Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 17 minutes ago, aintforever said: Definitely. Definitely what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 10 minutes ago, Turkish said: Definitely what? Making a positive impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 1 minute ago, aintforever said: Making a positive impact. What has been the positive impact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 6 minutes ago, Turkish said: What has been the positive impact? It highlights the issue and instigates conversations - how can that be a bad thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 October, 2021 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2021 40 minutes ago, Turkish said: What has been the positive impact? Garth Crooks keeps his Team of the Week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, aintforever said: It highlights the issue and instigates conversations - how can that be a bad thing? So still banging the "it raises awareness" drum then, brilliant. All it's done is tell us something we know exists, exists. Edited 13 October, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 3 minutes ago, whelk said: Garth Crooks keeps his Team of the Week. that surely is one of the major negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 Heartwarming footage of hooliganism at Wembley last night. Refreshing to see it return to our terraces - albeit regrettably not by home grown fans - highlighting our emasculated, simpering society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 2 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: It highlights the issue and instigates conversations. So in my opinion it's working. That may make some people double down and provoke incidents, but one would suspect that they are the higher hanging fruits. I highlighted the issue that the flooring needed replacing in our hallway, which instigated a discussion. Flooring still needs to be replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holmes_and_Watson Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 Remember that, as we join the Replace Flooring campaign, you might want to consider knee pads. It's not quick, can be a lot of hard work and quite wearing. Like something else... nope, it's gone...🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 2 minutes ago, Holmes_and_Watson said: Remember that, as we join the Replace Flooring campaign, you might want to consider knee pads. It's not quick, can be a lot of hard work and quite wearing. Like something else... nope, it's gone...🙂 I think you've got your threads muddled up. This is the one where issues can be highlighted and discussed and the whole world will be rosy, without anyone actually doing anything. Besides, if you think I'm doing the manual labour bit of the floor replacing you need your head read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 40 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: I highlighted the issue that the flooring needed replacing in our hallway, which instigated a discussion. Flooring still needs to be replaced. Grows some balls and get someone in, the wife will like the new manly you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: I think you've got your threads muddled up. This is the one where issues can be highlighted and discussed and the whole world will be rosy, without anyone actually doing anything. Besides, if you think I'm doing the manual labour bit of the floor replacing you need your head read. I’m glad they’re taking the knee. I’d never even heard of racism until last year. It’s great they’re doing this to make us all aware and so we can discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: I think you've got your threads muddled up. This is the one where issues can be highlighted and discussed and the whole world will be rosy, without anyone actually doing anything. Besides, if you think I'm doing the manual labour bit of the floor replacing you need your head read. How do you think things move forward? They do by influencing public opinions, law changes are normally years after and always on catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 2 hours ago, aintforever said: It highlights the issue and instigates conversations - how can that be a bad thing? Instigates conversations that has led to people feeling more divided on racial lines than they were before if we are to believe the surveys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 3 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: It highlights the issue and instigates conversations. So in my opinion it's working. That may make some people double down and provoke incidents, but one would suspect that they are the higher hanging fruits. What's the goal then? Its working in what way? Because the surveys on the matter suggest that racial relations have been made worse by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 14 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: How do you think things move forward? They do by influencing public opinions, law changes are normally years after and always on catch up. And taking the knee has influenced public opinion in a positive way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 24 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: How do you think things move forward? They do by influencing public opinions, law changes are normally years after and always on catch up. Influencing what opinions? How do the opinions of right minded people non racists need to be influenced? Is this campaign going to influence racists to not be racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 All we need now is Lord D and the whole gang is here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 All we need now is Soggy and the whole gang is