Taking the knee

[Turkish]

Just now, egg said:

You know what, grand idea. I'll exit left. 

Why are you making it about lefties? Division is what they want.

[egg]

Just now, Turkish said:

Why are you making it about lefties? Division is what they want.

Ha!! I'll divide myself equally between the left door, right door, and all the others on between. On one knee. I think that covers it. 

[Turkish]

 

43 minutes ago, whelk said:

Turkish hasn’t arrived yet either

Have soggy and aintclever arrived to applaud from the sidelines?

[East Kent Saint]

5 minutes ago, JRM said:

I think a high percentage of the abusive tweets sent after the missed pens were from accounts outside the UK? Not that sky and the like would want to highlight that, far better to continue with the message that we live in such an oppressive racist society. 

The tweets are just a small part of the issue so the “it’s just a few tweets , most from non uk accounts” doesn’t negate the problem . The message is not that our country is an oppressive racist society but that racism does still exist in our country . It is slowly improving (I include myself in that ) but some more work is required . We are not helped by May’s hostile environment or stop and search bias or even COVID on the spot fines bias .

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

The tweets are just a small part of the issue so the “it’s just a few tweets , most from non uk accounts” doesn’t negate the problem . The message is not that our country is an oppressive racist society but that racism does still exist in our country . It is slowly improving (I include myself in that ) but some more work is required . We are not helped by May’s hostile environment or stop and search bias or even COVID on the spot fines bias .

Just a few tweets, just one person in a crowd of 50,000 arrested. Just 224 arrests for racism out of 11m people attending matches in 2019/20. Do you think the reaction is disproportionate to the problem?

[AlexLaw76]

6 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

The tweets are just a small part of the issue so the “it’s just a few tweets , most from non uk accounts” doesn’t negate the problem . The message is not that our country is an oppressive racist society but that racism does still exist in our country . It is slowly improving (I include myself in that ) but some more work is required . We are not helped by May’s hostile environment or stop and search bias or even COVID on the spot fines bias .

so, you are a racist.  Good to know.

The UK will be so much more tolerant (stats wise), when Scotland go it alone.  Their own intolerance towards the English is disgraceful.

 

in all seriousness, we are in a period where the demand for racism far outstrips the supply.

As said, the very same players will be busting a gut to get to Qatar.  It is remarkable hypocricy. 

Edited 3 August, 2021 by AlexLaw76

[JRM]

5 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

The tweets are just a small part of the issue so the “it’s just a few tweets , most from non uk accounts” doesn’t negate the problem . The message is not that our country is an oppressive racist society but that racism does still exist in our country . It is slowly improving (I include myself in that ) but some more work is required . We are not helped by May’s hostile environment or stop and search bias or even COVID on the spot fines bias .

It's a really mixed up subject, but continuing to associate themselves with BLM is the wrong thing to do,  agree with you when you say thought they'd try something different this season, chance for a fresh start. 

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

so, you are a racist.  Good to know.

The UK will be so much more tolerant (stats wise), when Scotland go it alone.  Their own intolerance towards the English is disgraceful.

 

in all seriousness, we are in a period where the demand for racism far outstrips the supply.

As said, the very same players will be busting a gut to get to Qatar.  It is remarkable hypocricy. 

I guess In the absence of much real racism we have to sensationalize what we have, along with trying to convince ourselves that things love knives and forks are a symbol for racism and colonialism.

[itchen]

It will continue for as long as the players,  particularly those from ethnic minorities, still feel it is an effective way of drawing attention to the racism in our society.  I think it will, sadly, be for a long time.

[JRM]

1 minute ago, itchen said:

It will continue for as long as the players,  particularly those from ethnic minorities, still feel it is an effective way of drawing attention to the racism in our society.  I think it will, sadly, be for a long time.

Some the tweets I saw after the final were ridiculous, but must admit I could see this song taking off this season, can you imagine the whole Chapel end on their feet roaring it out 

 

[Manuel]

I thought they might have moved on to a different social goal for this season.  Climate change perhaps or LBGT rights.

