Returning to St Marys

[RedArmy]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

You might argue that he is much more of a danger to other unvaccinated people like himself than he is to those who have seen sense

Not really an issue then is it. 

[East Kent Saint]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

What is wrong with a two tier society? The thick cunts and the rest of us. St Mary’s might be more pleasant this season

We already have a divided society , it has always been that way . If you are rich and privileged you can behave how you like , the rest of us just have to suck it up . You can buy a passport to most countries these days if you are rich enough . You can fly to America and back during Covid if you have the privilege , ie people like Farage ! You can stash all you millions in an off shore tax haven in a blind trust if you are the Chancellor of the exchequer , you can buy a £50M flat in London registered to an off shore trust and avoid council tax if you are rich enough . If you sit on the govt committee looking after the betting industry you can get free £3000 hospitality tickets to the Euro matches or £1000 tickets to Wimbledon!

[suewhistle]

1 hour ago, Saint86 said:

Boris and co are just going to ride rough shod over the outcome no doubt still citing the same emergency powers that they're using to try to ban protests and silence journalists then? Not to mention ignoring businesses.

I abominate the PM who is a narcissistic, lazy, unempathetic liar, and a populist who wants to be liked so he's far more likely to shrug his shoulders and say 'whatevs" and "so what".  It's the "and co" behind him that are even more dangerous.  That said I'm not sure what the answer is to mass events. We already have a high resurgence of cases and mutterings from the medics, and the rest of the world thinks our "Freedom Day" opening up is a recipe for disaster. 

What we don't need now are more people who are against vaccinations. The anti-vaxer (MMR) loons have already led to a resurgence in measles cases, and the last thing we need is a cohort of people saying "I'm not going to have one because you told me to"..

 

.. Ah yes, the Yellow Fever vaccination, it's a doozy. Had it in my buttock when I was 4. Couldn't move for days..

[AlexLaw76]

7 minutes ago, suewhistle said:

I abominate the PM who is a narcissistic, lazy, unempathetic liar, and a populist who wants to be liked so he's far more likely to shrug his shoulders and say 'whatevs" and "so what".  It's the "and co" behind him that are even more dangerous.  That said I'm not sure what the answer is to mass events. We already have a high resurgence of cases and mutterings from the medics, and the rest of the world thinks our "Freedom Day" opening up is a recipe for disaster. 

What we don't need now are more people who are against vaccinations. The anti-vaxer (MMR) loons have already led to a resurgence in measles cases, and the last thing we need is a cohort of people saying "I'm not going to have one because you told me to"..

 

.. Ah yes, the Yellow Fever vaccination, it's a doozy. Had it in my buttock when I was 4. Couldn't move for days..

Do you live in the UK? 

If so, I'm sure you will have noticed the dramatic fall in cases..and the miniscule numbers (sadly) dying 

Under these numbers, we would have laughed at entertaining lockdown.

Edited 25 July, 2021 by AlexLaw76

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, RedArmy said:

Not really an issue then is it. 

I’m not worried about him infecting me, but if I’m in a restaurant with multiple members of my family I wouldn’t want him sitting anywhere near us.

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, RedArmy said:

Not really an issue then is it. 

Tell that to all the outpatients who’ve had treatments delayed because doctors and nurses are too busy dealing with people who, "don’t need the vaccine, it’s my personal choice."

[RedArmy]

12 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I’m not worried about him infecting me, but if I’m in a restaurant with multiple members of my family I wouldn’t want him sitting anywhere near us.

So you don’t trust the vaccine, or do you? 
 

I’m lost. 

[RedArmy]

9 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Tell that to all the outpatients who’ve had treatments delayed because doctors and nurses are too busy dealing with people who, "don’t need the vaccine, it’s my personal choice."

What about the ones that got the vaccine and still ended up in hospital? 

[Lighthouse]

9 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

What about the ones that got the vaccine and still ended up in hospital? 

Yes, bravo, you’ve finally got it!! They’re the reason YOU need to get vaccinated, because if you don’t you’re far more likely to put people like that in hospital.
 

What about the people who wore seatbelts and still died in car crashes?

[RedArmy]

13 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Yes, bravo, you’ve finally got it!! They’re the reason YOU need to get vaccinated, because if you don’t you’re far more likely to put people like that in hospital.
 

What about the people who wore seatbelts and still died in car crashes?

I am vaccinated thank you. Doesn’t mean I can’t catch it or spread it. 

[Whitey Grandad]

5 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

I am vaccinated thank you. Doesn’t mean I can’t catch it or spread it. 