here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 2 hours ago, adrian lord said: Heartwarming footage of hooliganism at Wembley last night. Refreshing to see it return to our terraces - albeit regrettably not by home grown fans - highlighting our emasculated, simpering society. Don't forget the emasculated, simpering police force, who seemed to swiftly retreat from a bunch of unarmed men. Apparently they wanted the no-kneeling banner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 7 minutes ago, egg said: Influencing what opinions? How do the opinions of right minded people non racists need to be influenced? Is this campaign going to influence racists to not be racist? Well if you consider opinions on a subject are on a spectrum, then if these opinions are influenced then some people will shift along the spectrum. It's quite simple really. It's a given fact that attitudes on millions of things have changed over time, like the EU was just a topic for pub bores like Lord D ten years ago now everyone has an opinion on it. That didn't come out of no where, but by groups lobbying and using social media to shift people along the opinion arc. We are bombarded by messages, some relevant, some not and most people just ignore the irrelevant ones. So what's the problem with this message that has got so many people wound up. Are some messages are not allowed, or some groups not allowed to make them. Is it right that people can't ask for change because it may trigger others to act in a worse way. If like everyone on this thread thinks that racism is wrong, then what really is the problem here. It's just kneeling, it's just a message, it's no big deal. If the message means nothing to you that's fine, just let it be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 33 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: All we need now is Lord D and the whole gang is here. 24 minutes ago, Turkish said: All we need now is Soggy and the whole gang is here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 3 hours ago, Turkish said: So still banging the "it raises awareness" drum then, brilliant. All it's done is tell us something we know exists, exists. He says, discussing the subject on a thread that would exist if football players didn’t take the knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 32 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: Well if you consider opinions on a subject are on a spectrum, then if these opinions are influenced then some people will shift along the spectrum. It's quite simple really. It's a given fact that attitudes on millions of things have changed over time, like the EU was just a topic for pub bores like Lord D ten years ago now everyone has an opinion on it. That didn't come out of no where, but by groups lobbying and using social media to shift people along the opinion arc. We are bombarded by messages, some relevant, some not and most people just ignore the irrelevant ones. So what's the problem with this message that has got so many people wound up. Are some messages are not allowed, or some groups not allowed to make them. Is it right that people can't ask for change because it may trigger others to act in a worse way. If like everyone on this thread thinks that racism is wrong, then what really is the problem here. It's just kneeling, it's just a message, it's no big deal. If the message means nothing to you that's fine, just let it be. What's your evidence that taking the knee has influenced people to be less racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 32 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: Well if you consider opinions on a subject are on a spectrum, then if these opinions are influenced then some people will shift along the spectrum. It's quite simple really. It's a given fact that attitudes on millions of things have changed over time, like the EU was just a topic for pub bores like Lord D ten years ago now everyone has an opinion on it. That didn't come out of no where, but by groups lobbying and using social media to shift people along the opinion arc. We are bombarded by messages, some relevant, some not and most people just ignore the irrelevant ones. So what's the problem with this message that has got so many people wound up. Are some messages are not allowed, or some groups not allowed to make them. Is it right that people can't ask for change because it may trigger others to act in a worse way. If like everyone on this thread thinks that racism is wrong, then what really is the problem here. It's just kneeling, it's just a message, it's no big deal. If the message means nothing to you that's fine, just let it be. For me it's no more complex than this action has achieved nothing positive, and never will. I'm not persuaded by your shifting along the spectrum point - I'm struggling with the concept that racists can be shifted from their ideology by footballers taking the knee. In short - lovely idea, but ultimately a counterproductive one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 4 hours ago, aintforever said: It highlights the issue and instigates conversations - how can that be a bad thing? I don't agree that there was an issue to be highlighted. Racism exists. We know that. The issue is what is the solution, if there is one. The conversation has come down to some people believing that the knee is part of the solution, and others feeling that it ain't working and won't. We then people saying that all of those who can see that it ain't working must be racists. That's a sad fall out from a well intended thing, and that is a bad thing. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 1 minute ago, egg said: I don't agree that there was an issue to be highlighted. Racism exists. We know that. The issue is what is the solution, if there is one. The conversation has come down to some people believing that the knee is part of the solution, and others feeling that it ain't working and won't. We then people saying that all of those who can see that it ain't working must be racists. That's a sad fall out from a well intended thing, and that is a bad thing. Great Post. That's the issue exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 1 hour ago, aintforever said: He says, discussing the subject on a thread that would exist if football players didn’t take the knee. Once again you spectacularly fail to grasp the point. You’re funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 44 minutes ago, egg said: I don't agree that there was an issue to be highlighted. Racism exists. We know that. The issue is what is the solution, if there is one. The conversation has come down to some people believing that the knee is part of the solution, and others feeling that it ain't working and won't. We then people saying that all of those who can see that it ain't working must be racists. That's a sad fall out from a well intended thing, and that is a bad thing. That’s exactly what the issue is. spot on. Even the biggest cheerleaders like aintclever only really champion it’s success by clinging onto the claim it raises awareness. Almost like no one knew racism exists without it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 October, 2021 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2021 (edited) 55 minutes ago, egg said: I don't agree that there was an issue to be highlighted. Racism exists. We know that. The issue is what is the solution, if there is one. The conversation has come down to some people believing that the knee is part of the solution, and others feeling that it ain't working and won't. We then people saying that all of those who can see that it ain't working must be racists. That's a sad fall out from a well intended thing, and that is a bad thing. Disagree and the branding of racist won’t be at people who say it isnt working. Like Toney and Zaha for instance. I have said many times I think the knee thing has run it’s course as a gesture. However it is apparent that it really winds up some and it is odd how roused they get. Imagine being the sad Hungarian twat making a cloth sign. I’m sure he is just getting frustrated at the highlighting and doesn’t have a racist bone in his body. Edited 13 October, 2021 by whelk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 5 minutes ago, whelk said: Disagree and the branding of racist won’t be at people who say it isnt working. Like Toney and Zaha for instance. I have said many times I think the knee thing has run it’s course as a gesture. However it is apparent that it really winds up some and it is odd how roused they get. Imagine being the sad Hungarian twat making a cloth sign. I’m sure he is just getting frustrated at the highlighting and doesn’t have a racist bone in his body. I have no doubt that many of those Hungarian twats are racist, and their reaction to the knee has exposed them for what they are. That achieves nothing though. The branding is out there, and it's been in here. Zaha, Toney et al highlight the stupidity of that branding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 13 October, 2021 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2021 John Barnes always worth listening to on the subject https://news.sky.com/story/footballers-taking-the-knee-isnt-going-to-change-anything-says-ex-england-star-so-whats-the-future-of-the-protest-12432154 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, whelk said: John Barnes always worth listening to on the subject https://news.sky.com/story/footballers-taking-the-knee-isnt-going-to-change-anything-says-ex-england-star-so-whats-the-future-of-the-protest-12432154 How can this be? I thought we were told told it was “definitely making a positive impact”. Yet the players, who we were assured are absolutely behind it and not told to do it, don’t seem to think it’s doing anything. Edited 13 October, 2021 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 2 hours ago, egg said: For me it's no more complex than this action has achieved nothing positive, and never will. I'm not persuaded by your shifting along the spectrum point - I'm struggling with the concept that racists can be shifted from their ideology by footballers taking the knee. In short - lovely idea, but ultimately a counterproductive one. Of course the range of views on anything is more nuanced then one camp or another, there are countless points between x and y. If things are nuanced then it's a given that they are fluid. By saying it could be counterproductive you are agreeing that the act can have a negative affect, if that's the case it must also be able to have a positive affect. I still can't see why people are annoyed by it, it's like getting annoyed by Pudsey. Anyway we will have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle04 Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 27 minutes ago, Turkish said: How can this be? I thought we were told told it was “definitely making a positive impact”. Yet the players, who we were assured are absolutely behind it and not told to do it, don’t seem to think it’s doing anything. The PL is about money, nothing else. Just start with that caveat and the rest will fall into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said: Of course the range of views on anything is more nuanced then one camp or another, there are countless points between x and y. If things are nuanced then it's a given that they are fluid. By saying it could be counterproductive you are agreeing that the act can have a negative affect, if that's the case it must also be able to have a positive affect. I still can't see why people are annoyed by it, it's like getting annoyed by Pudsey. Anyway we will have to agree to disagree. Yes