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Tino Livramento

SuperSAINT

By SuperSAINT
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Dman

Dman

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 10:55, Turkish said:

But he's being suggested for a central midfield role. It seems to be at the moment the answer is Liveramento, what is the question?

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I think you may have miss understood the post. The way I read it was he’d be 1 of the 4 (I.e on the right with OR and SA in CM). 

Personally, I think Liveramento has a touch of S Armstrong about him when going forward and is pretty direct. 

I think he’d do an alright job out there, certainly no worse than Theo / Mo etc. KWP is a very, very good RB so not losing anything on that perspective. 

Given we’re trying to fit square pegs in round holes with KWP playing LB anyway, I don’t see the harm in at least trying him as a winger, personally. 

hans gruber

hans gruber

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 10:07, BallBoy said:

I agree that Tino could play anywhere and be better than most that we currently play in midfield. With JWP out surely this is the moment to play him in midfield with Romeo, Armstrong + one other. Perraud and KWP in their natural positions. Is that too obvious?

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Exactly what I was thinking, seems to have a decent enough tank as well

Charlie Wayman

Charlie Wayman

Posted
Posted

The lad is still vey raw and naive and was certainly not at his best against Chelsea. Fans expectations of him are too high, too soon. He's a teenager not a seasoned professional with many seasons of experience behind him and the sort of flexibility that comes from that. 

  • Like 3
TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted

I would like to see with JWP out

Macca

KWP Bednarek Salisu Perraud

Armstrong Romeu Diallo

Armstrong Adams Livramento

Put him in a front three like a Mane/Bale and see what he can do. Yeah I know he is an LB but it feels like he can play anywhere.

Billy the Kidd

Billy the Kidd

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 10:36, qwertyell said:

Shame that doesn't include winning a few games.

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Shame you cant see we have had the hardest opening 7 fixtures in the league, or that we are playing pretty well just now, Wolves aside.

How about you re-visit that after the next run of games, and if we are still winless, I will agree he should go. Until then, I wouldnt change the manager,

Minsk

Minsk

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 04/10/2021 at 10:09, Saint Garrett said:

I don't find it bizarre at all.  He's a right back playing right back. If you put him out of position, it's just the same as playing KWP out of position.  Perhaps he thinks he's better from RB rather than a "10". Also, KWP has played LB quite a lot in his career.  I understand why fans would like to see him further forward, but I don't see it a problem that he isn't, and certainly don't find it bizarre.

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Exactly this. He was bought as a very promising RB, who had never yet made a full professional appearance. Ralph showed his trust and threw him in for the first match. Tino did so well Ralph had to continue to pick him. Tino has continued to play so well that he has earned rave reviews. Yet instead of praising Ralph for being brave enough to play him and keep picking him the usual suspects have their knives out for not playing him in a totally different position - a whole 7 matches into the season, which are the only 7 matches he has ever played as a senior professional.

I understand he has played in midfield for Chelsea U23. That is a totally different thing to playing there in the prem. Maybe he would be good there. Maybe he will end up being an attacker. But maybe, for now, he is best served by letting him get his feet under the table in the Premier League as a right back; his most natural position (thus far) and the one he was signed to play.

I wonder, to all those of you who are aghast that he hasn't been played further forward yet, which matches should Livramento have been played as a 10 instead of a RB? Away at the current league champions? Away at the current European champions? Maybe his 2nd senior match ever, at home to Utd? Of course, they will point to Wolves. A match we had more possession in, 3.5 times more shots in, double the number of shots on target (including a good one by Tino, while playing at RB) and one we lost due to a mistake by Bednarek, as well as a lack of converting those chances created. I know one thing for sure, had Ralph played Tino as a 10 in that match, and the result was the same 1-0 defeat, he would have been berated for doing so by the same people currently lambasting him for not trying it now....

He has only played 7 senior matches in his life for crying out loud! To be honest I do think it would be interesting to see how he would get on as a RM/AM. That said, I understand why it hasn't happened yet and why he is unlikely to be picked in that position in the foreseeable. As we all know, we need to start getting wins and picking up points. That means playing your best players in their best positions, not taking one out of his to 'try him elsewhere just to see how he gets on'. Experiments like that are for friendlies or, at best/worst (depending on viewpoint), when forced to shift players around due to injuries sustained mid-match - but with 9 subs on the bench nowadays that should never be an issue anyway.

