Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: If they don't believe in a god... then yes. Surely / logically they must be labelled the same as you labelled Trousers, i.e agnostic atheists? 6 minutes ago, trousers said: Which of those two words would you use to label me? I've no idea if there's a God or not and I spend zero time pondering whether I believe one or the other. Pretty sure dogs have no idea if there is a god or not and spend zero time pondering whether they belive in one or the other! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 5 minutes ago, trousers said: Which of those two words would you use to label me? I've no idea if there's a God or not and I spend zero time pondering whether I believe one or the other. Just now, trousers said: Why an atheist? Because agnostic & gnostic deal with the question of knowledge and theism &atheism deal with belief. You don't appear to claim knowledge or believe in a god so that makes you an agnostic atheist. It is also possible to be a gnostic atheist, an agnostic theist and a gnostic theist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: An agnostic atheist. The trouble with that is that I don't have a belief one way or the other and to be an atheist you have to have an underlying belief, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, trousers said: The trouble with that is that I don't have a belief one way or the other and to be an atheist you have to have an underlying belief, surely? Atheism is the lack of belief in a god(s), it doesn't require an underlying belief. If you don't have a belief in a god then that automatically makes you an atheist. Both theist and athiest can be further broken down into subsets if you bring claims of knowledge into the question. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't claim there are no gods. I would however claim the god as described in the Bible doesn't exist as the description is deeply flawed and contradictory. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 19 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: I don't know, but when indoctrination/brainwashing starts is irrelevant to babies being born atheist. Faith is the excuse people make for believing in something without evidence. If you had good evidence... you wouldn't need faith. Move away from God. Faith runs deeper, and we all have it. We all cross our fingers. We all hope. That's faith at its simplest - everyone puts faith in something that isn't them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 14 minutes ago, Turkish said: What a great start to the day MLG proving he doesn’t know what an atheist is MLG embarrassing himself by prattling on about belief systems in babies MLG scoring about 5 more own goals im off out for a run, catch up later chump It's hilarious. The boy's all over the place. So desperate to be right. #prayformatty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: Move away from God. Faith runs deeper, and we all have it. We all cross our fingers. We all hope. That's faith at its simplest - everyone puts faith in something that isn't them. That isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: It's hilarious. The boy's all over the place. So desperate to be right. #prayformatty Which of these are you and @Turkish? Every human on the planet is one of the four options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 36 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: When it comes to the question... 'Do you believe in a god' what do you think the options are? Yes, no, don't know, don't give a shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Atheism is the lack of belief in a god(s), it doesn't require an underlying belief. Both theist and athiest can be further broken down into subsets if you bring claims of knowledge into the question. None of the first lines in each of those boxes applies to me as I've never got to the point in any thought process whereby I've reached a conclusion whether to believe in the existence or non-existence of any god. "I believe a god may exist" is the statement that is the closest match to my thoughts. Not "does not believe any god exists" or "believes a god exists". Neither of those match my thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: Yes, no, don't know, don't give a shit. 'Don't know' and 'don't give a shit' are subsets of 'no'. So the choice is therefore binary... Yes or No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 hour ago, egg said: An atheist disbelieves. We're born neutral, ie with neither a belief in a god or religion, nor a disbelief. To suggest that we're born atheist is as nonsensical as suggesting that we're born with belief. Disbelieves or just does not believe? Just semantics. If you are born with a lack of belief in anything through lack of cognition I don’t see the difference. If the actual definition is lack of belief, that doesn’t imply, to me, that a choice has necessarily been made. Surely if you lived on a remote island and knew nothing about God or religion, you would technically be an atheist? Anyway. I had a girlfriend back in the 70’s who was a strong believer in Christianity. We didn’t talk about it much as I wasn’t interested but I did ask her once how come that she was so sure that there was a God. Her reply was she just felt it inside. We all have a belief system. Some people believe that Ralph Hasenhuttl should remain the Saints manager and some don’t. Who is right and who is wrong. Her belief doesn’t make me inclined to believe in God’s existence, but my disbelief also doesn’t prevent her from believing. I could argue about the clear scientific discrepancies in the Bible but then the Bible is only a man made manifestation and an interpretation of what some people think so what does that have to do with what is felt inside? If a form of words trigger an emotion, why should we not trust that emotion? It might not make logical sense, but then surely logic, like an emotional response is only the result of a chemical reaction? All we can do is live our lives according to our own belief systems.What happens after is in the lap of the Gods 😉😇 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Which of these are you and @Turkish? Every human on the planet is one of the four options. There are all sorts of different theological theories...your interpretation is not one that