But it reduces the likelihood of either. By quite a lot.

[Whitey Grandad]

40 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

So you don’t trust the vaccine, or do you? 
 

I’m lost. 

Being vaccinated protects me quite well. It’s all the unvaccinated who are at risk. 
 

If someone is not vaccinated they are a potential danger to that part of society who is also not vaccinated and to some extent to the vaccinated too. If an unvaccinated sits amongst a thousand vaccinated then he is not probably not going to infect anybody. But if he sits amongst a thousand unvaccinated and one vaccinated then he has the potential to prolong the spread of the virus and cause harm to some of those he infects, and the one who is unvaccinated can feel somewhat smug.

Anyone who chooses not to get vaccinated is riding on the backs of all those who have chosen to get jabbed. It’s his privilege, but he shouldn’t be surprised if the vaccinated majority elect to impose restrictions on him.

Personally I feel that anyone who doesn’t get jabbed is a mug. I have just had a look at my immunisation record and it’s quite a long list including polio, tetanus, diphtheria, Hepatitis A, pneumonia, multiple influenza, yellow fever, typhoid, shingles and some I can’t remember. The only one I had to pay for was yellow fever and we are fortunate to live in a country where healthcare is mostly free to access. I had repeated tetanus jabs when I used to play football. Catching tetanus and dying from it would be a stupid way to go.

[Saint_Jonny]

12 hours ago, whelk said:

What is wrong with a two tier society? The thick cunts and the rest of us. St Mary’s might be more pleasant this season

I have had similar thoughts to this. Maybe I won't see the same bunch of holocaust lovers and Pompey obsessed delinquents on the train to away games this season? 

 

[simo]

I was debating renewing my season ticket last week , the passport bollocks helped me decide to save my money . I'm quite happy not forking out any more money until we know any long term effects . Having lost a friend to a blood clot related illness after having their vaccine the short term effects are well known .

[Noodles34]

On 25/07/2021 at 08:06, TWar said:

Dunno if you have been following the news but COVID kills people...

Our excess death in this country passed 100,000 people in February, now it's up to about 110,000. It definitely does kill people. And as @waylander excellently put, there are still countless people who can't take the virus or will not be able to. I have a close family friend with lupus and another on chemo.

I don't want either of them dying because some prick with a "freedom" complex decided they didn't want a vaccine but still wanted to roam around potentially infecting others. Freedom is all well and good when it doesn't endanger others, in the same way you don't have the freedom to buy and redistribute heroin or to drive when off your face.

so this just last forever then, because we have to account for everyone that cannot take the vaccine?

[Noodles34]

16 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

Tell that to all the outpatients who’ve had treatments delayed because doctors and nurses are too busy dealing with people who, "don’t need the vaccine, it’s my personal choice."

and all the people last year because we so busy saving the elderly and the vulnerable and basically shutting everything else off. 

[TWar]

30 minutes ago, Noodles34 said:

so this just last forever then, because we have to account for everyone that cannot take the vaccine?

The virus only lasts inside of people. If you make the chances of the virus spreading low enough then it cannot survive as it won't be able to hop between carriers. We will reach that point on our current trajectory but we aren't there yet and the more people take the vaccine the faster we get there. Therefore football clubs accelerating us to that point has a bonus value.

This is why the UK hasn't had a case of polio since the mid-80s despite it's vaccine not being 100% effective, it was effective enough to slow the spread to the point where the virus can't sustain and there weren't any nutters not trusting the scientists to slow the vaccine rollout.

Edited 26 July, 2021 by TWar

[Lighthouse]

56 minutes ago, Noodles34 said:

and all the people last year because we so busy saving the elderly and the vulnerable and basically shutting everything else off. 

The difference being that last year there was no vaccine and we had no choice in the matter.

[magnet]

20 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The difference being that last year there was no vaccine and we had no choice in the matter.

I know more vaccinated people that have/had covid that unvaccinated, work that out..

I have just asked for a refund on my season ticket of 25 years because I wont be getting the vaccine and I know I'm not the only one.

[Whitey Grandad]

6 minutes ago, magnet said:

I know more vaccinated people that have/had covid that unvaccinated, work that out..

I have just asked for a refund on my season ticket of 25 years because I wont be getting the vaccine and I know I'm not the only one.

Nothing to work out. Your sample of acquaintances is very small and meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Presumably you've just paid for a renewal and are seeking a cancellation before ever going to a game.

 

[TWar]

11 minutes ago, magnet said:

I know more vaccinated people that have/had covid that unvaccinated, work that out..