Oh, and as for those complaining about Ralph playing KWP at LB - I'm sure even the footballing God that is Pochettino (according to many on here) also played him at LB. I also think he had 2 very good matches in that position for us, away at City and Chelsea.

Edited by Minsk
  • Like 1
Minsk

Minsk

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 12:32, TWar said:

I would like to see with JWP out

Macca

KWP Bednarek Salisu Perraud

Armstrong Romeu Diallo

Armstrong Adams Livramento

Put him in a front three like a Mane/Bale and see what he can do. Yeah I know he is an LB but it feels like he can play anywhere.

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He is a RB not a LB.

Usually agree with most that you post, but I can't here. Why should we try a 4-3-3 with Tino as one of the front 3 in the next 3 matches which we really need to win (at least 2 of)? If we were to go with a 4-3-3 I would be far happier if those 3 were all actual attackers. So 3 of: Arma, Che, Broja and Tella. Not trying out a RB there for the first time in his career.

  • Like 1
qwertyell

qwertyell

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 12:37, Billy the Kidd said:

Shame you cant see we have had the hardest opening 7 fixtures in the league, or that we are playing pretty well just now, Wolves aside.

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And the previous 21 fixtures? Were they too hard as well? What is it, 18 points from our last 28 games?

When your team's in a nine month death spiral, we're the only easy-looking fixture on the schedule.

Billy the Kidd

Billy the Kidd

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 14:33, qwertyell said:

And the previous 21 fixtures? Were they too hard as well? What is it, 18 points from our last 28 games?

When your team's in a nine month death spiral, we're the only easy-looking fixture on the schedule.

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Well, that is one way of looking at it.

Yes, the previous number of months hasn’t been good enough. But we kept the manager, and this season we have started again. The previous piece has been done to death, and quite frankly is boring people keep banging on about it. We were shit, we had injuries, it happened, get over it.

Are you suggesting you believe we are playing the same way, or can you accept it has been far better this season, with formations, tactics, and substitutions?

like I keep saying, if we are in the same position after the next 4-5 games, I imagine we will replace Ralph. If we come out of that in a good position, I expect we wont.

Will you be happy if we achieve the latter, or do you just want him gone?

  • Like 1
Minsk

Minsk

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 14:33, qwertyell said:

And the previous 21 fixtures? Were they too hard as well? What is it, 18 points from our last 28 games?

When your team's in a nine month death spiral, we're the only easy-looking fixture on the schedule.

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Why previous 21? Why not previous 31 (to make it 38, as in a full season)? And if that, why then ignore the 5 matches previous (won 4 drew 1)?

Last season has no bearing on this one. We have different players in our squad, as do every other team. Ralph has been much better at choosing/changing formations and tactics, as well as his use of subs. It's what happens this season that matters. We didn't get relegated last season because of our results (or the 2 seasons prior to that) and we won't get relegated this season based on what happened in previous years.

  • Like 5
Billy the Kidd

Billy the Kidd

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 15:01, Minsk said:

Why previous 21? Why not previous 31 (to make it 38, as in a full season)? And if that, why then ignore the 5 matches previous (won 4 drew 1)?

Last season has no bearing on this one. We have different players in our squad, as do every other team. Ralph has been much better at choosing/changing formations and tactics, as well as his use of subs. It's what happens this season that matters. We didn't get relegated last season because of our results (or the 2 seasons prior to that) and we won't get relegated this season based on what happened in previous years.

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Well said. I sometimes think people look at a snapshot to fit an opinion held at that exact moment.

  • Like 1
Minsk

Minsk

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 04/10/2021 at 14:57, adriansfc said:

He's a right back in the same way Bale was a left back. He's just starting out, played plenty at right wing and has the talent to adjust to lots of positions. It would be crazy to label him one thing at this stage rather than see where his attributes best fit. 

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As I said, maybe he will end up being better/used more often further up the field - eventually. Just don't see why people are demanding (and slagging Ralph for not already trying) him to be played in a different position only 7 matches into his career. Pretty sure Bale wasn't converted to a winger after only 7 matches as a LB....... 

I think it would be crazy to try him in different positions in matches that we desperately need to win.

Edited by Minsk
added last sentence
Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 14:33, qwertyell said:

And the previous 21 fixtures? Were they too hard as well? What is it, 18 points from our last 28 games?

