad guy on this topic...)

[kyle04]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

 

 

Edited 8 August, 2021 by kyle04
duplicate

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, kyle04 said:

I remember Lee Rigby being "picked on", that's for sure, all forgotten now though, where's his mural..? 

Memorial in Woolwich, put up 6 years ago. Why the ....dots...?

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Remember soggys view is all second hand, he doesn’t know any BAME people 

Unlike all the others here whose friends gathering are just a hotbed of multiculturalism and all non-white friends just condemn BLM?

[rallyboy]

Rarely has a thread gone nowhere and achieved so little at such pace.

In fact this 'debate' could last forever unless someone is brave enough to put it out of its misery...

#boltgun

 

[Turkish]

I see there is a new drama coming on tv about the Stephen Lawrence murder 28 years ago. Should be interesting, the original one that came out about 4 years ago was very good.

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, rallyboy said:

Rarely has a thread gone nowhere and achieved so little at such pace.

In fact this 'debate' could last forever unless someone is brave enough to put it out of its misery...

#boltgun

 

Are you sure about that sir? 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Unlike all the others here whose friends gathering are just a hotbed of multiculturalism and all non-white friends just condemn BLM?

Interesting isn’t it. The two main cheerleaders of taking the knee are an old middle class bloke who doesn’t know any BAME people and a bloke who bottled it when he had the chance to do something about racism going on right in front of him.

[Warriorsaint]

This is all very sad 😔. So much division. Why does it bother people so much. If you don’t like it ignore it. Others want to support our players taking the knee. Where’s the harm?

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Interesting isn’t it. The two main cheerleaders of taking the knee are an old middle class bloke who doesn’t know any BAME people and a bloke who bottled it when he had the chance to do something about racism going on right in front of him.

And there’s you, the guy so desperate to prove he isn’t racist, he has to constantly tell us about his black friend. 

I’m surprised you havn’t told us you own a Snoop Dog album and “like a good curry as much as the next guy”.

 

[Turkish]

6 hours ago, aintforever said:

And there’s you, the guy so desperate to prove he isn’t racist, he has to constantly tell us about his black friend. 

I’m surprised you havn’t told us you own a Snoop Dog album and “like a good curry as much as the next guy”.

 

🤣 says the guy so desperate to prove he’s not racist he ends up tied up in knots every single time the subject comes up  

[hypochondriac]

8 hours ago, Warriorsaint said:

This is all very sad 😔. So much division. Why does it bother people so much. If you don’t like it ignore it. Others want to support our players taking the knee. Where’s the harm?

I find it interesting that you lament all the division but then support the gestures that are the cause of said division. 

[Dorchester Saint]

On 03/08/2021 at 18:51, SKD said:

I’ll add 1 comment and 1 comment only. I wonder if players who refused / declined to take the knee at the euros in Bednerak, vestergaard, schmeichel, PEH, Adams, Armstrong (to name a few), will take the knee during this season. 
 

Mixed messages, it seems. 

If their mega rich bosses tell them to get down on their knees like subservient bitches, then that’s exactly what they’ll do. 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Dorchester Saint said:

If their mega rich bosses tell them to get down on their knees like subservient bitches, then that’s exactly what they’ll do. 

Brilliant! So the players are being forced to do it against their will. The same players that pretty much hold all the power and can force through multi-million pound transfers if they fancy a few more quid at another club.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better when you boo the lads for making harmless anti-racism gesture.

 

 

[Turkish]

8 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Brilliant! So the players are being forced to do it against their will. The same players that pretty much hold all the power and can force through multi-million pound transfers if they fancy a few more quid at another club.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better when you boo the lads for making harmless anti-racism gesture.

 

 

Why didn't any of the none English players take the knee during the Euros if they are so much behind it?

[hypochondriac]

13 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Brilliant! So the players are being forced to do it against their will. The same players that pretty much hold all the power and can force through multi-million pound transfers if they fancy a few more quid at another club.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better when you boo the lads for making harmless anti-racism gesture.

 

 

Do you reckon every single player wants to kneel before every game? Or do you think there's a diversity of opinion but some players just want to keep their heads down for a quiet life? What do you reckon? (bearing in mind I know for a fact that the latter is true.)

[Dorchester Saint]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Brilliant! So the players are being forced to do it against their will. The same players that pretty much hold all the power and can force through multi-million pound transfers if they fancy a few more quid at another club.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better when you boo the lads for making harmless anti-racism gesture.

 

 

🤣🤣 You are incredibly naive !! 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Do you reckon every single player wants to kneel before every game? Or do you think there's a diversity of opinion but some players just want to keep their heads down for a quiet life? What do you reckon? (bearing in mind I know for a fact that the latter is true.)