[SaintTex]

55 minutes ago, egg said:

That's the sort of lazy comment my last post was alluding to. Not one person has said that they are enraged by it. Read what people are actually saying. Considering it a pointless and unhelpful exercise is not being enraged by it. 

I understand where you are coming from - reasonable people, with their heart in the right place, can disagree whether kneeling is pointless or unhelpful. I tend to believe a weekly reminder is helpful. You think differently, and that is fine.

Whether it is or isn't, those brief 15 seconds of the match day certainly don't inconvenience the average supporter over the course of 2 hours, so it hardly seems worth arguing over.

 

Edited 3 August, 2021 by SaintTex

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, Dig Dig said:

If only people showed as much outrage at actual racism as they do against an anti-racism gesture, the players would no longer feel the need to do it. 

When 

 

50 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

He didn't say the 'least racist society', he said 'one of the least racist societies', there is a difference between those two statements. Plus it isn't unreasonable as a statement. Sure you can point to lots of racist parts of UK society, but the UK's population is more diverse than many nations and a diverse population and multiculturalism generally equates a more accepting society in regard to race. It is countries where there is less diversity in the population where they are generally less tolerate of different races. That of course does not been the UK is any where near where it ideally should be... just more so than many others.

Blomey I agree with MLG! Looking at social attitude surveys, the UK population consistently scores very highly in being welcoming to minorities and accepting of diversity. We are clearly one of the most tolerant and accepting nations on Earth. 

[hypochondriac]

47 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Remember they are doing it because they chose too, not because they are told too.

(even though I've spoken to two premier league footballers who said to my face that they do it for a quiet life.)

[LiberalCommunist]

Just as long as they do it in Qatar, then that's fair enough. 

[aintforever]

I expect they are only carrying on with it because of the few Gammon buckle-draggers who booed and bell-ends like Turkish who try and make out it’s something it’s not.

Good on them, wether the problem in this country is bad or not it’s an undoubtedly good cause.

[hypochondriac]

34 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

The tweets are just a small part of the issue so the “it’s just a few tweets , most from non uk accounts” doesn’t negate the problem . The message is not that our country is an oppressive racist society but that racism does still exist in our country . It is slowly improving (I include myself in that ) but some more work is required . We are not helped by May’s hostile environment or stop and search bias or even COVID on the spot fines bias .

You include yourself? You consider yourself to be racist? Weird. 

[hypochondriac]

4 minutes ago, aintforever said:

I expect they are only carrying on with it because of the few Gammon buckle-draggers who booed and bell-ends like Turkish who try and make out it’s something it’s not.

Good on them, wether the problem in this country is bad or not it’s an undoubtedly good cause.

Exactly. They can't stop now or the racists win. There is no acceptable time to stop kneeling. 

[East Kent Saint]

27 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

so, you are a racist.  Good to know.

The UK will be so much more tolerant (stats wise), when Scotland go it alone.  Their own intolerance towards the English is disgraceful.

 

in all seriousness, we are in a period where the demand for racism far outstrips the supply.

As said, the very same players will be busting a gut to get to Qatar.  It is remarkable hypocricy. 

I was referring to the 60s and 70s when attitudes were different , I like to think I’ve moved on from there ! The Qatar issue is a different problem , if English footballers wanted to boycott it I imagine they would be penalised by FIFA and they would carry on without us . 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, East Kent Saint said:

I was referring to the 60s and 70s when attitudes were different , I like to think I’ve moved on from there ! The Qatar issue is a different problem , if English footballers wanted to boycott it I imagine they would be penalised by FIFA and they would carry on without us . 

That doesn't mean you were racist, simply that societal norms have changed from 50 years ago. 

[aintforever]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

That doesn't mean you were racist, simply that societal norms have changed from 50 years ago. 

Societal norms that were racist.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Societal norms that were racist.

Francis Drake and Walter Raleigh were filthy racists. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

Francis Drake and Walter Raleigh were filthy racists. 

