Taking the knee

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

  On 14/10/2021 at 08:21, Turkish said:

It's funny how every time anyone pro taking the knee gets asked to back up why they think it's having a positive impact they respond with two things, it's raising awareness, like no one knew racism existed before. Or the Soggy take which is to get all preachy and start banging on about it if you're not for it you're racist, why would anyone be against something that is anti racism. None of them can actually point to any examples of a positive impact. Plenty of examples of how it's increased racial tension and created division though in a way no other anti racism campaign at football has.

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My personal view is that the action of players and staff taking a knee before each game is a positive and beneficial gesture. This is for the following reasons:

1. It has created a better dialogue surrounding the issue. Previous gestures and campaigns have been present, but often overlooked by the mainstream media. For example, the "Racism ain't Saintly" campaign, which many will be familiar with, gained little traction.  This gesture of taking the knee has opened the dialogue. Now, more than ever, people are discussing the issue of racism within football and the ways it can be addressed and minimised. It has drawn attention to the topic and that is a positive. 

2. It has raised awareness. Yes people knew racism existed before (both in society in general and in football particularly) but there is now a more open understanding of the racism players are facing. More often than previously racist comments online are being policed, racist chants are being condemned publicly and the stories of players being racially abused are being told. I understand if you were already aware of racism in football, then this may not have made a difference to you personally, but for some this will have.

3. It directly calls out and condemns racists. That in itself is something that makes the gesture worthwhile.

You say that the gesture has "increased racial tension". I would like to please know why you think this? Racial tension was already a problem long before players started taking the knee (the abuse Sterling has received throughout his career highlights this), and has been for generations (only today the BBC are running a story on Laurie Cunningham which details that, as one of the first black players to represent England he was subject to racist abuse).

Taking the knee will not end racism in football, and no gesture could ever be expected to do so, but it does about a conversation regarding an issue in football and society that does need dealing with.

[Dorchester Saint]

  On 13/10/2021 at 11:37, aintforever said:

Exactly. That's what I was saying to the fuck-wit from Dorchester.

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Triggered much!! 🤣🤣

I’m not from Dorchester, I’m from Hedge End. 

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 09:03, Fan The Flames said:

Yes you are, that's what you do. My simple point is that public opinion is generally years ahead of governance, abortion, divorce, gay marriage. Public health is probably the area where people have to be dragged along, smoking, obesity, drinking and thats why its differicult to change things in this area.

I'll give you one law, online anonymity I would love that to change, says the bloke not actually called Fan the Flames.

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I'm sure the persecuted and whistle blowers throughout the world would welcome your stance on the removal of online anonymity. 

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 10:02, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

My personal view is that the action of players and staff taking a knee before each game is a positive and beneficial gesture. This is for the following reasons:

1. It has created a better dialogue surrounding the issue. Previous gestures and campaigns have been present, but often overlooked by the mainstream media. For example, the "Racism ain't Saintly" campaign, which many will be familiar with, gained little traction.  This gesture of taking the knee has opened the dialogue. Now, more than ever, people are discussing the issue of racism within football and the ways it can be addressed and minimised. It has drawn attention to the topic and that is a positive. 

2. It has raised awareness. Yes people knew racism existed before (both in society in general and in football particularly) but there is now a more open understanding of the racism players are facing. More often than previously racist comments online are being policed, racist chants are being condemned publicly and the stories of players being racially abused are being told. I understand if you were already aware of racism in football, then this may not have made a difference to you personally, but for some this will have.

3. It directly calls out and condemns racists. That in itself is something that makes the gesture worthwhile.

You say that the gesture has "increased racial tension". I would like to please know why you think this? Racial tension was already a problem long before players started taking the knee (the abuse Sterling has received throughout his career highlights this), and has been for generations (only today the BBC are running a story on Laurie Cunningham which details that, as one of the first black players to represent England he was subject to racist abuse).

Taking the knee will not end racism in football, and no gesture could ever be expected to do so, but it does about a conversation regarding an issue in football and society that does need dealing with.

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I say that it has raised racial tensions because that is what the polling tells us. There's clear evidence to say that is the case. 