When your team's in a nine month death spiral, we're the only easy-looking fixture on the schedule.

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Out of interest, how many points is it out of the last 29 games? Or 30?

Minsk

Minsk

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 15:15, Whitey Grandad said:

Out of interest, how many points is it out of the last 29 games? Or 30?

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We won the 29th; drew the 30th and 31st; lost the 32nd; drew the the 33rd; won the 34th and 35th; lost the 36th; won 5 and drew 2 immediately before that. Oh, and we also won 4 and lost 1 FA Cup matches in that run, as well as winning 2 cup matches, albeit one on penalties, this season.

TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 13:49, Minsk said:

He is a RB not a LB.

Usually agree with most that you post, but I can't here. Why should we try a 4-3-3 with Tino as one of the front 3 in the next 3 matches which we really need to win (at least 2 of)? If we were to go with a 4-3-3 I would be far happier if those 3 were all actual attackers. So 3 of: Arma, Che, Broja and Tella. Not trying out a RB there for the first time in his career.

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Quite right, was going to say he is a rightfooted player but I would play him as left sided forward so he could cut in as he is better at beating a man than crossing, but then cut it and confused myself!

You are probably right, I am being a bit daring, try it out in training but a front three of Djenepo Adams Armstrong probably makes more sense in the short term, or Tella.

Jeremy Corbyn

Jeremy Corbyn

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 17:45, captainchris said:

Definitely not two up front. We cannot get enough of the ball with two standing around up there. We have to work on the one up front …. 

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Personally think our squad suits 4-3-3 at the moment (though the JWP does impact that somewhat):

          McCarthy


    Tino Stephens (JB) Salisu Perraud


           Romeu
    JWP (Diallo)  S.Armstrong


  Tella A.Armstrong Djenepo

Allows our two attacking full backs to push forward and utilises Stuart Armstrong through the middle whilst offering reasonable cover.

  • Like 1
captainchris

captainchris

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 17:59, Jeremy Corbyn said:

Personally think our squad suits 4-3-3 at the moment (though the JWP does impact that somewhat):

          McCarthy


    Tino Stephens (JB) Salisu Perraud


           Romeu
    JWP (Diallo)  S.Armstrong


  Tella A.Armstrong Djenepo

Allows our two attacking full backs to push forward and utilises Stuart Armstrong through the middle whilst offering reasonable cover.

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The issue has been what ever formation we get caught with too many players too far advanced and get taken on the break, also means we are too vulnerable to being outnumbered yet again and lose possession far too often. This is probably why Ralph is opting for slow ponderous build ups as he can’t coach the players to attack quickly but without too many ahead of the ball. 

 

  • 5 weeks later...
JRM

JRM

Posted
Posted
  On 04/11/2021 at 11:23, TWar said:

Up for prem player of the month at 18. What a signing he has turned out to be! 

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He's been superb. 

Getting a lot of attention now though, if he keeps this up he'll have a good chance of going to the World Cup next year , just hope it's as a Saints player. 

TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
  On 04/11/2021 at 11:44, JRM said:

He's been superb. 

Getting a lot of attention now though, if he keeps this up he'll have a good chance of going to the World Cup next year , just hope it's as a Saints player. 

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I think he's still a way off the world Cup, James has also been incredible as has TAA and Walker is pretty dependable. Getting past those three will be pretty impossible. Should be in and around 4th choice though, if we have a couple of injuries could happen. 

I doubt he leaves saints this summer, but if he keeps it up for two seasons £38m back to Chelsea is a steal. 

skintsaint

skintsaint

Posted
Posted
  On 04/11/2021 at 11:53, Lighthouse said:

Has any country ever had such absurd depth in talent in one position before? James, TAA, AWB, Walker, Trippier, Liv and even KWP could realistically play for England.

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GS likes to shoehorn in Trippier at left back so KWP has a 2nd in. #ralphstylee

TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 04/11/2021 at 11:53, Lighthouse said:

Has any country ever had such absurd depth in talent in one position before? James, TAA, AWB, Walker, Trippier, Liv and even KWP could realistically play for England.

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Others too, Cash, Ben Johnson, Ben Godfrey, Lampety all have the potential to be knocking on the door in the next few years (EDIT not cash, he's polish now apparently). At lb we aren't nearly as stacked unfortunately. 