According to Channel 5 Queen Elizabeth the First's mother was black.

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, RedArmy said:

No room for racism and a new gesture = unanimous support from fans. 
 

Taking the knee will cause more and more problems as the season progresses. 

I think this is spot on to be honest.

[East Kent Saint]

7 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You include yourself? You consider yourself to be racist? Weird. 

See above, attitudes were different when we were at school in the 60s/70s , what you could read in the papers then were totally different and would be considered pretty racist now . So I’ve moved on from then was my point .

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

According to Channel 5 Queen Elizabeth the First's mother was black.

Well if its on Channel Five then I doubt anyone will question its credibility. 

In all seriousness though, you can't simply look back in history and then apply societal norms and values onto figures from a different time. By that logic virtually every single person in England who encountered a black person before 1900 was a racist and should be condemned. It's childish and foolish. Yes there were things said and done a generation ago that would be considered racist now but it needs to be set in the proper context of the time. There may be things that aintforever does now that in 20 years would be deemed unacceptably racist. Should he be branded a racist in the future if that is the case? 

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, Saint86 said:

I think this is spot on to be honest.

I don't think it will. I think eventually people will just ignore it. Some lower league clubs there will be some booing and maybe some banning orders, the media will hype up the boos and call all the fans racist but ultimately they will keep going for a while until mings, Rashford and their PR company come out with a new organisation for black quotas on the FA board and in management and then they will announce that the kneeling has been a great success and they can stop it now. 

[aintforever]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

There may be things that aintforever does now that in 20 years would be deemed unacceptably racist. Should he be branded a racist in the future if that is the case? 

If it is racist then of course. My Nan was brilliant, she was my hero, survived the blitz in London, lived an amazing life. She had racist views though, like many old people.

 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Well if its on Channel Five then I doubt anyone will question its credibility. 

In all seriousness though, you can't simply look back in history and then apply societal norms and values onto figures from a different time. By that logic virtually every single person in England who encountered a black person before 1900 was a racist and should be condemned. It's childish and foolish. Yes there were things said and done a generation ago that would be considered racist now but it needs to be set in the proper context of the time.

I entirely agree.

[Daft Kerplunk]

Black lives do indeed matter. Happy for players to take the knee if there is still a societal problem with racist bias. Which, there clearly is. Nothing Marxist about it. Just purely and simply people wanting to be treated fairly, justly, and most importantly like fellow human beings. No racism (covert or overt) then no problem and nobody would need to take the knee and BLM would happily say that their goal has been achieved. Maybe everyone falling over themselves to say they aren’t racist and think that taking the knee is lefty political nonsense should do more to make sure there isn’t racism in the world, or at least on the UK. No racism, no need to take the knee. If I was a player and I’m white, I’d support my fellow team mates and their cause until meaningful change happens. Having a problem with people taking a knee suggests you have a problem with people trying to feel they are treated respectfully as human beings. That’s not my problem but one for people to ponder when responding to players who have suffered racism deciding enough is enough. 

[hypochondriac]

11 minutes ago, aintforever said:

If it is racist then of course. My Nan was brilliant, she was my hero, survived the blitz in London, lived an amazing life. She had racist views though, like many old people.

 

So virtually every white person that encountered a black person prior to 1900 was a racist then? 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

Black lives do indeed matter. Happy for players to take the knee if there is still a societal problem with racist bias. Which, there clearly is. Nothing Marxist about it. Just purely and simply people wanting to be treated fairly, justly, and most importantly like fellow human beings. No racism (covert or overt) then no problem and nobody would need to take the knee and BLM would happily say that their goal has been achieved. Maybe everyone falling over themselves to say they aren’t racist and think that taking the knee is lefty political nonsense should do more to make sure there isn’t racism in the world, or at least on the UK. No racism, no need to take the knee. If I was a player and I’m white, I’d support my fellow team mates and their cause until meaningful change happens. Having a problem with people taking a knee suggests you have a problem with people trying to feel they are treated respectfully as human beings. That’s not my problem but one for people to ponder when responding to players who have suffered racism deciding enough is enough. 