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 10:02, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

My personal view is that the action of players and staff taking a knee before each game is a positive and beneficial gesture. This is for the following reasons:

1. It has created a better dialogue surrounding the issue. Previous gestures and campaigns have been present, but often overlooked by the mainstream media. For example, the "Racism ain't Saintly" campaign, which many will be familiar with, gained little traction.  This gesture of taking the knee has opened the dialogue. Now, more than ever, people are discussing the issue of racism within football and the ways it can be addressed and minimised. It has drawn attention to the topic and that is a positive. 

2. It has raised awareness. Yes people knew racism existed before (both in society in general and in football particularly) but there is now a more open understanding of the racism players are facing. More often than previously racist comments online are being policed, racist chants are being condemned publicly and the stories of players being racially abused are being told. I understand if you were already aware of racism in football, then this may not have made a difference to you personally, but for some this will have.

3. It directly calls out and condemns racists. That in itself is something that makes the gesture worthwhile.

You say that the gesture has "increased racial tension". I would like to please know why you think this? Racial tension was already a problem long before players started taking the knee (the abuse Sterling has received throughout his career highlights this), and has been for generations (only today the BBC are running a story on Laurie Cunningham which details that, as one of the first black players to represent England he was subject to racist abuse).

Taking the knee will not end racism in football, and no gesture could ever be expected to do so, but it does about a conversation regarding an issue in football and society that does need dealing with.

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I say that it has raised racial tensions because that is what the polling tells us. There's clear evidence to say that is the case. 

[Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan]

  On 14/10/2021 at 11:11, hypochondriac said:

I say that it has raised racial tensions because that is what the polling tells us. There's clear evidence to say that is the case. 

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I wasn't asking you, I was asking Turkish, hence the reply to him, but thank you.

Which poll are you referring to here, I haven't seen a poll regarding the increase in racial tensions caused by the taking a knee gesture so would appreciate you directing me to it. 

[Fan The Flames]

  On 14/10/2021 at 11:01, hypochondriac said:

I'm sure the persecuted and whistle blowers throughout the world would welcome your stance on the removal of online anonymity. 

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That's a good point, things are never easy are they.

[Turkish]

  On 14/10/2021 at 11:15, Fabrice Fernandes no.1 fan said:

I wasn't asking you, I was asking Turkish, hence the reply to him, but thank you.

Which poll are you referring to here, I haven't seen a poll regarding the increase in racial tensions caused by the taking a knee gesture so would appreciate you directing me to it. 

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Not that difficult to find some views on this even this forums favourite source of news reported it Black Lives Matter has increased racial tension, 55% say in UK poll | Black Lives Matter movement | The Guardian

It's pretty clear it has increased racial tension. In 35 years following football i've never heard an anti racism gesture booed before, that alone should get people asking why this is the case. Instead of that all we get is accusations of racism if you dont agree with it. 

As for your other two points again it goes back to awareness, this is all people are clinging too. Taking the knee raises awareness. Yes it does but it certainly appears that it's raising the wrong sort of awareness, it's divisive and increasing tension so having the reverse impact of the intention. 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 14/10/2021 at 09:03, Fan The Flames said:

Yes you are, that's what you do. My simple point is that public opinion is generally years ahead of governance, abortion, divorce, gay marriage. Public health is probably the area where people have to be dragged along, smoking, obesity, drinking and thats why its differicult to change things in this area.

I'll give you one law, online anonymity I would love that to change, says the bloke not actually called Fan the Flames.

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Hhhmmm.  So I'm reading too much into it, because apparently that's 'what I do' and yet, by your own admission, you really do want footballers kneeling down for a few seconds to instigate a change in the law.

I'd hazard a guess that if you really are committed to changing the online anonymity laws then there would be far more effective ways to do that than getting football involved.  

[aintforever]

  On 14/10/2021 at 11:53, Turkish said:

Not that difficult to find some views on this even this forums favourite source of news reported it Black Lives Matter has increased racial tension, 55% say in UK poll | Black Lives Matter movement | The Guardian

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That article doesn't once mention football or taking the knee - which survey says footballers taking the knee raises racial tensions?