others agree with. Ultimately, the badge is irrelevant. A baby has no beliefs or disbelief at birth. It's a blank canvas. You seem to grasp that, so fuck knows what point you're trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, trousers said: None of the first lines in each of those boxes applies to me as I've never got to the point in any thought process whereby I've reached a conclusion whether to believe in the existence or non-existence of any god. "I believe a god may exist" is the statement that is the closest match to my thoughts. Not "does not believe any god exists" or "believes a god exists". Neither of those match my thinking. If you think it is a possibility there is a god but don't currently hold the belief in a god that still puts you in the top left box of being an agnostic atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 17 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: If they don't believe in a god... then yes. Does a dyslexic dog believe in god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, egg said: There are all sorts of different theological theories...your interpretation is not one that others agree with. Ultimately, the badge is irrelevant. A baby has no beliefs or disbelief at birth. It's a blank canvas. You seem to grasp that, so fuck knows what point you're trying to make. What about that diagram do you think isn't correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 5 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: That isn't true. Are you honestly telling me that you've never once crossed your fingers and hoped for the best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 4 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Every human on the planet is one of the four options People suffering from cognitive dissonance can be in more than one box of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: If you think it is a possibility there is a god but don't currently hold the belief in a god that still puts you in the top left box of being an agnostic atheist. I disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: What about that diagram do you think isn't correct? It deals exclusively with either knowledge or belief. It doesn't cover incidents where netiher a knowledge or belief has been developed, such as a new born baby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: Are you honestly telling me that you've never once crossed your fingers and hoped for the best? Sure, as a child due to cultural adoption of the gesture. Not as an adult as it is superstitious nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 4 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: 'Don't know' and 'don't give a shit' are subsets of 'no'. So the choice is therefore binary... Yes or No. Don't know is neither yes nor no. Its an honest answer. I don't know whether I'll get a blow job later. It may be a yes, it may be a no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: Sure, as a child due to cultural adoption of the gesture. Not as an adult as it is superstitious nonsense. OK. Doing so was an act of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, trousers said: I disagree Why? You don't currently believe in a god = atheist You don't claim knowledge there are no god(s) = agnostic So that makes you an agnostic atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, egg said: Don't know is neither yes nor no. Its an honest answer. I don't know whether I'll get a blow job later. It may be a yes, it may be a no. But the question concerns belief. Belief is binary, a person either believes in X or does not believe in X. If you don't know if X exists then you don't currently believe in it existing! Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: 3 minutes ago, trousers said: I disagree You don't currently believe in a god How do you know my thought processes on the matter have reached a point of conclusion? What if I'm still thinking about it or have never given it any thought? Surely a belief by definition is something you've reached a conclusion on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, trousers said: How do you know my thought processes on the matter have reached a point of conclusion? What if I'm still thinking about it or have never given it any thought? Surely a belief by definition is something you've reached a conclusion on? Nope, doesn't require conclusion. It is a statement of your current position which can be a fluid one open to change. If I had some good evidence the god of the Bible manifested in reality I'd believe it existed. I'm yet to see any good evidence for it however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: But the question concerns belief. Belief is binary, a person either believes in X or does not believe in X. If you don't know if X exists then you don't believe in it! I don't know how to break this down any easier for you! You need to get away from your binary world Matty. Following your logic, questions can only ever be answered yes or no. That's a bit mental. Give this one a try with a binary yes or no factual answer. Will Harry Kane score against Germany? My answer is a non binary "I don't know". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: Nope, doesn't require conclusion. It is a statement of your current position What if my current position is that I've never given it any thought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: You need to get away from your binary world Matty. Following your logic, questions can only ever be answered yes or no. That's a bit mental. Give this one a try with a binary yes or no factual answer. Will Harry Kane score against Germany? My answer is a non binary "I don't know". Would also mean that there a no questions that shouldn't need to be answered because they are invalid as Matty has previous claimed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: You need to get away from your binary world Matty. Following your logic, questions can only ever be answered yes or no. That's a bit mental. Give this one a try with a binary yes or no factual answer. Will Harry Kane score against Germany? My answer is a non binary "I don't know". I've never claimed it applies to all questions. So it is bizarre you've twisted my words in such a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said: Would also mean that there a no questions that shouldn't need to be answered because they are invalid as Matty has previous claimed Very good point!