Edited by TWar
nta786

nta786

Posted
Posted
  On 04/11/2021 at 11:46, TWar said:

I think he's still a way off the world Cup, James has also been incredible as has TAA and Walker is pretty dependable. Getting past those three will be pretty impossible. Should be in and around 4th choice though, if we have a couple of injuries could happen. 

I doubt he leaves saints this summer, but if he keeps it up for two seasons £38m back to Chelsea is a steal. 

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Yep, although Gareth name dropped Tino today in the conference - shows he could be on the agenda in the future

I think WC 2022 is out of question but Euro 2024 would not surprise me - just hope he is still with us by then!

TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
  On 04/11/2021 at 14:41, nta786 said:

Yep, although Gareth name dropped Tino today in the conference - shows he could be on the agenda in the future

I think WC 2022 is out of question but Euro 2024 would not surprise me - just hope he is still with us by then!

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That's exciting! 

stknowle

stknowle

Posted
Posted
  On 04/11/2021 at 12:05, TWar said:

Others too, Cash, Ben Johnson, Ben Godfrey, Lampety all have the potential to be knocking on the door in the next few years (EDIT not cash, he's polish now apparently). At lb we aren't nearly as stacked unfortunately. 

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Not as stacked but 3 very good ones in Shaw, Chilwell and Cresswell. Should be enough! 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted

It'd be an interesting formation:

 

Pickford

Stones      Maguire

Wan Bissaka                                 Henderson                                           Shaw

TAA                                                                                                                              Cresswell

Livramento                                                                                                                             Chilwell

Kane

once_bitterne

once_bitterne

Posted
Posted
  On 05/11/2021 at 11:24, Saint-Reece said:

It can't be exercised until 2023, I may have imagined reading that though.

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It's all conjecture.  No one apart from those involved know what was in the contract.  I've heard the release clause is anywhere from £20m-40m.  

I would imagine it is heavily weighted in Chelsea's favour though.  There's no way they would let a player of his obvious ability go for a mere £5m if they didn't have the ability to click their fingers and take him back.

saintwbu

saintwbu

Posted
Posted
  On 05/11/2021 at 11:39, once_bitterne said:

It's all conjecture.  No one apart from those involved know what was in the contract.  I've heard the release clause is anywhere from £20m-40m.  

I would imagine it is heavily weighted in Chelsea's favour though.  There's no way they would let a player of his obvious ability go for a mere £5m if they didn't have the ability to click their fingers and take him back.

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He would’ve left for free a year later so they only had so much input. The Athletic or Telegraph, can’t remember which, detailed the release clause being £50mil but essentially £38mil to us because Chelsea get a % of that £50mil back in sell-on. Doesn’t become active until 2023.

wild-saint

wild-saint

Posted
Posted
  On 05/11/2021 at 11:39, once_bitterne said:

It's all conjecture.  No one apart from those involved know what was in the contract.  I've heard the release clause is anywhere from £20m-40m.  

I would imagine it is heavily weighted in Chelsea's favour though.  There's no way they would let a player of his obvious ability go for a mere £5m if they didn't have the ability to click their fingers and take him back.

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i think you forget he was refusing to sign a new contract so their hands were tied. 

TWar

TWar

Posted
Posted
  On 05/11/2021 at 11:39, once_bitterne said:

It's all conjecture.  No one apart from those involved know what was in the contract.  I've heard the release clause is anywhere from £20m-40m.  

I would imagine it is heavily weighted in Chelsea's favour though.  There's no way they would let a player of his obvious ability go for a mere £5m if they didn't have the ability to click their fingers and take him back.

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Athletic have pretty reliably said it is a buyback clause of £50m but as they get a share of sell on they'd only have to pay £38m. It becomes active in 2023. 

  • Like 1
Charlie Wayman

Charlie Wayman

Posted
Posted
  On 05/11/2021 at 11:21, once_bitterne said:

When do you think Chelsea will exercise their buy-back clause?  This coming Summer or the one after? 

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It is unlikely that Chelsea are in a position to dictate when they want Livramento back, the clause would more likely come into play if or when Southampton put him on the transfer list. If Livramento wanted to stay here for 4 or 5 years then there is nothing Chelsea would be able to do about it. At least that would be my expectation.

Broja's situation is a different kettle of fish of course. 

VectisSaint

VectisSaint

Posted
Posted
  On 05/11/2021 at 11:39, once_bitterne said:

It's all conjecture.  No one apart from those involved know what was in the contract.  I've heard the release clause is anywhere from £20m-40m.  