[Fan The Flames]

  On 14/10/2021 at 12:09, Weston Super Saint said:

Hhhmmm.  So I'm reading too much into it, because apparently that's 'what I do' and yet, by your own admission, you really do want footballers kneeling down for a few seconds to instigate a change in the law.

I'd hazard a guess that if you really are committed to changing the online anonymity laws then there would be far more effective ways to do that than getting football involved.  

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I think we're done here mate.

[Turkish]

  On 14/10/2021 at 12:24, aintforever said:

That article doesn't once mention football or taking the knee - which survey says footballers taking the knee raises racial tensions?

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Oh of course, black lives matter was NOTHING to do with taking the knee in the premier league 

 

 

 

[aintforever]

  On 14/10/2021 at 12:39, Turkish said:

Oh of course, black lives matter was NOTHING to do with taking the knee in the premier league 

 

 

 

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We all know there is a link, but that survey was about the protests and riots after a black man was murdered by the police - of course tensions were raised. 

Where was the survey saying footballers taking the knee raised tensions? - I would genuinely want to read it.

[Turkish]

  On 14/10/2021 at 12:45, aintforever said:

We all know there is a link, but that survey was about the protests and riots after a black man was murdered by the police - of course tensions were raised. 

Where was the survey saying footballers taking the knee raised tensions? - I would genuinely want to read it.

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The survey was November last year, 6 months after George Floyd died. Proof that the BLM movement, which was plastered all over our TV screens before and during every football match for months, has had the reverse impact that they claim they wanted. We all know there is a link, glad you're finally admitting it. Have you ever heard booing of an anti racism message at football before the knee?

[aintforever]

  On 14/10/2021 at 12:59, Turkish said:

 Have you ever heard booing of an anti racism message at football before the knee?

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No, because all the 'Kick it out" stuff went largely unnoticed making it irrelevant - which is one of the reasons for the taking of the knee.

A few people booing at football is nothing to do with racial tensions, it's just a bunch of Gammons getting all upset over 'wokeness'. No one is going to turn into a racist just because a few footballers make a harmless gesture. Anyone even slightly bothered by it must already have issues.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 14/10/2021 at 13:30, aintforever said:

No, because all the 'Kick it out" stuff went largely unnoticed making it irrelevant - which is one of the reasons for the taking of the knee.

A few people booing at football is nothing to do with racial tensions, it's just a bunch of Gammons getting all upset over 'wokeness'. No one is going to turn into a racist just because a few footballers make a harmless gesture. Anyone even slightly bothered by it must already have issues.

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And yet you firmly believe the opposite is true 

Edited 14 October, 2021 by Weston Super Saint

[Turkish]

  On 14/10/2021 at 13:30, aintforever said:

No, because all the 'Kick it out" stuff went largely unnoticed making it irrelevant - which is one of the reasons for the taking of the knee.

A few people booing at football is nothing to do with racial tensions, it's just a bunch of Gammons getting all upset over 'wokeness'. No one is going to turn into a racist just because a few footballers make a harmless gesture. Anyone even slightly bothered by it must already have issues.

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And there we have it. Anyone who doesn't agree with it is dismissed as a gammon, anyone who doesnt agree with it must have issues. And you agree then, you've never heard booing for any other anti racism campaign. You claim no one will become a racist due to taking the knee, but also claim it's working, it's making a positive impact, it's not divisive and ignore all the evidence to the contrary. As usual, you're all over the place and doing exactly what has been said, dismissing anyone who doesn't support it. 

Edited 14 October, 2021 by Turkish

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 11:30, Fan The Flames said:

That's a good point, things are never easy are they.

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Fair enough mate I wasn't expecting such a genial reply. 

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 13:30, aintforever said:

No, because all the 'Kick it out" stuff went largely unnoticed making it irrelevant - which is one of the reasons for the taking of the knee.

A few people booing at football is nothing to do with racial tensions, it's just a bunch of Gammons getting all upset over 'wokeness'. No one is going to turn into a racist just because a few footballers make a harmless gesture. Anyone even slightly bothered by it must already have issues.

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What is it about the taking of the knee do you think that is different from other supposed anti racist campaigns at football that has provoked such a markedly different and at times hostile reaction? You'd think that the same fans loudly expressing their opposition would have reacted in a similar manner to other similar campaigns if they were all racist like has been claimed. Why did Millwall fans boo the knee taking and then applaud a separate gesture about tackling racism the following week? 