I have just asked for a refund on my season ticket of 25 years because I wont be getting the vaccine and I know I'm not the only one.

Three explanations:

1) You know more vaccinated people than unvaccinated by a significant margin as you don't hang out with many teenagers/anti-vaxx nutjobs. Even if you are 10 times more likely to get it (as the science suggests) without the vaccine, you know more than ten times as many people who have had one jab. Therefore the numbers work out. (this is definitely the case for me)

2) The people who are antivaxx nutters either A) won't be tested when sick or B) wouldn't disclose being sick to others as it is kind of a direct consequence of their stupid life choices therefore there could be people you know who did get it having been antivaxx and just didn't tell you

3) Confirmation bias. You don't take a formal tally when you meet people with COVID so it is all from memory and you are more likely to remember someone getting sick with the vaccine than without as it is more noteworthy.

I'd wager one of those. Could also be just luck owing to your tiny sample size. Either way, this is why we have actual science which categorically proves that the vaccine lowers your risk catching COVID.

[JRM]

18 minutes ago, magnet said:

I know more vaccinated people that have/had covid that unvaccinated, work that out..

I have just asked for a refund on my season ticket of 25 years because I wont be getting the vaccine and I know I'm not the only one.

Sad times. 

In the future we'll look back and explain to kids how their social credit scoring system and government monitoring began with abuse of powers in response to a bug. 

Stay Home > Protect Our NHS > Save Lives > Ban healthy people from taking part in normal life for not complying 

[magnet]

3 minutes ago, TWar said:

Three explanations:

1) You know more vaccinated people than unvaccinated by a significant margin as you don't hang out with many teenagers/anti-vaxx nutjobs. Even if you are 10 times more likely to get it (as the science suggests) without the vaccine, you know more than ten times as many people who have had one jab. Therefore the numbers work out. (this is definitely the case for me)

2) The people who are antivaxx nutters either A) won't be tested when sick or B) wouldn't disclose being sick to others as it is kind of a direct consequence of their stupid life choices therefore there could be people you know who did get it having been antivaxx and just didn't tell you

3) Confirmation bias. You don't take a formal tally when you meet people with COVID so it is all from memory and you are more likely to remember someone getting sick with the vaccine than without as it is more noteworthy.

I'd wager one of those. Could also be just luck owing to your tiny sample size. Either way, this is why we have actual science which categorically proves that the vaccine lowers your risk catching COVID.

Your points are not even worth reading if you class every person as nutjob because they choose not to have the vaccine.

I feel sorry for people like you that think government enforced medication is a good idea.

[magnet]

16 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Nothing to work out. Your sample of acquaintances is very small and meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Presumably you've just paid for a renewal and are seeking a cancellation before ever going to a game.

 

I've asked the question about will I get a refund if the wont let me go to the games. I'll probably start supporting Brentford as covid doesnt spread though crowds of 20000 or less....

[TWar]

1 minute ago, magnet said:

Your points are not even worth reading if you class every person as nutjob because they choose not to have the vaccine.

I feel sorry for people like you that think government enforced medication is a good idea.

I don't care what the government thinks. The vaccine is a good idea, that's why basically the entire scientific community is behind it. The scientific community often disagrees with government on a lot of things, like climate change, and I come down with science in that case. The government happen to be on the right side of this one as solving the problem will also make a lot more money, but they are not the reason I'm in favour of it.

[waylander]

15 minutes ago, magnet said:

Your points are not even worth reading if you class every person as nutjob because they choose not to have the vaccine.

I feel sorry for people like you that think government enforced medication is a good idea.

Unless you have a medical condition recognised by your GP there is no reason to not have the vaccine.

Edited 26 July, 2021 by waylander

[JRM]

4 minutes ago, waylander said:

Unless you have a medical condition recognised by your GP there is no reason to not have the vaccine.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/27/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-of-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-jab-family-says

[TWar]

2 minutes ago, JRM said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/27/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-of-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-jab-family-says

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/05/06/putting-risks-into-context-covid-19-vaccines-and-blood-clots/

[Saint_Jonny]

4 minutes ago, JRM said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/27/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-of-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-jab-family-says

You are statistically thousands of times more likely to develop complications from catching Covid-19 than you are from any of the vaccines, so pulling out one in several million-chance blood clot stories is like pissing in the wind. 

 

Edited 26 July, 2021 by Saint_Jonny

[InvictaSaint]

7 minutes ago, JRM said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/27/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-of-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-jab-family-says

Read anything - anything - by David Spiegelhalter before presenting things like this as definitive proof. 