I expect there are plenty who don't really care about racism and just go along with it because it's just a harmless gesture, most probably don't like the abuse their friends and colleagues get so are happy to join in.

Plenty of English players didn't take the knee last year, no-one gave a shite.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

I expect there are plenty who don't really care about racism and just go along with it because it's just a harmless gesture, most probably don't like the abuse their friends and colleagues get so are happy to join in.

Plenty of English players didn't take the knee last year, no-one gave a shite.

Are you going to give your view on why the none English players didn't take the knee at the Euros if they are so behind it, as you claim they are

[aintforever]

17 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Are you going to give your view on why the none English players didn't take the knee at the Euros if they are so behind it, as you claim they are

If you write a question that actually makes sense I might answer it. 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

If you write a question that actually makes sense I might answer it. 

oh we're off back down the everyone else is thick route are we?!!!

Okay as you're struggling i'll spell it out. As it's the players decision and they are no way influenced by their clubs or the PL, why didn't the none English premier league players take the knee at the Euros? Given it's their own choice and all that. 

[badgerx16]

29 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Are you going to give your view on why the none English players didn't take the knee at the Euros if they are so behind it, as you claim they are

 

10 minutes ago, aintforever said:

If you write a question that actually makes sense I might answer it. 

The question posed, as presented, makes sense.

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

oh we're off back down the everyone else is thick route are we?!!!

Okay as you're struggling i'll spell it out. As it's the players decision and they are no way influenced by their clubs or the PL, why didn't the none English premier league players take the knee at the Euros? Given it's their own choice and all that. 

I expect they didn’t give a shite either way and just went with what the majority of their team decided. Fact is many players don’t take the knee and no one cares.

[Dorchester Saint]

7 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I expect they didn’t give a shite either way and just went with what the majority of their team decided. Fact is many players don’t take the knee and no one cares.

You come across as an incredibly naive young man, whilst I find it amusing, it also feels a bit cruel to watching everyone goading you. I think you should probably step back from this thread now because you’re making a bit of a tit of yourself. 

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I expect they didn’t give a shite either way and just went with what the majority of their team decided. Fact is many players don’t take the knee and no one cares.

Hang on a minute, you were full of gushing praise for how great it was that the lads took the knee when it all started, now you're saying in reality they dont give a shit and just do what everyone else does. Only a few posts ago you were saying millionaire footballers wouldn't do anything if they didn't want to as they hold all the aces!!! All over the place, yet again, come on, do the "you're so thick" line  

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

 

The question posed, as presented, makes sense.

Just trying to play the "everyones so thick" card as usual. Although now he's admitted the players probably dont give a shit then it kind of pisses all over his entire stance. 

[sadoldgit]

23 minutes ago, Dorchester Saint said:

You come across as an incredibly naive young man, whilst I find it amusing, it also feels a bit cruel to watching everyone goading you. I think you should probably step back from this thread now because you’re making a bit of a tit of yourself. 

I think the only people making tits of themselves are the ones who think they know better than those being abused.

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I think the only people making tits of themselves are the ones who think they know better than those being abused.

that's you that is.

No one has said racism doesn't exist and no one has said (apart from you) that they know better than everyone else. The whole discussion have been about if taking the knee is causing division and if there are better/more effective methods of anti racism gestures. It seems of the two biggest cheerleaders aintforever has said the players only do it because others do and dont give a shit anyway. You have have been reduced to "well it isn't doing harm, just ignore it" line. It kind of suggests when even you two who have been the loudest applauding from the sidelines since the start are making these assessments that it really isn't that effective.  Although amusing to see once again you completely fail to comprehend the discussion. 

Edited 9 August, 2021 by Turkish

[Weston Super Saint]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I think the only people making tits of themselves are the ones who think they know better than those being abused.

And the one claiming that everyone else was talking about people 'being lectured' when it was only them that mentioned it, proper tit of himself that one made.

[Weston Super Saint]

56 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I expect they didn’t give a shite either way and just went with what the majority of their team decided. Fact is many players don’t take the knee and no one cares.

The other day you were piously telling us that "they should be respected for trying to do something about it".

Today it looks like you're telling us that they don't give a shite.

All. Over. The. Place.

[egg]

1 hour ago, Dorchester Saint said:

You come across as an incredibly naive young man, whilst I find it amusing, it also feels a bit cruel to watching everyone goading you. I think you should probably step back from this thread now because you’re making a bit of a tit of yourself. 

 

59 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I think the only people making tits of themselves are the ones who think they know better than those being abused.