[whelk]

  On 14/10/2021 at 16:22, hypochondriac said:

What is it about the taking of the knee do you think that is different from other supposed anti racist campaigns at football that has provoked such a markedly different and at times hostile reaction? You'd think that the same fans loudly expressing their opposition would have reacted in a similar manner to other similar campaigns if they were all racist like has been claimed. Why did Millwall fans boo the knee taking and then applaud a separate gesture about tackling racism the following week? 

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Salt of the earth them Millwall boys

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 16:55, whelk said:

Salt of the earth them Millwall boys

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Which clearly wasn't my point as you well know. 

[Verbal]

  On 14/10/2021 at 10:49, Dorchester Saint said:

Triggered much!! 🤣🤣

I’m not from Dorchester, I’m from Hedge End. 

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Too right!  With bells on.

[aintforever]

  On 14/10/2021 at 16:22, hypochondriac said:

What is it about the taking of the knee do you think that is different from other supposed anti racist campaigns at football that has provoked such a markedly different and at times hostile reaction? You'd think that the same fans loudly expressing their opposition would have reacted in a similar manner to other similar campaigns if they were all racist like has been claimed. Why did Millwall fans boo the knee taking and then applaud a separate gesture about tackling racism the following week? 

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The majority of fans have applauded it, as I said before, previous campaigns have been pretty much invisible so barely get noticed. You are bound to get some idiot who boo.

[Manuel]

  On 14/10/2021 at 16:22, hypochondriac said:

What is it about the taking of the knee do you think that is different from other supposed anti racist campaigns at football that has provoked such a markedly different and at times hostile reaction? You'd think that the same fans loudly expressing their opposition would have reacted in a similar manner to other similar campaigns if they were all racist like has been claimed. Why did Millwall fans boo the knee taking and then applaud a separate gesture about tackling racism the following week? 

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I don't want anything when I enter a football ground except football and the crowd.  No music, no fire show, no brass band, no commentator, and no kneeling.  

Would save a few quid too.  

[Turkish]

  On 14/10/2021 at 17:33, aintforever said:

The majority of fans have applauded it, as I said before, previous campaigns have been pretty much invisible so barely get noticed. You are bound to get some idiot who boo.

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[Lighthouse]

  On 14/10/2021 at 17:33, aintforever said:

as I said before, previous campaigns have been pretty much invisible so barely get noticed.

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Previous campaigns have achieved all you can reasonably expect from a slogan or gesture. If you genuinely want to help, go and volunteer at your local youth group, keep kids off the street and out of gangs.

[hypochondriac]

  On 14/10/2021 at 17:33, aintforever said:

The majority of fans have applauded it, as I said before, previous campaigns have been pretty much invisible so barely get noticed. You are bound to get some idiot who boo.

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So in your view, the reason that there weren't boos for something like kick it out is because the fans didn't notice it was happening? Had there been greater awareness of it do you think there would have been boos? 

[Lord Duckhunter]

  On 14/10/2021 at 18:50, hypochondriac said:

So in your view, the reason that there weren't boos for something like kick it out is because the fans didn't notice it was happening? Had there been greater awareness of it do you think there would have been boos? 

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What’s “kick it out”?
 

 

[Warriorsaint]

  On 14/10/2021 at 19:10, Lord Duckhunter said:

What’s “kick it out”?
 

 

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Hows Brexit going?

[badgerx16]

  On 14/10/2021 at 20:46, Warriorsaint said:

Hows Brexit going?

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It has happened. We are now in the post-Brexit world.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 15/10/2021 at 07:33, badgerx16 said:

It has happened. We are now in the post-Brexit world.

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He won't understand unless you can screenshot a tweet of someone else's opinion (but pop it on the Brexit thread if you find one  )

[aintforever]

  On 14/10/2021 at 18:50, hypochondriac said:

So in your view, the reason that there weren't boos for something like kick it out is because the fans didn't notice it was happening? Had there been greater awareness of it do you think there would have been boos? 