I would imagine it is heavily weighted in Chelsea's favour though.  There's no way they would let a player of his obvious ability go for a mere £5m if they didn't have the ability to click their fingers and take him back.

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Not all conjecture. The time frame is governed I believe by FIFA/UEFA standards on buy back clauses. My understanding is that the buying club are protected for at least 2 years. There has to be some protection otherwise no one in their right mind would agree to a deal where the selling club can just click their fingers whenever they want. 

Lighthouse

Lighthouse

Posted
Posted
  On 06/11/2021 at 15:40, SW5 SAINT said:

I can’t imagine Livramento being that keen on a return to Chelsea as long as the likes of Reece James remains there….

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Liverpool have TAA, United have AWB. Maybe his best long term bet is to replace Walker, who will be 32 next summer, at City. Arsenal could be a reasonable bet but I doubt Spurs could afford him.

jimmer42

jimmer42

Posted
Posted
  On 04/10/2021 at 13:43, Minsk said:

Exactly this. He was bought as a very promising RB, who had never yet made a full professional appearance. Ralph showed his trust and threw him in for the first match. Tino did so well Ralph had to continue to pick him. Tino has continued to play so well that he has earned rave reviews. Yet instead of praising Ralph for being brave enough to play him and keep picking him the usual suspects have their knives out for not playing him in a totally different position - a whole 7 matches into the season, which are the only 7 matches he has ever played as a senior professional.

I understand he has played in midfield for Chelsea U23. That is a totally different thing to playing there in the prem. Maybe he would be good there. Maybe he will end up being an attacker. But maybe, for now, he is best served by letting him get his feet under the table in the Premier League as a right back; his most natural position (thus far) and the one he was signed to play.

I wonder, to all those of you who are aghast that he hasn't been played further forward yet, which matches should Livramento have been played as a 10 instead of a RB? Away at the current league champions? Away at the current European champions? Maybe his 2nd senior match ever, at home to Utd? Of course, they will point to Wolves. A match we had more possession in, 3.5 times more shots in, double the number of shots on target (including a good one by Tino, while playing at RB) and one we lost due to a mistake by Bednarek, as well as a lack of converting those chances created. I know one thing for sure, had Ralph played Tino as a 10 in that match, and the result was the same 1-0 defeat, he would have been berated for doing so by the same people currently lambasting him for not trying it now....

He has only played 7 senior matches in his life for crying out loud! To be honest I do think it would be interesting to see how he would get on as a RM/AM. That said, I understand why it hasn't happened yet and why he is unlikely to be picked in that position in the foreseeable. As we all know, we need to start getting wins and picking up points. That means playing your best players in their best positions, not taking one out of his to 'try him elsewhere just to see how he gets on'. Experiments like that are for friendlies or, at best/worst (depending on viewpoint), when forced to shift players around due to injuries sustained mid-match - but with 9 subs on the bench nowadays that should never be an issue anyway.

Oh, and as for those complaining about Ralph playing KWP at LB - I'm sure even the footballing God that is Pochettino (according to many on here) also played him at LB. I also think he had 2 very good matches in that position for us, away at City and Chelsea.

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Really good post!

I have no doubt Tino will end up playing in a more advanced or central midfield role. However he is very young and very inexperienced at this level. He needs time to learn ONE role properly at this level first, even just being a first team premier league pro and he does not need the confusion of multiple roles and demands at the moment

There will be also  ups and downs with his performance as evidenced by a very slight drop in performance levels against Villa on Friday. He needs to be managed very carefully and rested occasionally, think of how Ryan Giggs was managed by Alex Ferguson, otherwise we risk burnout, injury and / or future progression

We have a stellar asset in my opinion and with that a responsibility to manage and develop him responsibly. If we do this, we will get the rewards over the next 2/3 years or a big sell on fee, either of which will benefit the club.

If we want to heap expectation on to players, let do it on others who may not be performing or who are more seasoned professionals should be able to step up

I'm really excited about this kid....could easily be another Gareth Bale

Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 07/11/2021 at 10:41, AlexLaw76 said:

Tino playing a more advanced role.  Is this like Jack Stephens playing CM?

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No, more comparable to Gareth Bale switching position as they both have the skillset and Stephens is far more limited.

Edited by Matthew Le God

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