You're not helping your mate out here SOG, a true ally would suggest that he stays out of harms way. 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Hang on a minute, you were full of gushing praise for how great it was that the lads took the knee when it all started, now you're saying in reality they dont give a shit and just do what everyone else does. Only a few posts ago you were saying millionaire footballers wouldn't do anything if they didn't want to as they hold all the aces!!! All over the place, yet again, come on, do the "you're so thick" line  

Some players obviously really want to do it, the others probably don’t give a shite and just do it anyway out of respect for their teammates, it’s really not a hard concept to grasp, for most of us.

 

[egg]

17 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Some players obviously really want to do it, the others probably don’t give a shite and just do it anyway out of respect for their teammates, it’s really not a hard concept to grasp, for most of us.

 

Ivan Toney of Brentford said last year that his team weren't taking the knee as they were "being used as puppets". 

Brentford are taking the knee this year. 

Do you think that's because they want to and all of a sudden are happy to be "puppets" , or there's an obligation? 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11748/12221923/ivan-toney-explains-why-brentford-players-wont-take-a-knee-we-are-being-used-as-puppets

[Lord Duckhunter]

19 hours ago, Turkish said:

I see there is a new drama coming on tv about the Stephen Lawrence murder 28 years ago. Should be interesting, the original one that came out about 4 years ago was very good.

I hope The Daily Mails role in bringing the culprits to justice is acknowledged. 

[aintforever]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

Ivan Toney of Brentford said last year that his team weren't taking the knee as they were "being used as puppets". 

Brentford are taking the knee this year. 

Do you think that's because they want to and all of a sudden are happy to be "puppets" , or there's an obligation? 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11748/12221923/ivan-toney-explains-why-brentford-players-wont-take-a-knee-we-are-being-used-as-puppets

Ivan Toney is not going to take the knee this season apparently, it’s up to him what he does. Not sure where that fits in with the ‘obligation’?

[whelk]

25 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I hope The Daily Mails role in bringing the culprits to justice is acknowledged. 

Did any of them get time? Agree though and Mail played part in exposing these vile evil scum

[egg]

9 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Ivan Toney is not going to take the knee this season apparently, it’s up to him what he does. Not sure where that fits in with the ‘obligation’?

Three points. 

1. Why do you feel in any position to say everything you've said about taking the knee when a black Premier league player says that players are "being used as puppets" and won't be taking the knee himself? 

2. Are your seriously saying that you can't see the link between the sudden willingness of (most) Brentford players to take the knee and their promotion to the Premier league? What's more likely, that someone has had a little word, or all of a sudden they don't think that they're being used as puppets? 

3. Has it occurred to you that sponsors will want clubs and players to do what it is felt is the "right thing", ie sponsors are woke and pious like you and SOG. 

[Lighthouse]

I can’t help but feel this discussion would be a lot less tedious if some people could just accept that other people are against the basic principle of compelled speech/expression. The stubbornness on this issue really isn’t getting us anywhere.

[aintforever]

20 minutes ago, egg said:

Three points. 

1. Why do you feel in any position to say everything you've said about taking the knee when a black Premier league player says that players are "being used as puppets" and won't be taking the knee himself? 

2. Are your seriously saying that you can't see the link between the sudden willingness of (most) Brentford players to take the knee and their promotion to the Premier league? What's more likely, that someone has had a little word, or all of a sudden they don't think that they're being used as puppets? 

3. Has it occurred to you that sponsors will want clubs and players to do what it is felt is the "right thing", ie sponsors are woke and pious like you and SOG. 

If you actually read that article, Toney stopped doing it because he thought it was losing its effect and they were like puppets for the people up top whilst no real change is happening. It’s not like he was scared of the Marxists or against BLM or anything. He sounds pretty Woke to me.

Maybe they feel that now in the Prem a united approach is best placed to help make change? 

Edited 9 August, 2021 by aintforever

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

I can’t help but feel this discussion would be a lot less tedious if some people could just accept that other people are against the basic principle of compelled speech/expression. The stubbornness on this issue really isn’t getting us anywhere.

So you don’t think that the stubbornness is on both side of the argument? Have we established that every premiership player has to kneel whether they want to or not? If so, why didn’t Zaha get the memo? I assume the players Union don’t have a problem with it. Wouldn’t they kick off if their member were forced to do something against their will? There has clearly been a decision made by PL clubs to carry on doing it. Instead of complaining on here to people who don’t give a damn, why don’t those who are against people kneeling for a couple of seconds take it up with the EPL?