What more should I do to make sure there isn't racism in the world? It's an idealistic fantasy world ti pretend that racism is going to be eliminated. It's like saying we are going to protest against physical violence until all physical violence is eliminated. It's absurd. 

[SaintsLoyal]

2 hours ago, John B said:

No it is not taking the knee was started by an American Footballer to highlight how badly BAME people are treated in the USA and has been carried on the UK to highlight the similar treatment that they suffer in the UK

 

That was years ago.  all do with the yank killing the mush with knee on neck.

 

Its a submissive act and related to the violent far left group BLM

 

 

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

So virtually every white person that encountered a black person prior to 1900 was a racist then? 

Yes precisely, you've nailed it! Now get on your knees and apologise for Britain.

But whatever you do, please don't look at the government as it quietly makes personal transport and home heating unaffordable for the average person, kills off whole industries whilst transferring huge debt onto the taxpayer etc. Because that isn't important. What's really important is that the person next to you is different and therefore bad.

Edited 3 August, 2021 by Saint86

[hypochondriac]

Just now, Saint86 said:

Yes precisely, you've nailed it! Now get on your knees and apologise for the history of Britain.

But whatever you do, please don't look at the government as it quietly makes personal transport and home heating unaffordable for the average person, kills off whole industries whilst transferring huge debt onto the taxpayer, and threatens to bring in digital papers to control your societal, educational, employment, and entertainment access and keep you in line. Because that shit isn't important. What's really important is that the person next to you is different and therefore bad, and that means you need to keep fighting against them at all costs to champion your own cause - because they're the ones oppressing you 🙄.

Seek help. 

[SaintsLoyal]

All this racist stuff has yet again been totally blown out of proportion 

The post england defeat saw something like 6 arrests from millions of social media users.

Most online football racism comes from abroad.

You wont stop racism getting on a knee, its comical.

I feel sorry for all the asians.

 

[SaintsLoyal]

2 hours ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Are you completely insensitive and devoid of any empathatic human feelings towards others?

This is one of the most crass and distressing posts I've ever seen on here. Shame on you

American crime has eff all to do with this country.

I dread to think how many people have been murdered in yank land last year.

 

[Daft Kerplunk]

9 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What more should I do to make sure there isn't racism in the world? It's an idealistic fantasy world ti pretend that racism is going to be eliminated. It's like saying we are going to protest against physical violence until all physical violence is eliminated. It's absurd. 

Not worrying about players taking a knee and acknowledging the reasons why is a start for many. If you’re not racist then there should be no problem with anyone taking a knee because it is not political, it’s about wanting respect and being treated as a human being. That isn’t much to ask really. I’m with my fellow human beings in wanting to be treated well and not judged on the colour of their skin. 

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, SaintTex said:

I understand where you are coming from - reasonable people, with their heart in the right place, can disagree whether kneeling is pointless or unhelpful. I tend to believe a weekly reminder is helpful. You think differently, and that is fine.

Whether it is or isn't, those brief 15 seconds of the match day certainly don't inconvenience the average supporter over the course of 2 hours, so it hardly seems worth arguing over.

 

Absolutely right. It’s over in seconds so why make a big deal about it and why does it bother some so much? Those who suffer abuse first hand feel that it is worthwhile and it is certainly better than doing nothing. It’s amazing that people spend so much time out of their life complaining about something they say they say is inconsequential. The fact that it is still winding these people up shows that it is still having an effect. Why on Earth would people who claim not to have an issue with racism spend so much time and effort complaining about those protesting about racism? It really is very strange.

[hypochondriac]

31 minutes ago, Daft Kerplunk said:

Not worrying about players taking a knee and acknowledging the reasons why is a start for many. If you’re not racist then there should be no problem with anyone taking a knee because it is not political, it’s about wanting respect and being treated as a human being. That isn’t much to ask really. I’m with my fellow human beings in wanting to be treated well and not judged on the colour of their skin. 