[simo]

24 minutes ago, waylander said:

Unless you have a medical condition recognised by your GP there is no reason to not have the vaccine.

Wonder if people said the same about thalidomide 

[waylander]

20 minutes ago, JRM said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/27/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-of-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-jab-family-says

The risks of developing a blood clot from taking oral contraceptives are substantially higher than those of the vaccines

[waylander]

18 minutes ago, simo said:

Wonder if people said the same about thalidomide 

This is relevent how? Thalidomide was over 50 years ago. How much has science moved on since then? Are you stiil watching a black and white TV? Do you think nothing has been learned about drug safety in that time?

Edited 26 July, 2021 by waylander
Expansion of argument

[Saint_Jonny]

I would love to see a study done to see if there any links between those that don't take the vaccine for whatever dumb reason they come up with, and other issues of note in recent years:

• Voting for BREXIT
• Against BLM and support for taking the knee, etc.
• Against LGBTQ+ inclusion etc.
• Generally being a bigoted tosser

 Wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that being an anti-vaxxer has a high degree of correlation with any or all of the above.

[AshValeSaint]

18 minutes ago, waylander said:

The risks of developing a blood clot from taking oral contraceptives are substantially higher than those of the vaccines

But nobody forces women to take the pill, for example by making it a condition of entry to an event.  Educate people of the benefits and let them make a free choice, without threats or coercion.  It's clearly being done to boost uptake in the young because I don't see how sitting outside at the match can be more risky than sitting inside at a restaurant or pub.  I don't come into close contact with 30,000 strangers on match days (only a few people sitting either side of me), and walking through the concourse is probably safer than taking the tube.  I can understand masks in the concourse and even lateral flow tests while cases are high, but making vaccination a condition of entry is nuts.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, magnet said:

I know more vaccinated people that have/had covid that unvaccinated, work that out..

I have just asked for a refund on my season ticket of 25 years because I wont be getting the vaccine and I know I'm not the only one.

Aside from the fact that that’s purely anecdotal, it’s very simple to explain. As the percentage of people vaccinated increases, the proportion of people with Covid who had the vaccine will also increase. If the whole country had been fully vaccinated and 10 people died in the whole year, you would still be able to claim that, "100% of the people who died of Covid had been vaccinated, therefore the vaccines don’t work." It would be a completely false interpretation of the data, like saying "100% of people who died from cancer last year had heads, therefore having a head gives you cancer."

44 minutes ago, JRM said:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/may/27/bbc-presenter-lisa-shaw-died-of-blood-clot-after-astrazeneca-jab-family-says

Again anecdotal. People die of blood clots related to all sorts of issues, most of which are much, much more prevalent that the Covid vaccine. It’s strange how you worry about this but when otherwise healthy 30 year olds are dying on mechanical ventilation beds, you just pass it off as, "oh well but yeah, that won’t happen to me." 

[OldNick]

I could imagine the anti vaxers hanging Marie Curie or Alexander Fleming. 

'Penicillin. its made of mould, he's the devil burn him'

[JRM]

They had a "Grab a Jab" event at the Guildhall couple of Saturdays ago, was surreal watching people acting like club reps to come on in for a jab, no appointment needed! As if it was a Club offering a free shot on a bar crawl. 

[JRM]

Just now, OldNick said:

I could imagine the anti vaxers hanging Marie Curie or Alexander Fleming. 

'Penicillin. its made of mould, he's the devil burn him'

I haven't seen anyone on here say don't have the vaccine? 

Just that it should be a personal choice for the individual and the government have no right to mandate this either way. 

[Lighthouse]

Just now, JRM said:

They had a "Grab a Jab" event at the Guildhall couple of Saturdays ago, was surreal watching people acting like club reps to come on in for a jab, no appointment needed! As if it was a Club offering a free shot on a bar crawl. 

What’s your point? The government are trying to reach out to the younger generation in ways which are relatable.

[JRM]

5 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Aside from the fact that that’s purely anecdotal, it’s very simple to explain. As the percentage of people vaccinated increases, the proportion of people with Covid who had the vaccine will also increase. If the whole country had been fully vaccinated and 10 people died in the whole year, you would still be able to claim that, "100% of the people who died of Covid had been vaccinated, therefore the vaccines don’t work." It would be a completely false interpretation of the data, like saying "100% of people who died from cancer last year had heads, therefore having a head gives you cancer."

Again anecdotal. People die of blood clots related to all sorts of issues, most of which are much, much more prevalent that the Covid vaccine. It’s strange how you worry about this but when otherwise healthy 30 year olds are dying on mechanical ventilation beds, you just pass it off as, "oh well but yeah, that won’t happen to me." 