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But a few idiots booing because of concerns about a some Marxist takeover is not ‘racial tensions’. It’s people on no particular race booing people of many different races over something political - it’s not setting one particular race against another.

The fact that players and fans who obvious are not Marxists get behind the message just makes it stronger IMO. It shows that despite the possible negative connotations and booing they are still determined to get the anti-racism message across. They are not just hiding away with some pathetic once a season logo on a T-Shirt.

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 15/10/2021 at 08:06, aintforever said:

But a few idiots booing because of concerns about a some Marxist takeover is not ‘racial tensions’. It’s people on no particular race booing people of many different races over something political - it’s not setting one particular race against another.

The fact that players and fans who obvious are not Marxists get behind the message just makes it stronger IMO. It shows that despite the possible negative connotations and booing they are still determined to get the anti-racism message across. They are not just hiding away with some pathetic once a season logo on a T-Shirt.

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Are they 'determined' or are they 'told to' by their clubs for the optics?

[hypochondriac]

  On 15/10/2021 at 08:06, aintforever said:

But a few idiots booing because of concerns about a some Marxist takeover is not ‘racial tensions’. It’s people on no particular race booing people of many different races over something political - it’s not setting one particular race against another.

The fact that players and fans who obvious are not Marxists get behind the message just makes it stronger IMO. It shows that despite the possible negative connotations and booing they are still determined to get the anti-racism message across. They are not just hiding away with some pathetic once a season logo on a T-Shirt.

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So in your mind the only possible reason for anyone to boo is because they are under some delusion about a Marxist takeover? There couldn't be any other reason? 

[Warriorsaint]

  On 15/10/2021 at 07:33, badgerx16 said:

It has happened. We are now in the post-Brexit world.

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Well aware Badger. Seems Duck has opinions in everything but is curiously quiet on this one. 

[Warriorsaint]

Well done Saints, the sooner we get racists out of our ground the better.

https://twitter.com/southamptonfc/status/1449027281771393028?s=21

[Turkish]

  On 15/10/2021 at 16:47, Warriorsaint said:

Well done Saints, the sooner we get racists out of our ground the better.

https://twitter.com/southamptonfc/status/1449027281771393028?s=21

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Agreed. Certainly this is better than meaningless gestures. The message is clear. No need for devise gestures with people desperate to show their approval applauding from the sidelines spell it out, make it clear. Don’t comply you know the consequences. 

[whelk]

Interesting to know what enhanced training for stewards involved? Sent to Californian campus to see all the micro aggressions they need to look out for perhaps?

[Turkish]

I see for the next two weeks we have a no room for racism campaign. So we now have two anti racism campaigns running at the same time. I’m yet to hear any boos or criticism of the no room for racism campaign. In fact It seems very well supported. This surprised me considering the amount of racist gammons that follow football we keep hearing about.

Edited 17 October, 2021 by Turkish

[whelk]

  On 17/10/2021 at 08:22, Turkish said:

I see for the next two weeks we have a no room for racism campaign. So we now have two anti racism campaigns running at the same time. I’m yet to hear any boos or criticism of the no room for racism campaign. In fact It seems very well supported. This surprised me considering the amount of racist gammons that follow football we keep hearing about.

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Too overt. They would struggle to fall back to their line ‘I’m not racist but….’

[hypochondriac]

  On 17/10/2021 at 09:19, whelk said:

Too overt. They would struggle to fall back to their line ‘I’m not racist but….’

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So you think there's some ambiguity attached to the taking of the knee? I thought it was blindingly obvious and anyone who disagreed was a racist? Yet the no room for racism campaign is more clear about what it's aims are? 

 

[whelk]

  On 17/10/2021 at 11:22, hypochondriac said:

So you think there's some ambiguity attached to the taking of the knee? I thought it was blindingly obvious and anyone who disagreed was a racist? Yet the no room for racism campaign is more clear about what it's aims are? 

 

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I think it depends on the reason for the objections. Millwall fans booing, Burnley fans flying banners is quite apparent to me why they are getting worked up. But of course they may be lovely inclusive people worried about police budgets and the rise of Marxism all too willing to support other worthy anti racism campaigns. Of course they will use a line of argument that they aren’t racist. But sorry I don’t need someone explaining why we can’t prove Hungarian Carpathian Brigade are racists when I very much trust my judgment.