Neither of those two things will do anything to "end racism." Besides, I've said on a number of occasions that I've never booed any players but that I support the right of supporters who pay to go to matches to do so. I don't need to go over the circular arguments about the knee again as its been done to death but I would be interested to know what individuals should be doing to "end racism." If everyone did what you suggested and was fully supportive of the knee it still wouldn't end racism so you're incorrect to suggest that my support for the knee would make any difference at all. 

[badgerx16]

How long does the 'taking a knee' continue for. Does it go into the 2022/23 season, or the one after that ? When will we know that the changes it requires have been made ?

[hypochondriac]

5 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

How long does the 'taking a knee' continue for. Does it go into the 2022/23 season, or the one after that ? When will we know that the changes it requires have been made ?

I've made my prediction. At some point they will need a plan for a graceful retreat. There will be a new organisation set up led by the likes of Mings, Rashford, Henderson and their PR agencies with a catchy name like Take The Knee Inc lobbying for more black people on the FA board and more black managers. They'll probably get a diversity officer in like June Sarpong on £250k a year to tell the FA where they're going wrong. Once that's up and running they can call taking the knee a success and stop it whilst claiming victory. Mark my words. 

Edited 3 August, 2021 by hypochondriac

[egg]

36 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Why on Earth would people who claim not to have an issue with racism spend so much time and effort complaining about those protesting about racism? It really is very strange.

You still don't get it. Objective people can see that this particular protest isn't working, or even helping. Comments in this thread, and others like it, prove that. I don't have an issue with the knee, I just can't see the point of doing something that isn't doing any good. 

A lot of people also think it a shame that players and clubs feel compelled to do this. I've heard it from the horses mouth. Hypochondriac has said the same above. If anyone doubts that players don't have a choice in this, just look at Brentford. Last season they (probably the most inclusive club btw) decided that this was a load of bollox and ditched it. This season, they're joining in. 

[Miltonaggro]

1 hour ago, Manuel said:

I thought they might have moved on to a different social goal for this season.  Climate change perhaps or LBGT rights.

The problem is how do you capture those issues in a suitable dignified pose for 10 seconds before kick-off.  You don't want to weaken the message to the masses by turning it into a psuedo-political hokey-cokey.  

[Saint_clark]

5 minutes ago, Miltonaggro said:

The problem is how do you capture those issues in a suitable dignified pose for 10 seconds before kick-off.  You don't want to weaken the message to the masses by turning it into a psuedo-political hokey-cokey.  

LGBT rights is an easy one for 11 men to symbolise to be fair, and as a further bonus it only really requires one of them to be on their knees. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, Saint_clark said:

LGBT rights is an easy one for 11 men to symbolise to be fair, and as a further bonus it only really requires one of them to be on their knees. 

You could stick Ings in a dress before kickoff too TBF. 

[Turkish]

55 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Absolutely right. It’s over in seconds so why make a big deal about it and why does it bother some so much? Those who suffer abuse first hand feel that it is worthwhile and it is certainly better than doing nothing. It’s amazing that people spend so much time out of their life complaining about something they say they say is inconsequential. The fact that it is still winding these people up shows that it is still having an effect. Why on Earth would people who claim not to have an issue with racism spend so much time and effort complaining about those protesting about racism? It really is very strange.

What is strange is standing at the end of your drive in March and April evenings applauding the NHS week after week, then admitting the only reason you did it was a chance to see your neighbours. That’s the sort of guy you are, all about the outward displays of piety.

[Turkish]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

I expect they are only carrying on with it because of the few Gammon buckle-draggers who booed and bell-ends like Turkish who try and make out it’s something it’s not.

Good on them, wether the problem in this country is bad or not it’s an undoubtedly good cause.

They’re talking about you aintclever 

[Weston Super Saint]

10 hours ago, Turkish said:

They’re talking about you aintclever 

Much easier to post bollocks on a football forum claiming everyone else is a racist than confront an actual racist in real life...

#silenceisviolence

[skintsaint]