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, trousers said: What if my current position is that I've never given it any thought? Doesn't matter, you either currently believe a god(s) exist or you don't. If you haven't given it any thought then you don't currently hold a belief which makes you an atheist. If you don't claim knowledge then that further defines you as an agnostic atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Would also mean that there a no questions that shouldn't need to be answered because they are invalid as Matty has previous claimed 1 minute ago, egg said: Very good point!! You are both making things up now. 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: I've never claimed it applies to all questions. So it is bizarre you've twisted my words in such a way. Bizarre that your messed up logic only applies to what you want it to. Face it mate, you've tied yourself up in a few little knots here. We live in a non binary, faith based world. I put my faith tomorrow night in the players doing their best in winning, but I cannot say yes or know if they will. I don't know - neither yes nor no, but I have faith that they'll do their best and I hope that we'll win. If you're an English man, you'll share that hope and faith notwithstanding that you claim to not have faith. We all have hope and faith of some sort. All of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, egg said: Bizarre that your messed up logic only applies to what you want it to. Face it mate, you've tied yourself up in a few little knots here. We live in a non binary, faith based world. I put my faith tomorrow night in the players doing their best in winning, but I cannot say yes or know if they will. I don't know - neither yes nor no, but I have faith that they'll do their best and I hope that we'll win. If you're an English man, you'll share that hope and faith notwithstanding that you claim to not have faith. We all have hope and faith of some sort. All of us. Why are you conflating hope and faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Simple question for you @Matthew Le God, will England win tomorrow night? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Simple question for you @Matthew Le God, will England win tomorrow night? England men's football team play on Tuesday 😉 I don't know if they will win. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: They play on Tuesday 😉 Will England win on Tuesday night (shows how much attention I pay to International football!)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Doesn't matter, you either currently believe a god(s) exist or you don't I've never formed a belief either way so we'll have to disagree to disagree And your statement is untrue for people suffering from cognitive dissonance. They can believe in both at the same time, not just "either" Edited 27 June, 2021 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Weston Super Saint said: Will England win on Tuesday night (shows how much attention I pay to International football!)? I don't know 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, trousers said: I've never formed a belief either way so we'll have to disagree to disagree And your statement is untrue for people suffering from cognitive dissonance. They can believe in bott at the same time, not just "either" Lack of a belief is not a belief. You either believe a god exists or you do not currently believe a god exists. It is binary, one or the other. Edited 27 June, 2021 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: I don't know 🙂 So you are saying it is a definite no then, given that "don't know is a subset of 'no'" 33 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: 'Don't know' and 'don't give a shit' are subsets of 'no'. So the choice is therefore binary... Yes or No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Weston Super Saint said: So you are saying it is a definite no then, given that "don't know is a subset of 'no'" You have taken that post out of the context of what it was replying to. It was replying to a post about the belief in the existence or something, that is very different to asking about the result of a football match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: Lack of a belief is not a belief. You either believe a god exists or you do not currently believe a god exists. It is binary, one or the other. You could believe one god exists and another one doesn’t. What binary position is that motherfucker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said: You either believe a god exists or you do not currently believe a god exists. It is binary, one or the other. I disagree (And you just done what you accuse others of doing by avoiding the second part of my post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, whelk said: You could believe one god exists and another one doesn’t. What binary position is that motherfucker? The question would need to be worded as 'Do you believe a god or gods exist?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 Just now, Matthew Le God said: You have taken that post out of the context of what it was replying to. It was replying to a post about the belief in the existence or something, that is very different to asking about the result of a football match. Surely the result of a football match is the belief in the existence of something - namely that there will be a result in said football match! Or does your binary yes / no option only apply to certain situations, in which case, what are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, trousers said: I disagree (And you just done what you accuse others of doing by avoiding the second part of my post) Why do you disagree? I didn't avoid the image you posted. I said that lack of belief is not in itself a belief. So it is not contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 27 June, 2021 Share Posted 27 June, 2021 1 minute ago, Matthew Le God said: The question would need to be worded as 'Do you believe a god or gods exist?' Couldn't that question be answered "yes" (I believe a God exists) and also "no" (I don't believe that gods exist)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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