it is possible for it to have a positive effect. Polls however have suggested the opposite. You believe it has had a positive effect but have yet to provide evidence for that claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 13 October, 2021 Share Posted 13 October, 2021 9 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: It highlights the issue and instigates conversations. So in my opinion it's working. That may make some people double down and provoke incidents, but one would suspect that they are the higher hanging fruits. The problem with that is that the high hanging fruit is basically what’s left. Instead of trying to reach that we’ve got people picking the rotten stuff off the floor and making a sh*tty crumble with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 13 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: How do you think things move forward? They do by influencing public opinions, law changes are normally years after and always on catch up. Law changes? Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it looks like you are expecting footballers kneeling for a bit before a football match to result in law changes regarding racism. 1. Don't we already have very well defined laws regarding racism, with penalties in place for those who digress? 2. What laws are you expecting to be changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 13 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: Grows some balls and get someone in, the wife will like the new manly you. Turns out the conversation is far more nuanced than that and has spectrums and everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warriorsaint Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 17 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: Point of order bruv, they are not my words, you've cocked up your quoting. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 10 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: .....it's like getting annoyed by Pudsey. Don't get me started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 9 hours ago, hypochondriac said: Yes it is possible for it to have a positive effect. Polls however have suggested the opposite. You believe it has had a positive effect but have yet to provide evidence for that claim. It's funny how every time anyone pro taking the knee gets asked to back up why they think it's having a positive impact they respond with two things, it's raising awareness, like no one knew racism existed before. Or the Soggy take which is to get all preachy and start banging on about it if you're not for it you're racist, why would anyone be against something that is anti racism. None of them can actually point to any examples of a positive impact. Plenty of examples of how it's increased racial tension and created division though in a way no other anti racism campaign at football has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said: Law changes? Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it looks like you are expecting footballers kneeling for a bit before a football match to result in law changes regarding racism. 1. Don't we already have very well defined laws regarding racism, with penalties in place for those who digress? 2. What laws are you expecting to be changed? Yes you are, that's what you do. My simple point is that public opinion is generally years ahead of governance, abortion, divorce, gay marriage. Public health is probably the area where people have to be dragged along, smoking, obesity, drinking and thats why its differicult to change things in this area. I'll give you one law, online anonymity I would love that to change, says the bloke not actually called Fan the Flames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said: Turns out the conversation is far more nuanced than that and has spectrums and everything. You want to direct that fiestiness to your wife, she might let you get your new flooring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 1 hour ago, badgerx16 said: Don't get me started. He is a little bit of a twat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 7 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: Yes you are, that's what you do. My simple point is that public opinion is generally years ahead of governance, abortion, divorce, gay marriage. Public health is probably the area where people have to be dragged along, smoking, obesity, drinking and thats why its differicult to change things in this area. I'll give you one law, online anonymity I would love that to change, says the bloke not actually called Fan the Flames. Law in what country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 7 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: Law in what country? Well we can only change the law in this country! Yes I know the internet has no borders etc. Don't you think the world would be a better place if we are not all shouting at each other from behind masks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 16 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: Well we can only change the law in this country! Yes I know the internet has no borders etc. Don't you think the world would be a better place if we are not all shouting at each other from behind masks. So, your proposal is entirely beyond reality. Agree with your second point, maybe you should practice what you preach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 14 October, 2021 Share Posted 14 October, 2021 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: So, your proposal is entirely beyond reality. Agree with your second point, maybe you should practice what you preach? I think I keep myself in check most of the time with most posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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