Is it anecdotal that they had to stop giving it to u40s as it wasn't safe?

[Turkish]

31 minutes ago, Saint_Jonny said:

I would love to see a study done to see if there any links between those that don't take the vaccine for whatever dumb reason they come up with, and other issues of note in recent years:

• Voting for BREXIT
• Against BLM and support for taking the knee, etc.
• Against LGBTQ+ inclusion etc.
• Generally being a bigoted tosser

 Wouldn't surprise me in the least to find that being an anti-vaxxer has a high degree of correlation with any or all of the above.

So anyone who doesn't want a vaccine is a racist, sexist, immigrant hating homophobe? No nothing bigoted about that. 

[Lighthouse]

1 minute ago, JRM said:

government have no right to mandate this either way. 

We’ve been through this. The government aren’t making you do anything, you have a choice, you’ve made a poor one and you may have to deal with the consequences to protect public health.

 

Nobody forces you to get a drivers license - You do need one to drive a car

Nobody forces you to get a passport - You do need one to get on a plane

Nobody is forcing you to get vaccinated - You may need one to enter various public buildings and private premises.

[Lighthouse]

4 minutes ago, JRM said:

Is it anecdotal that they had to stop giving it to u40s as it wasn't safe?

No, they stopped giving one of the jabs to U40s because they were being ultra-cautious in response to some evidence of very, very rare blood clots affecting 0.0006% of younger people. Most likely they didn’t want these cases being seized upon by anti-vaxxers in an attempt to put people off, like you’ve done with Lisa Shaw.

[East Kent Saint]

The youngsters are getting the Pfizer jab instead of the AZ 

[Saint_Jonny]

35 minutes ago, Turkish said:

So anyone who doesn't want a vaccine is a racist, sexist, immigrant hating homophobe? No nothing bigoted about that. 

If I'm intolerant about anyhting it's intolerant people 😊

[kwsaint]

32 minutes ago, JRM said:

I haven't seen anyone on here say don't have the vaccine? 

Just that it should be a personal choice for the individual and the government have no right to mandate this either way. 

Don't think that the government is mandating everyone to have the vaccination.  It's just that not having the vaccine has consequences for individuals that choose this option.  So anyone working in a care home either has the vaccine or doesnt work there, as the consequences of passing the virus on to old people can be fatal if for any reason they havent had it either.  It's perfectly reasonable for a responsible government to make this decision.

If the evidence was clear that making everyone attend games be double-jabbed would greatly cut down transmission, then a sensible government would make it a condition of entry.  The problem is that it really isnt clear if it would work.  This present government tends to float ideas to see what the reaction would be, rather than act in a more structured way which just causes confusion and irritation.

[JRM]

29 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

No, they stopped giving one of the jabs to U40s because they were being ultra-cautious in response to some evidence of very, very rare blood clots affecting 0.0006% of younger people. Most likely they didn’t want these cases being seized upon by anti-vaxxers in an attempt to put people off, like you’ve done with Lisa Shaw.

As usual this discussion has gone off topic, whether the vaccine is effective or not, will have long term unknown health consequences or not isn't really the issue, the question is how you can allow yourself to become comfortable with government coercion to "encourage " people to take a medical injection in order to be allowed to live a free life. Its a very very slippery slope and a great shame that football is being used as one of the punishments for those who won't comply. 

I may or may not have had the jab myself, but I will not show my papers or support the banning of those simply exercising their right to free individual choice. Where this will all end who knows, but the govt will not stop here that's for sure. 

[CB Fry]

SPLIT THE THREAD 

SPLIT THE THREAD 

SPLIT THE THREAD 

[JRM]

5 minutes ago, kwsaint said:

Don't think that the government is mandating everyone to have the vaccination.  It's just that not having the vaccine has consequences for individuals that choose this option.  So anyone working in a care home either has the vaccine or doesnt work there, as the consequences of passing the virus on to old people can be fatal if for any reason they havent had it either.  It's perfectly reasonable for a responsible government to make this decision.

If the evidence was clear that making everyone attend games be double-jabbed would greatly cut down transmission, then a sensible government would make it a condition of entry.  The problem is that it really isnt clear if it would work.  This present government tends to float ideas to see what the reaction would be, rather than act in a more structured way which just causes confusion and irritation.

I've got a feeling they choose football and nightclubs as topics to get most reaction , whether it will come in in practice not so sure, certainly kids already have been more inventive in moving away from high St bars / clubs to unregulated parties etc