To say you are against ‘no to racism’ leaves no doubt where someone stands although equally just a marketing tagline that makes no real difference to changing views.

Edited 17 October, 2021 by whelk

[AlexLaw76]

On a slightly different note, I wonder if Alex Scott has yet apologised for her own 'privilege'?

[hypochondriac]

  On 17/10/2021 at 12:14, whelk said:

I think it depends on the reason for the objections. Millwall fans booing, Burnley fans flying banners is quite apparent to me why they are getting worked up. But of course they may be lovely inclusive people worried about police budgets and the rise of Marxism all to willing to support other worthy anti racism campaigns. Of course they will use a line of argument that they aren’t racist. But sorry I don’t need someone explaining why we can’t prove Hungarian Carpathian Brigade are racists when I very much trust my judgment.

To say you are against ‘no to racism’ leaves no doubt where someone stands although equally just a marketing tagline that makes no real difference to changing views.

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So if the knee taking campaign was suddenly changed to the "no to racism" campaign that included the knee taking you think the opposition would disappear? 

[whelk]

  On 17/10/2021 at 12:30, hypochondriac said:

So if the knee taking campaign was suddenly changed to the "no to racism" campaign that included the knee taking you think the opposition would disappear? 

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Too much has gone on previously to be a simple rebranding exercise. 

[hypochondriac]

  On 17/10/2021 at 13:01, whelk said:

Too much has gone on previously to be a simple rebranding exercise. 

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So the taking of the knee has been tainted by previous political associations? Isn't that what the majority of opponents on here to the gesture have been trying to say? So it's not so much about anyone disliking knee taking just being racist then. 

[whelk]

  On 17/10/2021 at 13:15, hypochondriac said:

So the taking of the knee has been tainted by previous political associations? Isn't that what the majority of opponents on here to the gesture have been trying to say? So it's not so much about anyone disliking knee taking just being racist then. 

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Don’t know what point you are making? Black Lives Matter movement is important and needed in the US but far from perfect.
Racists hate it and want to do everything to discredit it. And love it when Fox News etc do everything so they can have their views validated because they only don’t like it because of ‘this and that’

We agree that it is not the same situation in the UK but equally racists here froth up about it. I wish it would stop and annoys me all the sanctimony around it. 

As an aside the Obama documentaries on Sky are very good and highlight so much of the race issues they have in US that a black president came up against.

[hypochondriac]

  On 17/10/2021 at 15:14, whelk said:

Don’t know what point you are making? Black Lives Matter movement is important and needed in the US but far from perfect.
Racists hate it and want to do everything to discredit it. And love it when Fox News etc do everything so they can have their views validated because they only don’t like it because of ‘this and that’

We agree that it is not the same situation in the UK but equally racists here froth up about it. I wish it would stop and annoys me all the sanctimony around it. 

As an aside the Obama documentaries on Sky are very good and highlight so much of the race issues they have in US that a black president came up against.

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I don't doubt that there will be some racists in the UK that dislike the taking of the knee. My point is that disliking the knee taking does not make you a racist given the previous political associations with the action that you have already alluded to. America is different and that's a separate discussion. Personally I really dislike yank imports pretending that we have any sort of race problem in the UK that is even slightly on the same scale as something they have over there. 

[Weston Super Saint]

  On 17/10/2021 at 15:14, whelk said:

Don’t know what point you are making? Black Lives Matter movement is important and needed in the US but far from perfect.
Racists hate it and want to do everything to discredit it. And love it when Fox News etc do everything so they can have their views validated because they only don’t like it because of ‘this and that’

We agree that it is not the same situation in the UK but equally racists here froth up about it. I wish it would stop and annoys me all the sanctimony around it. 

As an aside the Obama documentaries on Sky are very good and highlight so much of the race issues they have in US that a black president came up against.

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Does this make you a racist or is it just everyone else who may have the same opinion that are the racists?

[whelk]

  On 17/10/2021 at 15:57, Weston Super Saint said:

Does this make you a racist or is it just everyone else who may have the same opinion that are the racists?

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I can’t be racist I once lent a black kid my pencil sharpener when I was 9 years old.