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

So you don’t think that the stubbornness is on both side of the argument? Have we established that every premiership player has to kneel whether they want to or not? If so, why didn’t Zaha get the memo? I assume the players Union don’t have a problem with it. Wouldn’t they kick off if their member were forced to do something against their will? There has clearly been a decision made by PL clubs to carry on doing it. Instead of complaining on here to people who don’t give a damn, why don’t those who are against people kneeling for a couple of seconds take it up with the EPL?

The people you are preaching about are not against players kneeling, which is their free choice. They just see it as a pointless and ineffective gesture that panders to a vocal minority. ( To be clear, I refer to BLM specifically, not minority ethnic groups in general ).

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

If you actually read that article, Toney stopped doing it because he thought it was losing its effect and they were like puppets for the people up top whilst no real change is happening. It’s not like he was scared of the Marxists or against BLM or anything. He sounds pretty Woke to me.

Maybe they feel that now in the Prem a united approach is best placed to help make change? 

So being told to do a totally ineffective gesture by those in charge then, kind of what you’ve been saying wasn’t going on. 

[LenPa]

What a discussion for a partly difficult topic.

I mean in the end it cannot be wrong to stand up for such a topic and try to make some changes - even if it may is ineffective it creates awareness (but of course people should not be instrumentalise or forced to do something).

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, LenPa said:

What a discussion for a partly difficult topic.

I mean in the end it cannot be wrong to stand up for such a topic and try to make some changes - even if it may is ineffective it creates awareness (but of course people should not be instrumentalise or forced to do something).

But as people have pointed out, this gesture is antagonistic to many and polls have shown this to be counter productive and has led to greater racial tensions not less. 

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, LenPa said:

What a discussion for a partly difficult topic.

I mean in the end it cannot be wrong to stand up for such a topic and try to make some changes - even if it may is ineffective it creates awareness (but of course people should not be instrumentalise or forced to do something).

It isn't wrong to stand up for this topic, as we've seen from the reaction of other campaigns being positively received. However much the cheerleaders dont like it the taking the knee is divisive and antagonistic. People like Soggy say to ignore the gesture, anyone that boos it is a racist. Well thats kind of the point, which unsurprisingly he fails to grasp. its not being anti racist that is the issue it's the gesture. For example Millwall fans booed the knee but the following week applauded their same players making a different gesture. Did anyone boo kick it out? So it's not hard to work out the cause isn't the issue here.

Edited 10 August, 2021 by Turkish

[sadoldgit]

14 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

The people you are preaching about are not against players kneeling, which is their free choice. They just see it as a pointless and ineffective gesture that panders to a vocal minority. ( To be clear, I refer to BLM specifically, not minority ethnic groups in general ).

Which is absolutely fine and they are entitled to their opinion (even if they constantly repeat it when they have already made their  point hundreds of times). It doesn’t alter the fact that those on the receiving end are more than entitled to demonstrate against racism in any lawful they choose and it doesn’t do any harm to let them get on with it without the constant criticism if that is what they want to do. Booing and criticising doesn’t help deal with the problem either. Supporting any stand against racism no matter what we think personally as unaffected white people is probably the least we can do.

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Which is absolutely fine and they are entitled to their opinion (even if they constantly repeat it when they have already made their  point hundreds of times). It doesn’t alter the fact that those on the receiving end are more than entitled to demonstrate against racism in any lawful they choose and it doesn’t do any harm to let them get on with it without the constant criticism if that is what they want to do. Booing and criticising doesn’t help deal with the problem either. Supporting any stand against racism no matter what we think personally as unaffected white people is probably the least we can do.

So when the Police took the knee in front of the BLM protest, were they supporting the aims of tbe marchers because they believed in the gesture, or were they simply following orders ? And the trope of the 'Privileged White' is flawed and insulting.

Edited 10 August, 2021 by badgerx16

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Which is absolutely fine and they are entitled to their opinion (even if they constantly repeat it when they have already made their  point hundreds of times). It doesn’t alter the fact that those on the receiving end are more than entitled to demonstrate against racism in any lawful they choose and it doesn’t do any harm to let them get on with it without the constant criticism if that is what they want to do. Booing and criticising doesn’t help deal with the problem either. Supporting any stand against racism no matter what we think personally as unaffected white people is probably the least we can do.

What?!! SO you support scenes like this do you in the name of "Standing up to racism"?  

'Black Lives Matter' protest descends into violence in London - YouTube

Officer knocked off horse during clash with BLM protesters in London - YouTube

 

 

 

Although maybe you'll believe what some of us have been saying now it's in your only source of news.

Black Lives Matter has increased racial tension, 55% say in UK poll | Black Lives Matter movement | The Guardian

 

[hypochondriac]

"unaffected white people". Goodness me the way these people talk is insane. Critical race theory is like a woke religion.